Paris Shooting

[Abz2000]

You build an understanding in people when you define moderates as those who proclaim half of the truth and extremists as those who proclaim the complete truth.
Naturally, out of defensiveness, each conflicting side will shy into the extremeties of their differences and will magnify the galvanising points - unless they are able to look at it frome a wider perspective and justly proclaim the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

But then, if you accuse them too of being "extreme" simply because they espouse the whole truth, those with street-wise and inquisitive minds who bother to do some research will come to a clearer understanding of the situation and see you as a deceiver, and will be willing to fight you for their convictions.

That is the situation that the deluded kafir political and media establishment is currently creating, and the munafiqs and people pleasers slithering amongst the ranks of the believers are also helping.

When you use tools such as "prevent" to bribe/coerce mosque leaders to go on an anti-jihad crusade - while you abuse the biggest military industrial complex on the planet to terrorize people whilst preaching disbelief in the plain truth and non-violence.
The youth just wisen-up and those with dignity wake up.

Karma's not necessarily a b*tch since God's grace is abundant for those who seek it.

Either way, the truth marches on.

I have seen Him in the watch-fires of a hundred circling camps,
They have builded Him an altar in the evening dews and damps;
I can read His righteous sentence in the dim and flaring lamps:
His day is marching on.

(Chorus)Glory, glory, hallelujah!
Glory, glory, hallelujah!
Glory, glory, hallelujah!
His day is marching on.



I have read a fiery*gospel*writ in burnished rows of steel:
"As ye deal with my contemners, so with you my grace shall deal";
Let the Hero, born of woman, crush*the serpent*with his heel,
Since God is marching on.

(Chorus)Glory, glory, hallelujah!
Glory, glory, hallelujah!
Glory, glory, hallelujah!
Since God is marching on.

He has sounded forth the trumpet that shall never call retreat;
He is sifting out the hearts of men before His judgment-seat:
Oh, be swift, my soul, to answer Him! be jubilant, my feet!
Our God is marching on.

Rouhani and obama:

And there is no god except the Creator of the heavens and the earth, to whom we shall all one day return.

Doublethink*is the act of ordinary people simultaneously accepting two mutually contradictory beliefs as correct, often in distinct*social contexts.[1]

*Doublethink is related to, but differs from,*hypocrisy*and*neutrality.
Somewhat related but almost the opposite is*cognitive dissonance, where contradictory beliefs cause conflict in one's mind.
Doublethink is notable due to a lack of cognitive dissonance — thus the person is completely unaware of any conflict or contradiction.

George Orwell*coined the word*doublethink*in his*dystopian*novel*Nineteen Eighty-Four*(1949);
doublethink is part of*newspeak.
In the novel, its origin within the typical citizen is unclear; while it could be partly a product of*Big Brother's formal*brainwashing*programmes,[2]*

The novel explicitly shows people learning Doublethink and*newspeak*due to*peer pressure*and a desire to "fit in", or gain status within the Party — to be seen as a loyal Party Member.
In the novel, for someone to even recognize–let alone mention–any contradiction within the context of the Party line was akin to*blasphemy, and could subject that someone to possible disciplinary action and to the instant social disapproval of fellow Party Members.

"In spite of that awful work?"
"Awful?*They*don't find it so. On the contrary, they like it.
It's light, it's childishly simple. No strain on the mind or the muscles. Seven and a half hours of mild, unexhausting labour, and then the*soma*ration and games and unrestricted copulation and the feelies. What more can they ask for?*.....

