Is apostasy allowed in Islam?

[Genesis]

Neither the Qur'an nor Ahadith command to kill an apostate simply for being an apostate. Both give additional reasons why the Death penalty was permitted

In the situations mentioned in the Qur'an and Ahadith, the person not only left Islam, but actively engaged in war against Muslims. In other words engaged in acts of treason.

Is the Hadith really that clear in making the distinction about treason. The court that condemned that pregnant lady in Sudan to death for apostasy would have been more qualified than you. As would the court in Iran who condemned the Christian pastor. These are experts in the hadith making these rulings.

 

[Iceee]

The court that condemned that pregnant lady in Sudan to death for apostasy would have been more qualified than you. As would the court in Iran who condemned the Christian pastor.

Salaam.

Before we have any confusion, can you please give us your sources?

 

[greenhill]

The court that condemned that pregnant lady in Sudan to death for apostasy would have been more qualified than you. As would the court in Iran who condemned the Christian pastor.

As it is said, the religion is perfect but the people are not. What the latter Caliphates did that ultimately lead the Ottoman Empire to its decline was not islamic, but authority and power corrupts. They 'deviated' in their execution of duty. Does not in anyway prove anything.

These are experts in the hadith making these rulings.

Being an expert does not mean that they will be fair. Again these are human qualities, hence the need for the deen to put people on the right path. But ultimately the choice is the individuals.

Peace

 

[Genesis]

Salaam.

Before we have any confusion, can you please give us your sources?

Hello Iceee
If you research the cases of Youcef Nadarkhani and Meriam Yehya you will see what I refer to.

 

[Genesis]

As it is said, the religion is perfect but the people are not. What the latter Caliphates did that ultimately lead the Ottoman Empire to its decline was not islamic, but authority and power corrupts. They 'deviated' in their execution of duty. Does not in anyway prove anything.



Being an expert does not mean that they will be fair. Again these are human qualities, hence the need for the deen to put people on the right path. But ultimately the choice is the individuals.

Peace

With all due respect Greenhill but I think this is cop out. A convenient avoidance. It is the hadith that is creating this situation.

 

[Hulk]

Genesis you're merely committing an appeal to irrelevant authority fallacy, if you're just going to say "they are experts they know better than you" then no amount of intellectual explanation is going to be accepted by you. Ironically, you referred to Greenhill's post as a cop out.

 

[greenhill]

I have a friend who left Islam and was severely punished by his family and later disowned. Which is understandable, because which father will not want his son to take on his faith and values. but in some places that practice sharia law, an apostate can be punished even by death.

The key here is as per the original post above - "but in some places that practice syaria law..." not all places. And that is as a result of the interpretation of what they think the law is about. If all places practiced it then we do have a an issue, but it is not.

Peace

 

[greenhill]

I think this is cop out. A convenient avoidance. It is the hadith that is creating this situation.

Personally I don't think it is a cop out.

Convenient avoidance could be used for everything. From what I have read of the hadeeths, it is usually said in certain situations to clarify certain things or action observed by the people on the prophet's ways.

Collectively, the answers have come and it could be summarized by treason. But it seems that the examples cited are based on human judgements and perhaps even error.

In addition, there are many examples in history where leaders make their own decision based on their own agenda and it cannot be said that their subjects 'copped out', it is just that the were powerless to prevent it from happening.

I saw somewhere about Malaysia being cited with the 'camps' story. Several years ago there was a headline in the papers about a muslim girl who decided to become a Christian. She changed her name to Lina Joy. Her face splashed all across the papers and in the end, nothing happened to her, she was not lynched by a maddening crowd. No forced march into a camp etc. So, really people seem to be plucking out of context info just to prove a point that really does not exist. Or a mistake in the administrative policies of human (in implementing their judgement) and forget that these 'mistakes' are common throughout history and not just in the interpretation of islam.

