Immigrants / refugees

[JohnnyEnglish]

I am new to this forum and I joined because I have aquestion (well I have a few questions but I’ll see how it goes). My question is directed at Muslims living inthe UK. I understand that my question may bedifficult or uncomfortable but I would much appreciate your answer(s)

I am middle aged, English, white, male, by birth and decent. I think it likelythat I am about as average as any other middle aged, English, white, male. I don’t know any Muslims, none of myneighbours are Muslim, I see immigrant Muslims a couple of miles down the road fromme swathed in cloth from head to toe and I see the news on TV everday whichshows Mulsims in the UK either leaving to fight in Syria or staying and tryingto turn the UK into something like the failed country they left and I seethousands of other Muslims risking their lives (litterally) to try and get intothe UK.

My question is this . . . .
Why don’t all those Muslims leaving Syria, Iraq and other failed countriesseek asylum in a Muslim country. Why dothey walk straight through safe Muslim countries e.g. Turkey and killthemselves to get into a none Muslim country?

I just don’t understand?

 

[JohnnyEnglish]

Zaei, thank you for your response to my post (the only person to respond)!

If that is the reason and it is the case that all Muslim countries are corrupt and bad why is that? What is the core fact/feature of Muslim countries that makes them a failed states?

 

[Abz2000]

take a look at the middle east, Asia, China, south america and the whole lot and look at their histories over the past century and you'll get an idea of how illagal invasions and erecting of puppet regimes affect economies and migration.

less recent examples are "honourable" east india company, the looting of south asia and opium smuggling to china, the effects of which still endure.
recent examples are afghanistan, iraq, libya, syria.

no point stealing people's wealth, maiming them, installing vicious security guards over them, and then wondering why they come looking in your dustbin for food when they're hungry or trying to rest in the shed that you decorated with their money which you robbed - maybe they're less wary of the smiling guard in a clean uniform standing in front of your mansion who you trained to be courteous to your guests, unlike the ones you installed in the cheap labour slave camps.

the british training of R.A.B death squads in bangladesh and the subsequent slaughter in motijeel dhaka,
and the negative american influence upon the egyptian army are prime examples of criminal exploitation.

it wouldn't take long for Muslims to establish Islam in the lands in which the consist a majority, implement the laws of Allah, and welcome their brothers and sisters in faith if the kufr majority countries stopped meddling and harming them and installing corrupt officials in order to exploit the abundant resources and hard workers.

 

[ardianto]

Greeting, Mr English.

If you see those people just as Muslims, indeed, you would be confused why they go to non-Muslim countries in Europe. But if you see them as (and this is the fact) job seekers, then you would be understand why they want to go to Europe.

There is difference between refugees and economic migrants. Refugees are people who leave their homeland because forced by situation, and then will back after situation has safe. While economic migrants are people who leave their homeland with intention to get better prosperity. Although indeed, refugees can turn into economic migrants.

 

[JohnnyEnglish]

Thanksto those who attempted sensible answers.

Thesepeople are either:
1. Refugees from countries at war seekingsafety.
Or
2.Economic migrants seeking a better life.

Fromthe few answers given here it seems that you believe that the vast majority are(2) and simply looking for free housing, free schools, free health services, anda good job in a safe, stable, secure country. Is that the consensus view of all here?

 

[JohnnyEnglish]

Immigrants or Refugees

Are the majority of these people:

1. Refugees from countries at war seeking safety.
Or
2. Economic migrants seeking a better life in a safe, stable, secure country.

(I tried to make this post a 'poll' but I couldn't work out how to do that)!

 

[Eric H]

Greetings and peace be with you JohnnyEnglish; and welcome to the forum from another white English male, retired,

Syria, Iraq and other failed countries

Have you considered the role of Britain and America, we went against UN resolutions to invade Iraq in 2003. As a result, Britain and America have changed Iraq from what you describe as a failed country to a war zone, we have destabilized Iraq creating over two million refugees, many of whom went to Syria. These people have lost everything, their homes, jobs, education, many of them had friends and relatives killed from the conflict.

When I grew up as a kid in the IK, I had this warm cosy feeling about our nation, the history books showed we were the good guys, but it is the victors who write the history books, and we have had a victorious history.