....."I was wondering," said the Savage, "why you had them (epsilon semi-morons) at all–seeing that you can get whatever you want out of those bottles.
Why don't you make everybody an Alpha Double Plus while you're about it?"
Mustapha Mond laughed. "Because we have no wish to have our throats cut," he answered. "We believe in happiness and stability. A society of Alphas couldn't fail to be unstable and miserable.
Imagine a factory staffed by Alphas–that is to say by separate and unrelated individuals of good heredity and conditioned so as to be capable (within limits) of making a free choice and assuming responsibilities. Imagine it!" he repeated.
The Savage tried to imagine it, not very successfully.
"It's an absurdity. An Alpha-decanted, Alpha-conditioned man would go mad if he had to do Epsilon Semi-Moron work–go mad, or start smashing things up. Alphas can be completely socialized–but only on condition that you make them do Alpha work.
Only an Epsilon can be expected to make Epsilon sacrifices, for the good reason that for him they aren't sacrifices; they're the line of least resistance. His conditioning has laid down rails along which he's got to run. He can't help himself; he's foredoomed. Even after decanting, he's still inside a bottle–an invisible bottle of infantile and embryonic fixations.

Each one of us, of course," the Controller meditatively continued, "goes through life inside a bottle.
But if we happen to be Alphas, our bottles are, relatively speaking, enormous. We should suffer acutely if we were confined in a narrower space. You cannot pour upper-caste champagne-surrogate into lower-caste bottles. It's obvious theoretically. But it has also been proved in actual practice. The result of the Cyprus experiment was convincing."


..... Science is dangerous; we have to keep it most carefully chained and muzzled."
"What?" said Helmholtz, in astonishment. "But we're always saying that science is everything. It's a hypnopædic platitude."
"Three times a week between thirteen and seventeen," put in Bernard.

"And all the science propaganda we do at the College ....
…""Yes; but what sort of science?" asked Mustapha Mond sarcastically. "You've had no scientific training, so you can't judge. I was a pretty good physicist in my time. Too good–good enough to realize that all our science is just a cookery book, with an orthodox theory of cooking that nobody's allowed to question, and a list of recipes that mustn't be added to except by special permission from the head cook.
I'm the head cook now. But I was an inquisitive young scullion once.
I started doing a bit of cooking on my own. Unorthodox cooking, illicit cooking.
A bit of real science, in fact." He was silent.
"What happened?" asked Helmholtz Watson.
The Controller sighed. "Very nearly what's going to happen to you young men. I was on the point of being sent to an island."

The words galvanized Bernard into violent and unseemly activity.
"Send*me*to an island?"
He jumped up, ran across the room, and stood gesticulating in front of the Controller. "You can't send*me. I haven't done anything. lt was the others. I swear it was the others."
He pointed accusingly to Helmholtz and the Savage. "Oh, please don't send me to Iceland. I promise I'll do what I ought to do. Give me another chance. Please give me another chance."
The tears began to flow. "I tell you, it's their fault," he sobbed. "And not to Iceland. Oh please, your fordship, please …" And in a paroxysm of abjection he threw himself on his knees before the Controller.
Mustapha Mond tried to make him get up; but Bernard persisted in his grovelling; the stream of words poured out inexhaustibly.
In the end the Controller had to ring for his fourth secretary."Bring three men," he ordered, "and take Mr. Marx into a bedroom. Give him a good*soma*vaporization and then put him to bed and leave him."The fourth secretary went out and returned with three green-uniformed twin footmen. Still shouting and sobbing. Bernard was carried out.

"One would think he was going to have his throat cut," said the Controller, as the door closed.
"Whereas, if he had the smallest sense, he'd understand that his punishment is really a reward. He's being sent to an island. That's to say, he's being sent to a place where he'll meet the most interesting set of men and women to be found anywhere in the world. All the people who, for one reason or another, have got too self-consciously individual to fit into community-life. All the people who aren't satisfied with orthodoxy, who've got independent ideas of their own. Every one, in a word, who's any one. I almost envy you, Mr. Watson."

Seems some people aren't willing to live a narrow life of pretend and deceit. Have you ever sat and wondered why they would leave materially comfortable lives in countries others are desperately trying to reach because of currency value?

Have you ever wondered why they're willing to risk their lives in the wilderness?
Is it just because of their willingness to conform with anything they are told by anyone?
Rather we find that most of them led rebellous lives and had checkered pasts, so why the sudden willingness to conform to the death when necessary?
Or is it because they put things in the correct perspective and can't be contained and subjugated by false laws made by men whom they see as equal to or worse than themselves, but once they see the truth, and being street-wise, willingly submit to the authority of God Whom they realise is just, fair and beyond flouting?
They risk much in anticipation of high rewards.

