Invoking others other than Allah???

[Muslim Soldier]

Prophet Salih (as) speaks with the souls of his people;
“So they slew the she –camel and revolted against their lord’s commandment, and they said: O Salih! Bring us what you threatened us with, if you are one of the apostles. Then the earthquake overtook them, so they became motionless bodies in their abode. Then he turned away from them and said; O my people, I did certainly deliver to you the message of my Lord, and I gave you good advice, but you do not love those who give good advice”. (Sura A’araf: 77-79).

Pay careful attention to the contents of these three ayats. The first ayat shows that when they were alive they demanded the punishment of Allah (swt).
The second ayat shows that the divine punishment overtook and destroyed each one of them.
The third ayat shows that Prophet Salih (as) spoke to them after their death and destruction and said “I presented you the divine message but you disliked someone giving you advice.”

 

[Muslim Soldier]

It is reported in Sunan an-Nisai and Sahih Muslim that Ayesha says; The holy prophet taught me the manner of visiting the graves, here is the text of the tradition:
“My Lord commanded me to come to Baqi and seek forgiveness for them. (Ayesha) says:- I asked him how one should seek forgiveness to which Holy prophet replied : Say peace (salaam) be upon the people of this place from the believers and Muslims, may God have mercy on those who have left and those who are to follow we shall join you all very soon”



We can observe from the above hadith that the Holy prophet (saw) is teaching Hazrat Ayesha to send salaam to the dead, asking Mercy for them and talking to them that we shall join you soon.

 

[Muslim Soldier]

# Nor are alike those that are living and those that are dead. Allah can make any that He wills to hear; but thou canst not make those to hear who are (buried) in graves.

Allah says...but thou canst not make those to hear who are (buried) in graves.

Therefore we cannot make one buried in the grave to hear but Allah can.

 

[Ibn Abi Ahmed]

Nor are the living equal with the dead . Lo! Allah maketh whom He will to hear . Thou canst not reach those who are in the graves .

the translation I found was the one above.

I see no contradiction between the two.

Now the question arises, is the prophet in the Grave?
the answer is easly found here.

The prophet is not in the grave therefore he can hear us.

You are missing the point. If he cannot hear us being in the grave and is in a different life - one that we have no knowledge of- it is sheer ignorance to say he can hear us. You are ascribing to him on of Allah's name of All Hearer. If that is not shirk, i dont know what is.

So the prophet can recive salaams through angles but he can not recive anything else?

Yes as it is in the Hadith.

"Do not make your homes into graves, nor make my grave into a place of celebration. Send your prayers and blessings upon me, for they will be conveyed to me wherever you may be." (Narrated by Abu Dawood with a good sanad, and all of its narrators are trustworthy)

"Do not take my grave as a place of celebration, nor your homes as graves; send prayers and blessings upon me, for your salutations will reach me, wherever you may be." (Narrated by Al-Maqdasi, in Al-Mukhtarah)

"Do not saddle up your riding beasts, except to three mosques: "The Sacred Mosque (in Makkah), this my mosque and Al-Aqsa Mosque (in Jerusalem)."
( Narrated by Bukhari, Muslim and others.)

Al-Bukhari and Muslim report that `Aa`ishah said: "When the Messenger of Allah was close to death, he covered his face with a cloth, and then when it became difficult for him to breathe, he uncovered his face and said:

"May Allah curse the Jews and Christians who took the graves of their Prophets as places of worship - do not imitate them."

And, (added `Aa`ishah,) "if it had not been for this, his grave might have been raised above ground, but it was feared that it would be taken as a place of worship."

Muslim narrates on the authority of Jundub Ibn `Abdillah (ra) that he said: "I heard the Prophet say five days before his death:


"Verily, I bear witness before Allah that I have taken none of you as my Khaleel,2 for truly, Allah has taken me as His Khaleel, just as He took Ibraheem (as ) as a Khaleel. If I were to take any man from my Ummah as a khaleel, it would be Abu Bakr. Your predecessors used to take their Prophets' graves as places of worship, so do not make graves into places of worship for I have forbidden you to do this."

It is narrated by Ahmad, with a good sanad,on the authority of Ibn Mas'ood (ra), in a narration traced back to the Prophet himself, the following:


"Verily, the most wicked of people are those who, when the Hour overtakes them, are still alive, and those who take graves as places of worship." (Also Narrated by Abu Hatim in his Saheeh)

Im giving you clear proofs of the forbiddance of those actions. Yet you still have not given me one hadith or one Verse that explicitly states what you claim. The Burden of proof is now upon you.

