Question for Christians...

[جوري]

you mean to tell me that Christians DON'T believe in Jesus as the son of God and is part divine?? that is news to me... thanks for clarfying that....

 

[searchingsoul]

you mean to tell me that Christians DON'T believe in Jesus as the son of God and is part divine?? that is news to me... thanks for clarfying that....

They do believe that he is the son of God. This enters the subject of trinity, which should be understood from a Christian perspective (since it's a Christian belief).

I understand that muslims don't have to accept the trinity for themselves. But if they wish to understand christianity, they need to understand the trinity from a christian perspective. Don't muslims want Islam to be understood from a muslim perspective?

 

[جوري]

Frankly ... personally I couldn't care less what people believe or don't of Islam or any theological topic....it is inconsequential....... It doesn't affect my life in any way ... there will always be people who will dislike you for your origin, your religion, your gender or whatever.... it is good to exercise some emotional intelligence unless you are a politician and this is your livelihood? in which case it would be prudent to develop some thick skin and firmly believe in what you are taking about ... if it is outside your sphere of knowledge then I think the noble thing to do is to admit so and not engage in a sensitive topic ... other than that I am not sure what is so enigmatic and can only be understood by a "Christian" perspective as Jesus being the "Son of God" doesn't appear as deep the as the mysteries of the hippocampus...... when we ask for clarification on why Christians think he is indeed the son of God we are looking for biblical sources not the "faith" matter... it isn't a good substitute ... if it can't be argued from the good book then at this moment we are all interpreting from our own subjective view or the subjective views of our elders who were none the wiser? What would be the point in that?

 

[searchingsoul]

Frankly ... personally I couldn't care less what people believe or don't of Islam or any theological topic....it is inconsequential....... It doesn't affect my life in any way ... there will always be people who will dislike you for your origin, your religion, your gender or whatever.... it is good to exercise some emotional intelligence unless you are a politician and this is your livelihood? in which case it would be prudent to develop some thick skin and firmly believe in what you are taking about ... if it is outside your sphere of knowledge then I think the noble thing to do is to admit so and not engage in a sensitive topic ... other than that I am not sure what is so enigmatic and can only be understood by a "Christian" perspective as Jesus being the "Son of God" doesn't appear as deep the as the mysteries of the hippocampus...... when we ask for clarification on why Christians think he is indeed the son of God we are looking for biblical sources not the "faith" matter... it isn't a good substitute ... if it can't be argued from the good book then at this moment we are all interpreting from our own subjective view or the subjective views of our elders who were none the wiser? What would be the point in that?

I completely disagree. Failure to understand other religions comes with consequences, which could include war, discrimination, etc. I find this to be of significant importance, especially since we have global economies.

There will always be people who dislike us out of ignorance, and unwilliingness to understand people different than themselves. A world with less hate and more tolerance would be a much better place, according to many.

Are you saying that the lack of understanding people have about Islam doesn't personally affect you? If this is the case, I'm very glad for you. I hear many Muslims cite examples of discrimination due to lack of Islamic understanding. Even if you are not affected, don't you want other Muslims to face less discrimination?

 

[جوري]

I completely disagree. Failure to understand other religions comes with consequences, which could include war, discrimination, etc. I find this to be of significant importance, especially since we have global economies.

There will always be people who dislike us out of ignorance, and unwilliingness to understand people different than themselves. A world with less hate and more tolerance would be a much better place, according to many.

Are you saying that the lack of understanding people have about Islam doesn't personally affect you? If this is the case, I'm very glad for you. I hear many Muslims cite examples of discrimination due to lack of Islamic understanding. Even if you are not affected, don't you want other Muslims to face less discrimination?

I don't see how I fail to understand other religions? please point out to me where I have...I don't disagree that we should have open dialogue, hence we are here typing this... if it can't be done in a civilized manner citing legitimate sources then there is no point... there is no point in saying I read the Quran and it is wrong unless you wish to discuss it point by point, and call upon scholars and people of understanding to help with your dialogue... I don't enjoy wrangling and the "God is bigger than Allah bit" as I see repeatedly websites popping faster than you can microwave popcorn.... yes! it is a waste of my time... people need political and hate sites... it is a choice which I can't hope to combat in my one woman crusade... my closest and best of friend is Christian... I try to abridge the Gap... I accept that there are things that I simply can't change... the belief in Jesus as the son of God is one of them... I don't see why I should really? it hasn't affected my relationships otherwise... although with my friend I am always interested in probing to open the door, an invitation to Islam... because I do care not because I wish to ridicule Christian beliefs.
Do I want other Muslims to face less discrimination? you bet! I'd like to stop hunger and end disease, illegal occupations, homelessness, insensible death from violent gang and street crimes... but I can't... It is wonderful to write your thoughts down and share but one would be deluding oneself if one thought it is going to cause a dramatic change in the world... It is more of a psychological fulfillment in the least... a way to sincere learning at most... but of the most we can't always hope for though we try....
peace and glad to see you back on board.......