Are they stupid or are they wiser than their secular counterparts?

The 3,000 American soldiers President Obama has sent back into Iraq are to start training the remaining 26 brigades of the Iraqi Army all over again, without anybody asking what went wrong between 2003 and 2014.

Why is it that Isis recruits can fight effectively after two weeks' military training and two weeks' religious instruction, but the Iraqi Army cannot? Maybe the very fact of being foreign-trained delegitimises them in their own eyes and that of their people.

http://www.independent.co.uk/voices/comment/war-with-isis-the-west-needs-more-than-a-white-knight-9946580.html

Or maybe there's more than meets the eye.

"Only those of His servants with*knowledge have*fear*of*Allah.*Allah*is Almighty, Ever-Forgiving."
(Qur'an*35:28).

 

[gurufabbes]

Finally, why is it that we must get on TV and condemn these terrorist attacks? It's almost as if if we do not condemn these acts publicly and reassure the non-Muslims we aren't all AK-47 toting extremists then we are probably just that!

We live in a world full of injustice and hypocrisy. Did any Christians get on TV and assert that they aren't all terrorists after what Anders Breivik did? No, they did not. And what he did was far worse - killing mostly teens and 60+ of them.

I think the point is simple. The Muslims are a minority in Europe that has mostly recently arrived, and are disproportionately involved in problems.

Hence when something like this happens, again and again, people wish to know why? Why do the other religious groups not do this? Is it their religion itself? Is it inherently violent?

Given that, you may say Muslim leaders shouldn't feel the need to condemn, but I would suggest they do, given that it's your image that stands to be damaged.

 

[Abz2000]

Given that, you may say Muslim leaders shouldn't feel the need to condemn, but I would suggest they do, given that it's your image that stands to be damaged.

In order to put it into the proper proportion and context, they'd first need to condemn themselves for not having done their best to establish Islam, the french government for not establishing the Law of God as revealed to His final Messenger, then the cartoonists for commiting blasphemy worthy of capital punishment, and then the french public for not condemning the blaspheming cartoonists, then accept that the cartoonists received justice according to God's Law.
It were better for them had they all repented.

 

[gurufabbes]

In order to put it into the proper proportion and context

More like your personal context, rather than one that I think non-Muslims recognize or adhere to.

the french public for not condemning the blaspheming cartoonists, then accept that the cartoonists received justice according to God's Law.

Well, that is one strong opinion. One again, that is odds with beliefs of those beyond your circle, I assume.
Probably the same kind of people to claim to know Gd's will and how it should be applied with vigilante justice. The ones that perhaps believe that Islamic cultural norms apply to non-Muslims and should be imposed if need be.

Anyway, as long as people like you don't live in my neighbourhood, I encourage you to have any views that you would like.

 

[ardianto]

Given that, you may say Muslim leaders shouldn't feel the need to condemn, but I would suggest they do, given that it's your image that stands to be damaged.

If your son doing mischief and disturbing the neighbors, would you go to the streets and shout "I condemn my son mischief!". Or you would choose another way, scold your son and advise him to stop his delinquency and then become a better boy?.

I am sure, you would choose the second way.

The cause why Muslim leaders look like less doing in condemn terrorism is because those terrorists are Muslims, and condemn them on the street is not effective way. So Muslim leaders choose to try to make them leave their extreme view and become the tolerant Muslims.

There are many things that Muslim leaders have done to counter terrorism, such as teaching tolerance to the school children and other young Muslims, make de-radicalization program for terrorists who arrested. However, what the Muslim leader are doing get less attention from medias. So the world don't know about it.

