atheist logic

[czgibson]

Greetings,

What do you believe then?

I believe lots of things. If you are specifically referring to what I believe as opposed to the universe and life coming about by chance, then I would point to three things:

• The Big Bang
• Evolution by natural selection
• The merits of admitting when we don't know something

Peace

 

[ardianto]

There is no such thing as luck, chance, or natural selection. Our shortsightedness make us view it like that.

Natural selection is just a blind, empty belief, for the excuse to disbelieve in God. That is how I see it. If you say it is not guided or conscious, it is as if u say it is all random.

Extinction of some species is the evidence of natural selection. The difference between fossils and living creatures nowadays is the evidence of evolution.

Evolution and natural selection do really happen. And Allah arranged it to be happen to make new species get place in nature. Imagine if dinosaurs did not extinct. Could human survive if lived together with dinosaurs?.

 

[Pygoscelis]

And shaped "by environment"? What determines whether it should have fur or not in cold?

Mutation and natural selection. The ones that have fun live to make babies, so the next generation has more fur than the last did. Some from this 2nd generation have more fur than others, and they more often survive to have babies, so the 3rd generation has even more fur than the 2nd did, and so on. And every now and then the DNA is copied in such a way that it is changed, enabling something like more fur or more blubber insulation, etc, and those with that trait survive better and have more babies, so those traits over time become prominent int he population. Why is this so hard to understand or accept?

This can't happen mindlessly. But if you think so, then ok.

What I described above does not require a conscious mind directing it. Why would it? All you need is mutation and natural selection.

That is just like saying "given enough time I can make a human spawn by blowing up territory on sand! - It will mindlessly know how to assemble!"

This statement displays complete ignorance on what evolution theory is. You clearly don't understand what you claim to be dismissing, and after all of the explanation that has been given to you, including the pointing out of the flaws in the false analogy above (no replication, mutation or natural selection), I have to conclude that this ignorance is willful. Why do you refuse to at least learn what the theory says? Only then could you fairly dismiss it or try to explain it away. You could understand why what your muslim brother above pointed out is good evidence for evolution theory, and you could then try to poke holes in it and disprove it.

your belief in natural selection, etc. defies logic.

No. You refuse to engage in logic. You are showing all of the signs of fundamentalist dogmatism.

 

[Serinity]

Extinction of some species is the evidence of natural selection. The difference between fossils and living creatures nowadays is the evidence of evolution.

Evolution and natural selection do really happen. And Allah arranged it to be happen to make new species get place in nature. Imagine if dinosaurs did not extinct. Could human survive if lived together with dinosaurs?.

But I believe it is Allah that does it - not natural selection.

To me, they've just "substituted" god for natural selection. I know there is microevolution, but how it is done, ie. via natural selection, I disagree.
@Pygoscelis I do understand, but I disagree that it is natural selection. Who do you think that goes in and changes the genes? How does the gene know to do what it does, where did it get the instructions information from originally, where did the information come from, the coding? I believe it is Allah that does the whole thing.

Yes, I know there is microevolution, but I believe it is Allah that does the changing, not natural selection.

 

[Serinity]

In other words, it can be said that "Action" is another word for "Allah" or the "function of Allah". No matter how they respond to the question, they are simply substituting one word for another because of their disliking the word.

By what means does this occur? "Reality" "Nature" "It is how it is" "Action" "Power" "Energy" "Luck" "Chance" "Random" "Nothing", no matter what they say, whatever has the definition of ultimately doing it all or being responsible for it all, is synonymous to the definition we are giving to the term Allah.

In the end, its being fussy about word preferences and not trying to understand each other.

Yeah, cuz not a single gene can be changed except by Allah's will. We believe Allah did it, they believe whatever they believe. Khalas.

I'm not denying microevolution, cuz there are mutations, etc. I'm just saying it is Allah SWT, that changes the genes etc.

There is no macroevolution tho. And even if there was, it'd require a creator, imo.

I'd say our brain is one of the greatest evidences for God's existence. However, Allahu alam.

 

[ardianto]

But I believe it is Allah that does it - not natural selection.

Allah set the lives. But Allah set it through process and mechanism. In example, Allah make dry soil get water from rain. However, Allah does not make rain fall from nothing, but Allah make rain happen through process and mechanism. Water evaporate and turn into cloud, then cloud turn into water again, and rain happen.

Not different than natural selection that make some species extinct and the others adjust themselves with purpose to survive. Natural selection is a process and mechanism that created by Allah.

Should we reject science just because few things in science look contradictory with Islam?. No. But we must see it as sign that Allah want us to think and find the answer of mysteries in the universe.

