Eternal Heaven - Spiritual Form

dear pankaja

if god is a human like us, wht makes him the god i mean human make mistakes all the time, so for that u cant say that god is a human and i belive that god doesn't hav a form of a human wht os ever
 
Hello:)

God doesn't need to do what you said since His body is spiritual. (eternal). But He can if He wants to. Why are you trying to say human form is bad? Do you hate your own body so much?

I'm not saying the human form is bad. I am saying God is not human - but He did create us as humans. We as humans appreciate the body God gave us - we don't hate it. But He has already told us that He is not human.
Our concept of God doesnt involve Him being a human. We also believe He is eternal. One of the attributes/characteristics of Allah, is that He is "As-Samad" - meaning "The Eternal" - he always was, and he always will be.

It's only because of devotees of God we find out God even exists Well, what about the first person who was on Earth? How did they find out about God if there were no other 'devotees' at the time?
It is clearly not only because of devotees that we know God exists. If you look at trees, birds, humans, the miracle of life, etc, it would seem logical that these creations have a creator. Clearly, just looking at people worshipping God does not support the idea that God exists. There are other factors too which show us that God exists.

Unfortunately and I don't like to say this as it pains me, but there are many charlatan Guru's about
That's exactly what I am saying. Only God knows who is a true worshipper right? If i understood you correctly before, you said you worship these devotees too. So how can you worship these humans, who have faults, and who make mistakes? Isn't it true that only God is perfect? So it would make sense to worship God alone, doesn't it?

Thanks for your reply and I hope you can explain further,
Peace
 
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F.Y. said:
Hello:)

God doesn't need to do what you said since His body is spiritual. (eternal). But He can if He wants to. Why are you trying to say human form is bad? Do you hate your own body so much?

I'm not saying the human form is bad. I am saying God is not human - but He did create us as humans. We as humans appreciate the body God gave us - we don't hate it. But He has already told us that He is not human.
Our concept of God doesnt involve Him being a human. We also believe He is eternal. One of the attributes/characteristics of Allah, is that He is "As-Samad" - meaning "The Eternal" - he always was, and he always will be.

It's only because of devotees of God we find out God even exists Well, what about the first person who was on Earth? How did they find out about God if there were no other 'devotees' at the time?
It is clearly not only because of devotees that we know God exists. If you look at trees, birds, humans, the miracle of life, etc, it would seem logical that these creations have a creator. Clearly, just looking at people worshipping God does not support the idea that God exists. There are other factors too which show us that God exists.

Unfortunately and I don't like to say this as it pains me, but there are many charlatan Guru's about
That's exactly what I am saying. Only God knows who is a true worshipper right? If i understood you correctly before, you said you worship these devotees too. So how can you worship these humans, who have faults, and who make mistakes? Isn't it true that only God is perfect? So it would make sense to worship God alone, doesn't it?

Thanks for your reply and I hope you can explain further,
Peace
Click to expand...

We don't think the spiritual master to be God Himself. But it says when you please such a person God is more pleased. But the spiritual master always thinks Himself humble servant of God.
 
Hello again,


I would like to remind you of something you said in a previous post:
Supreme Person. Imagine a person as the Lord of all beings. That's your God conception right their. Over lord. Supreme being.

But now you say:

Pankaja dasa said:
We don't think the spiritual master to be God Himself. But it says when you please such a person God is more pleased. But the spiritual master always thinks Himself humble servant of God.
Click to expand...

These two statements above contradict each other. First you said God is supreme and most powerful and "Lord of all beings", but then you said He was not the "master".

Are you now implying that God's servants have more knowledge and power than almighty God Himself? Does this make sense to you? It doesn't make sense to me at all.
If I have understood you correctly, you seem to be saying that God is not all-powerful because you deny him to be the "master". You seem to be saying that His creation is more powerful than God Himself.
How can that be? Surely if God created his servants and the universe, He is all-powerful and the master of all things? Do you agree with this?

Of course, we are the humble servants of God. Everyone is a servant - we don't worship servants, we worship almighty God who created the servant. What you have said implies that God is not in control. The truth is, we are not in control of God - we are servants, He is in control of us and everything in the universe. Do you agree?