 

[searchingsoul]

I don't see how I fail to understand other religions? please point out to me where I have
QUOTE]
Your failure to acknowledge that fact that Christians state that they do not worship Jesus and Mary appears to be failure to understand other religions.

Do you want non-muslims to understand Islam from the Islamic viewpoint or the non-muslim viewpoint?

Do I want other Muslims to face less discrimination? you bet! I'd like to stop hunger and end disease, illegal occupations, homelessness, insensible death from violent gang and street crimes... but I can't... It is wonderful to write your thoughts down and share but one would be deluding oneself if one thought it is going to cause a dramatic change in the world... It is more of a psychological fulfillment in the least... a way to sincere learning at most... but of the most we can't always hope for though we try....

I don't think that anyone is capable of "changing the world" by themself. I do think that many of today's problems can be gradually changed by education and a concentrated effort to learn about other people. I don't see how such education would be classified as "psychological fulfillment". I see it as being a means to become less egocentric, not the opposite.

 

[جوري]

hmmmmmmmn... I know lots of catholics who have told me they worship jesus their lord... so it is your word against theirs... I do acknowledge that there are different sects in christianity as there are in Islam... I don't think you are qualifed by virtue of being christian to speak for all christians???.... Again do I want Christians to understand Islam from an Islamic perspective... absolutely... but if they don't or won't it doesn't matter... should it?by the way the red color doesn't stand out more for me... it makes my eyes water... sort of like yelling at someone who doesn't speak English...

 

[Skillganon]

I don't see how I fail to understand other religions? please point out to me where I have
QUOTE]
Your failure to acknowledge that fact that Christians state that they do not worship Jesus and Mary appears to be failure to understand other religions.

Do you want non-muslims to understand Islam from the Islamic viewpoint or the non-muslim viewpoint?

Why not try to understand christianity from what the bible say.

Why not understand Islam from what their scripture say.

Otherwise someone might tell you something that may be contrary to what the scripture say.

I read the bible to understand it. Ponder on it, and seek christian opinion on it, and see if it is true according to the whole scriptures, if I find something contrary to what they say than it is matter for them to wonder.

 

[therebbe]

I read the bible to understand it. Ponder on it, and seek christian opinion on it

There are many different opinions and commentaries on single verses. What you should seek out is the view point of the religion on that verse, not just th verse itself.

 

[searchingsoul]

hmmmmmmmn... I know lots of catholics who have told me they worship jesus their lord... so it is your word against theirs... I do acknowledge that there are different sects in christianity as there are in Islam... I don't think you are qualifed by virtue of being christian to speak for all christians???.... Again do I want Christians to understand Islam from an Islamic perspective... absolutely... but if they don't or won't it doesn't matter... should it?by the way the red color doesn't stand out more for me... it makes my eyes water... sort of like yelling at someone who doesn't speak English...

Don't take the red personally PurestAmbrosia. I simply used it to separate your quote from my response, when I failed to capture the quote correctly.

I don't claim to represent all Christians. Yes, I believe you when you say that some Catholics may state that they worship Jesus, but this is through the concept of the trinity. I'm not asking you to accept the trinity, just to acknowledge that it exists in Christianity (if you wish to be afforded the same mutual respect from Christians).

This is the quote presented by Dougmusr:

[MOUSE]And behold! Allah will say: "O Jesus the son of Mary! Didst thou say unto men, worship me and my mother as gods in derogation of Allah'?" He will say: "Glory to Thee! never could I say what I had no right (to say). Had I said such a thing, thou wouldst indeed have known it. Thou knowest what is in my heart, Thou I know not what is in Thine. For Thou knowest in full all that is hidden. [/MOUSE]
Clearly, it is suggesting that Christians worship Jesus AND Mary. We can leave the Jesus worshipping alone. Let's concentrate on the fact that it suggests that Mary is worshipped. I doubt that you will find a Christian that will agree that Mary is worshiped. In this case, I think it is fair to say that Christians unanimously will disagree on how they are being portrayed in the Quran. What do you think?

