Question for Christians...

[dougmusr]

Christ claimed to be God's Son and Lord here.

Mt 22:41 While the Pharisees were gathered together, Jesus asked them,
42 saying, "What do you think about the Christ? Whose Son is He?" They said to Him, "The Son of David." 43 He said to them, "How then does David in the Spirit call Him 'Lord,' saying: 44 'The LORD said to my Lord, "Sit at My right hand, Till I make Your enemies Your footstool" '? 45 "If David then calls Him 'Lord,' how is He his Son?" 46 And no one was able to answer Him a word, nor from that day on did anyone dare question Him anymore.

He made it clear in this parable that God sent prophets with the message, and finally His Son.

Mt 21:33 "Hear another parable: There was a certain landowner who planted a vineyard and set a hedge around it, dug a winepress in it and built a tower. And he leased it to vinedressers and went into a far country. 34 "Now when vintage-time drew near, he sent his servants to the vinedressers, that they might receive its fruit. 35 "And the vinedressers took his servants, beat one, killed one, and stoned another. 36 "Again he sent other servants, more than the first, and they did likewise to them. 37 "Then last of all he sent his son to them, saying, 'They will respect my son.' 38 "But when the vinedressers saw the son, they said among themselves, 'This is the heir. Come, let us kill him and seize his inheritance.' 39 "So they took him and cast him out of the vineyard and killed him.

Hebrews 1:1 God, who at various times and in various ways spoke in time past to the fathers by the prophets, 2 has in these last days spoken to us by His Son, whom He has appointed heir of all things, through whom also He made the worlds; 3 who being the brightness of His glory and the express image of His person, and upholding all things by the word of His power, when He had by Himself purged our sins, sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high,
4 having become so much better than the angels, as He has by inheritance obtained a more excellent name than they.

 

[dougmusr]

Are you a part of your mother? ... I am not sure what you are asking otherwise? about morulas gastrulas and zygotes? your mother gave a single cell, as did your dad... and the rest was up to God!

So who did Christs male genetics come from?

 

[جوري]

So who did Christs male genetics come from?

surely you have heard of Asexual reproduction? as an option.... but we are told in order for something to happen all God has to say is be and it shall be!... anything else would really be bordering upon sacrilegious so I'd choose the question wisely!

 

[ACC]

That answer is not satisfactory but w/e floats your boat.

Why would God want to be man to begin with?
What did he have to be "born?"
Why was he "crucified?" Couldnt he destroy the Romans if he wished?

Why would any sane man believe a human is the son of God? if I said I was the son of God, would you beieve me. It's true that he made miracles, but so did Moses and Jacob.

I respect your faith, but sometimes it disturbs me when Christians cannot explain the ogic behind their beliefs.

Peace.

Part of the problem is that it isnt logical to you because you choose not to accept it as truth. Islam is not the truth to me, so our logic will be different.

 

[dougmusr]

surely you have heard of Asexual reproduction? as an option.... but we are told in order for something to happen all God has to say is be and it shall be!... anything else would really be bordering upon sacrilegious so I'd choose the question wisely!

So if Christ had an earthly mother, was miraculously conceived, was called the Messiah, was strengthened by the Holy Spirit, was taken up by God, and is going to return to judge mankind according to the Quran, how can it claim that it makes no distinction between the prophets?

 

[جوري]

So if Christ had an earthly mother, was miraculously conceived, was called the Messiah, was strengthened by the Holy Spirit, was taken up by God, and is going to return to judge mankind according to the Quran, how can it claim that it makes no distinction between the prophets?

I am not sure I understand the question? this is falling along the lines of the other thread when the poster wanted to know what anointed meant... when offered an explanation he didn't like it... there had to be something deep and mystical.... What distinction are you looking for exactly? that is what it states in the Quran [Yusufali 2:285] The Messenger believeth in what hath been revealed to him from his Lord, as do the men of faith. Each one (of them) believeth in Allah, His angels, His books, and His messengers. "We make no distinction (they say) between one and another of His messengers." And they say: "We hear, and we obey: (We seek) Thy forgiveness, our Lord, and to Thee is the end of all journeys."
God favors no one except by degree of piety........ many of his messangers preformed miracles... why would we come and make a distinction?

 

[searchingsoul]

If Christ is believed to have no earthly father, is he considered to be fully human?

 

[جوري]

If Christ is believed to have no earthly father, is he considered to be fully human?

Yes Human, but a human who is chosen to deliver God's message....