Peace

 

[Genesis]

As it is said, the religion is perfect but the people are not. What the latter Caliphates did that ultimately lead the Ottoman Empire to its decline was not islamic, but authority and power corrupts. They 'deviated' in their execution of duty. Does not in anyway prove anything.



Being an expert does not mean that they will be fair. Again these are human qualities, hence the need for the deen to put people on the right path. But ultimately the choice is the individuals.

Peace

But Greenhill-
how can the religion be perfect with hadith like that?
You mention the later caliphates. But these issues existed also with the "Rightly Guided" early Caliphates.

 

[Genesis]

Personally I don't think it is a cop out.

Convenient avoidance could be used for everything. From what I have read of the hadeeths, it is usually said in certain situations to clarify certain things or action observed by the people on the prophet's ways.

Collectively, the answers have come and it could be summarized by treason. But it seems that the examples cited are based on human judgements and perhaps even error.

In addition, there are many examples in history where leaders make their own decision based on their own agenda and it cannot be said that their subjects 'copped out', it is just that the were powerless to prevent it from happening.

I saw somewhere about Malaysia being cited with the 'camps' story. Several years ago there was a headline in the papers about a muslim girl who decided to become a Christian. She changed her name to Lina Joy. Her face splashed all across the papers and in the end, nothing happened to her, she was not lynched by a maddening crowd. No forced march into a camp etc. So, really people seem to be plucking out of context info just to prove a point that really does not exist. Or a mistake in the administrative policies of human (in implementing their judgement) and forget that these 'mistakes' are common throughout history and not just in the interpretation of islam.

Peace

The aswers came from Islamic jurists in Sudan and Iran as well as they interpreted it as changing religion - not treason.
You say "plucking out of context information to make a point".The apostasy cases I mentioned actually happened - no plucking out of context in that.
If Islam is the perfect religion why do we have this problem with the hadith. Better not to have the hadith in the first place.

 

[Hulk]

The aswers came from Islamic jurists in Sudan and Iran as well as they interpreted it as changing religion - not treason.
You say "plucking out of context information to make a point".The apostasy cases I mentioned actually happened - no plucking out of context in that.
If Islam is the perfect religion why do we have this problem with the hadith. Better not to have the hadith in the first place.

As I said.. there's no point in explaining anything to you if you're just going to commit an appeal to irrelevant authority fallacy.

Also, yes Islam is perfect but that doesn't mean muslims are, that includes a muslim's understanding of Islam. A cookbook can be perfect, but it doesn't mean it's impossible for people who claim to follow it to end up with bad cooking.

 

[daveyats]

OK here is an example of violating your own words - I'm going to re-join this discussion by posting again but as I understand, Islam allows for such exceptions ;D (no offence intended)

but seriously, I'm just wish to summarize the responses received so far for comments:

Responses to supposed contradiction between Quran 2:256 and punishment for apostasy:

1. Muslims should be free to leave their faith. Those who support punishment for apostasy are subjecting the Koran to their own (wrongful?) interpretation. (greenhill, ardianto and hulk? believes this to be the case)
2. Muslims are not free to leave their faith. Only non-muslims should not be compelled to accept Islam. (FYI ISIS is compelling everyone to accept Islam)
3. Muslims are free to leave their faith in theory but in practice apostates must be punished because the law of the Islamic state needs to be upheld. Any apostasy to Islam will harm the Islamic State. The rule of Quran 2:256 can allow for such exceptions.
4. Muslims are not free to leave their faith but apostates can only be put to death if their apostasy involves treason
5. Muslims are not free to leave their faith. Apostates should be put to death.

6. Children born to a muslim family are born muslim. This is not a form of compulsion to accept Islam.
7. Children born to a muslim family are not born muslim. They are given a chance to personally accept Islam and all of them do so willingly.
(You can say that 6 and 7 is subject to the individuals interpretation of the faith)

Which is the correct interpretation? I'm sure no sane person will accept that there can exist both elephants in India and no elephants in India at the same time. Comments?

