Concept of Hell

[glo]

Thank you for your reply, czgibson.

I must have missed any of your previous references to Émile Durkheim.
I will try to read up on your link when I have the time.

Peace.

 

[czgibson]

Greetings glo,

I must have missed any of your previous references to Émile Durkheim.
I will try to read up on your link when I have the time.

You can find my references to Emile Durkheim in these threads: http://www.islamicboard.com/search/search-id/281671/

The best place to look first is the Development of Theism thread - I brought up Durkheim in post #3. His theory of religion is not something that can be proven, but I find aspects of it very compelling.

Peace

 

[iLL_LeaT]

Greetings,

They are both parts of the system of social control called theistic religion, with god as the enforcer of the moral code and hell as the punishment for breaking that code.

Peace

From anthropologists studying social behaviors from different cultures, we find that all cultures share two things, kinship and religion. So religion is not always a form of control. There are tribes that have never been exposed to any hierarchal type of society that still have religion.

Every culture has someway to define family, some matrimonially, some patrimonially, and some both. Though people define who’s kin differently, every culture has a since of kin. The same goes for religion; every culture naturally has a since of god(s) and some sort of existence after life.

Why? Last term I had a professor who said religion is a survival mechanism. When the pre-homosapiens evolved out of the trees and onto land, there were more dangers then ever before, only the paranoid survived. When the Homo sapiens (possibly even the Homo Neanderthals) roamed the earth, GODS WERE BORN!!!! But the Gods were scary, and to be feared. Moreover, there where Gods everywhere; there were tree gods, volcano gods, water gods, etc… Those who didn’t have a since of any kind of scary super being are now all dead because they didn’t stay away from the tree god that happened to be hiding a bare or what ever. Religion, a survival mechanism.

Another theory of why all humans have a since of religion. Something new to Homo sapiens, we have a since of time. This is may be why H. Sapiens survived and the H. Neanderthals did not. During rough times, the H. Sapiens could predict what they would need in the future to survive, and the H. Neanderthals could not. With this since of time, one might thing, “So, what happens to me when I die?” or “What happened before I was born?” And the afterlife is born!!!

One more “atheistic” theory of how religion came to be. Self-preservation, a horrible fear of self’s existence coming to a halt could be why all humans have religion. Having been an atheist, I came to the realization that after life there could be NOTHING, and truly coming to this realization can create some uncomfortable anxiety. So, religion could be a wall between the mind and that anxiety.

And finally, a religious point of view. Religion is some kind of mechanism that helps humans cope with this reality, but that was Gods plan. Muslims believe that religion and truth is built into the soul of humans (Correct me if I am wrong). Maybe it was all part of some plan to have humans as religious creatures, and that anxiety is like a street sign that points people into the right direction.

 

[czgibson]

Greetings iLL_LeaT,

Firstly, where do you get your name from?!

Secondly, I can see there's a lot of sense in what you say. The idea that religion is a survival mechanism is definitely one that is common currency among evolutionary biologists.

The other theories you mention are also aspects of Durkheim's theory of religion, which I mentioned above. The foremost of these is the idea of fear of the unknown, which you connected with the human sense of time giving rise to belief in the afterlife.

You also mention the "religion is a comfort" argument, which is quite intuitive.

I think I may not have been clear in my phrasing - I mentioned social control, which you seem to have interpreted in a purely political sense. That is part of it, but only at a more advanced level. The basic form of control is the moral code, and only later does this give rise to politics. The point is that god (or gods) is / are the moral enforcer(s) that have to be appeased though good behaviour, sacrifice and rituals - this is closer to the idea I had in mind when I referred to "social control".

Either way, we've wandered off topic, so apologies to the mods. We seem to have got back to the Development of Theism.

Peace

 

[IbnAbdulHakim]

eace:

I need to ask, Do you both consider the prophets to be characters of fiction? Im talking about jesus, moses, MUHAMMAD (saws)??

eace:

 

[snakelegs]

a question for those who believe in heaven and hell:
if you were given proof (which of course is impossible, but just for the sake of the question) that heaven and hell don't exist - would you live your lives any differently?

