Mingling and Mixing of sexes

dishdash · May 6, 2006

Silver Pearl said:
I would like everyone to refrain from addressing others (whether they be Muslim or not) with insultive terminologies.

Nahid

It is quite ironical that you preferred to ignore my post which addressed all your previous comments but skimmed to the posts that have resulted in ad hominem argument.

At least we have all acknowledged that you’re not trying to elevate your status to the likes of knowledgeable scholars.

Although your statement is correct you phrased it poorly, a flaw which could cause anyone to fall into the wrong pit really. Everyone of us as muslims should acquire knowledge. There is an element of choice in the matter, after all we are beings with free-will and thus everything we do has a degree of choice.

I do not recall any scholar saying that they were perfect. Thus it would be idiotic (to phrase it clumsily) for us to even think that these scholars attributed themselves to being perfected. One should not pour words into others mouth.

Ancient experts of the Quran are not the end of the line and no one has said that but rather we can not demolish their work simply because it does not quite fit in with our new 'modern' ways of life.

You baffle me with some of the commnets you make, it seems clear that you have a sweet tooth for ripping apart the likes of respected scholars and you have gone to the extent of naming Abu Hurayra (rahimullah) as being baised towards women. the implication. Ah, my only advice would be that it is best and wise for you to study Islam without holding ideologies based on what you believe should be Islam.

Opinions are of little weight, actually opinions are insignificant and as you continue to hurl your thoughts it will be viewed lightly as you have no prove. As i stated before bring forth evidence for your spouting and all shall be fine. If you can not then say nothing.

The doors of ijtihad are always open....open to those who have ilm (knowledge) not the next random person who has read few books here and there and is unwary of much of its interpretation.

there aren't limited scholars, rather the contrary but because your views are shared by such small percentage that are refuted by most scholars it is dismissed. It is evident that you do limit yourself, after all, you consider the number of scholars to be limited and that does give the impression that you only seem to have eyes for small portion of scholars. As for the rest you have a yearn to dismiss them because you do not approve.

You contradict yourself, you have done the opposite of what you have said. As for you being the only unveiled sister in the MSA sister's group then that is your choice. Don't turn up with a kufi for firstly it is designed for men and secondly you should not care about people's opinion about you. If you're not going to veil yourself for God then don't do it for humans.

It is a rant but that does not matter....

It is quite ironical that you preferred to ignore my post which addressed all your previous comments but skimmed to the posts that have resulted in ad hominem argument. (quoted from what i said at the beginning)

Disagree is a word used too lightly which really means nothing in this context, be specific. I think what you meant to say is La ikraha fee deen (there is no complusion in deen). Don't be selective....that ayah which follows ayah al-kursi is alot longer. With a lot of meaning.....

And that is how it is....don't do something for others but for the creator.

Sabrun jameel

Those who are well versed than you have more authority than you, unless you can measure up to their level of knowledge it is wise we refrain from speaking.

You know the answer to it but you are reluctant to face up to it.

Respect works both ways.....you can't expect to get respect if you do not show respect in the first place. Nonetheless it is your call.

I think that is enough talk together unless you will surprise me with evidence to support your claims.

I would say :salamext: but you have a tendescy of not returning them.

Oh dear Pearly... I actually had a reasonable amount of respect for you from elsewhere, but you have chipped a whole hunk of it away as of this post.

You have points aplenty here - good ones. And yet you choose the path of sledging the sister - and taking great satisfaction in doing so. Almost self-congratulatory. Hmmm... where's the love?! Where's the hikma?! Haha! At least when I do that, I try and turn it around so the lesson is taken without complete humiliation. Well, sometimes anyway.

Nahid

"The danger of less-qualified individuals misunderstanding the sources and hence damaging the Shari`ah is a very real one, as was shown by the discord and strife which afflicted some early Muslims—and even some of the Companions themselves—in the period which preceded the establishment of the Orthodox Schools. Prior to Islam, entire religions had been subverted by inadequate scriptural scholarship, so it was vital that Islam be secure from a comparable fate.

