Sikhism

[Mohsin]

4th time i've said this!

No if you are referring to my post then you are still yet to reply fully to what my posts have said. Show me which post after i made the post you replied.

this whole thread covers the topics/questions asked

I've been on teh forum longer than you have, trust me you haven't come close to giving me satisfying answers, only riddles, half-answers, and chnages of subject

It would appear i'm the only Sikh fool who keeps responding to your repetive questions

Also the one who keeps side stepping these questions, hence why they are so repeatetive

but that's because i thrive on questions as Sikhism is the religion of the Lord

I thought all religions are religion of the lord, and islam says only islam is the religion of the lord, so sikhism isn't (see what i mean about the sikh doctrine contradicting itself

Hence Sikhism is a religion created by God through the Sikh Gurus.

Don't you mean 10

Mohammed is a prophet and all we do is respect him (called tolerance) but what the kuran says is not to be taken as the scriptures of the Sikhs!

Why not, if he is a prophet, he wouldn't lie, and he said Qur'an is teh word of God, he also said it will never change, so it can't be corrupted

 

[Mohsin]

Well if the Granth is not from God how is the Kuran? (even though we respect it it may have been altered by muslims, just as you claim the Bible has been) :thankyou:

But even non-muslims acknowledge the Qur'an is unchanged, as the companions were so careful with making sure it didn't change. And unl;ike other scriptures, Qur'an is easy to meorise, its one of it's miracles, god made it easy to read and memorize, so since it was memorised by hundreds of people, even if someone changed it, people would have come and said "hold on, i memorised it and i know of it as different". also Islam spread to different parts of the world, and companions in different countries taught the Qur'an by memory, yet even if you go there today, the Qur'an is the same everywhere. So it can't be changed

 

[Mohsin]

I'm getting very annoyed and frustrated by you AvarAllahNoor. You simply are not replying to my posts, sorry as much as you might not like admitting it, i don't think you have any answer, i think you are now realising how the sikh doctrine is self-contradicting

Which of the follow facts do you disgaree with,

You believe him to be a prophet, therefore you must believe the following

Fact One. He is honest, and never lied before given revelation, all the people in Mecca called him the Truthful One. So its logical to assume that after given prophethood he would be even more careful not to lie, so everything he said is 100% truth

Fact Two He says the Qur'an is the word of God. We have already estabilished he would not lie (See Fact One)

Fact Three Allah says in the Qur'an Muhammed PBUH, unlike the rest of us, has no free will, and does everything by the will of Allah, and doesn't even speak without his permission, so everything he says must be from God. It is now estabilished everything he spoke in normal conversation was divine, as it wasn't said without the permission of Allah, i hope you agree so far AvarAllahNoor!

Fact Four Muhammed PBUH said he is the last of the prophets

Fact Five Allah SWT in the Qur'an says Muhammed is the seal of the prophets and no more Prophet/messenger will come

Fact Four and Five all prove Muhammed is the last Prophet PBUH. Of course these facts are all based on the assumption you believe Muhammed PBUh is a prophet. If you believe he is a Prophet, you should believe facts one to five, and acknowledge him as the last Prophet, if you don't beleive facts four or five, then surely you don't acknowlege him as a prophet

If you don't agree with facts four or five, and yet you still believe Muhammed PBUH to be a Prophet, then explain to me which of the 5 facts you disagree with

 

[Mohsin]

AvarAllahNoor, i need you to educate me on a couple things about the Qur'an. It seems you know things i don't, and even things scholars for over a thousands centuries don't know

This is what you wrote

Fact is the Kuran speaks of many messengers to have come before Mohammed and many more to come after. It's the Kuran that states this not me. If you don't believe what the Kuran says then you're not following Islam!

My reply is the following, and its been 6 days now, and you still haven't replied to it. You are fast turning into a farce, if you don't know, simply admitt you are wrong and acknowledge your religion contradicts itself, it's evident i'm afraid

Not once, this is an outrageous lie. Not once does it suggest another Prophet is to come after this. Proove it, and don't cop out of this one, i have been followng the whole thread and not once did you bring any apparent verses showing Allah said more Prophets are to come. I can't believe you have stooped to making such disgraceful lies. Bring me an ayyah that even suggests it, PLEASE!