 

[IbnAbdulHakim]

eace:

I need to ask, Do you both consider the prophets to be characters of fiction? Im talking about jesus, moses, MUHAMMAD (saws)??

eace:

I shall answer yours and you answer mine please


Hmm.. Good question.... Wel ur saying theres no afterlife... so i gess i wud make most of this life... Astagfirullah

eace:

 

[Ghazi]

I shall answer yours and you answer mine please


Hmm.. Good question.... Wel ur saying theres no afterlife... so i gess i wud make most of this life... Astagfirullah

eace:

You feeling okey bro your quoting and talking to your self ;D

 

[IbnAbdulHakim]

You feeling okey bro your quoting and talking to your self ;D

:salamext:

LOL i quoted myself becoz i wanted the disbelievers to answer my question which is:

Do you both consider the prophets to be characters of fiction? Im talking about jesus, moses, MUHAMMAD (saws)??

 

[czgibson]

Greetings Abd'Majid,

I need to ask, Do you both consider the prophets to be characters of fiction? Im talking about jesus, moses, MUHAMMAD (saws)??

Do you mean me?

If so, I'd say that while I consider god to be a fictional character, I do believe that the people you mention did actually exist. The one I know most about is Jesus, who is mentioned in independent historical records. I believe he has been misrepresented by orthodox Christianity (e.g. he never mentioned the trinity, as Muslims are fond of pointing out). As for the other prophets, I see no reason to doubt their existence, except in the case of Adam, who is part of what I regard as a creation myth.

Peace

 

[IbnAbdulHakim]

Greetings Abd'Majid,


Do you mean me?

If so, I'd say that while I consider god to be a fictional character, I do believe that the people you mention did actually exist. The one I know most about is Jesus, who is mentioned in independent historical records. I believe he has been misrepresented by orthodox Christianity (e.g. he never mentioned the trinity, as Muslims are fond of pointing out). As for the other prophets, I see no reason to doubt their existence, except in the case of Adam, who is part of what I regard as a creation myth.

Peace

eace:

So how do u justify the same message which all these Prophets hav preached? To worship one God?

Moses/Abraham/Jesus/Muhammad/David - All preached to worship only one God....

Also why is it that when prophets such as Noah were never followed they never gave up? Well... that question only applies if you believe in the existence of Noah...

eace:

PS: Thanks for Answering, Appreciate it!

 

[czgibson]

Greetings,

If I was given proof that heaven and hell do not exist and proof that there will be no day of reckoning, I would tend towards being extremely hedonistic. After all I only live once, I would want the best possible life.

Given that that is your view, would it surprise you to meet an atheist who was not utterly venal, lustful, murderous and hedonistic? Is your belief in the afterlife the only thing that prevents you from committing all sorts of sins / crimes?

Peace

 

[IbnAbdulHakim]

Greetings,


Given that that is your view, would it surprise you to meet an atheist who was not utterly venal, lustful, murderous and hedonistic? Is your belief in the afterlife the only thing that prevents you from committing all sorts of sins / crimes?

Peace

eace:

im sure we would still hav moral values, but we would try to hav the best of this life... be the richest, have the best spouse etc... i dont kno... it doesnt feel right..


eace:

 

[iLL_LeaT]

a question for those who believe in heaven and hell:
if you were given proof (which of course is impossible, but just for the sake of the question) that heaven and hell don't exist - would you live your lives any differently?

i gess i wud make most of this life...

Interesting!

I think there could be a hell, and I think there could be no hell at all. Let me pretend that I was a Christian that just found out that there is no possible way there could be a hell (I saw it on CNN or something ). What would I do? Oh my god, I could go out and murder everyone, right? LOL – NO!!! I would have still been brought up with Christian morals. I would still have a since of right and wrong (A Christian point of view of right and wrong). I would probably live life the same way as before, just knowing that I was not going to hell.

Just because you don’t think there is any kind of punishment after life doesn’t make you a bad person. And if someone does do something immoral, there are still punishments in this life.

 

[snakelegs]

I shall answer yours and you answer mine please


Hmm.. Good question.... Wel ur saying theres no afterlife... so i gess i wud make most of this life... Astagfirullah

eace:

fair enough.
no, i am not saying there is no afterlife - i have no belief about afterlife one way or the other.
your 2nd question "Do you both consider the prophets to be characters of fiction? Im talking about jesus, moses, MUHAMMAD (saws)??"
i would have to answer the same way - i don't know so i don't consider them to be prophets or fiction either.
this is what makes an agnostic.
i have been asked many times in my life: if you don't belong to a religion, what keeps you from killing people?, etc etc
so this makes me wonder if people who believe in an afterlife only behave decently because they're afraid of eternal punishment.
what do you think?