 

[Pygoscelis]

I do understand

Then why do you keep saying it is like a tornado and some sand knocking about and turning into a car? The use of this analogy is a clear and blatant display of ignorance (it lacks replication, mutation, AND natural selection)... If you are not ignorant, why use it to make it look like you are? It is right up there with people who say "If we came from monkeys, why are there still monkeys?" lol... in case anybody doesn't know, we didn't come from monkeys, we just share a common ancestor.

but I disagree that it is natural selection. Who do you think that goes in and changes the genes?

Do a little research and you can learn. It can be a point mutation caused by radiation, or it can be lateral gene transfer, etc. And if you are saying that God steps in and makes all of these mutations happen, the obvious question is why, since most of them are in no way helpful to the species, and are often fatal. They certainly do not look like a conscious mind choosing between them, in favour of ones that are beneficial or looking to shape the future path of the species in one way or another. It is only the interaction with natural selection that does that. Natural selection being nothing more than which of these the environment allows to thrive and reproduce to fill one niche or another.

where did it get the instructions information from originally, where did the information come from, the coding?

That has nothing to do with evolution. Perhaps you could take the position that Eric H and ardianto appear to be taking, taking no issue with evolution, but claiming their respective Gods set the wheels in motion so that it happens. Your argument would then be with abiogenesis (how the organic arose from the inorganic), not evolution. Science has not explained abiogenesis as well as it has evolution, so there is a bit of a gap for your God to fill there, until of course we do explain it. God of the gaps reasoning isn't going to convince many who don't already believe as you do though.

Yes, I know there is microevolution, but I believe it is Allah that does the changing, not natural selection.

What is "micro" evolution supposed to mean? Evolution is evolution.

 

[Serinity]

Do a little research and you can learn. It can be a point mutation caused by radiation, or it can be lateral gene transfer, etc. And if you are saying that God steps in and makes all of these mutations happen, the obvious question is why, since most of them are in no way helpful to the species, and are often fatal. They certainly do not look like a conscious mind choosing between them, in favour of ones that are beneficial or looking to shape the future path of the species in one way or another. It is only the interaction with natural selection that does that. Natural selection being nothing more than which of these the environment allows to thrive and reproduce to fill one niche or another.

You do know that Allah creates everything indirectly? Ie. He conceals His powers. No matter how much mankind try to find out how things are made, they'll just come closer to the means of how Allah created it.
May Allah forgive me if I said anything wrong. Ameen.
Take fire.

As kids we thought fire burns because it is hot.. As we get more knowledge we come to know that it is because of z or y.

Point being, the more knowledge we get, the more we get to know how Allah made it.

That has nothing to do with evolution. Perhaps you could take the position that Eric H and ardianto appear to be taking, taking no issue with evolution, but claiming their respective Gods set the wheels in motion so that it happens. Your argument would then be with abiogenesis (how the organic arose from the inorganic), not evolution. Science has not explained abiogenesis as well as it has evolution, so there is a bit of a gap for your God to fill there, until of course we do explain it. God of the gaps reasoning isn't going to convince many who don't already believe as you do though.

Well, as I said in the previous quote, we are just getting to know more how Allah does things.

In elementary school we may have thought that something like the sun shined, just because (without any reasoning) ... but as we gain more knowledge we get to know more how Allah created things.

you are simply discovering deeper how Allah made things..

 

[Pygoscelis]

you are simply discovering deeper how Allah made things..

So atheist scientists know Allah better than pious Muslims?

 

[Serinity]

So atheist scientists know Allah better than pious Muslims?

No, that is not what I am saying, you know how Allah made things, not who Allah is. you'll only know that by reading the Quran.

 

[Pygoscelis]

lol I'm too stupid for them to talk to apparently. :heated:

You're not stupid. You are just posting content that doesn't particularly draw much of a response from me. I engaged your train of thought as far as it took me on the previous pages.

What is it that you're calling "Life"?

I think you know what I meant. But questions like this seem to be material for an entire separate thread if you want to get philosophical (is fire alive?) or pedantic about it.

 

[Eric H]

Greetings and peace be with you Pygoscelis;

What I described above does not require a conscious mind directing it. Why would it? All you need is mutation and natural selection.

It almost seems that the ToE is not that important, it just seems a means to try and prove there is no God.

No. You refuse to engage in logic. You are showing all of the signs of fundamentalist dogmatism.

You are using logic to prove atheism, so we are not convinced that atheism is correct. I think this now places the burden of proof on you, we need more evidence that evolution happened purely through natural causes.

In the spirit of searching for God.

Eric

 

[Pygoscelis]

It almost seems that the ToE is not that important, it just seems a means to try and prove there is no God.

