Why can't atheists just be wrong?

[jabeady]

Carl Sagan. I love his writings.

Excellent! Have you read his "The Scientific Experience, Personal Notes on the Search for God"?

 

[Little_Lion]

Excellent! Have you read his "The Scientific Experience, Personal Notes on the Search for God"?

I haven't, but I should. I've been thinking about going to the library soon because I need some books to take a break in my studies, and I should pick it up if they have it.

 

[Search]

:bism: (In the Name of God, the Most Beneficent, the Most Merciful)

In Islam, medicine and religion are Alhamdhullilah (thanks, praise, and credit to God) not mutually exclusive; so, no worries. I know that some religions do have this kind of conflict, and I'm sorry for that. (Btw, I'm not saying that Islamic history at some points might not have had loons put forward conspiracy theories about some type of new type of medicine.) That said, generally, Islam and Islamic history have been great about using medicine and encouraging use of medicines for healing.

And well, I don't have any children yet as I'm not as yet married; however, even without you having said so, I have always been of the mind that I want my children to InshaAllah (God-willing) know that the vast majority of people are good people regardless of their religion or lack thereof and also that they should know not to judge others and always be concerned more about their own intentions and actions than someone else's intentions and actions.

Btw, I don't know if I ever did or not, but I do want to take a moment to thank you. I don't know if you perceive this about yourself or not, but I do perceive you to be a decent human being who did the fair thing which is to seek out Muslims as you didn't want to cast an unfair judgment or engage in broadbrush. I appreciate that about you, and I also want to thank you for that very much. That is a rare trait and a rarer thing to see in the world. So, thank you.

All I ask is that you vaccinate your children, and educate them to believe that the vast majority of people are good and decent, regardless of their religious views.

 

[jabeady]

I haven't, but I should. I've been thinking about going to the library soon because I need some books to take a break in my studies, and I should pick it up if they have it.

You can get the electronic copy on Amazon.

 

[jabeady]

:bism: (In the Name of God, the Most Beneficent, the Most Merciful)

In Islam, medicine and religion are Alhamdhullilah (thanks, praise, and credit to God) not mutually exclusive; so, no worries. I know that some religions do have this kind of conflict, and I'm sorry for that. (Btw, I'm not saying that Islamic history at some points might not have had loons put forward conspiracy theories about some type of new type of medicine.) That said, generally, Islam and Islamic history have been great about using medicine and encouraging use of medicines for healing.

And well, I don't have any children yet as I'm not as yet married; however, even without you having said so, I have always been of the mind that I want my children to InshaAllah (God-willing) know that the vast majority of people are good people regardless of their religion or lack thereof and also that they should know not to judge others and always be concerned more about their own intentions and actions than someone else's intentions and actions.

Btw, I don't know if I ever did or not, but I do want to take a moment to thank you. I don't know if you perceive this about yourself or not, but I do perceive you to be a decent human being who did the fair thing which is to seek out Muslims as you didn't want to cast an unfair judgment or engage in broadbrush. I appreciate that about you, and I also want to thank you for that very much. That is a rare trait and a rarer thing to see in the world. So, thank you.

Aw, shucks Maam.

 

[kritikvernunft]

Some of us don't have a choice if we want to be social. When you're the only Muslim in 100 miles you tend to make friends of every persuasion, though you look for the best of each. I do count friends from Wiccans, Christians, and atheists, though.

I do the same. I can only interact with whomever happens to be available. Unfortunately, Muslims are few and far between here, and the few around, don't even speak English. Still, whatever their faith, I will always slag off every possible Statist views that tries to extend, overrule, or abrogate Divine Law. I will not hesitate to repudiate anybody who treats the government as a partner next to above our only true Master. So, when needed, I will underline that the government that they so happily voted for, is evil, and that they are accomplices to the government's depravity, and that all their newly-invented laws only apply to themselves.

 

[jabeady]

I knew when I came here that I'd be regarded as a possible convert. It's one of the hazards of being curious about the world in which I live, although proselytizing is largely a religious hazard.

So I came here seeking information and with certain expectations. One of these expectations is that as long as I obey the laws of hospitality, then so will my hosts. All this means is that good manners will prevail and that respect will be answered with respect.

I do not recall anyone here accusing me of either bad manners or a lack of respect. It follows, then, that I have behaved myself reasonably well. What does not follow is that I would or should be receptive to or deserve a so-called "bad cop" argumentation. I do not in fact find such a presentation at all persuasive, for several reasons. And, to be sure, neither do I pay much attention to friendship in the pursuit of information.

