Bully advice

[glo]

Re: reversion help, finally some people to talk to!

Hi Fishman

I gather from Muhammad's link that Islam teaches no contradictions with the general evaolution theory (it neither proofs nor disproofs it), but is quite clear on human being created rather than evolved.

As a scientifically minded person, where do you stand in believing in evolution generally, but not in human evolution?

I quote from Muhammad's previous link (#127):

The Prophet (peace be upon him) identified the "male" mentioned in this verse as being Adam. He said: “Human beings are the children of Adam and Adam was created from Earth. Allah says: ‘O mankind! We have created you from a male and a female, and made you into nations and tribes, that you may know one another. Verily, the most honorable of you with Allah is the one who is the most God-fearing’.” [Sunan al-Tirmidhî (3270)]

The highlighted sentence seems to contradict the evolution theory, but only if you read 'created' to mean 'formed by hand'. Could it not mean created through evolution?

What do you make of this?

Peace.

 

[Fishman]

Re: reversion help, finally some people to talk to!

Hi Fishman

I gather from Muhammad's link that Islam teaches no contradictions with the general evaolution theory (it neither proofs nor disproofs it), but is quite clear on human being created rather than evolved.

As a scientifically minded person, where do you stand in believing in evolution generally, but not in human evolution?

I quote from Muhammad's previous link (#127):

The highlighted sentence seems to contradict the evolution theory, but only if you read 'created' to mean 'formed by hand'. Could it not mean created through evolution?

What do you make of this?

Peace.

According to Islam, man was created in Heaven (not Eden) and was then sent down to Earth. I can think of two explanations that do not conflict with the Quran or the scientific evidence:
1. Adam and Eve (pbut) were created in Heaven, but when they were sent down, their souls were put into the bodies of humans that had evolved.

2. Adam and Eve were created in Heaven, with their bodies and minds an improved version of the earlier type of human called homo sapiens (today we are homo sapiens sapiens). They were then sent down to Earth.

Both of them cannot be disproved, unless we invent a time machine. Number one seems more scientific, whilst number two fits the Quran more carefully.

Islam does not claim that evolution is impossible, or make the mistakes of previous scripture. Islam does reject things like the gaia hypothesis or the selfish gene theory, because they are attempts to explain the meaning of life from an atheist perspective.

What do you think, brothers and sisters?

 

[Sohrab]

Re: reversion help, finally some people to talk to!

Actually I've heard Scholars (ulema) having differing opinion on this evolution subject. The one's who don't reject it totally, have the opinion as brother Fishman has stated in the first possibility. The point to make is if your theory of evolution makes you think that this world and all the living beings, and all the universe came into being just by chance, no purpose behind their creation, and it's all going to keep on evolving with no ending, and that's why there's no creator God/Allah....then most certainly it's a very wrong concept. And most of the scholars reject it purely because of this reason. Others say that evolution and islam are in some ways compatible, and to them accepting evolution doesn't necessarily mean denial of creator, or rejection of islam.

 

[Fishman]

Re: reversion help, finally some people to talk to!

Actually I've heard Scholars (ulema) having differing opinion on this evolution subject. The one's who don't reject it totally, have the opinion as brother Fishman has stated in the first possibility. The point to make is if your theory of evolution makes you think that this world and all the living beings, and all the universe came into being just by chance, no purpose behind their creation, and it's all going to keep on evolving with no ending, and that's why there's no creator God/Allah....then most certainly it's a very wrong concept. And most of the scholars reject it purely because of this reason. Others say that evolution and islam are in some ways compatible, and to them accepting evolution doesn't necessarily mean denial of creator, or rejection of islam.

There are two types of evolution. Theistic evolution says that Allah controls evolution. That's the kind I believe in. Atheistic evolution, on the other hand, says that there is nothing controlling evolution, and the only purpose of life is to pass on DNA to the next generation.

Why do most scholars reject it because of this? Darwin didn't become an atheist because of science, he lost faith because of the death of his daughter. He said that his discovery posed no threat to religion.