Now my thoughts are more for justice for all people, there seems a similarity in how the Jews were treated during WW2 and how Muslims are being treated today. First you label them as a cause of all the problems, then you take remedies to put the problem right.

Some interesting stats on refugees, it seems the majority have gone to Muslim countries........


The numbers

More than 4 million refugees have fled Syria since the war there began in 2011. According to the UN’s refugee agency, almost 1.8 million have gone to Turkey, more than 600,000 to Jordan and 1 million to Lebanon – a country whose population is just 4 million.

On Monday, Angela Merkel said Germany expected to take at least 800,000 asylum seekers this year. The figure is likely to go up, and could hit 1 million, Berlin says. In 2014 the European nation that accepted the largest number of refugees in proportion to its population was Sweden. Hungary, Malta, Switzerland and 13 other countries accepted more asylum applications than the UK, according to Eurostat.

Between June 2014 and June 2015, the UK took 166 Syrian refugees. They were resettled from camps in Jordan and other neighbouring countries under a new government scheme. The “vulnerable persons” relocation initiative began in March 2014. Under it, the UK has taken 216 people. In June David Cameron said the scheme would be “modestly expanded”.

The Home Office says that since 2011 almost 5,000 Syrians including family members have been given asylum under normal procedures. However, the figure includes many Syrians who were already living in the UK, and who were unable to return home because of war. Britain is the second biggest bilateral donor of humanitarian aid. It has pledged £900m, the Home Office says.
http://www.theguardian.com/world/2015/sep/02/refugees-welcome-uk-germany-compare-migration

In the spirit of praying for justice for all people

Eric

 

[umairlooms]

wow..muslims in the UK only have two things in mind?
to fight in Syria or fight in the UK??

this is a truly amazing insight mr johnny english!

 

[sister herb]

wow..muslims in the UK only have two things in mind?
to fight in Syria or fight in the UK??

this is a truly amazing insight mr johnny english!

Hmm... Actually majority of Muslims in UK (as I believe) like in other countries too doesn´t want to fight against anyone but live a normal, peaceful live - like every others. News headlines many times give wrong image about them.

 

[Abz2000]

wow..muslims in the UK only have two things in mind?
to fight in Syria or fight in the UK??

this is a truly amazing insight mr johnny english!

that's the mentality that people acquire when their countries are run by arms dealers who thrive off bloodshed, bankers who thrive off keeping people on their knees in poverty, and mineral resource dealers who thrive off the abilty to expand their extraction enterprises via new aggressions,
they attempt to keep people corrupted, debased and careless while attempting to unnecessarily interpret the majority of interactions and statements in the international arena in a military context, then God who is the best of planners interprets likewise and sends upon their whole populations abominations in order that they may reflect and rectify their deeds, then when they disregard all warnings against sin and corruption and insolently transgress all bounds of halal and haram - He calls them to account in one go.

it were better that they repented and submitted to the pure and decent guidance of Allah which would bring them success in this life and in eternity.

 

[ardianto]

Thanksto those who attempted sensible answers.

Thesepeople are either:
1. Refugees from countries at war seekingsafety.
Or
2.Economic migrants seeking a better life.

Fromthe few answers given here it seems that you believe that the vast majority are(2) and simply looking for free housing, free schools, free health services, anda good job in a safe, stable, secure country. Is that the consensus view of all here?

Refugees are not fussy in choosing a place. What they want is just a place where they can live safely and continue their life again. Refugees may expect to enter specific country, but if this country does not open the door for them, then they will try to go to another country. While economic migrants choose specific country. If this country does not accept them, they will still try to enter this country and do not want to back or go to another country.

I learn it from cases that happen in my country, Indonesia. There are Rohingya refugees in Indonesia. They do not mind to live anywhere, as long as safe. Different than economic migrants who illegally try to enter Australia through Indonesia. They insist to go only to Australia, even after arrested by Immigration bureau, and do not want to back or go to another country.

 

[ardianto]

Hmm... Actually majority of Muslims in UK (as I believe) like in other countries too doesn´t want to fight against anyone but live a normal, peaceful live - like every others. News headlines many times give wrong image about them.

People usually judge a community from the worst in this community, not from the best.

