Why don't Muslims respect the rights of non Muslims and "heretics"?

[Mustafa16]

there is no smoke without fire....

it's a false accusation. period.

 

[azc]

http://hizmetnews.com/18603/fethullah-gulen-view-israel/ https://www.opendemocracy.net/osman-softic/what-is-fethullah-gülen’s-real-mission

 

[sister herb]

I think the title should be "why don't people respect the rights of other people".

I'm unsure why religion is brought into it. I am sure if you researched far and wide, most religions have been perpetrators against another religion at some point.

The title makes it sound like Muslims are nothing but a bunch of savages who go round battering people and pinching everything they own and killing everything in sight which is completely untrue.

I agree that the title is wrong. But it should to be something like "Gulenists vs Erdogan supporters". OP goes again and again back to this subject and it makes discussion hard to follow or take part when others aren´t sure what´s the subject we should discuss.

 

[Simple_Person]

I agree that the title is wrong. But it should to be something like "Gulenists vs Erdogan supporters". OP goes again and again back to this subject and it makes discussion hard to follow or take part when others aren´t sure what´s the subject we should discuss.

Funny thing is, both the groups in general claim each of the groups follow Islam and both of the groups have been influenced by Said Nursî. However what Said Nursî was advocating and what these both groups are advocating has become totally something else. While Said Nursî wanted Islam and science as those by definition don't contradict one another, both the Gulen movement and AKP instead give the mask of Islam..while promoting nationalism by majority. Just look at Erdogan. Back when AKP slowly became popular one could say..they are following Islam. Now look at Erdogan, all you see is nationalism. The same with Gulen movement. This is for example the fitna for them. When you suddenly get hold of power, the REAL nature of a human being is shown. By consensus i think we Muslims agree that we Muslims should take our distance from ISIS. While dictators in the Middle East were and still are supporting them. This also being AKP. Gulen movement being no better. As long as a movement is trying to promote nationalism in any kind, this by default is a no go. It is like saying..drink this glass of water (education), but every glass of water by default contains 1 drop of oil (nationalism). (which means it ruins all the water in that glass.)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Said_Nursî

 

[azc]

Hiding behind the ruse of ''oppressed - gulenets'' he is attacking on Islam, Muslims and even prophet s.a.w in recent threads.

I agree that the title is wrong. But it should to be something like "Gulenists vs Erdogan supporters". OP goes again and again back to this subject and it makes discussion hard to follow or take part when others aren´t sure what´s the subject we should discuss.

 

[Simple_Person]

Hiding behind the ruse of ''oppressed - gulenets'' he is attacking on Islam, Muslims and even prophet s.a.w in recent threads.

A person can say X, but by intention meaning Y. When somebody digs in about the X, you can see Y instead. So you saying attacking Islam, Muslims or Rasullah(saws), sorry bro..but this topic especially when you began to dig in, it showed rather ..whole argument of AKP vs Gulen movement instead (the Y thing and not the X thing)

Now knowing this. Has this something to do with Islam, Muslims and Rasullah(saws)? Looking from all kind of perspectives i do not see anything that even somehow refers to it.

So i guess for all Erdogan supporters and all Gulen supporter go and gather and have your separate topic or maybe even in this topic but change the topic name to "Erdogan vs Gulen". That way islam, Muslims and Rasullah(saws) have nothing to do with it. .

 

[azc]

A person can say X, but by intention meaning Y. When somebody digs in about the X, you can see Y instead. So you saying attacking Islam, Muslims or Rasullah(saws), sorry bro..but this topic especially when you began to dig in, it showed rather ..whole argument of AKP vs Gulen movement instead (the Y thing and not the X thing)Now knowing this. Has this something to do with Islam, Muslims and Rasullah(saws)? Looking from all kind of perspectives i do not see anything that even somehow refers to it.So i guess for all Erdogan supporters and all Gulen supporter go and gather and have your separate topic or maybe even in this topic but change the topic name to "Erdogan vs Gulen". That way islam, Muslims and Rasullah(saws) have nothing to do with it. .

