Wali

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Salam
Please can someone answer a question about wali. If a girls father refuses to consider any potential match because he wants her to marry his relative from back home how will she ever get married. I understand that only the father can be wali.
The father is saying if she doesn't get married to his choice he refuses to be involved in it.
 
Salam
Please can someone answer a question about wali. If a girls father refuses to consider any potential match because he wants her to marry his relative from back home how will she ever get married. I understand that only the father can be wali.
The father is saying if she doesn't get married to his choice he refuses to be involved in it.

https://islamqa.info/en/95405

[TABLE="class: grid, width: 100%, align: center"]
[TR][TD]Her wali repeatedly refused suitors; can she arrange her own marriage? - islamqa.info
I am 31 years old teacher. I have been a teacher since 1996. In the end of 1997 a colleague proposed to meand I asked him to wait until my older sister gets mar...[/TD][/TR][/TABLE]
 
So it passes to the fathers father or brother who want exactly the same thing as the wali. And they are in a different country anyway.

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In the meantime she will be getting older and losing precious time.
 
Salam
Please can someone answer a question about wali. If a girls father refuses to consider any potential match because he wants her to marry his relative from back home how will she ever get married. I understand that only the father can be wali.
The father is saying if she doesn't get married to his choice he refuses to be involved in it.

In the hanifi Madhab you dont need a Wali. If your not then you'll have to find a wali to get marriad - other family members, Imam??
 
In the hanifi Madhab you dont need a Wali. If your not then you'll have to find a wali to get marriad - other family members, Imam??

Brother, I thought that hanafi ruling was for only divorced wives who want to remarry?

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So it passes to the fathers father or brother who want exactly the same thing as the wali. And they are in a different country anyway.

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In the meantime she will be getting older and losing precious time.

It is considered zulm (oppression) for her wali to be stubborn at the expense of her happiness. If the father's side are all like that then she has to go to an Islamic judge (Qadi) for relief.
 
Brother, I thought that hanafi ruling was for only divorced wives who want to remarry?

salaam

Nope, this is a well known opinion that differs with the other madhabs which require a wali.

peace
 
So it passes to the fathers father or brother who want exactly the same thing as the wali. And they are in a different country anyway.

In the meantime she will be getting older and losing precious time.

If the wali isn't acting in the best interest of the girl then that mantle passes onto the next of kin. If none are available or can't act in her best interest then it goes to the khalifah or the imam.
 
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In the hanifi Madhab you dont need a Wali. If your not then you'll have to find a wali to get marriad - other family members, Imam??

In the hanafi madhab, marrying without a wali is considered an absolute last resort and would need to be considered by an islamic scholar. I wouldn't suggest any girl get married without her family's permission and without sincerely putting in the effort to change their minds and put forth her case to them first. If that doesn't work then she should seek other help from her extended family (brothers, uncles, male grandparents) even if she does not think they will agree with her. When these options have been exhausted, then she can seek help from a knowledgable member of the islamic community (imam, scholar, counselor, etc.), and perhaps they can persuade her father to change his mind, IF NOT they may have other means of helping her. So I would not make the very last resort a first option.

Salam
Please can someone answer a question about wali. If a girls father refuses to consider any potential match because he wants her to marry his relative from back home how will she ever get married. I understand that only the father can be wali.
The father is saying if she doesn't get married to his choice he refuses to be involved in it.

You have uncles and grandparents you can turn to. Even if you think they are of the same opinion, you should still put the effort in asking for their help and continue to speak to your father about the subject. Maybe discuss your feelings to your mother and she may be able to soften his heart towards your situation. Don't assume that your male family members will have the same opinion as your father. I also strongly suggest to make du'a and pray istikhara.
 
I wonder if the other madhabs allow similar positions as the hanafi madhab. ( i honestly dont know all that much about the madhabs tbh- like their rulings and the like- i was just taught by my family)
 
I wonder if the other madhabs allow similar positions as the hanafi madhab. ( i honestly dont know all that much about the madhabs tbh- like their rulings and the like- i was just taught by my family)

No, the majority scholarly view is that you need a wali to get married. Imam Abu Haneefah said: “If the hadeeth is saheeh then that is my madhhab.” And had he access to the hadith stating there is no marriage without a wali, he too would have made the same ruling. Not only that but all four imams said if you find something in the Sunnah contrary to what I said then ignore what I said, and yet lot of these people who follow these madhabs blindly, continue to follow it.


Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him): “There is no marriage without a wali.” Narrated by Abu Dawood (2085), al-Tirmidhi (1101) and Ibn Majaah (1881) from the hadeeth of Abu Moosa al-Ash’ari; classed as saheeh by al-Albaani in Saheeh al-Tirmidhi.

And he (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) said: “There is no marriage except with a wali and two witnesses of good character.” Narrated by al-Bayhaqi from the hadeeth of ‘Imraan and ‘Aa’ishah; classed as saheeh by al-Albaani in Saheeh al-Jaami’ 7557.

And he (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) said: “Any woman who gets married without the permission of her guardian, her marriage is invalid, her marriage is invalid, her marriage is invalid. But if the marriage is consummated then the mahr is hers because she has allowed him to be intimate with her. If they dispute, then the ruler is the guardian of the one who has no guardian.” Narrated by Ahmad (24417), Abu Dawood (2083) and al-Tirmidhi (1102); classed as saheeh by al-Albaani in Saheeh al-Jaami’ no. 2709.


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The Hanafi madhhab is one of the four well-known madhhabs, and it was the first of the fiqhi madhhabs. It was said that “The people are dependent on Abu Haneefah with regard to fiqh.” The origin of the Hanafi madhhab and all the other madhhabs is that these four imams – I mean Abu Haneefah, Maalik, al-Shaafa’i and Ahmad – made the effort to understand the evidence of the Qur’aan and Sunnah, and they issued fatwas to people based on the evidence that had reached them. Then the followers of these imams took their fatwas and conveyed them and issued other fatwas based on them, and derived principles from them, and they set out guidelines for understanding the texts and reaching conclusions. Thus the fiqhi madhhab was formed, and the Hanafi, Shaafa’i, Maaliki and Hanbali madhhabs, and other madhhabs such as those of al-Awzaa’i and Sufyaan, but these latter madhhabs were not destined to continue.

If it is said: If the four madhhabs are based on the Qur’aan and Sunnah, why do we find differences of opinion between them on matters of fiqh?

The answer is: Each imam issued fatwas on the basis of the evidence that reached him. A hadeeth may have reached Imam Maalik on the basis of which he issued fatwas, that did not reach Abu Haneefah, so he issued fatwas stating something different, and vice versa. Similarly a hadeeth may have reached Abu Haneefah with a saheeh isnaad so he issued fatwas on that basis, and the same hadeeth may have reached Imam al-Shaafa’i with a different isnaad that was da’eef (weak), so he did not issue fatwas based on it, or he may have issued a fatwa saying something that went against the hadeeth based on the conclusion he reached. This is why differences arose among the scholars, but ultimately the point of reference is the Qur’aan and Sunnah.

In fact, Imam Abu Haneefah and other imams followed the texts of the Qur’aan and Sunnah, even if some of their fatwas were not based on that, the reason being that all four imams stated that if a hadeeth was saheeh, then that was their madhhab, that is what they followed, on what they based their fatwas and from what they derived their evidence.

Imam Maalik (may Allaah have mercy on him) said: “I am only human, sometimes I make mistakes and sometimes I get things right. Look at my opinion and whatever is in accordance with the Qur’aan and Sunnah, take it, and whatever is not in accordance with the Qur’aan and Sunnah, ignore it.” And he said: “There is no one after the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) whose words cannot be taken or left, apart from the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him).”

Imam al-Shaafa’i (may Allaah have mercy on him) said: “There is no one who will not be unaware of some of the Sunnah of the Messenger of Allaah (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him). Whatever I say or whatever guidelines I establish, if there is a report from the Messenger of Allaah (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) which is different to what I said, then what matters is what the Messenger of Allaah (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) said, and that is my opinion.”

Imam Ahmad said: “Do not follow me blindly and do not follow Maalik or al-Shaafa’i or al-Awzaa’i or al-Thawri blindly. Learn from where they learned.” And he said: “The opinion of al-Awzaa’i and the opinion of Maalik and the opinion of Abu Haneefah are all mere conjecture and it is all the same to me. Rather evidence is to be found in the reports – i.e., in the shar’i evidence.”

https://islamqa.info/en/95405
 
salaam

No The Hanifi Madhabs position is that a women can marry without wali - that isn't just a opinion of Abu Hanifi its the opinion of 1000s of hanifi Jurists. The same applies with other Madhabs depending on the methodology. There is no one madhab they all have there differences and countless scholars have defended them. There are also many differences within a madhabs as many scholars differd with each other.
 
I wonder if the other madhabs allow similar positions as the hanafi madhab. ( i honestly dont know all that much about the madhabs tbh- like their rulings and the like- i was just taught by my family)

1)Allah Most High says: “When you divorce women, and they fulfil the term of their waiting period (idda), do not prevent them from marrying their (former) husbands, if they mutually agree on equitable terms.” (Surah al-Baqarah, V: 232)

In this verse, Allah Most High attributes the conducting of marriage to women which is an indication that they are able to marry themselves without the permission and approval of their Wali. Moreover, the guardians are instructed not to interfere by preventing them from marrying their former husbands.

2)Allah Most High says: “If any of you dies and leaves widows behind, they shall wait concerning themselves four months and ten days: When they have fulfilled their term (of idda), there is no blame on you if they dispose of themselves (marry themselves off) in a just and reasonable manner.” (Surah al-Baqarah, V: 234)

In this verse also, there is clear indication that women have full rights of marrying themselves and do not require the approval of their guardian or Wali.

3)Sayyiduna Abdullah ibn Abbas (Allah be pleased with him) reports that the Messenger of Allah (Allah bless him & give him peace) said: “A non-married woman (virgin or non-virgin) has more right in managing her own affairs (i.e. marriage etc) than her guardian, and a virgin’s consent must be sought concerning herself, and her silence implies her consent.” (Sahih Muslim, no: 4121)

In this Hadith, the term Ayyim means a woman who has no husband (man la zawja lah) and includes both virgin and non-virgin women. The Messenger of Allah (Allah bless him & give him peace) is clearly stating that she is more rightful than her guardian in managing her own affairs in terms of marriage and other similar things.

4)Sayyiduna Ali ibn Abi Talib (Allah be pleased with him) would strongly advise against marrying without the guardian’s approval, but if someone was to go ahead and marry, he would consider their marriage to be valid. (Kanz al-Ummal, no: 45775)

As for the Hadiths indicating that marriage without the guardian’s approval is completely invalid, Imam Zafar Ahmad Uthmani (Allah have mercy on him) states in his colossal encyclopaedic work, I’la al-Sunan, that Hadiths such as “Any woman who marries without the permission of her guardian, her marriage is invalid, invalid, invalid” (related by Ibn Hibban, Tirmidhi and others, and Tirmidhi considered it to be hasan) and “There is no marriage without the (permission of a) guardian” (related by Hakim and Abu Dawud) are to be understood in light of the other Hadiths that point to the validity of such a marriage. As such, the generality in these two Hadiths is restricted to pubescent (non-baligha) and slave women, whilst adult and free women are to be excluded from this general ruling due to the evidences favouring the validity of their marriages without the guardian’s approval.

As such, the meaning of the Messenger of Allah’s statement “There is no marriage without the (permission of a) guardian” would be “There is no complete and blessed marriage without the permission of the guardian” but the marriage in of itself is valid provided the woman marries a person who is a legal match to her. Likewise, the meaning of the Hadith “Any woman who marries without the permission of her guardian, her marriage is invalid, invalid, invalid” will mean “her marriage is invalid in some situations” and that situation is when she marries herself off to a person who is not considered a legal match to her.