 

[dougmusr]

I am not sure I understand the question? this is falling along the lines of the other thread when the poster wanted to know what anointed meant... when offered an explanation he didn't like it... there had to be something deep and mystical.... What distinction are you looking for exactly? that is what it states in the Quran [Yusufali 2:285] The Messenger believeth in what hath been revealed to him from his Lord, as do the men of faith. Each one (of them) believeth in Allah, His angels, His books, and His messengers. "We make no distinction (they say) between one and another of His messengers." And they say: "We hear, and we obey: (We seek) Thy forgiveness, our Lord, and to Thee is the end of all journeys."
God favors no one except by degree of piety........ many of his messangers preformed miracles... why would we come and make a distinction?

The other thread was closed before I could respond, as I was the one asking the question about the meaning of the Messiah. The way I see it, if the Quran indicates Christ was unique among prophets in all of these ways, then it has made a very clear distinction between them.

 

[Woodrow]

you mean to tell me that Christians DON'T believe in Jesus as the son of God and is part divine?? that is news to me... thanks for clarfying that....

Believe it or not there are a number of non-trinitarian Christian denominations.
who do not believe I'sa(a.s.) was the son of God (swt) The best known ones are:

Jehovah Witnesses

Mormans

Adventist (largest group being seventh day adventists)

Unitarian (not all Unitarian denominations)

Surprisingly most of them are further from Islam then the Trinitarian Christians are.

 

[جوري]

The other thread was closed before I could respond, as I was the one asking the question about the meaning of the Messiah. The way I see it, if the Quran indicates Christ was unique among prophets in all of these ways, then it has made a very clear distinction between them.

I don't understand this quote of yours "then it has made a very clear distinction between them"... when I have just quoted you a verse from the Quran stating there is no difference or distinction between them......?
Jesus had unique qualities it is true... some are not even known to you or maybe they are but not of christian scriptures unless you can point me to otherwise... but clearly Prophet Jesus (PBUH) spoke at birth... it was one of his miracles....فَأَتَتْ بِهِ قَوْمَهَا تَحْمِلُهُ قَالُوا يَا مَرْيَمُ لَقَدْ جِئْتِ شَيْئًا فَرِيًّا {27}
[Pickthal 19:27] Then she brought him to her own folk, carrying him. They said: O Mary! Thou hast come with an amazing thing.

يَا أُخْتَ هَارُونَ مَا كَانَ أَبُوكِ امْرَأَ سَوْءٍ وَمَا كَانَتْ أُمُّكِ بَغِيًّا {28}
[Pickthal 19:28] O sister of Aaron! Thy father was not a wicked man nor was thy mother a harlot.

فَأَشَارَتْ إِلَيْهِ قَالُوا كَيْفَ نُكَلِّمُ مَن كَانَ فِي الْمَهْدِ صَبِيًّا {29}
[Pickthal 19:29] Then she pointed to him. They said: How can we talk to one who is in the cradle, a young boy?

قَالَ إِنِّي عَبْدُ اللَّهِ آتَانِيَ الْكِتَابَ وَجَعَلَنِي نَبِيًّا {30}
[Pickthal 19:30] He spake: Lo! I am the slave of Allah. He hath given me the Scripture and hath appointed me a Prophet,

وَجَعَلَنِي مُبَارَكًا أَيْنَ مَا كُنتُ وَأَوْصَانِي بِالصَّلَاةِ وَالزَّكَاةِ مَا دُمْتُ حَيًّا {31}
[Pickthal 19:31] And hath made me blessed wheresoever I may be, and hath enjoined upon me prayer and almsgiving so long as I remain alive,

وَبَرًّا بِوَالِدَتِي وَلَمْ يَجْعَلْنِي جَبَّارًا شَقِيًّا {32}
[Pickthal 19:32] And (hath made me) dutiful toward her who bore me, and hath not made me arrogant, unblest.

وَالسَّلَامُ عَلَيَّ يَوْمَ وُلِدتُّ وَيَوْمَ أَمُوتُ وَيَوْمَ أُبْعَثُ حَيًّا {33}
[Pickthal 19:33] Peace on me the day I was born, and the day I die, and the day I shall be raised alive!

ذَلِكَ عِيسَى ابْنُ مَرْيَمَ قَوْلَ الْحَقِّ الَّذِي فِيهِ يَمْتَرُونَ {34}
[Pickthal 19:34] Such was Jesus, son of Mary: (this is) a statement of the truth concerning which they doubt.

مَا كَانَ لِلَّهِ أَن يَتَّخِذَ مِن وَلَدٍ سُبْحَانَهُ إِذَا قَضَى أَمْرًا فَإِنَّمَا يَقُولُ لَهُ كُن فَيَكُونُ {35}
[Pickthal 19:35] It befitteth not (the Majesty of) Allah that He should take unto Himself a son. Glory be to Him! When He decreeth a thing, He saith unto it only: Be! and it is.