 

[Abz2000]

interesting how a compartmentalized label is ready to be applied like a tag on each and every person despite the diversity or mix of reasons, or blatant mislplacement of the barcode.
regardless of all the confusing and force generalized reasons given, each person should truthfully, if given the fair opportunity, speak for themselves.

some real confusing trash talk

God said to Moses, "I AM WHO I AM.
This is what you are to say to the Israelites:
'I AM has sent me to you.'"
Exodus 3:14

1.*A. L. M.2.*The Roman Empire has been defeated-3.*In a land close by; but they, (even) after (this) defeat of theirs, will soon be victorious-4.*Within a few years. With Allah is the Decision, in the past and in the Future: on that Day shall the Believers rejoice-
5.*With the help of Allah. He helps whom He will, and He is exalted in might, most merciful.6.*(It is) the promise of Allah. Never does Allah depart from His promise: but most men understand not.

7.*They know but the outer (things) in the life of this world: but of the End of things they are heedless.

8.*Do they not reflect in their own minds? Not but for just ends and for a term appointed, did Allah create the heavens and the earth, and all between them: yet are there truly many among men who deny the meeting with their Lord (at the Resurrection)!9.*Do they not travel through the earth, and see what was the end of those before them? They were superior to them in strength: they tilled the soil and populated it in greater numbers than these have done: there came to them their apostles with Clear (Signs). (Which they rejected, to their own destruction): It was not Allah Who wronged them, but they wronged their own souls.10.*In the long run evil in the extreme will be the End of those who do evil; for that they rejected the Signs of Allah, and held them up to ridicule.

 

[JohnnyEnglish]

The questions I posed here were designed to help me understand why Muslims are leaving Muslim countries at great a real risk to their own lives to live in non Muslims countries, walking through Muslim countries to get to non Muslim northern Europe and on that walk choosing to walk through Christian countries to get there (e.g Serbia and not Albania). None of the replies here make any attempt to answer that question.

There seems to be no agreement here on whether they are fleeing war or simply looking for a better quality of life.

From my reading of posts on this forum I have formed the view that you (Muslims) believe the Koran has the answer to any question. What does the Koran say about where Muslims must go when leaving a Muslim country fleeing war or poverty?

 

[JohnnyEnglish]

Note: Abz2000 . . I'd be grateful if you would refrain from posting in my thread, you are flooding it with volumes of rubbish.

 

[Gale]

Living standards are higher in Europe. They believe there are more opportunities to find work. Where else would they go? Most of the Middle East and wider Islamic world have high unemployment and many social problems.

 

[OmAbdullah]

Peace

The Holy Quraan has the answer to every problem as well as to your question. I tried to remain quiet because I am ashamed of this behavior of those Muslims. All of the Muslim immigrants cannot be blamed. For example, we came to know from some news that in Lebanon some forms were distributed encouraging the Muslim refugees to fill and sign the forms and go to Greece, from there they can easily go to Europe. So many Muslims filled up the forms and went to Greece where they were locked up in thousands in a stadium with the excuse of registration. They were kept in sun without water. When they became restless then fire extinguishers were used to cover them with carbon dioxide gas, to deprive them of oxygen and thus kill them. the next morning, only 500--600 were found in the stadium and it was said that the rest of them were disposed off overnight.

Now your question is right that why do they go there, but you can see the reason behind it. Many are obliged and the enemies take advantage of their helpless situation, they deceive them by such false paper work and then trap and kill them as is done in Greece. Shame on such killer human beings.

But I feel sorry and ashamed on the behavior of those Muslims who have thrown the Book of Allah at their back and they love Europe and other Western countries more than any thing. They leave behind such Muslim countries which give them respect and rights and choose to go to the Western countries for insulting and punishing themselves. May Allah guide them to the right path of the Holy Quraan, aameen.

You shouldn't use bad words for ABZ's post because he posted the verses of the Holy Quraan and you should have respect for the Divine Books. Otherwise remember that you are going to face Almighty God and then you shall have no way of escape from horrible lasting punishment.

 

[Futuwwa]

From my reading of posts on this forum I have formed the view that you (Muslims) believe the Koran has the answer to any question.

It doesn't.