Moreover, the two reporters of these two Hadiths, Sayyida A’isha and Imam Zuhri (Allah be pleased with them) have both opposed the ruling given in them. Sayyida A’isha (Allah be pleased with her) married off Hafsa bint Abdirrahman without the approval of her guardian, whilst Imam Zuhri is reported to have said: “Any woman who marries herself without her guardian’s approval, her marriage is valid”. It is an accepted principle that if the reporter of a narration himself or herself contradicts that which is being reported, then his/her reported Hadith should not be taken at face value, but rather understood in light of the reporter’s action........

https://hanafilegalrulings.blogspot.in/2017/01/marrying-without-walis-permission.html
 
Im aware of walis beinb mandatory etc, but like how the hanafi madhab states its permissable if the wali isnt cooperating etc, i was just wondering if other madhabs were as flexible
 
salaam

No The Hanifi Madhabs position is that a women can marry without wali - that isn't just a opinion of Abu Hanifi its the opinion of 1000s of hanifi Jurists. The same applies with other Madhabs depending on the methodology. There is no one madhab they all have there differences and countless scholars have defended them. There are also many differences within a madhabs as many scholars differd with each other.


Not correct.

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No, the majority scholarly view is that you need a wali to get married. Imam Abu Haneefah said: “If the hadeeth is saheeh then that is my madhhab.” And had he access to the hadith stating there is no marriage without a wali, he too would have made the same ruling. Not only that but all four imams said if you find something in the Sunnah contrary to what I said then ignore what I said, and yet lot of these people who follow these madhabs blindly, continue to follow it.


Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him): “There is no marriage without a wali.” Narrated by Abu Dawood (2085), al-Tirmidhi (1101) and Ibn Majaah (1881) from the hadeeth of Abu Moosa al-Ash’ari; classed as saheeh by al-Albaani in Saheeh al-Tirmidhi.

And he (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) said: “There is no marriage except with a wali and two witnesses of good character.” Narrated by al-Bayhaqi from the hadeeth of ‘Imraan and ‘Aa’ishah; classed as saheeh by al-Albaani in Saheeh al-Jaami’ 7557.

And he (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) said: “Any woman who gets married without the permission of her guardian, her marriage is invalid, her marriage is invalid, her marriage is invalid. But if the marriage is consummated then the mahr is hers because she has allowed him to be intimate with her. If they dispute, then the ruler is the guardian of the one who has no guardian.” Narrated by Ahmad (24417), Abu Dawood (2083) and al-Tirmidhi (1102); classed as saheeh by al-Albaani in Saheeh al-Jaami’ no. 2709.


----------



The Hanafi madhhab is one of the four well-known madhhabs, and it was the first of the fiqhi madhhabs. It was said that “The people are dependent on Abu Haneefah with regard to fiqh.” The origin of the Hanafi madhhab and all the other madhhabs is that these four imams – I mean Abu Haneefah, Maalik, al-Shaafa’i and Ahmad – made the effort to understand the evidence of the Qur’aan and Sunnah, and they issued fatwas to people based on the evidence that had reached them. Then the followers of these imams took their fatwas and conveyed them and issued other fatwas based on them, and derived principles from them, and they set out guidelines for understanding the texts and reaching conclusions. Thus the fiqhi madhhab was formed, and the Hanafi, Shaafa’i, Maaliki and Hanbali madhhabs, and other madhhabs such as those of al-Awzaa’i and Sufyaan, but these latter madhhabs were not destined to continue.

If it is said: If the four madhhabs are based on the Qur’aan and Sunnah, why do we find differences of opinion between them on matters of fiqh?

The answer is: Each imam issued fatwas on the basis of the evidence that reached him. A hadeeth may have reached Imam Maalik on the basis of which he issued fatwas, that did not reach Abu Haneefah, so he issued fatwas stating something different, and vice versa. Similarly a hadeeth may have reached Abu Haneefah with a saheeh isnaad so he issued fatwas on that basis, and the same hadeeth may have reached Imam al-Shaafa’i with a different isnaad that was da’eef (weak), so he did not issue fatwas based on it, or he may have issued a fatwa saying something that went against the hadeeth based on the conclusion he reached. This is why differences arose among the scholars, but ultimately the point of reference is the Qur’aan and Sunnah.

In fact, Imam Abu Haneefah and other imams followed the texts of the Qur’aan and Sunnah, even if some of their fatwas were not based on that, the reason being that all four imams stated that if a hadeeth was saheeh, then that was their madhhab, that is what they followed, on what they based their fatwas and from what they derived their evidence.