I know what you are saying when you say: when you please such a person God is more pleased. In Islam, we say that to help another person or to even smile at another person is an act of kindness and like an act of charity, and God is very pleased with this person.

I'd appreciate it if you could answer my queries.
Peace
 
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F.Y. said:
Hello again,


I would like to remind you of something you said in a previous post:
Supreme Person. Imagine a person as the Lord of all beings. That's your God conception right their. Over lord. Supreme being.

But now you say:



These two statements above contradict each other. First you said God is supreme and most powerful and "Lord of all beings", but then you said He was not the "master".

Are you now implying that God's servants have more knowledge and power than almighty God Himself? Does this make sense to you? It doesn't make sense to me at all.
If I have understood you correctly, you seem to be saying that God is not all-powerful because you deny him to be the "master". You seem to be saying that His creation is more powerful than God Himself.
How can that be? Surely if God created his servants and the universe, He is all-powerful and the master of all things? Do you agree with this?

Of course, we are the humble servants of God. Everyone is a servant - we don't worship servants, we worship almighty God who created the servant. What you have said implies that God is not in control. The truth is, we are not in control of God - we are servants, He is in control of us and everything in the universe. Do you agree?

I know what you are saying when you say: when you please such a person God is more pleased. In Islam, we say that to help another person or to even smile at another person is an act of kindness and like an act of charity, and God is very pleased with this person.

I'd appreciate it if you could answer my queries.
Peace
Click to expand...


Oh dear looks like you lost your commen sense. If it was not for Mohammed (pbuh) where would you have been?
 
Islamic Kuri said:
Whats ur point?
Click to expand...


What do you think my point is?

Your saying God is great, all-great. I never said He wasn't, but if it were not for His devotees where would everybody be? So we pay first respects to His devotee then God. It says in our scriptures this is the process.
 
Hello Pankaja dasa,
Thank you once again for replying to my posts and for asking about the Islamic view of God.

(The words in dark black are things you have said in your previous posts).

Your saying God is great, all-great. I never said He wasn't,

Actually you did say he wasn't great. Need I remind you? We don't think the spiritual master to be God Himself. Thats what you said - this implies you believe He is not all-great.

if it were not for His devotees where would everybody be? You mean....God's devotees are in control of this world? Did His devotees create the world and the human brain? I dont think so. I think you should be asking, "If it were not for God, where would everybody be?" - God, the all-mighty has given you life, not his devotees - it makes sense to be grateful to God - and not to other humans who, need I make it explicit, did not create the heavens or the Earth. Devotees are there to help remind us about our purpose in life and to encourage one another to do good deeds. They are not there to be worshipped as God themselves.

So we pay first respects to His devotee then God So you mean you worship humans first - who themselves are in great need of God, then God comes second? Doesn't it make sense to worship God alone, who created these "devotees", humans, in the first place? Why worship the creation (who themselves are full of faults and need God) when you should be worshipping the Creator?

Oh dear looks like you lost your commen sense. So, instead of engaging in constructive argument of ideas, you decide to attack the person? That isn't very productive, is it?

If it was not for Mohammed (pbuh) where would you have been? Thank you for asking this question and for enquriing about the Prophet Muhammad (pbuh). I sometimes ask myself the same question you did, as I think all Muslims do. Indeed, Muhammad (pbuh) was a mercy sent for all mankind. Not only for Arabs or Africans - but he was sent by God as a messenger, to convey the message of Islam and to tell people to worship One God, as did the Prophets before him, like Jesus (pbuh), David (pbuh), Moses (pbuh) and so on. The Prophets are not worshipped. They are human beings who came to teach about the Oneness of God. They are very special human beings, chosen by God to convey His message. Indeed, you are right. Without the example of the Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) to follow and knowledge of his actions, we would be in a state of darkness.

Thank you once again, for your prompt reply.
I look forward to hearing from you again.
Peace
 
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F.Y. said:
Hello Pankaja dasa,
Thank you once again for replying to my posts and for asking about the Islamic view of God.

(The words in dark black are things you have said in your previous posts).