In order to protect the Shariah from the danger of innovation and distortion, the great scholars of usul laid down rigorous conditions which must be fulfilled by anyone wishing to claim the right of ijtihad for himself.[43] These conditions include:

(a) mastery of the Arabic language, to minimise the possibility of misinterpreting Revelation on purely linguistic grounds;

(b) a profound knowledge of the Quran and Sunnah and the circumstances surrounding the revelation of each verse and hadith, together with a full knowledge of the Quranic and hadith commentaries, and a control of all the interpretative techniques discussed above;

(c) knowledge of the specialised disciplines of hadith, such as the assessment of narrators and of the matn [text];

(d) knowledge of the views of the Companions, Followers and the great imams, and of the positions and reasoning expounded in the textbooks of fiqh, combined with the knowledge of cases where a consensus (ijma) has been reached;

(e) knowledge of the science of juridical analogy (qiyas), its types and conditions;

(f) knowledge of ones own society and of public interest (maslahah);

(g) knowing the general objectives (maqasid) of the Shariah;

(h) a high degree of intelligence and personal piety, combined with the Islamic virtues of compassion, courtesy, and modesty.

A scholar who has fulfilled these conditions can be considered a mujtahid fil-shar, and is not obliged, or even permitted, to follow an existing authoritative madhhab" - Abdel Hakim Murad in UNderstanding the 4 Madhabs.

I'd suggest having a look through this work.

Wasalaam

NahidSarvy · May 6, 2006

Peace, Silver Pearl

I am not an Arabic speaker, so I say "Peace". I could say, "Peace be upon you and the mercy of God and blessing!" but it takes a long time to type. There is no disrespect here.

I must admit, I have never had anyone criticise me for saying "Peace!" online before rather than typing in a pre-written Arabic phrase.

As for ad hominem attacks, I have not made any. I am not showing disrespect by disagreeing. I also did not say scholars claimed to be infallible, but they are often treated as such by modern Muslims.

I have not issued any fatawâ. I have expressed my opinions in disagreement with the piece. I'm not sure what you mean about carrying down something said from your original post... I was replying to Dishdash.

I feel I brought forth my criticisms already to what was said in ~Mu'minah~'s post. It starts with a seed and then begins to construct an argument that women and men must not mingle.

I criticised the argument because I disagreed that its foundation was solid. I cited several points that seemed to me to contradict what was written. That essay explicitly draws conclusions from evidence, and I do not agree with the train of thinking. Derail the train and the conclusions are not correct.

As for the bit about my opinions, am I not allowed to criticise what I see as a problem without giving a long and dedicated fatwa to replace it? I can see a problem even if I cannot provide all the answers I raise. This is why this is a forum - so we can talk about things.

And excuse me, but your statement

Those who are well versed than you have more authority than you, unless you can measure up to their level of knowledge it is wise we refrain from speaking.

is a thinly-veiled "sit down and shut up". I am allowed to comment on Islam as much as every other person on this forum; just because there is a chorus that I don't always fit into doesn't make me wrong, only different.

As for my choice of scholars, my heart moves with the tide of faith, and when I see wrongness, I listen to those who speak the truth. Claiming that we don't each make decisions about which scholars' works are more important to us is silly; we each decide, based on our faith, what we believe is true.

I move from my experiences as a Muslim woman. I have already said I read a wide variety of texts, and that I have found that certain scholars - no matter that they are a minority - speak to my heart and head. I have experienced sexism in mosques. I have seen un-Islamic cultural traditions supported by weak arguments. I have seen dissent crushed, people kicked out of mosques. These things have affected me and have made me seek out the truth of matters. Does my faith create a network of oppression?

Resoundingly, the answer is no. How could it be otherwise? So I listened and read, and learned that there are scholars who are educated and disagree with modern "Islamiyyin" and other revivalist movements' lack of understanding.

If women wish to wear the veil, they should. I am not arguing that anyone should change their personal behaviours. I am, however, going to express my opinions when I see faulty reasonings or problematic rationalisations.

And here's my thought: the Qur'ân demands modesty and that we "lower our eyes". Let me put it in other terms: imagine we demanded our hands be wrapped in duct tape so that we don't accidentally do something wrong with them because the Qur'ân says not to do various bad things. By the same token, I do not agree that the idea of lowering the eyes and modesty means men and women cannot mix.

Part of this is because I ask about how the community constructs the idea of male and female.