 

[ardianto]

1. Muslims should be free to leave their faith. Those who support punishment for apostasy are subjecting the Koran to their own (wrongful?) interpretation. (greenhill, ardianto and hulk? believes this to be the case)

I didn't say Muslims should be free to leave Islam. I just choose to not punish. If a Muslim told me that he wanted to leave Islam, of course I would try prevent him, but in soft manner. If he still leave Islam, I would not punish him, but I would show him that the door to back to Islam still opened.

Do you know?. There are people who left Islam, but finally came back to Islam. Like the famous Indonesian Navy admiral. He left Islam when he was young, and lived as non-Muslim for several decades, even became important figure for churches. But then he decided to back to Islam, just few years before he passed away.

My in-law neighbor left Islam when she was young. But her neighbor did not punish her. Then she married and had few children who later decided to embrace Islam when they were going adult. Now all of her children and grandchildren are Muslims.

Like I've said. Some people in my mother family are Christians. This was result of missionaries work in 19th century. But those who still Muslims did not punish them. And now let me tell you. In percentage, the Christians in my mother family have been reduced because there were among them who then decided to become Muslims, while there's no anyone among my family who leave Islam in the last few decades.

I understand if there are Muslims who disagree with my decision to not punish those who leave Islam. But it's because I believe that Islam is religion that "Rahmatin lil Alamin" (bless for the universe), and those who leave Islam actually those who are in confusion, or those who disappointed by Muslims (not disappointed by Islam). And it's my duty to still show them the beauty of Islam.

 

[Genesis]

As I said.. there's no point in explaining anything to you if you're just going to commit an appeal to irrelevant authority fallacy.

Also, yes Islam is perfect but that doesn't mean muslims are, that includes a muslim's understanding of Islam. A cookbook can be perfect, but it doesn't mean it's impossible for people who claim to follow it to end up with bad cooking.

Hello Hulk
I disagree. We've been discussing whether the hadith is about treason or simply changing ones religion. And my point being that Islamic jurors in the Sudan and Iran have interpreted the hadith as ordering death for a change of religion. Therefore a legal precedent has been set by specialists in the field. I wouldn't call this irrelevant authority.


In terms of Islam being perfect. Do you think the relevant hadith about apostasy is perfect ?

 

[ardianto]

Hello Hulk
I disagree. We've been discussing whether the hadith is about treason or simply changing ones religion. And my point being that Islamic jurors in the Sudan and Iran have interpreted the hadith as ordering death for a change of religion. Therefore a legal precedent has been set by specialists in the field. I wouldn't call this irrelevant authority.


In terms of Islam being perfect. Do you think the relevant hadith about apostasy is perfect ?

In early of 2000's Muslim scholars in my place demanded govt to arrest and give death penalty to someone who committed over-limit blasphemy toward Islam. But that man already left Indonesia. However, I never heard Muslim scholars in my place demanded govt to arrest and give death penalty to those who left Islam.

My stance toward those who left Islam actually is common stance of Muslims in my place. And we have reason for this stance. If Sudan and Iran gave death penalty to apostates, it's because they have reason too which we don't really know.

Genesis, there are many Muslims in the world, and you cannot make stereotype of the whole Muslims just based on some Muslims.

 

[Hulk]

Hello Hulk
I disagree. We've been discussing whether the hadith is about treason or simply changing ones religion. And my point being that Islamic jurors in the Sudan and Iran have interpreted the hadith as ordering death for a change of religion. Therefore a legal precedent has been set by specialists in the field. I wouldn't call this irrelevant authority.

In terms of Islam being perfect. Do you think the relevant hadith about apostasy is perfect ?

It is an appeal to irrelevant authority. For one thing, you're resorting to bringing them up instead of addressing the proper responses given. You're also expecting us to accept them as an authoritative figure on the matter. It's like we're here explaining to you 1+1+1=3 and you're responding by saying "no it's 1 because a math teacher i saw on the news said so".