Your saying God is great, all-great. I never said He wasn't,

Actually you did say he wasn't great. Need I remind you? We don't think the spiritual master to be God Himself. Thats what you said - this implies you believe He is not all-great.

if it were not for His devotees where would everybody be? You mean....God's devotees are in control of this world? Did His devotees create the world and the human brain? I dont think so. I think you should be asking, "If it were not for God, where would everybody be?" - God, the all-mighty has given you life, not his devotees - it makes sense to be grateful to God - and not to other humans who, need I make it explicit, did not create the heavens or the Earth. Devotees are there to help remind us about our purpose in life and to encourage one another to do good deeds. They are not there to be worshipped as God themselves.

So we pay first respects to His devotee then God So you mean you worship humans first - who themselves are in great need of God, then God comes second? Doesn't it make sense to worship God alone, who created these "devotees", humans, in the first place? Why worship the creation (who themselves are full of faults and need God) when you should be worshipping the Creator?

Oh dear looks like you lost your commen sense. So, instead of engaging in constructive argument of ideas, you decide to attack the person? That isn't very productive, is it?

If it was not for Mohammed (pbuh) where would you have been? Thank you for asking this question and for enquriing about the Prophet Muhammad (pbuh). I sometimes ask myself the same question you did, as I think all Muslims do. Indeed, Muhammad (pbuh) was a mercy sent for all mankind. Not only for Arabs or Africans - but he was sent by God as a messenger, to convey the message of Islam and to tell people to worship One God, as did the Prophets before him, like Jesus (pbuh), David (pbuh), Moses (pbuh) and so on. The Prophets are not worshipped. They are human beings who came to teach about the Oneness of God. They are very special human beings, chosen by God to convey His message. Indeed, you are right. Without the example of the Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) to follow and knowledge of his actions, we would be in a state of darkness.

Thank you once again, for your prompt reply.
I look forward to hearing from you again.
Peace
Click to expand...


Ah yes, I think what think is. You think God is all alone. His devotees are eternally with Him. So of cource they are dear to Him. We call these devotees Nitya-siddha (eternally liberated) but we are Nitya-baddha (eternally-conditioned). Sorry if I sound like I don't say much, I try not to think about it too much otherwise I will go on forever.
 
Pankaja dasa said:
Putting a limit on God is not religion at all. So this has been on my mind. I hope Muslims here can offer a nice reply.

Pankaja das
-
Click to expand...

Not a 'Muslim' but I'd like to take a shot at the title and this subject.

I view this in terms of 'Mirror-Mirror' which will probably confuse you, but let me explain. When you look in the mirror, which is the real you?

How do you answer this question? They are *both* you. One is merely a perfect reflection of the other... like your flesh and your soul.

Allah created form... and he is perfectly reflected in that form. We created the 'mirror' which is a 'form' we are perfectly reflected in.

Ninth Scribe
 
Ninth_Scribe said:
Not a 'Muslim' but I'd like to take a shot at the title and this subject.

I view this in terms of 'Mirror-Mirror' which will probably confuse you, but let me explain. When you look in the mirror, which is the real you?

How do you answer this question? They are *both* you. One is merely a perfect reflection of the other... like your flesh and your soul.

Allah created form... and he is perfectly reflected in that form. We created the 'mirror' which is a 'form' we are perfectly reflected in.

Ninth Scribe
Click to expand...

Yeah, in the Bible it says God made man in His image:)

Form is nice, but we die so we may think it's bad. But if we could be eternal then who would complain?
 
Salaam,

So Pankaja Dasa...
what you are saying is that

1) in yopur religion God can be a man....But in Islam we know Allah is not like his creation.

2) in your religion to learn about god you need to worship or revere some holy men and pray to them than to god..
In Islam we pray directly to Allah,no intermediary
We WORSHIP ALLAH..
we do not worship CREATION but worship the CREATOR..
 
Zulkiflim said:
Salaam,

So Pankaja Dasa...
what you are saying is that

1) in yopur religion God can be a man....But in Islam we know Allah is not like his creation.

2) in your religion to learn about god you need to worship or revere some holy men and pray to them than to god..
In Islam we pray directly to Allah,no intermediary
We WORSHIP ALLAH..
we do not worship CREATION but worship the CREATOR..
Click to expand...


sounds so much like us to tell you the truth....

in our religion true God is not like His creations the Bible makes it perfectly clear... God can do wonders, mericles and God is ABSOLUTELY perfect there is no flaw in Him... which is also what Jesus is...
to learn about God I need to read His Word and pray to Him. basically have a relationship..

we don't worship the creation we worship the Creator.. which you can say the Word Created us or you can say the Father God created us through His word
 
Zulkiflim said:
Salaam,

So Pankaja Dasa...
what you are saying is that

1) in yopur religion God can be a man....But in Islam we know Allah is not like his creation.