Okay: let's take a step back again. Imagine you are part of the community of people who are intersexed, transgendered or the like. Now tell me - which bathroom do you use?

This is not a joke. This is a huge problem for people, and not an insignificant number of them. The whole world is not just BOYS and GIRLS. If you are lucky enough to be born without this problem, then you are fine. But many people are not. If you can't even use a bathroom safely - because you will be assaulted by police, angry boyfriends, or the men in the bathroom - how can you know who you are supposed to be avoiding?

Maybe that's too much to handle. I challenge everyone to try to understand, though. I mean, if al-Azhar scholars and the Ayatollah Khomeini support transgendered persons in fatawâ, there must be some humanity in them, right?

So, in closing to my rambling post:
I don't have the answers to everything in which I see problems.
There are a diversity of scholarly opinions.
The world isn't black & white, and looking to the Umma we must look to all of it, not just the privileged and lucky.
Oh, and I say "Peace" instead of the Arabic because we are conversing in English and I also hate those little icon-y things, so don't be offended. Please don't, I'm not disrespecting, I'm giving and returning the greetings.

Nahid

NahidSarvy · May 6, 2006

dishdash said:
The danger of less-qualified individuals misunderstanding the sources and hence damaging the Shari`ah is a very real one, as was shown by the discord and strife which afflicted some early Muslims—and even some of the Companions themselves—in the period which preceded the establishment of the Orthodox Schools. Prior to Islam, entire religions had been subverted by inadequate scriptural scholarship, so it was vital that Islam be secure from a comparable fate.

In order to protect the Shariah from the danger of innovation and distortion, the great scholars of usul laid down rigorous conditions which must be fulfilled by anyone wishing to claim the right of ijtihad for himself.[43] These conditions include:

(a) mastery of the Arabic language, to minimise the possibility of misinterpreting Revelation on purely linguistic grounds;

(b) a profound knowledge of the Quran and Sunnah and the circumstances surrounding the revelation of each verse and hadith, together with a full knowledge of the Quranic and hadith commentaries, and a control of all the interpretative techniques discussed above;

(c) knowledge of the specialised disciplines of hadith, such as the assessment of narrators and of the matn [text];

(d) knowledge of the views of the Companions, Followers and the great imams, and of the positions and reasoning expounded in the textbooks of fiqh, combined with the knowledge of cases where a consensus (ijma) has been reached;

(e) knowledge of the science of juridical analogy (qiyas), its types and conditions;

(f) knowledge of ones own society and of public interest (maslahah);

(g) knowing the general objectives (maqasid) of the Shariah;

(h) a high degree of intelligence and personal piety, combined with the Islamic virtues of compassion, courtesy, and modesty.

A scholar who has fulfilled these conditions can be considered a mujtahid fil-shar, and is not obliged, or even permitted, to follow an existing authoritative madhhab" - Abdel Hakim Murad in UNderstanding the 4 Madhabs.

I'd suggest having a look through this work.

Peace, Dishdash.

I am aware of those constraints. It is hard to find good scholars!

I spoke of a day I might write something of worth, but what we really need is a new generation. By this, I meant that someday, I might have something useful to say in a coherent manner, but that deep scholarship can only be learned over a lifetime of committment. This is something that also tends to make people very conservative, trapped in their books and established patterns of thinking.

I agree totally with the requirements, but there is also a place for people who have learning but are not mujtahid fi sh-shar. There are people who have useful knowledge and can write on topics intelligently and with both faith and scholastic merit. Abou el Fadl, Amina Wadud, Asma Barlas: these three have skillz, as we might say, and their contributions should not be ignored, nor should works by Muslims about their faith.

Only a handful will ever be mujtahid fi sh-shar, but we can learn from others as well. The history of Islam is full of scholars who grew in wisdom and learning and became important, changing the face of Islam and the Umma.

ishkabab · May 6, 2006

dishdash said:
Good post. Stay at home and none of this should ever be a problem.

if it were that easy...lol

dishdash · May 6, 2006

I don't think the answer to a lack of good scholars is to come to uninformed conclusions yourself. The answer is actually train to become a scholar. And yes, that is a lifetime's dedication and not something that everyone can do. May God reward the Ulema over and over... Closeting oneself away from the dunya in your opinion makes people conservative and trapped in their books and established patterns of thinking - for me that is a protection from the fitna's of the dunya. A true religion does not need to be synchronised with the 21st century. It is the 21st century that needs to be synchronised with a true religion.

aamirsaab · May 6, 2006

dishdash said:
Closeting oneself away from the dunya in your opinion makes people conservative and trapped in their books and established patterns of thinking - for me that is a protection from the fitna's of the dunya.