 

[جوري]

[MOUSE]And behold! Allah will say: "O Jesus the son of Mary! Didst thou say unto men, worship me and my mother as gods in derogation of Allah'?" He will say: "Glory to Thee! never could I say what I had no right (to say). Had I said such a thing, thou wouldst indeed have known it. Thou knowest what is in my heart, Thou I know not what is in Thine. For Thou knowest in full all that is hidden. [/MOUSE]
Clearly, it is suggesting that Christians worship Jesus AND Mary. We can leave the Jesus worshipping alone. Let's concentrate on the fact that it suggests that Mary is worshipped. I doubt that you will find a Christian that will agree that Mary is worshiped. In this case, I think it is fair to say that Christians unanimously will disagree on how they are being portrayed in the Quran. What do you think?

let's take my leb friend Cl****, who is a lebanese Maronite.... when C's mother died he started praying through her... that constitutes associating partners unto God... you may say that he isn't worshipping her per se but to pray to someone which was the term he used, can only be interpreted this way, that is what God says in His own words... if you don't pray to him directly you are associating partners unto him... you can do it through Jesus, Mary or my friend's mother whose name was Dorya.... we are told it is is clearly "shirk" associating partners unto God. Taking refuge in someone other than God.... wishing someone else would intercede other than God directly... elevating someone to God like status.....Do I hate any of my friends? absolutely not... I might feel that it is the wrong way to pray... it isn't in concert with my beliefs, I feel sad and think they have strayed from the teachings of Jesus... but that doesn't mean that I don't believe that trinity or sainthood doesn't "exist" my friends exist and so do their beliefs... I can only invite them to Islam if they show interest... I don't impose my beliefs on them but I strongly oppose that as a way to pray, I strongly oppose praying through Mary mother of God or Jesus our lord.... because neither is true to me... I understand it is true to some 2 billion Christians give or take but it isn't the truth to some 1.5 billion Muslims.... Anymore than the Muslims who go in the wrong direction around the Kaaba and think they are making pilgrimage... you might think what is the harm in that? My answer would be I honestly don't know... it isn't the way we are told to make pilgrimage, we are to follow the path that God assigned not the one of People's whims because they felt they can interpret something differently... I don't believe that Jesus nor Mary Peace be Upon them said... please pray through me, I'll intercede for you.... "O Lord Jesus Christ, Who showest forth Thy omnipotence most manifestly when Thou sparest and give compassion" that to me isn't prayer to God but to Jesus and this right here should really seal the deal with what some think of Mary "Hail Mary Most Holy, Beloved Daughter of God the Father" "Hail Mary Most Holy, Most Faithful Spouse of the Holy Ghost" "Hail Mary Most Holy, Temple and Sacrarium of the Most Holy Trinity. " Daughter of God the Father,
Hail Mary! Mother of God the Son,
Hail Mary! Spouse of God the Holy Ghost,
Hail Mary! Temple of the Most Blessed Trinity,
Hail Mary! Celestial Rose of the ineffable love of God
she is a daughter of God and a mother of God and a wife to the holy ghost? what does that make her?now come again and tell me how the Quran is wrong when the above quotes are a clear indication of otherwise?
thank you

 

[searchingsoul]

[/B][/COLOR]now come again and tell me how the Quran is wrong when the above quotes are a clear indication of otherwise?
thank you

The specific Quranic verse mentioned will be considered inaccurate by Christians, since they do not feel that associated partners with God is actually praying to God.

But I do believe I'm starting to understand why Muslims feel that Christians do worship Jesus and Mary. Thanks for your explanation.

I believe you stated that you personally don't care how non-muslims view Islam, so this will be directed toward those on this forum who do care.

1. Do you understand why it would be difficult for Christians to find the Quran valid, since they do not view themselves as worshipping Jesus and/or Mary? They will feel that Christianity isn't portrayed correctly within the Quran, so it must be an invalid book?

 

[dougmusr]

when we ask for clarification on why Christians think he is indeed the son of God we are looking for biblical sources not the "faith" matter... it isn't a good substitute ... if it can't be argued from the good book then at this moment we are all interpreting from our own subjective view or the subjective views of our elders who were none the wiser? What would be the point in that?