Please support me, brothers and sisters, I'm probably going to have a rather difficult time because I've told my non-Muslim friends. I should have just let the Muslims know.

 

[Skillganon]

Re: reversion help, finally some people to talk to!

I think their is a big problem when sometime people start thinking theory as absolute fact, maybe one day another theory will replace the previouse. This has been shown in the past.

 

[Fishman]

Re: reversion help, finally some people to talk to!

I think their is a big problem when sometime people start thinking theory as absolute fact, maybe one day another theory will replace the previouse. This has been shown in the past.

Sorry skillganon, you have made a mistake with the definition of 'theory'. Whilst popular language says that 'theory' means 'guess or conjecture', the real definition is 'a discription of how a system works'. In a design and technology class, the lessons where your teacher explains how something works are called theory lessons.

Theories do replace each other, but today this usually occurs in the cutting-edge of subjects, such as cosmology. I doubt evolution will be replaced.

I would rather be a creationist than someone who believes in evolution, but the evidence for evolution is overwhelming.

I think we should get off this subject now, since Root or Heigou are probably going to mistake it for a debate topic!

Could anyone answer my questions about images and praying that I asked earlier?

 

[glo]

Re: reversion help, finally some people to talk to!

According to Islam, man was created in Heaven (not Eden) and was then sent down to Earth. I can think of two explanations that do not conflict with the Quran or the scientific evidence:
1. Adam and Eve (pbut) were created in Heaven, but when they were sent down, their souls were put into the bodies of humans that had evolved.

2. Adam and Eve were created in Heaven, with their bodies and minds an improved version of the earlier type of human called homo sapiens (today we are homo sapiens sapiens). They were then sent down to Earth.

Both of them cannot be disproved, unless we invent a time machine. Number one seems more scientific, whilst number two fits the Quran more carefully.

Islam does not claim that evolution is impossible, or make the mistakes of previous scripture. Islam does reject things like the gaia hypothesis or the selfish gene theory, because they are attempts to explain the meaning of life from an atheist perspective.

What do you think, brothers and sisters?

Thank you for putting your views across. That's very interesting, and demonstrates that you have put a lot of thought into this.

Peace.

 

[Skillganon]

Re: reversion help, finally some people to talk to!

Sorry skillganon, you have made a mistake with the definition of 'theory'. Whilst popular language says that 'theory' means 'guess or conjecture', the real definition is 'a discription of how a system works'. In a design and technology class, the lessons where your teacher explains how something works are called theory lessons.

Theories do replace each other, but today this usually occurs in the cutting-edge of subjects, such as cosmology. I doubt evolution will be replaced.

I would rather be a creationist than someone who believes in evolution, but the evidence for evolution is overwhelming.

I think we should get off this subject now, since Root or Heigou are probably going to mistake it for a debate topic!

Could anyone answer my questions about images and praying that I asked earlier?

I know what theory is, I did not say it was just guess or conjecture's, I been studyng science for most of my life. All I am saying is you should not take it as factual. One theory might hold more weight than another, because of number of reason, either more work is done on it, or the other theory has fallen behind due to technology for such endevour e.t.c.

Here' read this you might find it interesting, it is on philosophy..Karl Popper.

 

[glo]

Re: reversion help, finally some people to talk to!

Please support me, brothers and sisters, I'm probably going to have a rather difficult time because I've told my non-Muslim friends.I should have just let the Muslims know.

I don't agree with you there.
Part of your faith walk will be to hear opposing views of non-believers, work through them and then be able to relate your own views to them.
It doesn't mean that you will always have the right answers to hand, or even to 'win' all arguments.
What I am trying to say is that you will have to learn to understand and respect other views, even if they contradict your own views - and to be able to remain strong in your faith!

It's a great journey you are embarking on! Make the most of it!

Blessings.

 

[Sohrab]

Re: reversion help, finally some people to talk to!

For images and Prayers....Your concern is genuine. Images of Humans and Animals are the ones that should concern you. The best place to pray, i think, is in your own room. You can either remove the images, or then replace them with others like flowers, landscapes etc. In worst case, try not facing them when you're saying the prayers. But don't stop praying just because you find it may be difficult to find a proper room with not images.
May Allah take care you you
Prayers

P.S. "glo" has an excellent point in "What I am trying to say is that you will have to learn to understand and respect other views, even if they contradict your own views - and to be able to remain strong in your faith!" God Bless You

 

[Fishman]

Re: reversion help, finally some people to talk to!

I don't agree with you there.
Part of your faith walk will be to hear opposing views of non-believers, work through them and then be able to relate your own views to them.
It doesn't mean that you will always have the right answers to hand, or even to 'win' all arguments.
What I am trying to say is that you will have to learn to understand and respect other views, even if they contradict your own views - and to be able to remain strong in your faith!

It's a great journey you are embarking on! Make the most of it!

Blessings.

Sorry skillganon. But I'm pretty sure that evolution will not be replaced. It's been studied for over one hundred years and no real opposing evidence has been found.

Glo, the problems were not caused by non-Muslims not agreeing with me. I agree that we should expect other people's views. What caused the problem is one of my non-Muslim friends discouraged me, by saying 'I thought you were a rational person', and saying that he wouldn't have the willpower to do all these things that I will have to do when I'm Muslim. Also, the more people who know, the harder it is to keep it quiet. People are snooping around everywhere, even though we told them that this is important stuff.

I'm still worried about people not accepting me because I believe in evolution. And what about those hadiths that contradict well-established science, such as the age of the Earth, or what shape it is? The Quran does not contradict any science, but these hadith do.

 

[Skillganon]

Re: reversion help, finally some people to talk to!

Sorry skillganon. But I'm pretty sure that evolution will not be replaced. It's been studied for over one hundred years and no real opposing evidence has been found.

Glo, the problems were not caused by non-Muslims not agreeing with me. I agree that we should expect other people's views. What caused the problem is one of my non-Muslim friends discouraged me, by saying 'I thought you were a rational person', and saying that he wouldn't have the willpower to do all these things that I will have to do when I'm Muslim. Also, the more people who know, the harder it is to keep it quiet. People are snooping around everywhere, even though we told them that this is important stuff.

I'm still worried about people not accepting me because I believe in evolution. And what about those hadiths that contradict well-established science, such as the age of the Earth, or what shape it is? The Quran does not contradict any science, but these hadith do.

Maybe you can study those hadith when you are older, and go deeper into it, but like I said it is a scientific enquiry.

 

[Fishman]

Re: reversion help, finally some people to talk to!

For images and Prayers....Your concern is genuine. Images of Humans and Animals are the ones that should concern you. The best place to pray, i think, is in your own room. You can either remove the images, or then replace them with others like flowers, landscapes etc. In worst case, try not facing them when you're saying the prayers. But don't stop praying just because you find it may be difficult to find a proper room with not images.
May Allah take care you you
Prayers

P.S. "glo" has an excellent point in "What I am trying to say is that you will have to learn to understand and respect other views, even if they contradict your own views - and to be able to remain strong in your faith!" God Bless You

I would have to take loads of stuff out of my room to remove any images of people or animals. And as I said before, I share my room with my brother. He's got loads of stuff with images on too.

And how would I pray the prayers that happen in the early morning? My brother would be woken up.

 

[swanlake]

Re: reversion help, finally some people to talk to!

Akhi

If the images are on the walls, try to remove if you can. If the images are in the cupboards or drawers, then it is ok. I will try to find evidence for you inshallah. ABout your prayers in the morning, you can go to the living room quietly and do your prayer there. No one would have to wake up.

 

[Fishman]

Re: reversion help, finally some people to talk to!

Akhi

If the images are on the walls, try to remove if you can. If the images are in the cupboards or drawers, then it is ok. I will try to find evidence for you inshallah. ABout your prayers in the morning, you can go to the living room quietly and do your prayer there. No one would have to wake up.

What about on books?

My Muslim friend has told his grandfather (who is an important person at the Mosque) about me. He says that once I tell my parents, I should come to the classes on Mondays after school.

 

[Muhammad]

Re: reversion help, finally some people to talk to!

Hello Fishman,

Did you have the meeting with your RE teacher, and if so, what were the results?

Regarding the issue of science and religion; as Muslims we do not delve too deep into these matters because they do not affect the way we worship Allaah. Shaykh Saalih Al-Munajjid writes regarding the question about dinosaurs:

Allaah created Adam (peace be upon him) on a Friday, the sixth day from the beginning of creation. Some texts mention what was created on the previous five days, in brief and general terms, but as to the details of what was created, Allaah knows best about that. Questions like this, on which no belief or deeds are to be based, are just meaningless distractions that are of no benefit. Faith does not increase or decrease according to whether one believes in dinosaurs or not. It was reported that the Prophet

(peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) forbade us to occupy ourselves with things that cause confusion and are not clear. We also know that people differ in their views as to whether these dinosaurs existed or they are just figments of the imagination. And Allaah knows best.
http://63.175.194.25/index.php?ln=eng&ds=qa&lv=browse&QR=3668&dgn=4​

So knowing that Allaah is our sole Creator and Sustainer, it is enough for us to accept that He creates what He wills and how He wills. Asking too many questions about how and why and going into excessive details are not of any benefit and therefore we should believe in things as Allaah has taught them and as the Prophet (peace be upon him) and his companions understood them.

As Muslims, we believe in many things that are beyond being provable by science; such as Paradise and Hellfire, the Day of Judgement, Angels and Jinn. So long as we accept Allaah as our Lord and adhere to the guidance He gave us, then it is easy for us to believe in all these things, even if science cannot prove them.

Peace .​

 

[swanlake]

Re: reversion help, finally some people to talk to!

akhi fishman

Images on your books would be ok since it is necessary for your education. Classes would be very good for you to attend inshallah.

About Science...When you believe in God, everything is possible brother in the world of science. We may have proof for some and we may not have proof for lots of things. I was listening on the radio yesterday where they were interveiwing this brain surgeon. She was asked to mention one of the mysteries with regards to ho the brain function. She said 'all scientists are stumped as to how the conscious works and why would someone fall into coma and wake up the next minute.' She said no one knows yet. So my point is as humans are limited in their undertsnading to how the universe works. Allah is the Almighty, All powerful. We certainly cant explain everything. But those we can explain, we know that without Allah's permission none of these would be possible. No ant moves without the permission of Allah. So the big bang either happened with the permission of Allah or It didnt happen. Either way we should accept everything is possible when Allah wills.

 

[glo]

Re: reversion help, finally some people to talk to!

Glo, the problems were not caused by non-Muslims not agreeing with me. I agree that we should expect other people's views. What caused the problem is one of my non-Muslim friends discouraged me, by saying 'I thought you were a rational person', and saying that he wouldn't have the willpower to do all these things that I will have to do when I'm Muslim. Also, the more people who know, the harder it is to keep it quiet. People are snooping around everywhere, even though we told them that this is important stuff

I'm afraid that's the sort of thing non-believers will say to you, because they don't understand what it is like to have a relationship with God.

I'm still worried about people not accepting me because I believe in evolution. And what about those hadiths that contradict well-established science, such as the age of the Earth, or what shape it is? The Quran does not contradict any science, but these hadith do.

I hope you will mature in your beliefs, and find the right path for you!

Peace.

 

[Fishman]

Re: reversion help, finally some people to talk to!

Allaah created Adam (peace be upon him) on a Friday, the sixth day from the beginning of creation.

I missed the meeting because I got a lift to school, which are always slower than walking.

This is the sort of hadith I mean by the hadith that contradict science. There are others too, like the one that says that the sun travels under the Earth through a hole.

If the 'days' of Creation are actually periods of time, as all of the scientific evidence and lots of scholars say, why does this one talk about a Friday?

I got really worried about this subject a few nights ago, and can you give me some answers please?

 

[Fishman]

Re: reversion help, finally some people to talk to!


I've found a site about this subject! No more worries about hadith and science! Ahamdulilah!!! All shreds of doubt are gone!!! ALHAMDULILAH!!!
It's here!