 

[Pygoscelis]

In order to put it into the proper proportion and context, they'd first need to condemn themselves for not having done their best to establish Islam, the french government for not establishing the Law of God as revealed to His final Messenger, then the cartoonists for commiting blasphemy worthy of capital punishment, and then the french public for not condemning the blaspheming cartoonists, then accept that the cartoonists received justice according to God's Law.
It were better for them had they all repented.

Hmm. This again. France is not an Islamic country. The people there (most of them anyway) are not Muslims. They see your God as imaginary. They don't feel compelled to obey or conform to your imagination.

This is not an Islamic country we are talking about. If you want to go to this country, it is their norms that will need to be followed, not yours. If you can't tolerate that, then simply don't go there. Simple really. Your text above is the equivalent of a gay nudist going to Saudi Arabia and saying everybody needs to be walking naked in the street and having gay pride parades.

 

[Pygoscelis]

The cause why Muslim leaders look like less doing in condemn terrorism is because those terrorists are Muslims, and condemn them on the street is not effective way. So Muslim leaders choose to try to make them leave their extreme view and become the tolerant Muslims.

But are terrorist Muslims really Muslims? I think that is the point. To distinguish what tolerant muslims feels is actual Islam from what terrorist Muslims push and claim to be Islam.

 

[The-Deist]

But are terrorist Muslims really Muslims? I think that is the point. To distinguish what tolerant muslims feels is actual Islam from what terrorist Muslims push and claim to be Islam.

Islam is perfect we human beings or creation arent
Brother May you be guided
Aameen

 

[ardianto]

But are terrorist Muslims really Muslims? I think that is the point. To distinguish what tolerant muslims feels is actual Islam from what terrorist Muslims push and claim to be Islam.

Muslims who commit terrorism and kill innocent people are still Muslims. But what they do is against the Islamic teaching itself. So, it's a duty of other Muslims to guide those terrorist to leave their violence action and back to the right way.

 

[LearnIslam]

I don't remember saying the meddling of the West is the sole reason for the political unrest in the Mid-East although they have contributed to it. You can throw in Saudi, Iran and Russia into the quagmire to name a few. Saudi in particular have been causing having causing havoc internally.



No sure what you are reffering to.




That is not the problem. The problem may arise in how you deal with those that disagree with you. Extremists in both sides, Muslims and Non-Muslims, tend to take extreme measures. Extremists on the Muslim side have killed more Muslims then they have non-Muslims.

Please understand all this label of 'Muslim' and 'non-Muslim' are based on you, for the Creator it is not that way. Someone can call themselves a Muslim, but you will deny they are a Muslim based on their lifestyle. Likewise, someone can reject you are a Muslim. I am talking about the Muslim heartland - its troubles are caused by weak leadership. It is not about saying something here that is politically correct.

All these rules they are making, are not even Islamic, regarding restraining women, or the human thought process for example. I have a complete understanding of what is happening, I am not in ignorance of it. And I am not blaming Muslims either. But most faithful Muslims are unfortunately supporting the very monster that is destroying them.

What do we know of the Creator or His will? Yet, see the level of arms and weapons that are raised over there in the Middle East. The world sees this and judges Muslims, it sees the lack of free thought and judges Muslims, it sees how quickly offended groups become and provoke Muslims. Remember the Charlie Hebdo incident was an example of this. Now there are protests all over the world over it.

These are NOT your issues. You know the message of the prophet and what he stood for.

You are free to express yourself anywhere but not with Impunity; not even in the West.

The issues of the past, or of the British rule over the Indians for instance, the treasures stolen are again not the issues. Have you seen in school how the child that is odd is teased the most, despite it hurting him? This is what Europe is trying with Muslims. They are provoking them into the image they want to portray of them.

I don't see how your being objective if you called me biased purely for speaking against the Western Goverment.

The wise man stays out of harms way. We can talk reams and reams of the Western governments. They have a different code of morality.

I didn't say I think it's a lie.

So you are telling me the Germans and French are right in thinking that Islam wants to take over their countries?

I would be happy for them.