Isaiah 9:6 For unto us a Child is born, Unto us a Son is given; And the government will be upon His shoulder. And His name will be called Wonderful, Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace. 7 Of the increase of His government and peace There will be no end, Upon the throne of David and over His kingdom, To order it and establish it with judgment and justice
From that time forward, even forever. The zeal of the LORD of hosts will perform this.

The above verses are from the Bible, which I assume you are referring to as the good book. This verse explicitly indicates that a son will be born. This son is so unique that He will be called "Mighty God, Eternal Father", and He will assume the throne of David. There are several possibilities. You can deny the verse exists in the original manuscripts, you can say the people calling this son "Eternal Father, Mighty God" are blaspheming and this is a reference to the antichrist, or you can accept it.

 

[Skillganon]

There are many different opinions and commentaries on single verses. What you should seek out is the view point of the religion on that verse, not just th verse itself.

Sometime it is better to concentrate on the whole paragraph or chapter than just the single verse, as it sometime clarifies what it mean's.

THe reason to seek out their opinion of the religion, is out of respect and to see what they say hold any truth. Does it make sense, and or by taking other verses or statement into account does it make sense.

Sometime people do lot of acrobatic to make sense out of certain verse to themselve so it does not oppose their dogmatic belief when something is found contrary to what they been told.

 

[جوري]

Isaiah 9:6 For unto us a Child is born, Unto us a Son is given; And the government will be upon His shoulder. And His name will be called Wonderful, Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace. 7 Of the increase of His government and peace There will be no end, Upon the throne of David and over His kingdom, To order it and establish it with judgment and justice
From that time forward, even forever. The zeal of the LORD of hosts will perform this.

The above verses are from the Bible, which I assume you are referring to as the good book. This verse explicitly indicates that a son will be born. This son is so unique that He will be called "Mighty God, Eternal Father", and He will assume the throne of David. There are several possibilities. You can deny the verse exists in the original manuscripts, you can say the people calling this son "Eternal Father, Mighty God" are blaspheming and this is a reference to the antichrist, or you can accept it.

yes that is what I was referring to as the good book from which these passages also come
In Psalm 2:7, the Lord said to David:

"...Thou art my son: this day have I begotten thee."

Does this mean that God had two sons? Jesus also said that God is not only his Father but also your Father (Matthew 5:45, 48). Luke 3:38 says:

"...Seth, which was the son of Adam, which was the Son of God."

Who is mentioned in Hebrews 7:3 as like unto the Son of God? It is Melchisedec, King of Salem, as mentioned in Hebrews 7:1. He (Melchisedec) is more unique than Jesus or Adam. Why is he not preferred to be the Son of God? Moreover, Adam did not have a mother or father, but was the first human being created by God and in the likeness of God to exist in the Garden of Eden and on earth. Wouldn’t this give more rights to Adam to be called the Son of God in its truest meaning?

 

[searchingsoul]

I've been told repeatedly that in order to understand Islam, I have to study the opinions of Islamic scholars. I accept this suggestion. I think the same is true with Christianity (or any other religion). In order for us to understand a religion, we need to examine the opinions of the religious scholars for that religion.

This of course doesn't mean that we don't have free will to interepret as wish. Of course I know that to be true for Protestant Christians, but not other faiths.

 

[Skillganon]

Tru, that's why it is also prudent to ask where does it say that in your scripture. Also check if their opinion conflict with what the rest of the scripture say. This take time and study.

 

[dougmusr]

Moreover, Adam did not have a mother or father, but was the first human being created by God and in the likeness of God to exist in the Garden of Eden and on earth. Wouldn’t this give more rights to Adam to be called the Son of God in its truest meaning?

Actually, since you are asking my thoughts, Christ according to the Quran and the Bible had an earthly mother. What does the Quran say about His genetic roots? Was He part Mary?

 

[Skillganon]

Actually, since you are asking my thoughts, Christ according to the Quran and the Bible had an earthly mother. What does the Quran say about His genetic roots? Was He part Mary?

LOL.

Try Human. "Son of Man" (Mannkind) Human being.

 

[جوري]

Actually, since you are asking my thoughts, Christ according to the Quran and the Bible had an earthly mother. What does the Quran say about His genetic roots? Was He part Mary?

Are you a part of your mother? ... I am not sure what you are asking otherwise? about morulas gastrulas and zygotes? your mother gave a single cell, as did your dad... and the rest was up to God!