It doesn't disprove God. Nothing can disprove something that is unfalsifiable. It can only disprove particular claims about creation (ie, the biblical account), and never a deist conception of God.

You are using logic to prove atheism

I am doing no such thing.

we need more evidence that evolution happened purely through natural causes.

No. What you need is evidence that a God is required for or somehow fits into evolution, or in the case of an Abrahabic sort of omni-benevolent and omni-powerful God with a plan for humanity etc, at least some consistency with it. All science so far hasn't found that, so I am left with no reason to believe it.

 

[czgibson]

Greetings,

Sorry if I missed your question. I got that idea from books and websites?

Books and websites? That's your response? :hmm:

I didn't understand that your question was more than rhetorical.

I can't see how it could be a rhetorical question, but never mind. We obviously disagree about that.

Also, I didn't use the words incorrectly. Ultimate does mean what I said it means as one of its definitions and I clearly defined what I meant by what I was saying.

Do you not think so?

How silly of me. I now see that when you said "first", I should have immediately interpreted what you meant as "last".

Now what are you doing on a Muslim website?

I have been lucky enough to be a member of this board for nearly eleven years. In that time I have been made to feel welcome by most of the members here. There have been some occasional unpleasant moments, but they have been outweighed by some of the more productive discussions that I've been involved with here.

I'm here because I think dialogue between Muslims and non-Muslims is very important. Where I live, in Dorset in the UK, it is difficult to find opportunities to talk with Muslims on a day-to-day basis, and this forum makes it possible for me. I think it would be terrible if Muslims and non-Muslims did not talk to each other at all, and for as long as I'm welcome here I hope to continue developing my understanding of Islam and acquaintance with some of the people who practise it.

Sorry that you felt your question was important enough to notice, I didn't realize you couldn't figure out an answer for that. So my answer is books and websites. I thought maybe you had heard of the idea of there being causation, things being determined by something else and something else etc. Perhaps not.

I have indeed heard of causation, but I'm afraid that simply saying "books and websites" in support of what is a deeply contentious claim is not a sufficient basis for the vast edifice of ideas that you intend to construct upon it.

Claiming that "Philosophy" as a whole is agreed that there is a first cause is deeply strange. For one thing, philosophy is a subject studied by many people from many different cultures with many different ideas. To assume that they are all agreed on an issue like causality is simply fanciful. Notable philosophers who would disagree with your assertion about there being a necessary first cause include David Hume, Immanuel Kant, Friedrich Nietzsche and Bertrand Russell.

It doesn't seem like an Atheist coming to a place called Islamicboard really has the intention of comprehending anything.

You are free to make whatever assumptions you like about me.

Your opinions or responses can be used to refine what and how I say what I say. On the other hand, you may not gain anything from what I say, because you don't seem to understand the most simple statements such as "It depends on what you call God".

I don't know what grounds you have for assuming this, but again, never mind. I am not at all offended by your insults.

Perhaps your idea is that words all have the same meaning in everyone's minds?

Unless there is broad agreement on the meanings of words, then communicating ideas is difficult. The more complex the idea, the more the difficulty increases.

If you find it difficult and are complaining about reading my posts due to their length, you can simply ignore me as you've suggested above,

It's beginning to look like the most sensible option.

Anyone who is understands philosophy will be able to go through the steps of what I am saying carefully.

I have a Master's degree in Philosophy. While I grant that that doesn't automatically and necessarily make me someone who understands philosophy, I believe I'm more acquainted with the subject than many people are, including you.

Peace

 

[ardianto]

There is no dispute between science and Islam, science is a creation of Allah.

Allah makes the rain drop, and can change the mechanism or our interpretation of it is in an instant. Allah can make it appear that the rain is falling upwards rather than downwards and make everyone say "of course, that is how it always happens, what, did you think it falls down rather than up? How ridiculous! Look at it!" That is because Allah creates all these delusions freely and can change them freely and we may not even be aware if such a change has occurred or not if Allah does not inform us. So to become too absorbed in a "system" can be folly, except as far as it pragmatically can help us now.

It is Allah that makes the fire hot, and Allah can make the fire cold. The fire is not "automatically hot", but it is Allah who is responsible for the image and the impression and interaction in every detail. That is to say "what we call Allah, is that which is responsible for every detail of experience and phenomenon".

Science is created by human as the way to understand the things that happen in the universe. What Allah created is the human ability of thinking that makes them can create science.

Allah can make something impossible happen. It's called miracle. But if Allah made rainfall upward rather than downward, then there must be a natural mechanism that make it happened.

Allah make the nature run by system is to make human can understand how the nature works, and then human can 'use' the nature to support their live.

 

[Pygoscelis]

^ You are quoting text that was not directed towards you, and then demanding a response to something not whatsoever related?