You would be happy for them because it strengthens the legacy you have come to associate with. If the Muslim world became Christian, many people in the West would be happy for the same reason. But neither of this is noble - that we look at the worst in another culture, and call it the standard of it, and then patronize and insult them, giving them our reasons to change. So in short, spreading the word of the Creator is important, but not in the manner of conquest. Those who conquest, do their work of setting their rules (even if claim it to be the Creator's, its still their interpretation!).

Every culture claims to have received the absolute truth.

Depends on what is being classified as "Bad".

Would you say bad things to a boy about his father because of his father's few habits, or phase of madness?

If you are using the worst aspects of the West to give them reason to convert to Islam you are doing this. Because you expect to shun their legacy and enrich your own in their country. Western ideals aren't first western. The Islamic world wasn't always like this - the process of thought has existed in its good form in the West and the Muslim world, at different times. Ask yourself from your own learning if you think it is the will of the Creator to have these imams preach the way they do, to have the Muslim leadership the way it is. Is it the will of our Creator to go disturb the people in other countries by telling them to change their way of life? This is like telling bad things about the boy's father to him, and turning him as your son. It is not right, for your enemies are telling bad things about you as well - taking from the worst that is happening in the Muslim world.

I am not against any peoples of the world. That is against the will of the Creator.

I don't know what you are reffering to.

It's important to remember the world didn't begin last Month. Blame for our current problem with extremism can be attributed to leaders in both Muslim and Non-Muslim countries.

My posts aren't to bring blame. Neither are those 'Muslim' leaders carrying the actual signature of the Creator's message to the Arabs. The Creator doesn't like someone who uses His name for their vain ends.

In this bad leadership, the Muslims call upon powers like the Americans to help them. The Americans seek to establish what governance will be convenient for them to do trade in oil. Their values are different, so Muslims start hating them. You see this problem is like a drunk man, who beat his wife and children. A neighbor came in and tied the drunk man up and the woman and children were happy to have received such help. But the neighbor stayed in the house, and started demanding things, he started insulting the children and the wife for their poor choice of a husband, father etc.

 

[BeTheChange]

wow...i haven't logged in for a couple of days and this thread is still hot with many new posts! Can't keep up...:embarrass

 

[Abz2000]

Look pygo, i see through your false constructs of national division based on racism - while at the same time attacking ideology, it doesn't hold water.
If it was about nationalism (racism), then it would have been better that you said, all humans are of a different composition due to race, let each live with his own race.
If it had been about ideology, i would have understood your form of thinking if you said - let the kuffar (unrepentant criminals by God's Law) live among kuffar and let those repentant Law abiding citizens who accept the universal Law of their Creator live among the believers without invading each other's sovereignty.

But you and i both know that it's ultimately God who is the controller of affairs in this universe which is why you seem to be content with an undefined state of anarchy where oppression by kuffar is ignored and believers' lives are in a state of continuous instability.
Even after i moved thousands of miles away you still harrassed me and have used shills to attempt to cause chaos when things were going smoothly.
Maybe it's because in your heart of hearts you know the truth but attempt to suppress and cover it with adorned deception.
One of the meanings of the term "kufr" is - to cover.

I warn you of severe consequences for your anarchy in God's dominion.

I recall a dialogue between the final Messenger of God to mankind and a greedy liar who attempted a rule of deceit, tve exchange between them speaks volumes.

Our narration takes place when Haroun, better known as Musailama, chieftain of the Christian tribe of Hanifa laid claim to the prophethood.
Many of his tribe had recently embraced Islam, however, it became apparent that all was not well amongst the tribe when Musailamah sent a letter to Prophet Muhammad, praise and peace be upon him, that falsely proclaimed he too was a prophet.
The letter read:
From: Musailamah, the Messenger of Allah
To: Muhammad, the Messenger of Allah,
Peace be upon you. I have been given the power to share your authority.
Half of the earth is ours, and half belongs to the Koraysh, even though they are sinners."

