Immigrants / refugees

[sister herb]

The questions I posed here were designed to help me understand why Muslims are leaving Muslim countries at great a real risk to their own lives to live in non Muslims countries, walking through Muslim countries to get to non Muslim northern Europe and on that walk choosing to walk through Christian countries to get there (e.g Serbia and not Albania). None of the replies here make any attempt to answer that question.

There seems to be no agreement here on whether they are fleeing war or simply looking for a better quality of life.

From my reading of posts on this forum I have formed the view that you (Muslims) believe the Koran has the answer to any question. What does the Koran say about where Muslims must go when leaving a Muslim country fleeing war or poverty?

When you see those people in the streets, why don´t you go to ask this from themselves? They surely know the answers to your questions better than we do. When we here try to answer to you, its like we comment on other people's things, lives and choices. They surely know them much better than we do.

 

[Abz2000]

Note: Abz2000 .

---

. I'd be grateful if you would refrain from posting in my thread, you are flooding it with volumes of rubbish.

your question itself is trash - considering that you have disregarded all the plain facts surrounding the issue
- and for someone who left britain with his family and moved to a 90% Muslim majority country only to be harmed and had lawful ventures sabotaged, having been offered money to export kilos of heroin by agents of influence for the british government who know i'm being watchedand have previously told me i'm being watched, and then being harassed by it's installed puppet ally which the people tried to remove and were murdered for - certainly creates a clear understanding - specially after having gone to the embassy personally and having requested them to stop the harassment and remove the tracker which has a corruptive influence.
what's telling is how they took all the questions, made me put it in writing, didn't give me an acknowledgement receipt, cut me off and changed the subject when i started to mention the drug pushing, offered me a card with a number regarding my expired passport, didn't reply or respond to any of the accusations, haven't said a word regarding the brain heammorhage they've caused despite taking in the diagnostic reports which they themselves requested me to acquire, all while proudly displayng posters about the girls they save from "forced marriages" in "medieval villages where oxen pull agricultural material".

so next time you ask a stupid question, think about the fact that someone may be feeling like ripping your throat out.

 

[JohnnyEnglish]

I myself live in Pakistan,.

Well done. Finally a post from a person who has considered the situation objectively, formed a balanced view and articulated it well.

 

[sister herb]

By the way this poll is misleading. What are you asking with it? Are all people whose come now to Europe immigrants or refugees? What if some are immigrants and some refugees? So there should to be the third option like "Both".

 

[JohnnyEnglish]

I have asked for your views and ignoring the diatribe from you know who and picking through the few helpful posts it seems clear that the main reasons these Muslims leave Muslim countries, travelling through other safe Muslims countries to risk their lives to get to northern Europe is because they want a better life and have formed the view that they won't get that in a Muslim country.

I can tell you what the ordinary English person thinks . . .

You will have seen on the news that we are a caring, generous people. We want to help and we want to give and we will welcome anyone in need. What we don't want and will not accept is people coming here, enjoying the safe, secure, wealthy country that we have built over hundreds of years and try and turn it into the failed country that they left. If you come here and FIT IN, adopt our cultural values, leave your baggage behind and become English, including looking like you are English you will be welcomed and accepted. If you come here and try and turn one of our towns into e.g. a mini Pakistan, you will not be welcome. We don't understand why you left that country because it was a failure and want to bring those same cultural values here and make England into the same failure. Why do those people down the road from me want to look like an outsider, why don't they wear the same clothes as us, it's like red rag to a bull, to us their appearance makes a statement and that statement is, I don't like you, I don't want to be like you, but I want your free health care and free schools and free housing and free benefits. You will say (some of you) that they and anyone can wear what they like and yes they can but you and they should know that we do 'judge a book by its cover.'

 

[sister herb]

Your opinions about immigrants (now you are talking about them, not the refugees whose fleeing for their lives, and hope only to find a safe place) are very typical for the typical Europeans. I read every day from the internet or from the newspapers just similar kind of opinions about refugees and immigrants like your ones. But, remember this, you are now talking about very tiny minority. The majority of the immigrants don´t want to change their new homeland to similar failure what they have moved away. I still advice you to go to talk with immigrants and discuss with them about your thoughts. They don´t bite you, I promise but you can learn to understand them better than you do now. And they too will learn to understand your fears and doubts you seem to have because of them, their different habits or their different dressings.

 

[Abz2000]

if you've spoken on behalf of the people of britain, i advise the Muslims to get out of London before the day of Arafah unless the Queen, her government and people repent and submit to Allah.
Don't say you haven't been warned.

And those who disbelieved, said to their Messengers: "Surely, we shall drive you out of our land, or you shall return to our religion." So their Lord inspired them: "Truly, We shall destroy the Zalimun (polytheists, disbelievers and wrong-doers.).

 

[Abz2000]

 

[BlueOwl358]

You know, the world is all full of a lot of cultures, spread over the smallest as well as biggest areas. And the specific culture in a place changes, cultures change a lot. We do need to remember that France used to be Gaul, and Celtic instead of a Germanic-Latin fusion of sorts, and the rest of the list I won't talk about. And I think that is the problem that most people are fearing, as to how these cultures are recognized and how our cultures are changing.

We've established that people can fit in these two groups of unwilling and willing people, and these two reasonings. Now, the refugees, they don't have a choice, they can't decide if they have to go, it is a decision enforced on them instead of chosen by them. We can't blame them if they settle somewhere, and they usually don't go that far, most of the Syrian refugees have gone to Jordan, and likely none to Oman. These refugees also aren't affecting culture that much, since both are Arabs. So I think we can excuse that. I also think they would go back to their own nation if it got fixed, and I mean really fixed.

Now, there is a lot of people migrating, who totally abandon their cultural values, and that is a lot of people. These people, as I said, migrate for economic reasons. Many don't have the culture, tying them, and they fit in, and this is happening a lot. Now, the nation they are migrating to, won't remain homogenous that much, as in 100 percent, but their culture, which is attracting people so much, won't topple so much because these people aren't migrating to bring their culture. As I also said, if the Islamic world is fixed, this economic gap will also fill. I believe, the cultural fixing and administration fixing will make the idea of migrating for economic reasons, useless, because there is no incentive to migrate.

Now, is there any other reason left? Why else would people migrate if they neither need an economically better life. Tourists don't live someplace forever, do they? This is all there is to it, and this is the most basic idea and hope of Muslims with hope, to fix our world, so we don't leave it.


By the way, I found this great article on another website, I think it can help a bit. Hope it does.

http://www.missionislam.com/knowledge/hijrah.htm

EDIT: By the way, I found some numbers from Wikipedia with the United Nations as a Source. A total of 4.08 million refugees. 2.13 million into Turkey, 1.19 million into Lebanon, 1.4 million into Jordan, and these are the top three. The rest are below 300 thousand. Germany, the European country with the most, got 105 thousand, Greece 88 thousand.

 

[OmAbdullah]

It doesn't.

It Does, Yes; The Holy Quraan has answer to any problem till the end of this world and also for the problems of the Hereafter!!!

 

[OmAbdullah]

Greetings and peace be with you JohnnyEnglish; and welcome to the forum from another white English male, retired,



Have you considered the role of Britain and America, we went against UN resolutions to invade Iraq in 2003. As a result, Britain and America have changed Iraq from what you describe as a failed country to a war zone, we have destabilized Iraq creating over two million refugees, many of whom went to Syria. These people have lost everything, their homes, jobs, education, many of them had friends and relatives killed from the conflict.

When I grew up as a kid in the IK, I had this warm cosy feeling about our nation, the history books showed we were the good guys, but it is the victors who write the history books, and we have had a victorious history.

Now my thoughts are more for justice for all people, there seems a similarity in how the Jews were treated during WW2 and how Muslims are being treated today. First you label them as a cause of all the problems, then you take remedies to put the problem right.

Some interesting stats on refugees, it seems the majority have gone to Muslim countries........


The numbers

More than 4 million refugees have fled Syria since the war there began in 2011. According to the UN’s refugee agency, almost 1.8 million have gone to Turkey, more than 600,000 to Jordan and 1 million to Lebanon – a country whose population is just 4 million.

On Monday, Angela Merkel said Germany expected to take at least 800,000 asylum seekers this year. The figure is likely to go up, and could hit 1 million, Berlin says. In 2014 the European nation that accepted the largest number of refugees in proportion to its population was Sweden. Hungary, Malta, Switzerland and 13 other countries accepted more asylum applications than the UK, according to Eurostat.

Between June 2014 and June 2015, the UK took 166 Syrian refugees. They were resettled from camps in Jordan and other neighbouring countries under a new government scheme. The “vulnerable persons” relocation initiative began in March 2014. Under it, the UK has taken 216 people. In June David Cameron said the scheme would be “modestly expanded”.

The Home Office says that since 2011 almost 5,000 Syrians including family members have been given asylum under normal procedures. However, the figure includes many Syrians who were already living in the UK, and who were unable to return home because of war. Britain is the second biggest bilateral donor of humanitarian aid. It has pledged £900m, the Home Office says.
http://www.theguardian.com/world/2015/sep/02/refugees-welcome-uk-germany-compare-migration

In the spirit of praying for justice for all people

Eric

Salaam,

True, very true. May Allah bless you for expressing the Truth. O' Brother, May Allah bless you with the Truth of Islam. Thanks a lot, you are the only non-Muslim who expressed true and just words!!