2) in your religion to learn about god you need to worship or revere some holy men and pray to them than to god..
In Islam we pray directly to Allah,no intermediary
We WORSHIP ALLAH..
we do not worship CREATION but worship the CREATOR..
Click to expand...

No, what we do is

1. Pray to Spiritual master
2. Pray to God

I will tell you the reason.

1. Our LINK with God is the spiritual master (who is pure, because He is serving God).
2. God likes His dear servants more, so when we please them He is MORE pleased. If we (in Hindisum etc) try to approach God in a direct way it is impossible.

So please do not misunderstand what I am saying. ;D

NB: Getting rid of the spiritual master leaves people to misrepresent scriptures. Then we try to think we can read Holy Books and understand from 'them' (whoever they are) they become the athorities, and before you you can say 'who stole my holy book'. Religion as we know it becomes degraded.
 
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Pankaja dasa said:
No, what we do is

1. Pray to Spiritual master
2. Pray to God

I will tell you the reason.

1. Our LINK with God is the spiritual master (who is pure, because He is serving God).
2. God likes His dear servants more, so when we please them He is MORE pleased. If we (in Hindisum etc) try to approach God in a direct way it is impossible.

So please do not misunderstand what I am saying. ;D

NB: Getting rid of the spiritual master leaves people to misrepresent scriptures. Then we try to think we can read Holy Books and understand from 'them' (whoever they are) they become the athorities, and before you you can say 'who stole my holy book'. Religion as we know it becomes degraded.
Click to expand...

Salaam,

No i dont think i misunderstood you

As you say clearly you pray to man thru god..
To pray to god you need an intercession....right..

Well i shall you that is YOUR religion..
And here is Islam..

We do not need an intermediary..we do not need an intercessor
We pray directly to ALLAH

As the Quran states,Allah is closer to us than the vein in our neck

16. And indeed We have created man, and We know what his ownself whispers to him. And We are nearer to him than his jugular vein (by Our Knowledge).
 
Zulkiflim said:
Salaam,

No i dont think i misunderstood you

As you say clearly you pray to man thru god..
To pray to god you need an intercession....right..

Well i shall you that is YOUR religion..
And here is Islam..

We do not need an intermediary..we do not need an intercessor
We pray directly to ALLAH

As the Quran states,Allah is closer to us than the vein in our neck

16. And indeed We have created man, and We know what his ownself whispers to him. And We are nearer to him than his jugular vein (by Our Knowledge).
Click to expand...


Okay.
 
What I don't understand is, you pray to Mohammed (PBUH). Because without Him you'd be nowhere. Yet you feel is it okay to pray directly to God?
 
Pankaja dasa said:
What I don't understand is, you pray to Mohammed (PBUH). Because without Him you'd be nowhere. Yet you feel is it okay to pray directly to God?
Click to expand...

we dnt pray to Muhammad (saw) :? :?

yes ofcourse it is okay to pray to Allah directly as the Prophet once said dat we shud pray for ourselves not go to sum1 else.....but dnt take it in a different way n think dat we r not allowed to ask any1 else to pray for us or anyfin....das different :)

:w:
 
Tagrid said:
we dnt pray to Muhammad (saw) :? :?

yes ofcourse it is okay to pray to Allah directly as the Prophet once said dat we shud pray for ourselves not go to sum1 else.....but dnt take it in a different way n think dat we r not allowed to ask any1 else to pray for us or anyfin....das different :)

:w:
Click to expand...

:thankyou: So you don't pray to Mohammed (PBUH). You pray to Allah.

I know in Islam history you used to pray to Phophets to gain favour of God. The point I am making is you pray to Mohammed to gain the favour of God.

I shud go as I donnu seem ble to get muc answer ere.
 
Your saying God is great, all-great. I never said He wasn't, but if it were not for His devotees where would everybody be? So we pay first respects to His devotee then God.
Click to expand...

Who created the Devotees?!?! :heated:
 

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