وَإِنَّ اللَّهَ رَبِّي وَرَبُّكُمْ فَاعْبُدُوهُ هَذَا صِرَاطٌ مُّسْتَقِيمٌ {36}
[Pickthal 19:36] And lo! Allah is my Lord and your Lord. So serve Him. That is the right path.........
clearly if God wanted to hide something about Jesus being special he wouldn't have given us a whole chapter about his life.... There are chapters of others... like Jonas, Hud, Joseph,Abraham, Mary, Luqman just to name a few... other than that I am not sure I understand your question:?

 

[Woodrow]

The other thread was closed before I could respond, as I was the one asking the question about the meaning of the Messiah. The way I see it, if the Quran indicates Christ was unique among prophets in all of these ways, then it has made a very clear distinction between them.

Each Prophet(Peace be upon all of them) was unique in his own way. Each had special gifts, that the average person does not have. There is no distinction about the equality of them. Each was a man and each was a messenger from God(swt). Muhammad (PBUH) is only different in the sense that he is the last and no others will come after him. His message is dentical to the message given to all the others. But, his message is the only true copy of what was sent before him.

 

[dougmusr]

I would consider these cults, not Christians. To know more about each, research the founder of the sect, particularly Mormons and Jehovah's Witnesses. Here's some information on Unitarian and Jehova's Witnesses taken from their web sites.

Jehova's Witnesses beliefs from watchtower.org.

Bible is God's Word and is truth
Bible is more reliable than tradition
God's name is Jehovah
Christ is God's Son and is inferior to Him
Christ was first of God's creations
Christ died on a stake, not a cross
Christ's human life was paid as a ransom for obedient humans
Christ's one sacrifice was sufficient
Christ was raised from the dead as an immortal spirit person
Christ's presence is in spirit
We are now in the 'time of the end'
Kingdom under Christ will rule earth in righteousness and peace
Kingdom will bring ideal living conditions to earth
Earth will never be destroyed or depopulated
God will eliminate present system of things in the battle at Har-Magedon
Wicked will be eternally destroyed
People God approves will receive everlasting life
There is only one road to life
Human death is due to Adam's sin
The human soul ceases to exist at death
Hell is mankind's common grave
Hope for dead is resurrection
Adamic death will cease
Only a little flock of 144,000 go to heaven and rule with Christ
The 144,000 are born again as spiritual sons of God
New covenant is made with spiritual Israel
Christ's congregation is built upon himself
Prayers are to be directed only to Jehovah through Christ
Images should not be used in worship
Spiritism must be shunned
Satan is invisible ruler of world
A Christian ought to have no part in interfaith movements
A Christian should keep separate from world
Obey human laws that do not conflict with God's laws
Taking blood into body through mouth or veins violates God's laws
Bible's laws on morals must be obeyed
Sabbath observance was given only to Israel and ended with Mosaic Law
A clergy class and special titles are improper
Man did not evolve but was created
Christ set example that must be followed in serving God
Baptism by complete immersion symbolizes dedication
Christians gladly give public testimony to Scriptural truth

Unitarians from americanunitarian.com

A Brief Statement on Universalism
Dean Fisher
Revised March, 19, 2001

"As one of the founders of the AUC, I personally believe in salvation as a state of mind, the salve that makes us spiritually whole, and that we strive to achieve that salvation here on earth for ourselves and for others. I do not know if there is salvation in the after life, and I do not believe that I can truly know if it exists, it is a mystery that I can only ponder. Therefore, since I can not say that all members of the human race have achieved salvation by becoming spiritually whole during their lifetime, and I can not say that all will achieve salvation in the after life, I personally do not believe in a literal universal salvation. But that is only how I know God. Others within the AUC will know God in other ways, and many of them will believe in universal salvation. There is room for that in the AUC, room to hold our myriad of views on salvation, and opportunity to share our views on salvation with each other.

One further thought that I have on salvation is this - it isn't important whether or not I believe that salvation exists, what is important is that I live my life as though it does."

Their beliefs:

1) the belief that human nature in its present condition is neither inherently corrupt nor depraved, but exactly as God created it and intended it to be from the beginning, capable of both good and evil;

2) the conviction that no religion has a monopoly on holy spirit or theological truth;

3) the belief that the Bible, while inspired of God, is written by humans and therefore subject to human error;

4) the rejection of traditional doctrines that malign God’s character or veil the true nature and mission of Jesus, such as the doctrines of predestination, eternal ****ation, the Trinity, and the vicarious sacrifice or satisfaction theory of the Atonement.