 

[Ibn Abi Ahmed]

It is reported in Sunan an-Nisai and Sahih Muslim that Ayesha says; The holy prophet taught me the manner of visiting the graves, here is the text of the tradition:
“My Lord commanded me to come to Baqi and seek forgiveness for them. (Ayesha) says:- I asked him how one should seek forgiveness to which Holy prophet replied : Say peace (salaam) be upon the people of this place from the believers and Muslims, may God have mercy on those who have left and those who are to follow we shall join you all very soon”



We can observe from the above hadith that the Holy prophet (saw) is teaching Hazrat Ayesha to send salaam to the dead, asking Mercy for them and talking to them that we shall join you soon.

Where does it say make Dua to them? Where does it say ask them for intercession? It doesnt. You have just proved my point.

 

[M H Kahn]

This whole concept also gives an opinion that Allah is just like any prime minister or president that u can't reach him or he can't look after everybody and i don't understand. What is the problem in just Calling Allah for ur help we Belief that he has all the Powers than why we need anybody else to ask & call Allah on our behalf

Because they will not abide by the ordainments of Allah. They believe in Allah and at the same time associate partners with Him.

 

[Muslim Soldier]

Abu Dawood in his ‘Sunan’ narrates from the holy prophet (saw) who said: “There is no one who sends greetings upon me but that Allah makes his greetings reach me and I answer his greetings”

Shaykh Mansur Ali Nasif, Al Taj al-jamil li al – ‘usul fi Ahadith al-Rasul’ reports that Holy prophet said: “…send greetings upon me, for your greetings reaches me…”


Comments:
The above traditions clearly confirms that our prayers do reach the Holy Prophet (s) when we send our greetings to him, and that is why it is highly recommended to send salawat before and after asking for Dua, so that Dua reaches him with greetings .



recorded by renowed Hufaz & Muhadithun that the Holy prophet (s) has said: “Anyone who visits the house of Allah and then visits my grave is like one who has visited me during my lifetime.” (Ref. Taqi-al Din al Subki in his Shifa-al-saqam).

“Allah is He besides Whom there is no god, the Ever living, the Self-subsisting by Whom all subsist; slumber does not overtake Him nor sleep; whatever is in the heavens and whatever is in the earth is His; who is he that can intercede with Him but by His permission?...” (2:255) “Surely your Lord is Allah, Who created the heavens and the earth in six periods, and He is firm in power, regulating the affair, there is no intercessor except after His permission;…” (10:3)

Notice the words but and except in the above mentioned verses. These verses do not condemn the presence of an intercessor; they just put a condition for the fact of intercession. So far we are establishing the fact that intercession is not something condemned in Islam, rather it is something accepted highly by Islam.

 

[Muslim Soldier]

Quote:
"Do not make your homes into graves, nor make my grave into a place of celebration. Send your prayers and blessings upon me, for they will be conveyed to me wherever you may be." (Narrated by Abu Dawood with a good sanad, and all of its narrators are trustworthy)

Quote:
"Do not take my grave as a place of celebration, nor your homes as graves; send prayers and blessings upon me, for your salutations will reach me, wherever you may be." (Narrated by Al-Maqdasi, in Al-Mukhtarah)

Do not make them places of celebration. There is a difference between celebration and mourning and asking for dua

 

[Ibn Abi Ahmed]

Abu Dawood in his ‘Sunan’ narrates from the holy prophet (saw) who said: “There is no one who sends greetings upon me but that Allah makes his greetings reach me and I answer his greetings”

Shaykh Mansur Ali Nasif, Al Taj al-jamil li al – ‘usul fi Ahadith al-Rasul’ reports that Holy prophet said: “…send greetings upon me, for your greetings reaches me…”

Exactly. You are confirming what I am saying. Sending Salams, not Dua.

Comments:
The above traditions clearly confirms that our prayers do reach the Holy Prophet (s) when we send our greetings to him, and that is why it is highly recommended to send salawat before and after asking for Dua, so that Dua reaches him with greetings .