People deal with fitnah in different ways.

A true religion does not need to be synchronised with the 21st century. It is the 21st century that needs to be synchronised with a true religion.

Agreed.

Silver Pearl · May 6, 2006

:salamext:

Dish dash

I did not ‘sledge’ the sister; I have nothing personal against the sister. This is not a humiliation quarters and that was not the intention of my post.

Nahid

Before I proceed with the post I would like to apologise, if my previous post sounded harsh in any form or shape then do forgive me sister. I did not mean to wrong you with my words and may Allah (subhana wa ta’ala) forgive me.

I am not an Arabic speaker, so I say "Peace". I could say, "Peace be upon you and the mercy of God and blessing!" but it takes a long time to type. There is no disrespect here.

I must admit, I have never had anyone criticise me for saying "Peace!" online before rather than typing in a pre-written Arabic phrase.

Peace and blessings be upon you too.

As I’m aware of your preference now, I shall try my utmost best in the future to address you with the English translation of the salaam, sorry on the misunderstanding.

As for ad hominem attacks, I have not made any. I am not showing disrespect by disagreeing. I also did not say scholars claimed to be infallible, but they are often treated as such by modern Muslims.

You’re quite right, I did not accuse you of such thing, rather if you look at my previous post I said that others resulted in ad hominem attack.

I will not disagree with you that some Muslims do make out scholars to be infallible but the errors of Muslims should not surprise us. We are all humans, and certainly not immune to sinning.

I criticised the argument because I disagreed that its foundation was solid. I cited several points that seemed to me to contradict what was written. That essay explicitly draws conclusions from evidence, and I do not agree with the train of thinking. Derail the train and the conclusions are not correct.

As for the bit about my opinions, am I not allowed to criticise what I see as a problem without giving a long and dedicated fatwa to replace it? I can see a problem even if I cannot provide all the answers I raise. This is why this is a forum - so we can talk about things.

It is fine to disagree with something but it is better that you have evidence to support your claim. Although I agree with most of the article, I do not agree with the use of the verse from Ahzab where it tells women to speak from behind a screen because that verse speaks about umm-al-mu’minoon only and thus it has placed out of context. We are all entitled to critise but it has to have some element of evidence behind it.

Yes this is a forum, a discussion board but people still want evidence, human nature.

And excuse me, but your statementis a thinly-veiled "sit down and shut up". I am allowed to comment on Islam as much as every other person on this forum; just because there is a chorus that I don't always fit into doesn't make me wrong, only different.

There was not a subtle double standard behind my statement; it is for the benefit of both of us. I would not challenge you in something I did not know and thus it is stupid of us to challenge scholars when we do not acquire the same level of ilm. I did not mean for my words to come across as being harsh.

I move from my experiences as a Muslim woman. I have already said I read a wide variety of texts, and that I have found that certain scholars - no matter that they are a minority - speak to my heart and head. I have experienced sexism in mosques. I have seen un-Islamic cultural traditions supported by weak arguments. I have seen dissent crushed, people kicked out of mosques. These things have affected me and have made me seek out the truth of matters. Does my faith create a network of oppression?

I have seen many horrendous acts committed by muslims who try and push their manners as being Islamic. If I took Islam by the example set by the Muslims I had come across, I’d have run from Islam quicker than bolt of lightning but alhamdulillah, I know that we should not follow Islam by the example of people.

If women wish to wear the veil, they should. I am not arguing that anyone should change their personal behaviours. I am, however, going to express my opinions when I see faulty reasonings or problematic rationalisations.

No harm in that, strong characteristics to have but those opinions need evidence especially when you’re justifying your opinions about seeing something as being a faulty conclusion. Surely you can see where I am coming from.