To restate the obvious, I am an atheist. For me, personally, this means that religious belief is opinion unsupported by evidence. However, I am also a skeptic; this means that I strive to be evidence-driven, and consequently that I am open to being shown that I am wrong. If an enemy has the facts, I will adopt his position; if a friend does not have the facts, I will disagree.

To show me that I'm wrong is quite simple, but may not be easy. Show me. If you want to convert me, show me your god. Give me facts and evidence that cannot be accounted for by any other explanation than your god.

NOTE: Above, I said *your* god. Remember, from my viewpoint, I'm in a large religious shopping center where deities are a dime a dozen, and I'm deciding whether and which one to buy into. Humanity has worshiped thousands, perhaps hundreds of thousands, of gods throughout history, and some of the oldest are still being worshipped. You have two jobs: convince me that God exists, and convince me that your god is God. Both tasks will require evidence, not interpretation; you supply the evidence and I will interpret it.

I don't think I'm being unreasonable. If you are right, I have an immortal soul whose eternal fate is in jeopardy. If you are right, following the wrong god is no different than following no god. It therefore seems reasonable to take the utmost care in committing the fate of my eternal soul to the care of any particular god. Prove to me that yours is that god.

I've been asking these questions for some time, and not just of various religious folk. I've also addressed them to the cosmos at large, and I'm still waiting for an answer. Perhaps someone should remind God that no answer is an answer.

 

[M.I.A.]

...what an entirely unreasonable question.

...how could anybody ever show you their God?

thats insane!

you would be better of learning to bake a cake..

although...

practise makes perfect.

...and what if you make the perfect cake..

and nobody eats it?

what then?

the cake exists.. the recipe exists.. the baker exists.. the ingredients exist..

Maybe you should turn to science..

because there...


self baking cakes are a thing.


learn a profession..

stop asking unreasonable questions..

I'd like to think that OPs question is entirely reasonable..

because I've tried baking from youtube videos.



..although most of the time.. there is always room for improving the cake..

if you don't kid yourself.


if there is only room for one cake... then it really should be the best cake in the world.

cake.


....I'm glad you didn't say "sell me this pen"

 

[jabeady]

...what an entirely unreasonable question.

...how could anybody ever show you their God?

thats insane!

Why? If your god's creations are all around us, shouldn't your god be all around us? Did god create all this, then go away? Seems to me, either he's here or or he isn't.

you would be better of learning to bake a cake..

although...

practise makes perfect.

...and what if you make the perfect cake..

and nobody eats it?

what then?

the cake exists.. the recipe exists.. the baker exists.. the ingredients exist..

Maybe you should turn to science..

because there...


self baking cakes are a thing.

Isn't comparing your god to a cake blasphemy?

learn a profession.

Had two or three. Now I'm retired.

 

[M.I.A.]

...

.....ah well,

sit here all day thinking about it.

the cakes still here but the cookies have been given to an...

EX-convict.

ain't that a thing.

what a question..



so, retirement...

What's that like?

one bag of rice, one scotch bonnet pepper, two apples..

and now two containers and three cookies.


...you weren't a drone operator were you?


also should have give him the cake right?

 

[Reminder]

Why? If your god's creations are all around us, shouldn't your god be all around us? Did god create all this, then go away? Seems to me, either he's here or or he isn't.

Isn't comparing your god to a cake blasphemy?

Had two or three. Now I'm retired.

You must learn more about Islam.

If you really want to know the truth about God.

Most of what you say demonstrates a lack of understanding.

 

[jabeady]

...

.....ah well,

sit here all day thinking about it.

the cakes still here but the cookies have been given to an...

EX-convict.

ain't that a thing.

what a question..



so, retirement...

What's that like?

one bag of rice, one scotch bonnet pepper, two apples..

and now two containers and three cookies.


...you weren't a drone operator were you?


also should have give him the cake right?

What are you on? Whatever it is, I'd like some.

 

[Serinity]

Respect my religion, and I will respect yours (respect does not equal acceptance, it is merely tolerating)

I believe in Islam. you believe in Atheism. I do not like my religion to be ridiculed, and you do not want to be ridiculed/hated for your atheism. Although I dislike your atheism, as it is preventing you from accepting the Truth.

Do not disrespect my religion, and I won't disrespect you for your beliefs.