The Hadeeth never mentions the word prayers. An example of twisting the hadeeths.

recorded by renowed Hufaz & Muhadithun that the Holy prophet (s) has said: “Anyone who visits the house of Allah and then visits my grave is like one who has visited me during my lifetime.” (Ref. Taqi-al Din al Subki in his Shifa-al-saqam).

Visits the grave. He doesnt say anything about making Dua to him.

Notice the words but and except in the above mentioned verses. These verses do not condemn the presence of an intercessor; they just put a condition for the fact of intercession. So far we are establishing the fact that intercession is not something condemned in Islam, rather it is something accepted highly by Islam.

The Permission is only given on the Day of Judgement and only to those who Allah is pleased with. You have again proven my point.

 

[Ibn Abi Ahmed]

Do not make them places of celebration. There is a difference between celebration and mourning and asking for dua

Youve disregarded the other Hadiths. Please read them.

 

[Ibn Abi Ahmed]

Salam,
Can I ask, Is it permissable to ask dua in this manner, "Oh Allah, by the love that you have for this person, make my affairs easy for me"...?

In this example, you are not asking the person but Allah to show mercy on you by the love that he has for that person, be he a prophet, awliya etc...

So is that kind of dua permissable?

No it isnt. Because it is like a beggar going to a King, and saying, By the love you have for your Son, i ask you for this and this.
His son has no place in the beggars reguest.

Likewise, the status of anyone else has no place in your Dua to Allah.

 

[M H Kahn]

Nor are the living equal with the dead . Lo! Allah maketh whom He will to hear . Thou canst not reach those who are in the graves .

the translation I found was the one above.
Now the question arises, is the prophet in the Grave?
the answer is easly found here.
The prophet is not in the grave therefore he can hear us.
So the prophet can recive salaams through angles but he can not recive anything else?

It is Allah's order to send salam, as He says: " Allah and His angels send blessings on the Prophet: O ye that believe! Send ye blessings on him, and salute him with all respect. " 033.056 We have to obey the order. It should not be a believer's concern if the salam reaches the prophet or not, or if reaches, how.

 

[waji]

good point kahn

 

[Muslim Soldier]

The Permission is only given on the Day of Judgement and only to those who Allah is pleased with. You have again proven my point.

And who are you to decide that?

It is Allah's order to send salam, as He says: " Allah and His angels send blessings on the Prophet: O ye that believe! Send ye blessings on him, and salute him with all respect. " 033.056 We have to obey the order. It should not be a believer's concern if the salam reaches the prophet or not, or if reaches, how.

A typical reply for one who does not have an answer

Salam,
Can I ask, Is it permissable to ask dua in this manner, "Oh Allah, by the love that you have for this person, make my affairs easy for me"...?

In this example, you are not asking the person but Allah to show mercy on you by the love that he has for that person, be he a prophet, awliya etc...

So is that kind of dua permissable?

Yes it is permissible.

Well, I never thought of it that way...I will have to do some more investigation, but thanks for that. :happy:

Dont thank him
Conduct your own research then conclude.

 

[Muslim Soldier]

Youve disregarded the other Hadiths. Please read them.

"Do not saddle up your riding beasts, except to three mosques: "The Sacred Mosque (in Makkah), this my mosque and Al-Aqsa Mosque (in Jerusalem)."
( Narrated by Bukhari, Muslim and others.)

What connection does this tradition have?

Quote:
Al-Bukhari and Muslim report that `Aa`ishah said: "When the Messenger of Allah was close to death, he covered his face with a cloth, and then when it became difficult for him to breathe, he uncovered his face and said:

"May Allah curse the Jews and Christians who took the graves of their Prophets as places of worship - do not imitate them."

And, (added `Aa`ishah,) "if it had not been for this, his grave might have been raised above ground, but it was feared that it would be taken as a place of worship."

Quote:
Muslim narrates on the authority of Jundub Ibn `Abdillah (ra) that he said: "I heard the Prophet say five days before his death:


"Verily, I bear witness before Allah that I have taken none of you as my Khaleel,2 for truly, Allah has taken me as His Khaleel, just as He took Ibraheem (as ) as a Khaleel. If I were to take any man from my Ummah as a khaleel, it would be Abu Bakr. Your predecessors used to take their Prophets' graves as places of worship, so do not make graves into places of worship for I have forbidden you to do this."