I searched the thread but it has been deleted by mod otherwise I could show you... Just wait I'll point out if he starts such threads again

 

[Simple_Person]

I searched the thread but it has been deleted by mod otherwise I could show you... Just wait I'll point out if he starts such threads again

Often when some people are being oppressed they say things that by logic, rationality and reason don't make sense. For example i as a Kurd myself, witness and hear Kurds blaming Islam for their oppression. While logic, rationality and reason says Islam has NOTHING to do with it. Islam in fact is on the side of the oppressed and not of the oppressor. So the oppressors are rather the people who claim they are Muslims and are doing the oppression.

So if indeed this is the case as you say it is, i think his argument misses rather some logic, rationality and reason. Erdogan says ..Islam this and Islam that. But his actions says something that have NOTHING to do with Islam. So even if he blames Islam, that would be a very weak argument. Instead he rather has to blame Erdogan for the Gulen prosecution. I have NOTHING to do with Erdogan or Gulen. If they murder each other..i do not care. Because neither one of the two groups really is trying to represent Islam in the smallest matter. What you see is really the grasp of power and control over Turkey and the Turks. What has this seriously to do with Islam, Muslims or Rasullah(saws)?

 

[sister herb]

I don´t think the meaning is attack against Islam. Human right situation in Turkey is worrying and being concerned about it doesn´t mean anyone is against Islam. It of course may look like if someone is think that Erdogan and his followers represent "pure Islamic views" but ather all, he is politician and his ways to rule look more or less suspicious.

I have read before in here opinions that Erdogan really is the true friend of Islam (mostly as he has supported women to use hijab) but if ít´s true that he has thrown many of his political opponents and many others to the prison, his "pure Islamic methods" might not be so pure at all.

Well, as title of the thread might be wrong, I am not sure did I just wrote off topic or not.

 

[Simple_Person]

I don´t think the meaning is attack against Islam. Human right situation in Turkey is worrying and being concerned about it doesn´t mean anyone is against Islam. It of course may look like if someone is think that Erdogan and his followers represent "pure Islamic views" but ather all, he is politician and his ways to rule look more or less suspicious.

I have read before in here opinions that Erdogan really is the true friend of Islam (mostly as he has supported women to use hijab) but if ít´s true that he has thrown many of his political opponents and many others to the prison, his "pure Islamic methods" might not be so pure at all.

Well, as title of the thread might be wrong, I am not sure did I just wrote off topic or not.

Sister, as an advice please don't take "human rights" seriously. Nobody gives a one thought about human rights. When a country loses in their struggle to meet their interests, THEN they suddenly talk about human rights. To give you a example. You think what is happening in Turkey is just recently? This has been happening for almost 100 years. Prosecution of many people. Everybody who speaks against the tyrant, the person is thrown in jail. Everybody who has another opinion and speaks this in public that isn't like the masses of the people living there is thrown in jail.

The question however we must ask our selves is why suddenly now have we started hearing about?

That is because Turkey is objecting the interests of the west. In the past Turkey's interests were the same as western interests. However Turkey with Erdogan wants to become also a super power and they have shown this clearly. Erdogan wants to restart Ottoman rule kind of mentality under his control. As he knows the majority in Turkey as well in the Middle East are Muslims..so using this support to gain what he wants. ..but not really Islamic Caliphate..rather Turkish Caliphate under their kind of "Turkish Islam". Which is, as long as you say what i want to hear..you are a "good Muslim" =_=!.

So forget about it. Human rights stuff happen everywhere not only in Turkey. In the US if you speak the truth you are branded as a terrorist. In EU if you speak the truth you are branded as a terrorist. Why don't we hear about this? Media. All propaganda, that don't tell you what is going on.

Good documentary is "Dirty Wars (2013)" that i would recommend you to watch.