I wish for you, as all muslims do, to become Muslim. But conversion by force is, AFAIK, haram/not permissible. nor would I like for you to force me to become what I do not want to become or to become what I don't believe in (atheism)

To me my religion, to you, yours. Truth may hurt, and should never be taken as offence......

may Allah :swt: forgive me if I erred or said anything wrong or unislamic. Ameen.
And Allah :swt: knows best.

 

[jabeady]

You must learn more about Islam.

If you really want to know the truth about God.

Most of what you say demonstrates a lack of understanding.

So instruct me.

Or isn't that your job?

 

[kritikvernunft]

For me, personally, this means that religious belief is opinion unsupported by evidence.

The first reason why requiring that all statements should be provable, is a bit of a stretch, is because the greatest breakthrough in mathematics in the twentieth century, i.e. Gödel's First Incompleteness Theorem, proves that in every system that rests on provability, and of which the associated language is sufficiently rich, it will be possible to express statements that are true but not provable. Hence, provability can impossibly be a prerequisite for truth.

A second reason is that only mathematics are provable. Science, for example, is not. Science is only testable (=falsifiable). But then again, constructivism is utterly rejected in mathematics. Hence, mathematics will not say anything about the real world, which is indeed the domain of science and testability. Demanding that every statement would have to be testable, however, is also unreasonable, because if there are statements that are true but not provable, there are a fortiori also statements that are true but not testable.

We can use Tarski's Undefinability Theorem to define what true actually means:

The undefinability theorem shows that this encoding cannot be done for semantical concepts such as truth. It shows that no sufficiently rich interpreted language can represent its own semantics. A corollary is that any metalanguage capable of expressing the semantics of some object language must have expressive power exceeding that of the object language. The metalanguage includes primitive notions, axioms, and rules absent from the object language, so that there are theorems provable in the metalanguage not provable in the object language.

According to undefinability theorem, true means provable in the metamodel, i.e. the model about the model, but not in the model at hand. Therefore, it is simply nonsensical to ask for evidence/provability for a statement that is fundamentally true. The very fact that it is true, precludes the possibility to prove it. The reverse is also true. If the statement is provable, it will not be fundamentally true. Its provability is just a side effect of the construction of the arbitrary axiomatic system in which it happens to be provable.

But then again, there are at least two well-known axiomatic models in which the existence of a first cause, the singular God, is derived as a provable statement. The first by Aristotle, Physics, book 7 and 8, and the second, the ontological proof by Gödel. Religion typically does not do that. Religion will typically consider the singular God as provable in a higher metamodel, and therefore true but not provable in its own model. Therefore, it is indeed possible to construct and describe an abstract universe (Aristotle) or a second-order meta-universe (Gödel) in which a singular God is provable, but they do not represent constructivist statements about our own universe. Since, it is all math, it necessarily stays clear from constructivism.

Governed by the sometimes difficult requirement to remain provable, math rarely provides a short and simple answer. That is the reason why this is not a short or simple answer to your otherwise simplistic question.

 

[M.I.A.]

..you wouldn't like it.

trust me.

if all objects are created..

then they mean a hell of a lot more than you think they do.


....or not.


sooner or later either one of us will blaspheme..

just depends on who's listening.

 

[Serinity]

So instruct me.

Or isn't that your job?

Or job is to warn - to guide - that only Allah can.

Read Qur'aan and hadiths, and the Seerah. and may you be guided to Islam. Ameen.

And Allah :swt: knows best.

 

[Huzaifah ibn Adam]

...

.....ah well,

sit here all day thinking about it.

the cakes still here but the cookies have been given to an...

EX-convict.

ain't that a thing.

what a question..



so, retirement...

What's that like?

one bag of rice, one scotch bonnet pepper, two apples..

and now two containers and three cookies.


...you weren't a drone operator were you?


also should have give him the cake right?

I'm telling you, brother M.I.A. is a true Yoda.

Lots of meaning behind what he says, though it seems incomprehensible.

 

[M.I.A.]

I'm telling you, brother M.I.A. is a true Yoda.

Lots of meaning behind what he says, though it seems incomprehensible.

who would you rather be.. George lucas or yoda?

...someone I know tipped me..


I'm done for the day.


...so next time I have to let him off the same amount.


wouldn't it be better if you could just give things away?

...I ain't got the balls to do it though.


ahhhhee..I lost my composure.

as marcus auralious would say.. equanimity

I have no idea?

 

[jabeady]

I'm telling you, brother M.I.A. is a true Yoda.

Lots of meaning behind what he says, though it seems incomprehensible.

True wisdom is never incomprehensible. Wisdom that is incomprehensible is, by definition, meaningless.