Yes Islam is perfect. I will not be entertaining your question "Do you think the relevant hadith about apostasy is perfect?" as it is inconsequential to the discussion.

 

[Hulk]

Responses to supposed contradiction between Quran 2:256 and punishment for apostasy:

1. Muslims should be free to leave their faith. Those who support punishment for apostasy are subjecting the Koran to their own (wrongful?) interpretation. (greenhill, ardianto and hulk? believes this to be the case)
2. Muslims are not free to leave their faith. Only non-muslims should not be compelled to accept Islam. (FYI ISIS is compelling everyone to accept Islam)
3. Muslims are free to leave their faith in theory but in practice apostates must be punished because the law of the Islamic state needs to be upheld. Any apostasy to Islam will harm the Islamic State. The rule of Quran 2:256 can allow for such exceptions.
4. Muslims are not free to leave their faith but apostates can only be put to death if their apostasy involves treason
5. Muslims are not free to leave their faith. Apostates should be put to death.
6. Children born to a muslim family are born muslim. This is not a form of compulsion to accept Islam.
7. Children born to a muslim family are not born muslim. They are given a chance to personally accept Islam and all of them do so willingly.
(You can say that 6 and 7 is subject to the individuals interpretation of the faith)

Which is the correct interpretation? I'm sure no sane person will accept that there can exist both elephants in India and no elephants in India at the same time. Comments?

What exactly are you trying to say? Seems that what you're trying to present is just a false dichotomy. If you feel there is a contradiction then point it out specifically. Likening the list to saying "I believe there are no elephants in india and that there are elephants in india at the same time" is a faulty comparison unless you can prove that it's similar.

 

[MuslimInshallah]

Hello Daveyats and Genesis,


I have read your posts with someinterest. I welcome your comments, and I hope that you may find my small comments to be of some use to you. And I hope that they may also be of some use to the Muslims out there who sincerely want to Please our Lord, and are seeking Light on this question.


The first and most important point thatI would like to bring to your attention is that when evaluating a position in Islam, we look FIRST to the Qur'an, and then to the ahadith (plural of hadith). If, as in this case, there are veryclear passages in the Qur'an that support the freedom of choice in a person's deen (way of life), versus an ambiguous and weak hadith (even if it is in Sahih al-Bukhari) that is open to a wide amount of interpretation, the Qur'an trumps every time. Actually, in the Prophet's (PBUH) time, when the Prophet (PBUH) said or did something that God Knew was incorrect, He would Correct him. God's Word always trumps the Prophet's. You have quoted Al-Baqarah 2:256 extensively. But let me recommend the following verses: An-Nisa 4:137 Those who believe, then disbelieve, then believe again, then disbelieve,and then increase in their disbelief - Allah will never forgive them nor guide them to the path. And Al-Kahf 18:29. Let him who wishes to believe, do so; and let him who wishes todisbelieve, do so.


Actually,frankly, I would recommend that you read the Qur'an in it's entirety.It talks about “belief” and “disbelief” (I somewhat disagree with these simplistic translations of the verbs aamana and kafara) throughout its length. The context of the Qur'an should help youunderstand what God is actually saying. These snippets we quote can be misunderstood. I suggest Yahya Emerick's translation. It has many footnotes with a lot of historical information giving the verses context. Muhammad Asad's translation is very heartfelt, too, though sometimes perhaps a little mystical at times. But always recall, that the translations are flawed and pale compared with the beauty and breadth of the original.


Secondly, deen does not mean religion.It means the Way you have chosen in your life. Do you chose to struggle towards God and try to know His Will and Please Him? Or do you not? We all have our deen, including atheists. And we all choose it freely. It is an inner state of being, of our relationship with God. We humans are rather obsessed with our labels and religious decorations. God is Interested in our Hearts. And as He is the Judge, we must refrain from taking on His Domain.


Thirdly, for those that are interested,the hadith in question is available in English at searchtruth.com (sorry, I can't put the full link in; as I am new here, I'm not permitted to do so). It is in Sahih al Bukhari Book 84, number 57. The translation is flawed, though. For instance, the word deen has been translated as Islamic Religion, and this is clearly incorrect.You may find other ahadith on apostasy which you might find supports what you presently wish to believe. I would recommend, however, for the one who seeks the best, that you check al-Bukhari Book 83, hadith37. It may help you understand why many scholars feel that the punishment of death for apostasy is limited to those who are involved with a serious crime against the community of Muslims. The reality is, that there are many ahadith out there, of varying quality, and in order to come to as serious a decision as the taking of a human life,one should be well-versed in the field.


Fourthly, there are many cases of people in the time of the Prophet (PBUH) who left Islam. And returned and left, perhaps, again. The majority were NOT killed. Those that were, were under specific circumstances. Unfortunately, I don't have the time or space to go into these cases fully. Yahya Emerick discusses this point in his commentary on the Qur'an.


And finally, if anyone wants a clear explanation of this particular question by a scholar, I would suggest the following (again, I can't post the link. Google "hadith" and "apostate" and you should see the following: Is Killing An Apostate in the Islamic Law?). I drew a lot on this text for my discussion here.

May God Guide us and Help us Find the Light. And only God truly Knows.

 

[daveyats]

What exactly are you trying to say? Seems that what you're trying to present is just a false dichotomy. If you feel there is a contradiction then point it out specifically. Likening the list to saying "I believe there are no elephants in india and that there are elephants in india at the same time" is a faulty comparison unless you can prove that it's similar.

I'm merely pointing out that on a subject like this, which i presume should be an important one, there exist just within this community a number of views. Some of which directly contradict the other. I'm simply asking a question - which is the correct interpretation? I've asked that in my post but you might have missed that?

If truth is absolute, this question should be asked. Muslims believe in absolute truths because you believe absolutely that Allah is the true God. So why is there an inability to be absolute about this subject? The other problem I see, if statement no.2 is true (refer back to my post), why is there seemingly so little concern to teach it and make sure truth is propagated...why have 100s left the UK to join ISIS? did they not know that their version of truth is wrong?

Ardianto's response is the most interesting to me because you (Ardianto) seem to be saying that apostates ought to be punished but you choose not to because there is a higher law or virtue. And that higher law or virtue is... mercy? I don't know if you learnt that from the Koran, instinctively or from some place else. Does the Koran tell you that mercy is a higher virtue than justice?

 

[Woodrow]

Hello Iceee
If you research the cases of Youcef Nadarkhani and Meriam Yehya you will see what I refer to.

Working backwards. I will get to your earlier post shortly.

While Youcef Nadarkhani was arrested in Iran, which is Shi'a they do not follow neither any recognized Madhab of shariah not the same collections of Ahadith as recognised by Sunni.



Additionally his actually charges were rape and "Crimes against the Government" the media stressed the fact he was an apostate but that is not what Iran charged him with

Iranian pastor faces death for rape, not apostasy - report

Washington (CNN) -- Christian Pastor Youcef Nadarkhani will be put to death for several charges of rape and extortion, charges that differ greatly from his original sentence of apostasy, Iran's semi-official Fars News agency reported Friday.

Gholomali Rezvani, the deputy governor of Gilan province, where Nadarkhani was tried and convicted, accused Western media of twisting the real story, referring to him as a "rapist." A previous report from the news agency claimed he had committed several violent crimes, including repeated rape and extortion.

"His crime is not, as some claim, converting others to Christianity," Rezvani told Fars. "He is guilty of security-related crimes."

SOURCE


As for Merriam Yehya Ibrahim The Charge she was charged with was "Adultery: that is what she got the death penalty for. Although during her trial it was brought out she was an apostate. but that is not what she got the death penalty for.

It also appears she was tried in a Sudanese court, not a Sharia court

Ibrahim was arrested in August after Muslim relatives charged her with adultery for marrying a Christian man,

SOURCE