And here's my thought: the Qur'ân demands modesty and that we "lower our eyes". Let me put it in other terms: imagine we demanded our hands be wrapped in duct tape so that we don't accidentally do something wrong with them because the Qur'ân says not to do various bad things. By the same token, I do not agree that the idea of lowering the eyes and modesty means men and women cannot mix.

Islam is based on the Qur’an and Sunnah, it is fine for men and women to interact but on the basis that it is necessary, Going out for a moment of relaxation after work does pass as being necessary. This is to ensure that no inappropriate feelings are built and so that a haram relationship does not occur. Of course everything starts of being simple but whispering of evil thoughts never quite leave our sub conscience and when they do surface our conscience it is possible that we act upon it. Better to be save than sorry on the matter. There are certain things as humans we may not agree with but our creator knows us better than us.

Part of this is because I ask about how the community constructs the idea of male and female.

Okay: let's take a step back again. Imagine you are part of the community of people who are intersexed, transgendered or the like. Now tell me - which bathroom do you use?

This is not a joke. This is a huge problem for people, and not an insignificant number of them. The whole world is not just BOYS and GIRLS. If you are lucky enough to be born without this problem, then you are fine. But many people are not. If you can't even use a bathroom safely - because you will be assaulted by police, angry boyfriends, or the men in the bathroom - how can you know who you are supposed to be avoiding?

Maybe that's too much to handle. I challenge everyone to try to understand, though. I mean, if al-Azhar scholars and the Ayatollah Khomeini support transgendered persons in fatawâ, there must be some humanity in them, right?

We are not discussing the case of people who suffer from transgender, that issue is different and its ruling is different. I don’t know a great deal on this but I’ll try and find something. I’ll PM you it so that the topic does not divert from the main topic.

True, nothing is ever black and white.

Peace

NahidSarvy · May 7, 2006

Silver Pearl said:
Before I proceed with the post I would like to apologise, if my previous post sounded harsh in any form or shape then do forgive me sister. I did not mean to wrong you with my words and may Allah (subhana wa ta’ala) forgive me.

Peace, Silver Pearl.

Thank you for your kind apology; I have a thick hide but I still appreciate your thoughtfulness.

Silver Pearl said:
As I’m aware of your preference now, I shall try my utmost best in the future to address you with the English translation of the salaam, sorry on the misunderstanding.

That is most kind. Personally, I find a greeting much more sincere when uttered in the language of common discourse rather than just auto-framing one's posts with pre-set images, but I am clearly a maverick. Please continue to write as it pleases you, whether in English or in Arabic.

Silver Pearl said:
It is fine to disagree with something but it is better that you have evidence to support your claim. Although I agree with most of the article, I do not agree with the use of the verse from Ahzab where it tells women to speak from behind a screen because that verse speaks about umm-al-mu’minoon only and thus it has placed out of context. We are all entitled to critise but it has to have some element of evidence behind it.

Yes this is a forum, a discussion board but people still want evidence, human nature.

Absolutely.

Silver Pearl said:
I have seen many horrendous acts committed by muslims who try and push their manners as being Islamic. If I took Islam by the example set by the Muslims I had come across, I’d have run from Islam quicker than bolt of lightning but alhamdulillah, I know that we should not follow Islam by the example of people.

Yes. It is faith that guides us when things are difficult.

Silver Pearl said:
No harm in that, strong characteristics to have but those opinions need evidence especially when you’re justifying your opinions about seeing something as being a faulty conclusion. Surely you can see where I am coming from.

Yes.

Silver Pearl said:
Islam is based on the Qur’an and Sunnah, it is fine for men and women to interact but on the basis that it is necessary, Going out for a moment of relaxation after work does pass as being necessary. This is to ensure that no inappropriate feelings are built and so that a haram relationship does not occur. Of course everything starts of being simple but whispering of evil thoughts never quite leave our sub conscience and when they do surface our conscience it is possible that we act upon it. Better to be save than sorry on the matter. There are certain things as humans we may not agree with but our creator knows us better than us.

Ah, but I think there is much to discuss about what constitutes danger and how we should approach the issue of modesty and avoiding adultery.

I would like to say I can rattle off proofs, but I can't. First, I have to leave, so I can't do it now. Second, I need to do some research, because part of this relates to the issue of the ahâdith being quoted.