 

[sister herb]

Thanks about your advice but it´s quite too late for me. I have been human rights activist last 25 years or by other words - labeled as terrorist last 25 years. If I have to speak against acts of so-called democratic west when they violate human rights I don´t hesitate to do so but as well, I don´t hesitate to criticize human rights violation made by those co-called Islamic leaders.

Enemies of humanity - just same from which part of the world or ideology they come from - are also my enemies.

But of course, talking about human right violations is always also part of the political game. And in political games timing is very important.

 

[azc]

Often when some people are being oppressed they say things that by logic, rationality and reason don't make sense. For example i as a Kurd myself, witness and hear Kurds blaming Islam for their oppression. While logic, rationality and reason says Islam has NOTHING to do with it. Islam in fact is on the side of the oppressed and not of the oppressor. So the oppressors are rather the people who claim they are Muslims and are doing the oppression. So if indeed this is the case as you say it is, i think his argument misses rather some logic, rationality and reason. Erdogan says ..Islam this and Islam that. But his actions says something that have NOTHING to do with Islam. So even if he blames Islam, that would be a very weak argument. Instead he rather has to blame Erdogan for the Gulen prosecution. I have NOTHING to do with Erdogan or Gulen. If they murder each other..i do not care. Because neither one of the two groups really is trying to represent Islam in the smallest matter. What you see is really the grasp of power and control over Turkey and the Turks. What has this seriously to do with Islam, Muslims or Rasullah(saws)?

the thread title was something like ''my father rejects the hadith'' and herein he wanted to prove that ma'azAllah prophet s.a.w preached violence, captivated children and got killed them, married by force, punishment of apostasy is unjust etc... Let him read him my post then see his comments... The thread didn't pertain to what is going on in turkey...

 

[Simple_Person]

the thread title was something like ''my father rejects the hadith'' and herein he wanted to prove that ma'azAllah prophet s.a.w preached violence, captivated children and got killed them, married by force, punishment of apostasy is unjust etc... Let him read him my post then see his comments... The thread didn't pertain to what is going on in turkey...

These are your words that you claim he has said, so excuse me but i cannot take your word for it. IF..that indeed is what it is..to people like that Muslim or non-Muslim..I say to these people stay exactly how you are. Keep believing in what you are believing. And a good day.

Honesty and dishonesty has no religion or race. If somebody comes with such a claim, this shows already that that certain individual has made up their mind already. Doesn't matter how much time you spend on them.

If you do not understand a hadith because you understand the hadith as if it is promoting violence you come and ask people guys..what is up with this? How i understand this ..it is as if it is promoting violence..can somebody comment on this. Just like the Qur'an ahadith have also their story. Narration chain, to the time to the situation, to the words lost in translation, shaheeh or not etc. etc.

So whatever it might be, if it was in the past and this indeed was true as you stated, Allah(swt) knows best how his mindset is right now. People may say something but 1 week later they can change their mind on something. However the comment/topic might still exist. That is why when i have a discussion and i am wrong. I remove/change my original comment and also thank the person who has educated/corrected me on that subject. That way nobody attacks me on something that belonged to the ignorant me of the past.

 

[azc]

These are your words that you claim he has said, so excuse me but i cannot take your word for it. IF..that indeed is what it is..to people like that Muslim or non-Muslim..I say to these people stay exactly how you are. Keep believing in what you are believing. And a good day.Honesty and dishonesty has no religion or race. If somebody comes with such a claim, this shows already that that certain individual has made up their mind already. Doesn't matter how much time you spend on them. If you do not understand a hadith because you understand the hadith as if it is promoting violence you come and ask people guys..what is up with this? How i understand this ..it is as if it is promoting violence..can somebody comment on this. Just like the Qur'an ahadith have also their story. Narration chain, to the time to the situation, to the words lost in translation, shaheeh or not etc. etc.So whatever it might be, if it was in the past and this indeed was true as you stated, Allah(swt) knows best how his mindset is right now. People may say something but 1 week later they can change their mind on something. However the comment/topic might still exist. That is why when i have a discussion and i am wrong. I remove/change my original comment and also thank the person who has educated/corrected me on that subject. That way nobody attacks me on something that belonged to the ignorant me of the past.

the thread was just 1 day old, till last night I saw it on the board....

