NO means NO

[irsha]

Irsha, you are making overgeneralisations: only a minority of muslims do as you are saying. Many of them just get on with their lives. Like moi.

Rape isn't correlated with religion. Victims maybe.

I am sorry if I gave that impression, I know most muslims just want to get on with their lives, but the point is, many muslims seem to be able to justify what they are doing by thinking they are following Islam, and when people say they are not following Islam, increasing numbers of them who do these things, say that they are.

 

[irsha]

Anyway, I think we have covered this topic, I hope most people now agree that it is wrong to make a woman justify anything if she gets raped.

 

[Umu 'Isa]

Yeah? well do a search on Australian gang rapes.

are you talking about the lebanese gang rapes in 2000? They never mentioned God's name! source although this was horrible and they said some sickening things... i am 3rd generation australian so this offends me greatly.. but i dont blame islam?

 

[hamzaa]

we can talk about people yelling, "Allahu Akbar" whilst doing something else, like killing the occupants of their country but thats another topic..

salaam, which occupants did you have in mind........?

 

[Umu 'Isa]

salaam, which occupants did you have in mind........?

it was just an example.. but theres always the israeli occupants of palestine...?

 

[hamzaa]

Of course Christians do wrong things, but it seems to be muslims who mostly are doing it while yelling Alluha akbar (I think thats how its spelled) Or doing it in Allah's name.

Peace, dear oh dear.......

 

[hamzaa]

it was just an example.. but theres always the israeli occupants of palestine...?

salaam, indeed and the rest....

 

[Cheb]

If you place such faith in that site, have a look at how disproportionate the level of corruption is in muslim countries? Makes you wonder about the figures they want us to see!
Anyway, this is an orchestrated attempt at diversion practiced by some members here that I have seen practice it before. The issue is whether a woman should ever have to be on trial for the way she acted when she is raped.

I assume you are talking about me. If you are, please address your comment directly to me to avoid confusion.
When I posted those statistics, they were a direct reply to Lush's request. You can accept or reject it, that is your choice. The issue when I joined was whether or not wearing modest clothes decreases rape, where was the diversion?
Well to address the 'real' issue, when a woman is raped, they do not simply take her word for it and punish the accused person. Rather, they put him on trial and a case is built against him in which all circumstances that lead to the rape are examined and put forth to the court. This is done all over the world not just Islamic countries. Since this is such a serious allegation, all circumstances must be taken into account in order to determine whether or not the sex was consensual or forced. If the woman was raped, there must be some kind of proof that she was actually raped. Think about it, some women do actually have certain things to gain from such accusations and may be dishonest. If a person is to be sentenced to death or given any other harsh punishment, there must be no reasonable doubt that he is guilty.

With all due respect, I will ignore the rest of your post.

 

[HeiGou]

Lol yeah, and it surprises me each timekay:.
I see what you're trying to say now. LOL. How is a woman anything like a car????????

Well cars need a lot of maintanence but on the other hand they don't talk back^H^H^H^HWhops, I mean, they are nothing alike at all.

No it isn't your fault, but if it's a rough neighbourhood then you're a little dim for parking it there.

But the blame lies entirely with the criminals right? None with me at all?

I would've though a woman's body, integrity and safety meant more to her than some stupid material posession so she should try to protect it more.

Perhaps. If that is what wearing the hijab does. Of course that logic leads to women never leaving the house.

 

[HeiGou]

All what you have written is a matter of opinion.

Well not really. It is an educated guess about what is going through the mind of those diplomats, but it is not opinion.

I have stated that those numbers can be used as evidence. Which means that if this case was to go to court, I would use that as evidence.

Which numbers? If I were a defense lawyer with nothing else to use, yes, I might use them too.

No it does not prove that what we are saying is true. And it will take a much more concentrated survey to know for sure whether or not wearing Hijab does reduce rape. However that will likely never be done and this matter will remain as a matter of opinion.

True except that I expect that as Muslim countries get richer and women become more and more educated, they will speak out more. I expect that for the rest of your life you will be hearing about how badly hijab works as a means of rape prevention.

 

[HeiGou]

are you talking about the lebanese gang rapes in 2000? They never mentioned God's name! source although this was horrible and they said some sickening things... i am 3rd generation australian so this offends me greatly.. but i dont blame islam?

From your own source "During the trial the text messages of one of the offenders, Bilal Skaf, were disclosed as containing sentiments such as "When you are feeling down ... bash a Christian or Catholic and lift up"."

It seems there was a little bit of a religious context, don't you think?

Some of the gang rapists have tried to use their Islamic culture as a defence.

And on top of it all everyone has this problem in the West now. Blacks are rioting over gang rapes in Birmingham, the French have gang rapes, so do the Norwegians and Swedes, Australia has them as well. There is one thing linking all these cases. Care to guess what it is? No? Not anything to do with the rapists religion perhaps? It may not be Islamic I will grant you, but there is a problem here with Muslim boys.

 

[Lush]

Rather, they put him on trial and a case is built against him in which all circumstances that lead to the rape are examined and put forth to the court.

Cheb, actually, most rape cases don't go to trial. They don't go to trial in the U.S.A., and I'm sure that even in Jordan they rarely see the inside of a court room (and I can only speak for Jordan here). What happens is that if there is overwhelming evidence against the accused, particularly DNA evidence (in this day and age, we're not talking about thirty years ago, obviously), he pleads guilty and does his time. A battered woman, with vaginal tearing, AND your DNA on her, makes a strong-enough case so that no sane lawyer would ever urge a trial. Case closed. No "circumstances that lead to the rape," and certainly no discussion of the way the woman acted, dressed, etc.

That's the beauty of science.

 

[Lush]

are you talking about the lebanese gang rapes in 2000? They never mentioned God's name! source although this was horrible and they said some sickening things... i am 3rd generation australian so this offends me greatly.. but i dont blame islam?

Well, obviously, we should not blame Islam.

But we should examine the superior attitude that was instilled in these men. The attitude that allowed them to act in this manner.

 

[Cheb]

Cheb, actually, most rape cases don't go to trial. They don't go to trial in the U.S.A., and I'm sure that even in Jordan they rarely see the inside of a court room (and I can only speak for Jordan here). What happens is that if there is overwhelming evidence against the accused, particularly DNA evidence (in this day and age, we're not talking about thirty years ago, obviously), he pleads guilty and does his time. A battered woman, with vaginal tearing, AND your DNA on her, makes a strong-enough case so that no sane lawyer would ever urge a trial. Case closed. No "circumstances that lead to the rape," and certainly no discussion of the way the woman acted, dressed, etc.

That's the beauty of science.

But I never said science should not be used, by all means why not. If there is circumstantial evidence that a rape has taken place, then one should be sentenced accordingly. If a man pleads guilty then that saves time and effort and there is no need for a trial. However, the evidence is not always as apparent as you stated. It is not always that easy. For example if it comes down to her word against his, and there is no physical evidence nor any evidence of a break in, then the case will go to court and the circumstances that led to the rape will be taken into account. I was not really talking about the open and shut cases.

 

[Cheb]

Well, obviously, we should not blame Islam.

But we should examine the superior attitude that was instilled in these men. The attitude that allowed them to act in this manner.

Who/what has instilled this attitude in them?

 

[Skillganon]

It may not be Islamic I will grant you, but there is a problem here with Muslim boys.

Let's do a word substitution.

It may not be Atheistic I will grant you, but there is a problem here with atheist boys.

 

[Ansar Al-'Adl]

Anyway, I think we have covered this topic

I agree that this thread has run its course and has gotten way off-topic.

Peace.

:threadclo