I think I can sum up what you've written to the following: There must be a first cause, because you choose to see it that way, can't wrap your mind around it not being that way, and want to pretend that all philosophers agree it is so. And even if there isn't a first cause, then the chain of events going back into infinity is what you decide to label as "first cause", so then there is a first cause *facepalm*. It is a nice tautology void of any logic, reason, or evidence of any sort. And then you decide to call yourself a Muslim as opposed to any other religion that believes in a creator God for no stated additional reason. I don't know why you think this would elicit much response or discussion.

See how I fit that all into one concise and clear paragraph for you? If you mean something else in your walls of Deepak Chopra level word salad, you have utterly failed to communicate it. And I see little reason to continue further with you.

 

[Eric H]

Greetings and peace be with you Pygoscelis;

And even if there isn't a first cause, then the chain of events going back into infinity is what you decide to label as "first cause", so then there is a first cause *facepalm*. It is a nice tautology void of any logic, reason, or evidence of any sort.

It is a nice tautology void of any logic, reason, or evidence of any sort, because none seems to exist, all we have are arguments. An infinite regress of causes, something with no beginning, or something coming from nothing all seem to defy science, logic and reason.

We are here, I just have faith and trust that God created the universe and life, but there is no convincing evidence to back up my beliefs.

Despite all our diverse beliefs, we are all created by the same God, the same God hears all our prayers. We have a duty to care for God’s creation that has to mean caring for each other despite our differences.

In the spirit of praying for justice for all people.

Eric

 

[Serinity]

It doesn't disprove God. Nothing can disprove something that is unfalsifiable. It can only disprove particular claims about creation (ie, the biblical account), and never a deist conception of God.



I am doing no such thing.



No. What you need is evidence that a God is required for or somehow fits into evolution, or in the case of an Abrahabic sort of omni-benevolent and omni-powerful God with a plan for humanity etc, at least some consistency with it. All science so far hasn't found that, so I am left with no reason to believe it.

I see where you are coming from.

May Allah guide you and inspire in you proof. Ameen. We know what God wants from His revelations, we know God exists because of the creation. We know that there is only One God, cause there is only evidence for 1 God. saying otherwise, and I'd require proof, a miracle or a sign. Otherwise it is conjecture.

Whatever comes from us, of our imagination, can't be true. If I think of a fish with wings and a sword. It is a mythical fish, cause we don't see evidence for such.

I do understand where you come from, and I ask Allah to guide you. Ameen.

I believe in Allah cause of the evidence I see around. you may not see it, perhaps the problem is you?
Why do you limit yourself to science? Do you believe science can answer everything? I don't think so. Science is limited, since it is observation based on our senses, which are limited. The equipment we use, are limited.

We have to think with the evidence we have in front of us. I don't know about Allah, except for what He revealed in the Quran.

But there is a fine line of being a materialist and arrogant, and delusional and arrogant.

Become too materialistic, and you become narrowminded.

And whenever you are in doubt about Allah know that whatever comes from you of assumptions - it is false.

Allah knows best.

 

[Pygoscelis]

Did you even comprehend any of it, I tried to keep it very simple. Do you have a PhD? I just wondered since the last guy had a Master's and you seem to understand even less.

Yes, call the readers idiots. That will get you far. Or perhaps it has something to do with your giant walls of text nobody will want to read, your cryptic word salad, or your new insistence of writing like you think you are a monkey....

Whatever it is, you are coming across as none of interesting, illuminating or entertaining, so there is no reason to read you any further.

 

[Pygoscelis]

I believe in Allah cause of the evidence I see around. you may not see it, perhaps the problem is you?

That is possible. Maybe I am spiritually blind; born without a sensory capacity for Gods and ghosts. If so, you should be able to show it with some evidence, or at least some coherent argument beyond bare faith, wishful thinking, and god of the gaps assumptions.

Do you believe science can answer everything?

No. It can't. But it is all we have to get at truth. "Revelation", "Faith" and other forms of fantasy and wishful thinking may be comforting but are useless for finding truth.

But there is a fine line of being a materialist and arrogant, and delusional and arrogant.

It is arrogant to presume that you are the key concern, or even a small concern, of the all powerful creator of the universe, and that he has a special relationship with you and a special message for you.

Become too materialistic, and you become narrowminded.

I am not the one that has been refusing to address the posts above on evolution, including one by a fellow muslim who brought up some very good evidence. Nor am I the one that claims to be perfectly certain of anything. Science is always open to change and revision. Religion is dogmatic and inflexible. Which one is narrowminded again?

Allah knows best

Unless Allah knows nothing, because Allah is imaginary. I see no evidence otherwise.