 

[JohnnyEnglish]

Your opinions about immigrants (now you are talking about them, not the refugees whose fleeing for their lives, and hope only to find a safe place) are very typical for the typical Europeans..

That is the question I asked - are they refugees fleeing war or economic migrants trying to get into a prosperous, safe, well managed country and the consensus amongst the members here is that they are the latter. If they were refugees feeling war they wouldn't pay E4,000 to get into a leaking boat and risk their lives leaving Turkey a stable safe Muslim country.

 

[JohnnyEnglish]

hijrah . htm

Thanks for the helpful and informative link (which I am not allowed to post). Clearly I am not Muslim, clearly 99% of you members here are. It may be that I am misunderstanding the information at this link or it may be that it is wrong but if it is right it seems to suggest that forbids you from living in land ruled by non Muslims. So, not only are these migrants not doing as Islam decrees but all of you living in Europe and America are ignoring your religious edicts! How hypocritical are you?

 

[sister herb]

That is the question I asked - are they refugees fleeing war or economic migrants trying to get into a prosperous, safe, well managed country and the consensus amongst the members here is that they are the latter. If they were refugees feeling war they wouldn't pay E4,000 to get into a leaking boat and risk their lives leaving Turkey a stable safe Muslim country.

You asked the question but you have already decided what is the right answer.

Are you sure that Turkey is a safe and stable country? If you would be in the life danger, would you take a risk (and pay everything you have) to be sure you can find a place where you are safe? I would. Its only a money and to me my life is more valuable than all the money of this world.

Yes, those masses whose now are coming to Europe are refugees.

I read every day from the internet and newspapers similar "evidences" like this your one - from there people whose say that of course its needed to help people in need but those whose are now coming here aren´t real ones etc. They refuse to see the reality but call these people as "economic refugees". Specially kind of hate-speech comes from the supporters of the far-right parties.

 

[Eric H]

Greetings and peace be with you JohnnyEnglish;

How hypocritical are you?

You cannot call desperate people hypocrites, especially from the comfort and safety of your own fairly peaceful home. You cannot comprehend the misery and suffering they have endured, and how they came to make their decisions to move, unless you have experienced it yourself.

In the spirit of praying for justice for all people

Eric

 

[sister herb]

I see that now people would have a good opportunity to show to those people in need the best of themselves and try to help if they ever can. Europeans claim so often (well some, not all of course) that Islam is not very peacefull religion, specially comparing to their own one. Its a good time to behave now as "the Good Samaritan". In here some have already done so, the ordinary people have took refugees to live to their homes as well the churches have opened their doors for the emergency accommodation situations. From news I have read how people have gave food and water to refugees etc.

Its much better than spread own prejudices in the social media.

I would like to challenge all Europeans: show in the practice how kind and peaceful your religion is, when you meet a person in distress. Do you walk away (and go back to internet to claim these people are not real refugees at all) or do you stop and ask can you help?

 

[Perspective]

Gulf countries have certainly walked away by not taking refugees from Syria. Left with nothing the refugees are trying to travel thousands of miles away from Middle East to reach countries like Germany and Austria, etc. Because apparently they are looked after better in those countries . JonnyEnglish, they want a shelter, food and safe place.

Also, regarding economic migrants - Ofcourse life is much better in UK, quality of healthcare, education, living standards and laws are much better than those in Middle Eastern countries therefore, they migrate. And the benefits, ofcourse ( in some cases) .

 

[sister herb]

Why we wouldn´t try to look this matter of refugees from the other perspective:

Many European countries suffer from demographic distortion and low birth rate. On a shame that Europeans do not see the refugees a good thing that many refugees are young people who are the future starting a family and have children. Humane Europeans unfortunately sometimes say that these refugees are the wrong kinds of people and they have the wrong religion. They refuse to understand that Europe has always been a multicultural area by several local cultures, values of life and religions.

Some say that those refugees will destroy the original European culture. Hmm... now in the Europe population is about 750 million people. Few more millions wouldn´t do anything for the average "European culture" - what ever it really is.

 

[Perspective]

Are you saying that Gulf countries have no duty to accept refugees ? You have posted some link on other post and you can see it for yourself, how many refugees have gone to european countries already. Whereas, Gulf countries have taken zero refugees. Your argument about birth rate hold no water because many countries who have taken refugees has around same birth rate as those countries.

 

[Gale]

They refuse to understand that Europe has always been a multicultural area by several local cultures, values of life and religions

This is not the case. Europe has not always been multicultural. The peoples of Europe were relatively homogenous, just as they were in Asian countries.

The idea of "(insert country) is a nation of immigrants" is merely a psychological construction by advocates of mass immigration and the multicultural idea.