 

[MuslimInshallah]

Peace be to you all,

Ah Johnny English…! Why did my parents move us from the UK to Canada? Were we forced by war and hardship? (smile) Well, of course not! We were truly purely economic migrants, looking for a better life. But we were welcomed with open arms. Immigration was very quick and easy. (smile) And though I was a purely economic migrant, I like to think that both my adopted country and I have been good for one another.

The refugees from Syria and Iraq, however, who have much more serious reasons for fleeing their countries… they have not been so kindly received, have they?

At least some Middle Eastern countries have tried to look after the millions of refugees. Little Lebanon, for instance, with a population of only 4 million, has been trying to look after 1 million refugees. May God Bless the Lebanese! But wealthy, teeming Britain last year took… I read just recently… about 160 Syrian refugees. A mere 160! Does this seem right to you, Johnny English?

(musingly) You know, Johnny, I read Adam Smith's The Wealth of Nations some years ago. And I remember one part that described how the poor in England were not allowed to move freely within the country. England used to be divided into parishes, you see, and the poor were the responsibility of the local parish. So wealthy parishes did not want to have to deal with the poor from less wealthy areas. (smile) It seems to me that England survived the dismantling of all the inner borders. (laugh) Actually, did it not flourish after these barriers came down?

(smile) And during the times of the Islamic Empires, the people used to move very freely from place to place… and the Islamic world was rich in all senses of the word.

(smile) It is scary to think of dismantling barriers. We feel so very vulnerable. (smile) But perhaps it is goodness that we are keeping out?


May God, the One Who Knows the Seen and the Unseen, Help us to Open our hearts to one another.

 

[BlueOwl358]

*eats some fries* (I really like fries and salty food). We all know there is a massive trend of Muslims just not making sense, you can see it in the current "Migration Crisis" and the whole "Middle East Storm-ageddon". It is a fact that most, if not all of the Islamic World is senseless, and consists of failed states. There is no discussion about it, there are a lot that aren't, bust most of the nations, you can recognize that should be Islamic, are flying about in the dust. Saudi Arabia, Iraq, Syria, the whole mess. I myself live in Pakistan, and I can tell you it is a failed state, like so many others. It is senseless and obsessive and the entire nation is twisted about in false national values of pride. Probably gonna leave myself, probably don't know where. Not gonna go into much detail as to why, but we've all heard it, stupid regimes, lack of good administration and recognition of ethnicity and religions. Instead, we've all broiled up in nationalism, which can't work without a spine to support it, which can be anything from religion to race or culture or a republic or even some history. But our nations are just left over rubble from the last 100 years.

You see, Europe had massive time to settle itself out, via the world wars, these numerous treaties, and even Napoleon, by war, by the management of borders, a thousand year problem of whether Slavs or Germans should rule Pomerania, it got fixed. We didn't get the time to nuke ourself to tiredness, we got interrupted so we have to go through God knows how many years of reshaping our borders, but we can't due to global pressure. What I am saying is, either we need better management by agreement or war, but it needs to happen. Examples: Khuzestan, the Durand Line, Kurdish Division, Sunni-Shia problems in Upper Iraq or Al-Jazira, North-South Yemen, but these problems can't be fixed until nations stop trying to fix national borders in our current state, and let them fluctuate. War doesn't end until there is so much war already, nations are forced to be peaceful due to being tired.

All of this has caused massive unrest, and migrations. Why are they migrating? It is likely a mix of both, there is war in the middle east AND better living in better parts of the world, and both reasons are simultaniously trying to make it happen. Why do people keep moving to all the way to Scandanavia and not stop before hand? Well, this idea of cities of light have been so stemmed in people, they can't think of anything other than these cities, its one city that gets fixed. Personally, I love Hungary, great Budapest right in the middle of the Pannonian Basin, or Danzig, but practically, I only know english as a european language, so practically someone like me would go to the UK or somewhere, but I ain't a refugee and can choose so there is that. But most often people don't choose where they go, they flood in, regardless of reason, its human reason, and all these reasons are an excuse for this and the cause, but it would happen without chaos, just in a lesser way. It is fifty-fifty, and it is that way because both are the excuses that can make it happen, but one isn't necessarily the primary reason.

Point is, Muslims need to let their borders fluctuate or somehow mix and combine with each other, but somehow, we need better administration, and not nationalism that hinges its reality on fixed national borders.