Having read the letter, the Prophet, praise and peace be upon him, asked its bearers if this was also their opinion and they affirmed that it was.
Then the Prophet, praise and peace be upon him, spoke saying, "By Allah, if it was not forbidden for envoys be put to death, I would indeed sever your heads!"
The Prophet, praise and peace be upon him, called for his scribe and dictated a letter for the envoys to deliver to Musailamah.
He commenced: From: Muhammad, the Messenger of Allah
To: Musailamah, the liar.
Peace be upon he who follows guidance. Indeed, the earth belongs to Allah.
He causes whom He will of His worshipers to inherit it.
Only those who fear their Lord will prosper.

The dominion, soverignty and right to Legislate is God's. Be a good and repentant Law abiding Citizen on God's earth- or suffer the consequences of your criminal actions.

Warning 3 of 3: remove the obstacle or the bannister's gonna rot - time is of the essence.

 

[Pygoscelis]

But you and i both know that it's ultimately God who is the controller of affairs in this universe

No. You and I do not both know that. You believe that. I believe your God is imaginary. Can you see that? Can you accept it?

For the sake of peaceful co-existence, I can try to understand how you see things and try to meet you on that level. I can see how dear these beliefs are to you, so I can try to tread lightly and be respectful of what I see as your delusion. It is clearly important to people of faith, giving sense of purpose and support to many people, so I see no reason to trample on it, until it becomes militant. But that doesn't mean I in any way believe it myself.

I wonder if you can understand that those of us who are not Muslim, honestly and truly do not believe your Allah is real. To us, Islam is something you learned from culture, parents, or community. You can think us wrong, blind, oblivious to what you see as obvious truth, or whatever, but do you at least realize that we really think this?

I truly wonder sometimes if you, and other devoutly religious people can. I can sort of relate, because growing up I had a hard time believing that anybody could actually believe in Jehovah or Allah or other Gods. I thought people were just going along with it for the sake of culture, to play along for the sake of community. I didn't think anybody actually believed it. Now I know that you do. I know it is important to you and for some of you is the very basis of who you are as people. I try to respect that.

I wonder if you can do the same in the opposite direction. Do you understand why those of us who are non-believers in Islam, who are Kufir as you put it, would not want to adopt the doctrines and directives of Islam? It shouldn't be hard to understand. And when you seek push it into France or other non-Muslim lands it should be respected, just as we should respect that you truly see it as commands from the creator of the universe and should respect that especially if we are in Islamic countries.

You don't seem to want to give the same respect that you demand.

Even after i moved thousands of miles away you still harrassed me and have used shills to attempt to cause chaos when things were going smoothly.

What in the world are you talking about? I assure you I am not stalking you.

I warn you of severe consequences for your anarchy in God's dominion.

Again, you don't seem to understand that I don't believe in your God, so any threats from your God have no weight at all in my mind, or in the mind of any non-believer. Threats of hell and promises of heaven are only as effective as belief in such things.

And I would again point out the double standard here. Muslims and Christians go on and on about how non-believers will be punished, and how we deserve to suffer for not believing what you do. Non-believers are mocked and hated by these religions to the extreme, over and over, in the very doctrines of your religions. And yet, you complain about cartoons of your prophet. Again, you feel it is important to dish it out, but you can't take it. You say "severe consequences for your anarchy in God's dominion". I say there is no such dominion. There is only the dominion of the mortal beings of the earth, and it is up to us to make that the best place possible.

If you can't accept that many of us are not muslims, will never be muslims, and will not accept or comply with your religious directives, then you make it so we can't co-exist, and you make it so we need to keep you out and shut you down. If you do this, you justify the very anti-muslim sentiment and action that you complain about. i have heard it said that Islam includes the directive that "there is no compulsion in religion". Why can't that be front and centre?

 

[Abz2000]

The only reply i can give is:
Sit down and think sincerely.
And wonder why your assumed leaders and idols have no share in the sovereignty of God, why they follow His servants from city to city like dogs seeking bones and tempt them while at the same time calling them liars.
And then Repent, and Submit to the Laws of Almighty God.
The clock is ticking.
Allah will judge between us in truth.