 

[Simple_Person]

the thread was just 1 day old, till last night I saw it on the board....

Well Allah knows best if he maybe has even changed his mind in a few hours and understood some of the things the right way and he himself contacted the admins/moderators to delete the topic.

 

[azc]

Well Allah knows best if he maybe has even changed his mind in a few hours and understood some of the things the right way and he himself contacted the admins/moderators to delete the topic.

No, I reported to admin/mod...

 

[Simple_Person]

No, I reported to admin/mod...

Oke, well it is still your claim, i have not seen it myself to say that it indeed was what it was as you claim it to be.

Anyways, a person harboring such feelings about Islam..cannot hide it forever you know. Sooner or later those feelings will surface again. So we will wait and in'sha'Alla we will see it again if this is what it is.

So that was that topic and this is another topic. In that topic i would have said something, in this topic..it has nothing to do with Islam, Muslims and Rasullah(saws). Rather is the fight between to groups that are struggling to gain power and control portraying it as Islam.

 

[azc]

Oke, well it is still your claim, i have not seen it myself to say that it indeed was what it was as you claim it to be. Anyways, a person harboring such feelings about Islam..cannot hide it forever you know. Sooner or later those feelings will surface again. So we will wait and in'sha'Alla we will see it again if this is what it is.So that was that topic and this is another topic. In that topic i would have said something, in this topic..it has nothing to do with Islam, Muslims and Rasullah(saws). Rather is the fight between to groups that are struggling to gain power and control portraying it as Islam.

I'm not interested to convince you, simply you asked me all this so I clarified, you trust me or not isn't important. Important is that we are accountable for what we write on the board. This is our witness on the judgement day. May Allah swt give me and him hidaya and forgive our sin... Ameen

 

[Simple_Person]

I'm not interested to convince you, simply you asked me all this so I clarified, you trust me or not isn't important. Important is that we are accountable for what we write on the board. This is our witness on the judgement day. May Allah swt give me and him hidaya and forgive our sin... Ameen

Brother sometimes we say something that the people reading/hearing it are kind of confused. When we read our own comment or listened to what we have said we also become confused about what we just have said.

Within Islam we cannot just say indeed person X is this or that, without hearing his side also. Besides that, you guys are involved in a disagreement on something else, so when somebody is in disagreement in some other matter, then one can see all the things from an "negative" angle. Just saying this in general not saying that this is the same with you.

Having said that, there is also 70 excuses i believe for your Muslim brother/sister hadith. The only moment that i do not apply this 70 excuses is when i have tested somebody who claims he is Muslim, but i see dishonesty in him/her. Dishonest people being Muslim or not Muslim don't get even one bit of my mercy so to say. In this case in that brother as well with you, i have not read any comments or have had any discussion with you guys that i have noticed dishonesty. So in both cases i give both of you 70 excuses so to say.

 

[azc]

Brother sometimes we say something that the people reading/hearing it are kind of confused. When we read our own comment or listened to what we have said we also become confused about what we just have said.Within Islam we cannot just say indeed person X is this or that, without hearing his side also. Besides that, you guys are involved in a disagreement on something else, so when somebody is in disagreement in some other matter, then one can see all the things from an "negative" angle. Just saying this in general not saying that this is the same with you.Having said that, there is also 70 excuses i believe for your Muslim brother/sister hadith. The only moment that i do not apply this 70 excuses is when i have tested somebody who claims he is Muslim, but i see dishonesty in him/her. Dishonest people being Muslim or not Muslim don't get even one bit of my mercy so to say. In this case in that brother as well with you, i have not read any comments or have had any discussion with you guys that i have noticed dishonesty. So in both cases i give both of you 70 excuses so to say.

anyways.. This discussion needs rest