 

[Fishman]

But even non-muslims acknowledge the Qur'an is unchanged, as the companions were so careful with making sure it didn't change. And unl;ike other scriptures, Qur'an is easy to meorise, its one of it's miracles, god made it easy to read and memorize, so since it was memorised by hundreds of people, even if someone changed it, people would have come and said "hold on, i memorised it and i know of it as different". also Islam spread to different parts of the world, and companions in different countries taught the Qur'an by memory, yet even if you go there today, the Qur'an is the same everywhere. So it can't be changed

The oldest complete Quran known is the Uthman Quran. Uthman, if I'm not mistaken, was one of the Prophet(pbuh)'s companions. The Uthman Quran is no different to the Quran of today, as far as I'm aware. Given the relatively short length of time between the Prophet(pbuh)'s death and the writing of this Quran, and the fact that the devout early followers of Islam were still around and would detest any changes, it is highly unlikely that the Quran was changed before Uthman got his.

 

[Mohsin]

The oldest complete Quran known is the Uthman Quran. Uthman, if I'm not mistaken, was one of the Prophet(pbuh)'s companions. The Uthman Quran is no different to the Quran of today, as far as I'm aware. Given the relatively short length of time between the Prophet(pbuh)'s death and the writing of this Quran, and the fact that the devout early followers of Islam were still around and would detest any changes, it is highly unlikely that the Quran was changed before Uthman got his.

Yep that Qur'an is still present today, in Turkey museums. It rpoves the lie and myth that the Qur'an is changed

Load-Islam has a good article on the historical authenticity of the Qur'an
The Holy Qur'an; Its Historical Authenticity

 

[Fishman]

Yep that Qur'an is still present today, in Turkey museums. It rpoves the lie and myth that the Qur'an is changed

Load-Islam has a good article on the historical authenticity of the Qur'an
The Holy Qur'an; Its Historical Authenticity

For some reason my dad banned me going on the Load-Islam site, just the forums.

 

[Mohsin]

For some reason my dad banned me going on the Load-Islam site, just the forums.

How can he do that? I didn't know that was possible

 

[Nσσя'υℓ Jαииαн]

Lol...my mom doesnt want me goin on it either...she says its not "safe." im sure u guys get what i mean >.<

 

[Curaezipirid]

I don't know about all the other dialogue about Sikhism versus Islam, because I find disputes to tiring to read unless immediately involving me; but I am informed that when the Indian population began generally to move away from Muslim practise, it was because of the shame of wrong expression that some persons experienced to such an extend that they worked harder only to hide the faults rather than to remedy, while within other Indian religious practise, there is an understanding of exposing one's shame and in that all persons expose their shame so as to let those carrying the most burden of shame not fear their own self so extremely. Now it seems to me that this has the obvious weakness of falling into not being rigorous enough in correcting faults. Therefore Sikhs seem to have found a solution of sorts, but in the long term, we must understand that movements of populations from any Religion into any other Religion, can only ultimately return into Islamic form, since Qur'an. Perhaps we can just let it be that Sikhs will gradually return to being more attentive to Qur'an, and take that the words of Sikh Gurus, when speaking in reference to the Will of God, may well in fact ever have been refering to Qur'an.

I must expose my more general interest in Sikhism at this time, being that many Australians are close to becoming able to convert to Islam, but are really very much wanting to make a conversion that is not able to be perceived as a political alignment with Arab countries, and in that many are more likely to want to cause that their Islam looks externally more akin to Sikhism. Now while there are obvious weaknesses in this unusual position, it is also that such is a vast improvement upon the current Australian Social condition.

With that information in the back of my mind and not at all under consideration, this evening I was half way through burning a CD of Qur'an recitation, only to find that by accident I began to make the copy in Singalese rather than Arabic!

 

[Fishman]

How can he do that? I didn't know that was possible

He just doesn't want me going there. Not that he can do anything about it if I do.

 

[Curaezipirid]

Well of course your father can stop you from going there only if you are a dutiful offspring, and in that the lesson is to honour his example he sets for you.