Quote:
It is narrated by Ahmad, with a good sanad,on the authority of Ibn Mas'ood (ra), in a narration traced back to the Prophet himself, the following:


"Verily, the most wicked of people are those who, when the Hour overtakes them, are still alive, and those who take graves as places of worship." (Also Narrated by Abu Hatim in his Saheeh)

The prophet says not to make them places of worship. dont worship the graves. Nobody toold you to do that.

What I am saying is that you ask the prophet to ask on your behalf. Where does graves come into this?

 

[Ibn Abi Ahmed]

And who are you to decide that?

I have not said anything of my own and have provided proof. You have yet to provide any. Go back and read all my posts, i wont re post them here again.

The prophet says not to make them places of worship. dont worship the graves. Nobody toold you to do that.

What I am saying is that you ask the prophet to ask on your behalf. Where does graves come into this?

Actually you proved my point of Dua when you posted this:

Originally Posted by Muslim Soldier
Abu Dawood in his ‘Sunan’ narrates from the holy prophet (saw) who said: “There is no one who sends greetings upon me but that Allah makes his greetings reach me and I answer his greetings”

Shaykh Mansur Ali Nasif, Al Taj al-jamil li al – ‘usul fi Ahadith al-Rasul’ reports that Holy prophet said: “…send greetings upon me, for your greetings reaches me…”

He says Salams not Dua. You have yet to prove your words.

 

[M H Kahn]

No it isnt. Because it is like a beggar going to a King, and saying, By the love you have for your Son, i ask you for this and this.
His son has no place in the beggars reguest.

Likewise, the status of anyone else has no place in your Dua to Allah.

One who prays the above way, he thinks Allah is not sufficient for him. In other words, he disbelieves the Quranic ordainment that Allah is enough for a believer. Disbelieving a Quranic ordainment renders a person to be a disbeliever as per verses 44 of Surah Al-Mayedah:"..........therefore fear not men, but fear me, and sell not my signs for a miserable price. If any do fail to judge by (the light of) what Allah hath revealed, they are (no better than) Unbelievers."

This is not all; asking for something to Allah for the sake of somebody is an innovation by misguided humans and this obviously denies the Quranic ordainment that Allah does not depend on anything of His creation, rather the whole creation depends on Him. So, there is elements of 'shirk' and 'kufr' in the aforesaid suppliction that has been composed and spread by some misbelieving humans.

 

[Muslim Soldier]

Can you please tell me where we stand

Is one allowed to ask for others to ask on his behalf?
If they are dead then is it allowed?

 

[M H Kahn]

A typical reply for one who does not have an answer

This is the only answer a believer has to have. Advancing further will be crossing the limits set by Allah for a believer. Allah says: "The Messenger believeth in what hath been revealed to him from his Lord, as do the men of faith. Each one (of them) believeth in Allah, His angels, His books, and His messengers. "We make no distinction (they say) between one and another of His messengers." And they say: "We hear, and we obey: (We seek) Thy forgiveness, our Lord, and to Thee is the end of all journeys." [002.285]

 

[Muslim Soldier]

The Brother of Prophet Yusuf (as) asked their father to pray for their forgiveness.

An example of seeking forgiveness can be seen in the Holy Quran, Chapter of Yusuf, where the brothers of Prophet Yusuf (as) were ashamed of the act they had done, so they went to their father and said,

“They said: O our father! ask forgiveness of our faults for us, surely we were sinners, He said: I will ask for you forgiveness from my Lord; surely He is the Forgiving, the Merciful”.

Explained

When we tell our clergy/prophet to pray for us, we know in our hearts that the clergy/prophet cannot do anything unless Allah (swt) wants for it to happen, but we believe since he is a man of worship and spends more of his time in the way of Allah, his prayer might get accepted faster. This ideology again takes us back to Allah (swt). One may feel too ashamed of one’s bad actions to turn towards Allah (swt) for forgiveness. To make the forgiveness process a bit quicker he brings with him someone who is dearer to Allah (swt) through his actions and intentions. The above is an example from the Holy Quraan. The brothers of prophet Yusuf (a) could have asked directly from Allah (swt), but as they were so much ashamed of their bad action that needed a Wasila through whom if they ask him to pray to Allah (swt) for forgiveness on their behalf, they will be forgiven, and hence we find they approached a Godly man, a Prophet, Yakub (s) who was their father as well, and asked him, as we read above.
Therefore Quraan gives a lesson to be learnt and followed.