Silver Pearl said:
We are not discussing the case of people who suffer from transgender, that issue is different and its ruling is different. I don’t know a great deal on this but I’ll try and find something. I’ll PM you it so that the topic does not divert from the main topic.

N.B. we can start a new thread, if you'd like. You can see some information on Wikipedia about this issue here: Legal Status of Transgendered Persons in Iran.

NJUSA · May 8, 2006

I'm uncomfortable with gender based segregation not just because of its impracticality and its tendency to create inferior conditions for women, but because it presents a cultural practice that originated outside an Islamic context as being an Islamic ideal, where, if one examines the Madinan paradigm, one knows that this was far from universally practiced. There were some women (e.g. the Mothers of the Believers) who were at some point secluded from society. But there are other examples, described in ahdith and referred to obliquely in the Qur'an, where women were a part of public life for religious, economic, and social reasons. People met for the purposes of doing business, pursuing education, and enjoying one another's company in public, regardless of gender. The injunctions on dress and appropriate conduct in public help to create a space where women are free from harassment as they conduct their daily lives. Barring women from public life has proved unhealthy for society, and jeapordizes a community's ability to provide safety, prosperity, and dignity for all its members.

Umm Yoosuf · May 8, 2006

Assalaamu Alaikum NJUSA

I don't think anyone is denying that women are part of society. Yes indeed they play a vital part. It is we (women) who bring up new generations, it is we who are the first of teachers and we (women) are the twin halves of men.

What is prohibited by the Law of Islam (Shari'ah) is the meeting together, mixing, and intermingling of men and women in one place, the crowding of them together, and the revealing and exposure of women to men. And there is much evidence for this and ( have posted ONLY few evidence)

(Surat An-Nuur)

(Say to the believing men that they should lower their gaze and guard their modesty: that will make for greater purity for them: and Allah is well acquainted with all that they do.

And say to the believing women that they should lower their gaze and guard their modesty; that they should not display their beauty and ornaments except what (must ordinarily) appear thereof; that they should draw their veils over their bosoms and not display their beauty except to their husbands, their fathers, their husbands' fathers, their sons, their husbands' sons, their brothers or their brothers' sons, or their sisters' sons, or their women, or the slaves whom their right hands possess, or male servants free of physical needs, or small children who have no sense of the shame of sex; ....)

(Surat An-Nuur 31).

(... and that they should not strike their feet in order to draw attention to their hidden ornaments. And O ye Believers! turn ye all together towards Allah, that ye may attain Bliss)
"Surat Al-A7zaab:59".
(O Prophet! tell thy wives and daughters, and the believing women, that they should cast their outer garments over their persons (when abroad): that is most convenient, that they should be known (as such) and not molested. And Allah is Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful.)

Umm Salamah (May Allah be pleased with her) said that after Allah’s Messenger (May peace and blessings be upon him) said "as-Salamu ‘Alaykum wa Rahmatullah’ twice announcing the end of prayer, women would stand up and leave. He would stay for a while before leaving. Ibn Shihab said that he thought that the staying of the Prophet (May peace and blessings be upon him) was in order for the women to be able to leave before the men who wanted to depart." Narrated by al-Bukhari under No. 793.

Abu Dawood under No. 876 narrates the same hadith in Kitab al-Salaat under the title "Insiraaf an-Nisaa’ Qabl al-Rijaal min al-Salaah" (Departure of Women before Men after the Prayer). Ibn ‘Umar said that Allah’s Messenger (May peace and blessings be upon him) said: "We should leave this door (of the mosque) for women." Naafi’ said: "Ibn ‘Umar never again entered through that door until he died." Narrated by Abu Dawood under No. 484 in "Kitab as-Salah" under the Chapter entitled: "at-Tashdid fi Thalik".

Abu Hurayrah said that the Prophet (May peace and blessings be upon him) said: ""The best of the men’s rows is the first and the worst is the last, and the best of the women’s rows is the last and the worst in the first." Narrated by Muslim under No. 664.

Free mixing is the root to ALL EVILS. Look at the problems of the world around us today be it the West or the East. How many stories have you heard of where a man/woman run of with her lover? How many men/women have you heard of having affairs? What is the solution to these problems?

Muhammad · May 8, 2006