 

[M.I.A.]

No. You and I do not both know that. You believe that. I believe your God is imaginary. Can you see that? Can you accept it?

For the sake of peaceful co-existence, I can try to understand how you see things and try to meet you on that level. I can see how dear these beliefs are to you, so I can try to tread lightly and be respectful of what I see as your delusion. It is clearly important to people of faith, giving sense of purpose and support to many people, so I see no reason to trample on it, until it becomes militant. But that doesn't mean I in any way believe it myself.

I wonder if you can understand that those of us who are not Muslim, honestly and truly do not believe your Allah is real. To us, Islam is something you learned from culture, parents, or community. To us, Allah and all the rest of it are all in your head, and no more real than Zeus, Thor, ghosts, werewolves, or leprechauns. You can think us wrong, blind, oblivious to what you see as obvious truth, or whatever, but do you at least realize that we really think this?

I truly wonder sometimes if you, and other devoutly religious people can. I can sort of relate, because growing up I had a hard time believing that anybody could actually believe in Jehovah or Allah or other Gods. I thought people were just going along with it for the sake of culture, to play along for the sake of community. I didn't think anybody actually believed it. Now I know that you do. I know it is important to you and for some of you is the very basis of who you are as people. I try to respect that.

I wonder if you can do the same in the opposite direction. Do you understand why those of us who are non-believers in Islam, who are Kufir as you put it, would not want to adopt the doctrines and directives of Islam, which we see as recycled myths and commands from an imaginary being? It shouldn't be hard to understand. And when you seek push it into France or other non-Muslim lands it should be respected, just as we should respect that you truly see it as commands from the creator of the universe and should respect that especially if we are in Islamic countries.

You don't seem to want to give the same respect that you demand.



What in the world are you talking about? I assure you I am not stalking you.



Again, you don't seem to understand that I don't believe in your God, so any threats from your God have no weight at all in my mind, or in the mind of any non-believer. Threats of hell and promises of heaven are only as effective as belief in such things.

And I would again point out the double standard here. Muslims and Christians go on and on about how non-believers will be punished, and how we deserve to suffer for not believing what you do. Non-believers are mocked and hated by these religions to the extreme, over and over, in the very doctrines of your religions. And yet, you complain about cartoons of your prophet. Again, you feel it is important to dish it out, but you can't take it. You say "severe consequences for your anarchy in God's dominion". I say there is no such dominion. There is only the dominion of the mortal beings of the earth, and it is up to us to make that the best place possible.

If you can't accept that many of us are not muslims, will never be muslims, and will not accept or comply with your religious directives, then you make it so we can't co-exist, and you make it so we need to keep you out and shut you down. If you do this, you justify the very anti-muslim sentiment and action that you complain about. i have heard it said that Islam includes the directive that "there is no compulsion in religion". Why can't that be front and centre?

I think atheism as a movement is rather constrictive. As long as you don't buy into the stereotypes people will be associating with it... And its obvious champions.. Not literally but you get what I'm trying to say.

But you lack respect for Islam for sure, IMO Islam is as true as science.. It exists if you want it to or not.. If you understand it or not is also up to you.

The preconceived ideas you hold about Islam are in fact narrow minded and prejudiced.

But if we were perfect I doubt we would be having this conversation.. Thread.

I won't threaten you personally but Islam is a warning. All live and die..

But until you realise how the world works you probably won't fear anything or accept any niggles of conscience..

At least in Islam we have the pretence of piety and community.. That in itself is half the battle.. Like any relationship it requires a lot of work.

Or not.

 

[LearnIslam]

The only reply i can give is:
Sit down and think sincerely.
And wonder why your assumed leaders and idols have no share in the sovereignty of God, why they follow His servants from city to city like dogs seeking bones and tempt them while at the same time calling them liars.
And then Repent, and Submit to the Laws of Almighty God.
The clock is ticking.
Allah will judge between us in truth.

Such statements are the problem. These sorts of words are used by each faction that claims to represent the word of the Creator. And then it is enforced violently.

The understanding of the existence of the Creator is beyond the scope of logic, so I can't reason with Pygoscelis why it is true. It is experiential, not logical.

Regardless, what Pygoscelis said in post #214, has valid points.

Atheism also has two forms and the second is more prevalent among men and women of reason. The first is the arrogance of half-thought, the belief that religions were induced for political ends to a foolish mass, and the unyielding tendency to accept a moral Big Brother or entity to be answerable to. Of course this is not how the Creator is or should be thought of as.

The second form of atheism is the inability to accept what appears wrong. If I pointed you to a red wall, and insisted that it is blue, would you be able to accept? This is Pygoscelis' atheism, I think. And so, what is there for him to 'repent' from?

Is it not true that what you assume, of the Creator, you have been taught to accept. Many of the things are beyond the scope of what can be verified in this lifetime. Is it not? That is why it is called 'faith' or 'belief'.

But I agree with these difference we shouldn't insult or patronize each other. If we feel we have a point, we can speak. Any civilization flourishes with this exchange of ideas, not insults or violence. And the lack of this is what has brought the wars in the Muslim heartland. They will trade weapons with foreigners to destroy their brothers. This is why foreign countries are so easily involved in the wars there. If people are scared of their rulers, these are the consequences. State rule shouldn't be done in an atmosphere of intimidation.

 

[M.I.A.]

Such statements are the problem. These sorts of words are used by each faction that claims to represent the word of the Creator. And then it is enforced violently.

The understanding of the existence of the Creator is beyond the scope of logic, so I can't reason with Pygoscelis why it is true. It is experiential, not logical.

Regardless, what Pygoscelis said in post #214, has valid points.

Atheism also has two forms and the second is more prevalent among men and women of reason. The first is the arrogance of half-thought, the belief that religions were induced for political ends to a foolish mass, and the unyielding tendency to accept a moral Big Brother or entity to be answerable to. Of course this is not how the Creator is or should be thought of as.

The second form of atheism is the inability to accept what appears wrong. If I pointed you to a red wall, and insisted that it is blue, would you be able to accept? This is Pygoscelis' atheism, I think. And so, what is there for him to 'repent' from?

Is it not true that what you assume, of the Creator, you have been taught to accept. Many of the things are beyond the scope of what can be verified in this lifetime. Is it not? That is why it is called 'faith' or 'belief'.

But I agree with these difference we shouldn't insult or patronize each other. If we feel we have a point, we can speak. Any civilization flourishes with this exchange of ideas, not insults or violence. And the lack of this is what has brought the wars in the Muslim heartland. They will trade weapons with foreigners to destroy their brothers. This is why foreign countries are so easily involved in the wars there. If people are scared of their rulers, these are the consequences. State rule shouldn't be done in an atmosphere of intimidation.

that kind of reminds me of a certain part in the quran..

link is something i found on google of no particular importance other than it being the first i came across looking for it.

http://www.iqrasense.com/stories-of...y-of-moses-and-ai-khidr-al-kahf-18-60-82.html


although nobody can claim guidance today, we still follow authority.


and maybe a little more at 28:15 and onwards

on repentance

http://quran.com/28


a walls a wall i guess.

 

[ardianto]

Just curious. Before the attack happened, was there Muslim community representative who protest the cartoon directly to Charlie Hebdo?. I mean came to Charlie Hebdo office to talk with those who responsible for the cartoon.

 

[LearnIslam]

M.I.A

Your post tells nothing. Abz2000 was talking about repentance. That is being Holier than thou.

Those who hijack the Creator's word are the ones who should repent. The ones to blame for the negative image of Islam are the Imams and the leaders on the Muslim heartland.

This discussion has gone far enough, yet, there isn't a real analysis of things.

 

[LearnIslam]

Just curious. Before the attack happened, was there Muslim community representative who protest the cartoon directly to Charlie Hebdo?. I mean came to Charlie Hebdo office to talk with those who responsible for the cartoon.

Good question.