Imam Maalik (may Allaah have mercy on him) said: “I am only human, sometimes I make mistakes and sometimes I get things right. Look at my opinion and whatever is in accordance with the Qur’aan and Sunnah, take it, and whatever is not in accordance with the Qur’aan and Sunnah, ignore it.” And he said: “There is no one after the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) whose words cannot be taken or left, apart from the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him).”

Imam al-Shaafa’i (may Allaah have mercy on him) said: “There is no one who will not be unaware of some of the Sunnah of the Messenger of Allaah (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him). Whatever I say or whatever guidelines I establish, if there is a report from the Messenger of Allaah (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) which is different to what I said, then what matters is what the Messenger of Allaah (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) said, and that is my opinion.”

Imam Ahmad said: “Do not follow me blindly and do not follow Maalik or al-Shaafa’i or al-Awzaa’i or al-Thawri blindly. Learn from where they learned.” And he said: “The opinion of al-Awzaa’i and the opinion of Maalik and the opinion of Abu Haneefah are all mere conjecture and it is all the same to me. Rather evidence is to be found in the reports – i.e., in the shar’i evidence.”

https://islamqa.info/en/95405


Masha-Allah, this is very true and correct statement. May Allah bless you for conveying the Truth.


Those imams gave the same advice to follow what is in accordance with the Holy Quraan and the Sunnah. But the exaggerations came from the people of the
later
times.
 
Im aware of walis beinb mandatory etc, but like how the hanafi madhab states its permissable if the wali isnt cooperating etc, i was just wondering if other madhabs were as flexible

Imam Shafi'i rh and Imam Ahmad b hambal rh are strict whereas imam Malik rh have been reported of having 2 opinions:

Qadhi Abu’l Waleed Muhammad bin Ahmed Ibn Rushd Maliki rh, in Bidayatul Mujtahid vol.2 pg. 6-7, writes:

“Imam Malik rh, in Ashhab’s narration from him, said that there is no marriage without a guardian and that it (guardianship) is a condition of validity.

. . . .The fourth opinion is Malik’s rh, as derived from ibn al-Qasim’s narration that its stipulation as a demand is Sunnah, but not Fardh. This is because it is narrated from him that he used to view inheritance among parties married without a guardian (as valid), and permitted an unchaste woman to appoint a man as her guardian for her marriage, and he held as recommended that a deflowered woman present a guardian who could contract on her behalf. Thus, guardianship for him is one of the complementary demands and not a condition for validity, as against the statement of Malik’s rh disciples from Baghdad, who consider it a condition of validity and not that of perfection. The reason for their disagreement is the absence of a verse or tradition that is apparent, not to say explicit, about the stipulation of guardianship as a condition of marriage.”
 
In the hanafi madhab, marrying without a wali is considered an absolute last resort and would need to be considered by an islamic scholar. I wouldn't suggest any girl get married without her family's permission and without sincerely putting in the effort to change their minds and put forth her case to them first. If that doesn't work then she should seek other help from her extended family (brothers, uncles, male grandparents) even if she does not think they will agree with her. When these options have been exhausted, then she can seek help from a knowledgable member of the islamic community (imam, scholar, counselor, etc.), and perhaps they can persuade her father to change his mind, IF NOT they may have other means of helping her. So I would not make the very last resort a first option.



You have uncles and grandparents you can turn to. Even if you think they are of the same opinion, you should still put the effort in asking for their help and continue to speak to your father about the subject. Maybe discuss your feelings to your mother and she may be able to soften his heart towards your situation. Don't assume that your male family members will have the same opinion as your father. I also strongly suggest to make du'a and pray istikhara.


There happened a case of a girl at the time of the Prophet salla Allaaho alayhi wa sallam. her father did her nikah /or engagement to a man without her consent. She complained to the
Prophet salla Allaaho alayhi wa sallam. He salla Allaaho alayhi wa sallam nullified it and then asked the girl as to what was her objection against the man proposed by her father. She said that she had no objection against him but she only wanted to prove the right of a girl concerning her marriage partner.