 

[AvarAllahNoor]

I'm getting very annoyed and frustrated by you AvarAllahNoor. You simply are not replying to my posts, sorry as much as you might not like admitting it, i don't think you have any answer, i think you are now realising how the sikh doctrine is self-contradicting

Which of the follow facts do you disgaree with,

I'm not refuting it, he's a prophet of Islam but as i've said to fishman, the kuran may have changed during the time it was presented! And providing links to other sites that claim it isn't, won't convince me! Just as my posts won't convince you that Guru Granth Ji is a revelation from God

 

[AvarAllahNoor]

The oldest complete Quran known is the Uthman Quran. Uthman, if I'm not mistaken, was one of the Prophet(pbuh)'s companions. The Uthman Quran is no different to the Quran of today, as far as I'm aware. Given the relatively short length of time between the Prophet(pbuh)'s death and the writing of this Quran, and the fact that the devout early followers of Islam were still around and would detest any changes, it is highly unlikely that the Quran was changed before Uthman got his.

But of course you'd say this, your a muslim. Would a christian say the bible is false? No

 

[jss]

Lol it is funny cos what you are writing is making me laugh, as i know no educated muslim would ever say such a thing. When the Qur'an was revealed to muhammed PBUH it would be memorised by everyone. This may sound hard to you but it isn't, today pakistani and indian kids as young as 9 know the WHOLE qur'an off by heart, so think of the companions who know and understand the language, they can easily learn it off by heart. In addition to that it was written down on parchments under the prophet PBUH's supervision. After he died a lot of huffaz (people who have memorized Qur'an) died, so the leader of the believers Abu bakr decided to have it compiled into one book, as it is now. It was copied from the parchmnets that were around during the prophets time. NOTE it was done under supervision of companions who had memorized the Qur'an fully. 2 were used for more accuracy and reliability, as if both of them happened to agree, it must be the original. then later when it spread to different arab countries of different dialects then the 3rd leader Uthman, decided to have one standardised text with vowels in place so that even people of different regions would still recite Qur'an as it was by the prophet. read this for more info rather than readin what liars on anti-islamic sites say http://www.load-islam.com/artical_det.php?artical_id=762&section=indepth&subsection=Glorious Quran



You said for me it isn't, which part isn't, the part that he's a truthful messenger, or just that the Qur'an is the word of god. By the way did you read the link i gave you?



LOL thats the same thing bro, its still preaching a new message saying this is the true way to god, ie the others aren't the true way, ie the others are wrong. Tell me, when people left islam or hinduism and became sikhs, did nanak stop them, or was he happy that they had become sikh and left their former religion of rituals??



we'll see how many of my questions at tyhe bottom of this post you wioll answer. And btw I have twice asked AvarAllahNoor to reply to two of my posts, and yet he has refused to do so. You could easily have replied aswell but you declined to do so



Listen, how is that logically possible. If you are saying is islam is a valid faith, then Islam says Muhammed PBUH is the last Prophet. Either this is true and a fact or it isn't. If you are saying Christianity is a valid faith, then Jesus is the son of God. Either that sentence is true or it isn't, either he is the son of God or he isn't.

Look at what Allah says in the Qur'an says about whether he is the son of god;

And they say: the Beneficent hath taken unto Himself a Son. Assuredly ye utter a disastrous thing, whereby almost the heavens are torn, and the earth is split asunder and the mountains fall to ruins, that ye ascribe to the Beneficent a son, when it is not meet for (the Majesty of) the Beneficent that He should chose a son. There is none in the heavens and the earth but cometh unto the Beneficent as a slave.
(Qur’an 19:88-93)​

How can both be valid. now please answer this question, lets see if you do

lol now your making me laugh. By the way thanks for providing me with A version of Islamic history. I didn't read the links cus your words are descriptive enough for me.
Also if you word it like that then Islam cannot be an entirely valid faith. Read the saloks of Bhagat Kabir who wrote how a Muslim, Hindu should live and the saloks of Sheikh Farid ji. If you maybe are open minded then it will give you an insight on how Muslims should live which is also written by other Muslims.
Also again (repeating) you have been given enough info about Sikhi to answer your questions and members such as ISDhillon also gave many informative links for anyone to follow up on. Yet you cry over the same issues like a broken record and claim that your 'questions' haven't been answered. Is the truth hard to accept?
Have fun reading up:thankyou:

bhul chuk maaf

 

[AvarAllahNoor]

lol now your making me laugh. By the way thanks for providing me with A version of Islamic history. I didn't read the links cus your words are descriptive enough for me.
Also if you word it like that then Islam cannot be an entirely valid faith. Read the saloks of Bhagat Kabir who wrote how a Muslim, Hindu should live and the saloks of Sheikh Farid ji. If you maybe are open minded then it will give you an insight on how Muslims should live which is also written by other Muslims.
Also again (repeating) you have been given enough info about Sikhi to answer your questions and members such as ISDhillon also gave many informative links for anyone to follow up on. Yet you cry over the same issues like a broken record and claim that your 'questions' haven't been answered. Is the truth hard to accept?
Have fun reading up:thankyou:

bhul chuk maaf

Khalsa Ji they have trouble digesting the truth! - Like we've said, all they need to know is here in the thread.