 

[IbnAbdulHakim]

Interesting!
What would I do? Oh my god, I could go out and murder everyone, right? LOL – NO!!! .

eace:

LOL no ofcourse not, theres still something called the "electric chair"

i have been asked many times in my life: if you don't belong to a religion, what keeps you from killing people?, etc etc
so this makes me wonder if people who believe in an afterlife only behave decently because they're afraid of eternal punishment.
what do you think?

No, its sence of right and wrong which prevents everyone from doing bad deeds! For example, at work i do all the heavy lifting coz the ladies cant, even if they were to offer i wouldnt feel right letting them (sence!!).
BUT the difference is i think that this sence of right and wrong is spiritually influenced.... Well thats what i think .

For example how would you term someone very cruel to his parents? "Evil" right? Whats Evil? Someone who Sins a lot right? What are sins?

Sin - A transgression of a religious or moral law, especially when deliberate.

Doesnt it seem spiritually influenced

eace:

 

[- Qatada -]

Each person has their own opinions and ways. For instance, a person who only believes that there is only one life would probably choose to make the most out of it. Hence, if theres an opportunity to get hold of $1000 dollars thats within your grasp, you may feel that nobody is watching over you, so you grip it because you feel that theres not much consequences to it, plus you'd rather get it quick instead of having to work tirelessly for ages to earn that much.

One of the only reasons a person wouldn't get it may be because either the person has high morals at an extreme level, or the person may feel that they may get busted, or they may feel that God is watching them - this is why having taqwa (God consciessness) is the most best of qualities to have within islam. And God even mentions in the Qur'an that the ones that have the most taqwa are the best among mankind. (refer to Qur'an 49:13)


Islam isn't strange because most of the acts within it are so that there is no injustice within the earth, but some people prefer their own desires over others. They prefer themselves and are hasty to get what they can before that death approaches them. If the person doesn't believe in God or the hereafter, then they will try to hasten to do all that they can to gain that little enjoyment they can.

This is why we as muslims believe that this life is only temporary, because everyone believes death to be real - but there is a reason for death, and there is a purpose in life. We will gather wealth, but we don't keep wealth just to store it - but its to spend to help the ones that are needy i.e. family, yourself and even the poor. And every action we do, there is a reason for it, so the same way people are responsible for their actions in this world, the same way everyone will return to the Lord who created them, and they will be responsible for their actions again. The ones who used it for the sake of pleasing their Lord, they will be rewarded with a more fuller reward which is an eternal paradise, but the ones who rejected their Merciful Lord who created them will be punished due to their rejection of Him and His signs.


That's just an opinion anyway.


Allaah Almighty knows best.


Peace.

 

[Chuck]

a question for those who believe in heaven and hell:
if you were given proof (which of course is impossible, but just for the sake of the question) that heaven and hell don't exist - would you live your lives any differently?

Well, I think it won't be exactly the same. The question is rather vague, because non-existence of heaven or hell doesn't mean non-existence of God or afterlife. However, if I just take it as it is (only non-existence of heaven or hell) than I think it won't be exactly the same but not much different either. I would still worship Allah, follow his commandments, and try to be righteous... perhaps more frequently fall into small sins, perhaps not because even though I believe in heaven or hell I still fall into smaller sins quite easily, but I look forward for the mercy of Allah.

Allaah Almighty knows best

 

[iLL_LeaT]

Each person has their own opinions and ways. For instance, a person who only believes that there is only one life would probably choose to make the most out of it. Hence, if theres an opportunity to get hold of $1000 dollars thats within your grasp, you may feel that nobody is watching over you, so you grip it because you feel that theres not much consequences to it, plus you'd rather get it quick instead of having to work tirelessly for ages to earn that much.

No completely true.

I have a deep compaction for the wellbeing of others.

Now, if I saw $1000 sitting on a table, I would not take it because it would hurt the people that I was stealing it from, not because of fear of punishment here or anywhere.

However, I would take it if I needed it to survive. As would anyone (I think). But because I’m not THAT strapped for cash, I wouldn’t take it.

 

[IbnAbdulHakim]

No completely true.

I have a deep compaction for the wellbeing of others.

Now, if I saw $1000 sitting on a table, I would not take it because it would hurt the people that I was stealing it from, not because of fear of punishment here or anywhere.

However, I would take it if I needed it to survive. As would anyone (I think). But because I’m not THAT strapped for cash, I wouldn’t take it.

eace:

what makes u do good? What gives you that sence of right and wrong? Can you explain it?

eace: