Talmudic Judaism

[cinnamonrolls1]

From what i seem to understand i think there is a certain branch of jews who actually ascribe some sort of "special" power to the talmudic scholars. Also i dont think jews believe in Jesus pbuh but there a denomination called messianic jews who do i think?? I dont think theyre very accepted tho. Any Jewish folk on here want to enlighten me?

 

[cinnamonrolls1]

Not caring about race is also an Islamic concept. In the Quran, people are judged by their religion, not by their race. I agree with the Quran.

100%

 

[cinnamonrolls1]

The Quran doesnt say the Jews were cursed - it criticizes certain people in History in the tribe of Israel as they were the early ummah.

Your history, culture and differnet ethic groups are a sign of God. The Quran says

" O you men! surely We have created you of a male and a female, and made you tribes and families that you may know each other; surely the most honorable of you with Allah is the one among you most careful (of his duty); surely Allah is Knowing, Aware." - 49.13

However racism, bigotry and supremacy has no place in Islam as the prophet pbuh said in the last sermon (every Muslim should read)

""There is no superiority for an Arab over a non-Arab, nor for a non-Arab over an Arab. Neither is the white superior over the black, nor is the black superior over the white -- except by piety." - Prophet Muhammad pbuh last sermon.

Its your Iman (faith) akhlaq (character) and your actions (Amal) that matter not who you are although that is a sign of God.

I really love this answer. If only more people thought like you.

 

[cinnamonrolls1]

Disbelievers from Bani Israel

‘And they say: Our hearts are covered. Nay, Allah has cursed them on account of their disbelief; so little it is that they believe. And when there came to them a Book from Allah verifying that which they have, and aforetime they used to pray for victory against those who disbelieve, but when there came to them (Prophet) that which they did not recognize, they disbelieved in him; so Allah’s curse is on the unbelievers.’
(Surah Baqarah, 2: 88-89)


‘But on account of their breaking their covenant We cursed them and made their hearts hard; they altered the words from their places and they neglected a portion of what they were reminded of; and you shall always discover treachery in them excepting a few of them; so pardon them and turn away; surely Allah loves those who do good (to others).’
(Surah Maidah, 5:13)


‘Say: Shall I inform you of (him who is) worse than this in retribution from Allah? (Worse is he) whom Allah has cursed and brought His wrath upon, and of whom He made apes and swine, and he who served the Shaitan; these are worse in place and more erring from the straight path.’
(Surah Maidah, 5:60)


‘Those who disbelieved from among the children of Israel were cursed by the tongue of Dawood and Isa, son of Marium; this was because they disobeyed and used to exceed the limit.’
(Surah Maidah, 5:78)


‘And they are overtaken by curse in this (world), and on the resurrection day, evil the gift which shall be given.’

(Surah Hud, 11:99)

‘And We caused a curse to follow them in this world, and on the day of resurrection they shall be of those made to appear hideous"
s.’

Thats referencing specific people though. To apply that to all just doesnt work

 

[Karl]

The Quran doesnt say the Jews were cursed - it criticizes certain people in History in the tribe of Israel as they were the early ummah.

Your history, culture and differnet ethic groups are a sign of God. The Quran says

" O you men! surely We have created you of a male and a female, and made you tribes and families that you may know each other; surely the most honorable of you with Allah is the one among you most careful (of his duty); surely Allah is Knowing, Aware." - 49.13

However racism, bigotry and supremacy has no place in Islam as the prophet pbuh said in the last sermon (every Muslim should read)

""There is no superiority for an Arab over a non-Arab, nor for a non-Arab over an Arab. Neither is the white superior over the black, nor is the black superior over the white -- except by piety." - Prophet Muhammad pbuh last sermon.

Its your Iman (faith) akhlaq (character) and your actions (Amal) that matter not who you are although that is a sign of God.

Yes it does say the Jews are a cursed race that's why the Jews hate the Quran and want it modified.

Yes all living things have the same right to life, there is no superiority of the species, only differences. There is no "master race" of humans, they all have their strengths and weaknesses.

 

[Zafran]

No it's not a mute point. You made a generalized statement that they were not cursed and the Quran confirms that they were. Swallow your stubbornness and omit that you were wrong. Those verses you quoted are about the People of the Book who accepted the Prophet s.a.a.w and his final revelation and embraced Islam.

Heres what I said

The Quran doesnt say the Jews were cursed - it criticizes certain people in History in the tribe of Israel as they were the early ummah.

try to read what is said and not go on the lets blame the Jews - nuanced reading is necessary.

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Thats referencing specific people though. To apply that to all just doesnt work

Indeed specific Jews in specific time period were criticized/punished because of the deeds they did. However the Quran makes a distinction and even says not all people of the book are the same. God Knows best.

 

[fschmidt]

[MENTION=42660]Moses613[/MENTION] I am certainly not a Talmudic scholar, but I have spent some time reading this translation:

http://www.sacred-texts.com/jud/talmud.htm

I pick some random area and start to read, and almost everything that I see seems like insane logic. I have read many religious books and I have never seen one less appealing than the Talmud. My favorite book by far is the Old Testament which seems almost completely opposite in style to the Talmud.

The Karaites have issues, just like Protestants and Quranists have issues, because scripture by itself is not enough. But the Old Testament itself points to the solution which is to study history (and science) to find the best interpretation.

I don't know what you're talking about as far as destroying morality. That has nothing to do with Judaism or the Talmud. About 90% of American Jews are non-observant. They wouldn't know what a Talmud was if it hit them in the head. For many, unfortunately, their real religion is liberalism or progressivism. This, again, has nothing to do with the teachings of Judaism.

This points directly to the central problem of Judaism. Because Judaism is racist, the Orthodox defend liberal jews even though their morals are very different. If the Orthodox didn't do this, liberal judaism would die the natural death that it deserves. I wrote about this here:

http://www.mikraite.org/The-Judaist-Problem-tp1570.html

Muslims don't hesitate to criticize immoral Muslim groups like ISIS. But Orthodox Jews never criticize immoral jewish groups. The Anti-Defamation League and Southern Poverty Law Center are guilty of crimes against humanity because of their hatred of free speech and Western values. They are no better than Nazi war criminals and members of these groups deserve to be hung.

As I said in my initial post, regular members of Talmudic Judaism should simply be driven out of a moral society. There is no reason to harm these people. But they are allies of liberal judaism which is pure evil. Orthodox jews generally mind their own business. Liberal jews are traitors to any society that they live in and should be treated as traitors. Orthodox jews are just allies of traitors (based on race), so they should just be forced to leave.

 

[Ümit]

The names of God are forbidden to be erased. Therefore, in much Jewish literature, the word is written in a defective way so that when the paper is discarded it will not be a desecration of God's name. This is not necessary on computers where the text does not actually exist in print, but many do it out of habit in any case.

Oh that is a good reason. thank you for your answer.
I used to have great sympathy for Judaism, because their religions is the closest one to Islam. I talked to some Jews a couple of times, and they really had similar opinions as us Muslims.
The Thorah still is pretty pure and I envied the Jews how they try to live according to their religion.
Now that I have heard about the Talmud, I am shocked...this is totally opposite of what I knew about Judaism.

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The names of God are forbidden to be erased. Therefore, in much Jewish literature, the word is written in a defective way so that when the paper is discarded it will not be a desecration of God's name. This is not necessary on computers where the text does not actually exist in print, but many do it out of habit in any case.

Oh that is a good reason. thank you for your answer.
I used to have great sympathy for Judaism, because their religions is the closest one to Islam. I talked to some Jews a couple of times, and they really had similar opinions as us Muslims.
The Thorah still is pretty pure and I envied the Jews how they try to live according to their religion.
Now that I have heard about the Talmud, I am shocked...this is totally opposite of what I knew about Judaism.

 

[fschmidt]

The names of God are forbidden to be erased. Therefore, in much Jewish literature, the word is written in a defective way so that when the paper is discarded it will not be a desecration of God's name. This is not necessary on computers where the text does not actually exist in print, but many do it out of habit in any case.

[MENTION=42042]umie[/MENTION] I am not sure if I believe this. Exodus 3:15 says "God also said to Moses, “Say this to the Israelites: YHVH, the God of your fathers, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob, has sent me to you. This is My name forever; this is how I am to be remembered in every generation." The vowels for YHVH are unsure so there are a number of possible pronunciations. But Talmudic Judaism avoids all pronunciations. In synagogue, God's name is replaced with "adonai" which means "lord" in Hebrew. But outside of synagogue, the Orthodox just call God "ha-shem" which means the "the name" in Hebrew. So Judaism is doing the exact opposite of what God commanded in Exodus 3:15. I had always assumed that writing G-d was part of this pattern, but I could be wrong.

 

[Ümit]

@umie I am not sure if I believe this. Exodus 3:15 says "God also said to Moses, “Say this to the Israelites: YHVH, the God of your fathers, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob, has sent me to you. This is My name forever; this is how I am to be remembered in every generation." The vowels for YHVH are unsure so there are a number of possible pronunciations. But Talmudic Judaism avoids all pronunciations. In synagogue, God's name is replaced with "adonai" which means "lord" in Hebrew. But outside of synagogue, the Orthodox just call God "ha-shem" which means the "the name" in Hebrew. So Judaism is doing the exact opposite of what God commanded in Exodus 3:15. I had always assumed that writing G-d was part of this pattern, but I could be wrong.

From this, I understand that Judaism has a hidden dark side. one side is all good and very comparable to Islam, but this other side...about making the Talmud holy, making rabbi's holy...making their own rules...etc...is bad and evil...totally the opposite of each other.
I never knew of this dark side of Judaism until now with this thread.

 

[cinnamonrolls1]

Okay, so please correct me if im wrong , but the Torah is the actual scripture right, and the Talmud is more like a sort of "manual"?

 

[cinnamonrolls1]

[MENTION=42660]Moses613[/MENTION] I am certainly not a Talmudic scholar, but I have spent some time reading this translation:

http://www.sacred-texts.com/jud/talmud.htm

I pick some random area and start to read, and almost everything that I see seems like insane logic. I have read many religious books and I have never seen one less appealing than the Talmud. My favorite book by far is the Old Testament which seems almost completely opposite in style to the Talmud.

The Karaites have issues, just like Protestants and Quranists have issues, because scripture by itself is not enough. But the Old Testament itself points to the solution which is to study history (and science) to find the best interpretation.


This points directly to the central problem of Judaism. Because Judaism is racist, the Orthodox defend liberal jews even though their morals are very different. If the Orthodox didn't do this, liberal judaism would die the natural death that it deserves. I wrote about this here:

http://www.mikraite.org/The-Judaist-Problem-tp1570.html

Muslims don't hesitate to criticize immoral Muslim groups like ISIS. But Orthodox Jews never criticize immoral jewish groups. The Anti-Defamation League and Southern Poverty Law Center are guilty of crimes against humanity because of their hatred of free speech and Western values. They are no better than Nazi war criminals and members of these groups deserve to be hung.

As I said in my initial post, regular members of Talmudic Judaism should simply be driven out of a moral society. There is no reason to harm these people. But they are allies of liberal judaism which is pure evil. Orthodox jews generally mind their own business. Liberal jews are traitors to any society that they live in and should be treated as traitors. Orthodox jews are just allies of traitors (based on race), so they should just be forced to leave.

Are orthodox jews like hasidic jews?

 

[fschmidt]

Are orthodox jews like hasidic jews?

Hasidic judaism is a type of orthodox judaism.

 

[Karl]

[MENTION=42660]Moses613[/MENTION] I am certainly not a Talmudic scholar, but I have spent some time reading this translation:

http://www.sacred-texts.com/jud/talmud.htm

I pick some random area and start to read, and almost everything that I see seems like insane logic. I have read many religious books and I have never seen one less appealing than the Talmud. My favorite book by far is the Old Testament which seems almost completely opposite in style to the Talmud.

The Karaites have issues, just like Protestants and Quranists have issues, because scripture by itself is not enough. But the Old Testament itself points to the solution which is to study history (and science) to find the best interpretation.


This points directly to the central problem of Judaism. Because Judaism is racist, the Orthodox defend liberal jews even though their morals are very different. If the Orthodox didn't do this, liberal judaism would die the natural death that it deserves. I wrote about this here:

http://www.mikraite.org/The-Judaist-Problem-tp1570.html

Muslims don't hesitate to criticize immoral Muslim groups like ISIS. But Orthodox Jews never criticize immoral jewish groups. The Anti-Defamation League and Southern Poverty Law Center are guilty of crimes against humanity because of their hatred of free speech and Western values. They are no better than Nazi war criminals and members of these groups deserve to be hung.

As I said in my initial post, regular members of Talmudic Judaism should simply be driven out of a moral society. There is no reason to harm these people. But they are allies of liberal judaism which is pure evil. Orthodox jews generally mind their own business. Liberal jews are traitors to any society that they live in and should be treated as traitors. Orthodox jews are just allies of traitors (based on race), so they should just be forced to leave.

I suppose the "evil" Jews would consider you a traitor as what you say is very dangerous to all Jews. Wouldn't the goy just rationalize that how can we tell the difference between these lying bad Jews and good Jews? Wouldn't it be best to just kill them all to be on the safe side? Been done in the past by pagans and Christians so could happen in the future by pagans, Christians and Muslims etc.

 

[Moses613]

Oh that is a good reason. thank you for your answer.
I used to have great sympathy for Judaism, because their religions is the closest one to Islam. I talked to some Jews a couple of times, and they really had similar opinions as us Muslims.
The Thorah still is pretty pure and I envied the Jews how they try to live according to their religion.
Now that I have heard about the Talmud, I am shocked...this is totally opposite of what I knew about Judaism.

Rely on your personal experiences rather than what you read trashing the Talmud online. We humbly try to live according to the dictates of our great rabbis as expounded in the Talmud, and believe that if we truly keep its teachings, we will impart goodness and benefit on all humankind. For "Its ways are ways of pleasantness, and all its paths are peace." -Proverbs 3:17.
Unfortunately, many Jews fall short of what our religion calls upon us to do.

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Maimonides, Laws of the Foundations of the Torah, 6:1: "Whosoever willfully destroys an inscription of any of the Holy and Pure Names by which the Holy One, blessed is He! is called, is guilty of a sin punishable under the laws of the Torah with flogging. For, behold, it is said of idolatry: "And ye shall destroy their name from that place, but ye shall not do so unto the Lord your God" (Deut. 22.3–4)."

 

[SHO]

AsSalamu 'Alaykum

The Talmud is a collection of writings from Rabbis through the centuries. It is not a revealed scripture like the Torah or the Psalms of David.
And Allah Knows Best

http://www.manyprophetsonemessage.com/2018/02/26/the-bible-tawrah-and-injeel-in-light-of-islam/

And Allah Knows Best.

Salaam.
S.H.O

[TABLE="class: grid, width: 100%, align: center"]
[TR][TD]The Bible, Tawrah and Injeel in Light of Islam – Many Prophets, One Message
...[/TD][/TR][/TABLE]

 

[Misbah-Abd]

AsSalamu 'Alaykum



http://www.manyprophetsonemessage.com/2018/02/26/the-bible-tawrah-and-injeel-in-light-of-islam/



And Allah Knows Best.

Salaam.
S.H.O

[TABLE="class: grid, width: 100%, align: center"]
[TR]
[TD]The Bible, Tawrah and Injeel in Light of Islam – Many Prophets, One Message
...[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]

I said the Talmud, not the Torah.

 

[SHO]

I said the Talmud, not the Torah.

Salam,brother.
Yes I understood that you spoke about Talmud.
I shared the link because it also talks about Talmud(But it's not mentioned in the title).

eg:

The Qur’an and the Talmud

The Qur’an states that God revealed to the Children of Israel the severity of taking a life and the greatness of saving a life:

Because of that, We decreed upon the Children of Israel that whoever kills a soul unless for a soul or for corruption [done] in the land – it is as if he had slain mankind entirely. And whoever saves one – it is as if he had saved mankind entirely… [Qur’an, 5:32]

This teaching cannot be found in the Old Testament. However, it can be found in the Babylonian Talmud:

Therefore the man was created singly, to teach that he who destroys one soul of a human being, the Scripture considers him as if he should destroy a whole world, and him who saves one soul of Israel, the Scripture considers him as if he should save a whole World. [8]

Judaism as a religion is based not only upon the Old Testament but also upon the Rabbinic tradition of the Talmud. Whereas the Old Testament is the written law that Moses received directly from God, the Talmud is believed to contain the oral law that has been passed down from generation to generation. The purpose of this example is to show that even the Talmud contains some teachings that are divine in origin. In this case it has not been preserved in scripture but rather the traditions of the Rabbis.
The Qur’an relates stories about the Prophets that can be found in the Talmud, for example the story of Abraham and the idols:

I think you did not read the entire page.Please do,if you did not.It is very informative.

Salaam.
S.H.O

 

[Misbah-Abd]

Salam,brother.
Yes I understood that you spoke about Talmud.
I shared the link because it also talks about Talmud(But it's not mentioned in the title).

eg:


I think you did not read the entire page.Please do,if you did not.It is very informative.

Salaam.
S.H.O

That link also says the Old Testament was the written law that Musa a.s. received directly from God. That is incorrect. Musa was given the Torah which is allegedly considered the first 5 books of the Old Testament by Bible Scholars. And we know that the Jews added and taken out verses that suited their whims and desires. I am not buying it that the Talmud has any divine origins since that link says the Talmud is based on Rabbinic tradition. Rabbi's are not Prophets therefore they didn't receive revelation. Not to mention the hate and evil that its verses contain about the gentiles and Jesus a.s. and his mother. And Allah Knows Best.

 

[SHO]

That link also says the Old Testament was the written law that Musa a.s. received directly from God. That is incorrect. Musa was given the Torah which is allegedly considered the first 5 books of the Old Testament by Bible Scholars.

I think the author meant to say "According to Jewish beliefs..." ,because the article's main point is to prove that the Bible is corrupted by humans and is God's word mixed with falsehood.I think the author made a mistake and probably forgot to mention this point.
But he has clearly stated:

2. The Bible of today is a mixture of truth, corruption and revelation.

This position is the understanding that the Bibles of today are a mixture of truth, corruption and revelation. As we will see, it is the position that best explains the collective verses of the Qur’an, ahadith, and the statements of the companions. It is important to point out that the Bibles of today cannot be equated with those scriptures that were originally revealed to Moses and Jesus. That is to say, the Old Testament does not equal the Tawrah, and the New Testament does not equal the Injeel.

And we know that the Jews added and taken out verses that suited their whims and desires.

Yes, as stated in the page.

I am not buying it that the Talmud has any divine origins since that link says the Talmud is based on Rabbinic tradition. Rabbi's are not Prophets therefore they didn't receive revelation.

Ok,here's what the article says:

Judaism as a religion is based not only upon the Old Testament but also upon the Rabbinic tradition of the Talmud. Whereas the Old Testament is the written law that Moses received directly from God, the Talmud is believed to contain the oral law that has been passed down from generation to generation. The purpose of this example is to show that even the Talmud contains some teachings that are divine in origin. In this case it has not been preserved in scripture but rather the traditions of the Rabbis.

The point is,the Talmud might contain some teachings of Divine origin,but not a revelation from Allah in its entirety.Please note that the article also mentions things which are not found in today's Bible but found in apocryphal scripts and Talmud. That might mean that some things which were in the Scriptures can be in the Talmud,but as we can see, Talmud, Tawrah, Zabur, or Injeel in the form we see today are not entirely God's words, but rather " are a mixture of truth, corruption and revelation."

Not to mention the hate and evil that its verses contain about the gentiles and Jesus a.s. and his mother. And Allah Knows Best.

As mentioned, the previous scriptures are corrupted, and "are a mixture of truth, corruption and revelation."
I agree that the Talmud is not any Revelation from God in its entirety. My point is, it may contain some part of it.