Gur Fateh!

 

[bint_muhammed]

Khalsa Ji they have trouble digesting the truth! -Gur Fateh!

lol! :giggling: :giggling: honestly some people!

 

[Mohsin]

JSS;

I have been on this thread from the beginning, and i promise you you haven't answered my questions. I been pushing AllahAvarNoor to reply to two posts, and he hasn't yet. All he has said is the Qur'an may have become corrupted. I have given him a logical post, proving with logic, how it couldn't have changed. Even non-muslim historians who studied the preservation of nthe Qur'an admit it is unchanged.
The fact is, the Qur'an is very rhythmic, and so was easy to remember. Today in mosques kids as young as 6 and 7 know the whole Qur'an off by heart!!!. Companions memorised what was revealed to the Prophet PBUH. So logically, since so many people knew it off by heart at the time, it was impossible to change, since surely one of these hundreds of people atleast would have been a devout follower, and if he was to notice and chnage made in the Qur'an he would have spoken out and no doubt there would have been a big fuss and riots and wars etc but yet this never happened ever!

So logically, using your brains that god has given you, is it logical that it was changed by one of the greatest companions of the prophet Uthman, who was known to stay up all night without sleeping just praying to Allah, and that too, when so many companions of the prophet were around.

I know it sounds like an easy explanation, that the Qur'an has been changed, as it would not contradict Sikh doctrine, however you have to live up to the fact it is unchanged, logic says this, and even non-muslims have admitted to this, and the fact is there is still a copy from that time around in a museum in Turkey. So please, instead of maligning the authenticity of the Qur'an, just have the guts to admit it is ucnahnged, and Muhammed did say he was the last prophet, and thus Sikhism contradicts itself

 

[Mohsin]

Here is what Sir William Muir said. Now note, this person has been one of the harshest critics of islam ever. He has maligned prophet Muhammed PBUH on so many occasions, but read what he says about the Qur'an

The recension of 'Uthman has been handed down to us unaltered. So carefully, indeed, has it been preserved, that there are no variations of importance, - we might almost say no variations at all, - amongst the innumerable copies of the Koran scattered throughout the vast bounds of empire of Islam. Contending and embittered factions, taking their rise in the murder of 'Uthman himself within a quarter of a century from the death of Muhammad have ever since rent the Muslim world. Yet but ONE KORAN has always been current amongst them.... There is probably in the world no other work which has remained twelve centuries with so pure a text

And guess who wrote it? The famous Christian missionary from University of Oxford, Sir Willium Muir in the book The Life Of Mohammad

Now please isntead of accusing the Qur'an of being changed, just acknowledge God in the Qur'an did say Muhammed PBUH is the last messenger, and just admit Sikh doctrine contradicts itself. Be men!

 

[AvarAllahNoor]

Here is what Sir William Muir said. Now note, this person has been one of the harshest critics of islam ever. He has maligned prophet Muhammed PBUH on so many occasions, but read what he says about the Qur'an

The recension of 'Uthman has been handed down to us unaltered. So carefully, indeed, has it been preserved, that there are no variations of importance, - we might almost say no variations at all, - amongst the innumerable copies of the Koran scattered throughout the vast bounds of empire of Islam. Contending and embittered factions, taking their rise in the murder of 'Uthman himself within a quarter of a century from the death of Muhammad have ever since rent the Muslim world. Yet but ONE KORAN has always been current amongst them.... There is probably in the world no other work which has remained twelve centuries with so pure a text

And guess who wrote it? The famous Christian missionary from University of Oxford, Sir Willium Muir in the book The Life Of Mohammad

Now please isntead of accusing the Qur'an of being changed, just acknowledge God in the Qur'an did say Muhammed PBUH is the last messenger, and just admit Sikh doctrine contradicts itself. Be men!

What is this 'contradiction' you keep ranting on about in Sikhism??