There are fathers who reject every good proposal because they want to keep an earning daughter unmarried. Such fathers actually make the earning daughters object of sacrifice for the benefit of their sons. There are also fathers and mothers who will reject a proposal (liked by their daughter) only because they are the owners of property and they want her husband to be from their relatives so that her share in the property will go to a relative. All of such actions are not Islamic. According to a hadeeth in Abu Dawood (given in the post of Zzz above), she can go to the Court and make the Muslim Judge / Imam/ Ruler her Wali. The Hadeeth says: "If they dispute then the Ruler is the guardian of the one who has no guardian". Now here is a case of dispute therefore she can take a Muslim ruler or Judge to be her Wali. BUT she has to take a Wali. Marriage without a Wali is not valid. This Command is for the benefit of girls. As man is strong. He is not given a chance to play and take benefit of the weak status of a girl. So in comparison to the strong man, girl is strengthened by a male Wali.
 
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Not correct.

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Masha-Allah, this is very true and correct statement. May Allah bless you for conveying the Truth.


Those imams gave the same advice to follow what is in accordance with the Holy Quraan and the Sunnah. But the exaggerations came from the people of the
later
times.

Indeed, they were their students who themselves were mujtahid like imam abu yusuf, imam Muhammad, imam yahya, imam ibnul qasim, imam abdullah b ahmad etc, us, the random people, were not advised.


Commenting on these statements, Imam an-Nawawi (rahmatullah alayh) says:

"This which Imam ash-Shaafi has said does not mean that everyone who sees a sahih Hadith should say "This is the mathhab of ash-Shaafi," thus practicing on the zaahir (text/external or apparent meaning) of the Haditli.

This most certainly applies to only such a person who has the rank of ijtihad in the mathhab. It is a condition that he overwhelmingly believes that Imam ash-Shaafi was unaware of this Hadith or he was unaware of its authenticity. And this is possible only after having made a research of all the books of ash-Shaafi and similar other books of the Ashaab of ash-Shaafi, those who take (knowledge) from him and others similar to these (books). This is indeed a difficult condition (to fulfill). Few are there who measure up to this (standard).
What we have explained has been made conditional because Imam ash-Shaafi had abandoned acting on the zaahir (text) of many Ahadith, which he say and knew. However, by him was established proof for criticism in the Hadith or its abrogation or it's specific circumstance or its interpretation, etc. Hence, he was constrained to leave aside the hadith." (Ilaaus Sunan, Vol. 2, page 225)

Shaykh Abu Amr (rahmatullah alayh) said:

"It is not easy to act according to the aparrent (zahir) text of what Imam ash-Shaafi said. It is not lawful for (even) every Faqeeh (qualified Aalim who has deep insight) to act indepently with that which opines to be proof from the Hadith." (Ilaus Sunan, Vol. 2, page 225)

It also appears in Ilaaus Sunan of Muhaddith Zafar Ahmad Uthmani (rahmatullah alayh):

"Imam Sha'raani has also narrated it (i.e. the statement "When the authenticity of a Hadith is established, it is my mathhab."), attributing it to the four Imams. It is not hidden (from understanding) that this is for the one who has the ability (insight and qualifications) in the Nusoos and the knowledge of its clear laws and abrogations." Volume 2, page 226.

Discussing this statement in his treatise, Shaykh Yusuf bin Ismaail Nibhaani says

"Verily, the statement: "When the Hadith has been authenticated, then it is my mathhab" has been narrated from each of these four Imams who were free from personal opinion. The audience to whom this statement ("When the Hadith is Sahih, it is my mathhab.") was directed, is on his (the imam's) Ashaab (the Fuqaha of his Mathhab) who were the great and illustrious Aimmah among the great 'Ulama of his mathhab, those who where the Ahl at-Tarjeeh (a high category of 'Ulama). All of them who were the haafizeen of the Hadith of Rasulullah (s.a.s.) were fully aware of the daleels (proofs) of all the mathhabs These are the ones whom the Imam (of the mathhab) had directed his statement: "When the Hadith is Sahih, it is my mathhab" Verily, they (these great Fuqaha) are able to reconcile between the Hadith from which the Imam had derived proof, and the latest Hadith which was established as authentic after the Imam. They (these illustrious Fuqaha) can see which of the two Hadiths is more authentic, stronger and which of the two Hadiths is the later one so that the later one can be the Naasikh (abrogator) for the earlier one." (Hujjatullah alal Aalameen)
 
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