 

[Burninglight]

I wonder if there is an answer to this question...

When you say (as John Chapter 1 says according to some Christians) that God became a man... what do you mean?

Do you mean that God was God, but then He became a man and now He's not God anymore...

Or do you mean God became a man, but He was still God?

If the second explanation is true, then what does that mean? The reason I ask is because God and man are two seperate things... For example God is immortal. No one can kill God. But man is immortal. Thats why he's a man. So if God became man, which was He? Mortal or immortal?

Really I am not trying to be tongue in cheek. Im just trying to discover what you mean when you say God became a man. Does that mean that God became man so He wasn't God anymore, or does that mean that god became a man and was still God and so when He cut off His fingernails He was cutting off little pieces of God? Because neither option makes sense or even seems to be possible... so is there a third option I'm not thinking about?

Looking forward to your answers...

I believe that God is Spirit like the Bible states. I believe He is Holy; therefore, He is the Holy Spirit. Angels are Messengers that are holy, and they are spirits, but they are no the Holy Spirit. Jesus is the Word of God. The Word was what was made man. The Word of Gvod existed as long as God in the pre incarnate stage. The word of God is not a creation. that is why the Bible states all things were made by Christ through Christ and for Christ. Jesus is the Word that God spoke all thing into existence. He said be and there it was and is. Why the one true God has made His Holiness and His Word distinct persons I don't know, but we believe the Lord our God is one. I hope this helps

 

[Ramadhan]

Jesus is the Word of God. The Word was what was made man. The Word of Gvod existed as long as God in the pre incarnate stage. The word of God is not a creation.

The word of God may not be a creation, but surely anyone who is not insane would know that Jesus (pbuh) was created.
Unless you believe that created = uncreated.

 

[Burninglight]

I suspect you have been on the forum long enough to have seen these questions asked and answered many, many times. But the answers never seem to get through. I wish I had the links to all the other answers, because one more attempt may be just a futile, but here goes....

Very good answer and point.

First, you have to understand the Trinity---ONE God, Three Persons (Father, Son, and Holy Spirit). It was the SON who, though equally GOD with the Father and Spirit, took UPON Himself flesh (John 1:1,14). The Father did not take upon HIMSELF flesh; the Spirit did not take upon HIMSELF flesh. ONLY the SON took upon Himself flesh. The FATHER sent the SON to be the Savior of the world (1 John 4:14). The WAY the Son was the Savior of the world was by dying for the sins of the world. In order to do that HE had to take upon Himself mortal flesh capable of dying. His FLESH died, not His Deity. He was always GOD (clothed in the mortal, fleshly body), and yet He was also MAN because of that flesh. Phil. 2 explains it this way:

5. Let this mind be in you which was also in Christ Jesus,
6. who, being in the form of God, did not consider it robbery to be equal with God,
7. but made Himself of no reputation, taking the form of a servant, and coming in the likeness of men.
8. And being found in appearance as a man, He humbled Himself and became obedient to the point of death, even the death of the cross.
9. Therefore God also has highly exalted Him and given Him the name which is above every name,
10. that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of those in heaven, and of those on earth, and of those under the earth,
11. and that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

Now that is the Gospel

Jesus, though wrapped in flesh in order to die for our sins, never ceased to be God (i.e., possessing Deity as to His substance, nature, or essence, which never died and never will die). And in that flesh, He showed total submission and obedience to the Father, as an example and model for us (the opposite of what Adam and Eve did).

That is why Jesus is referred to as the last Adam and not the second; otherwise, some other prophet might try to claim something over Jesus who according to the bible is not just a prophet messenger so much as He is the message!

When He cut off His fingernails, He was cutting off little pieces of His flesh, not little pieces of God. His fingernails were not His Deity; they were part of His mortal flesh that was the outer "form of a servant" or "likeness of men" (see Phil 2:7, quoted above).

Amen to that, PBUY bro. That is the Christian response I agree with.

 

[Burninglight]

The word of God may not be a creation, but surely anyone who is not insane would know that Jesus (pbuh) was created.
Unless you believe that created = uncreated.

Well, we agree that the Word of God is not a creation. I would tend to agree with you also that the flesh and blood of Jesus was come about the way all flesh except His was an Immaculate Conception as we probably agree on that as well. That is the most I have ever agreed with a Muslim on one post and thread.
PBUY

 

[Ramadhan]

Well, we agree that the Word of God is not a creation.

You believe that Word of God is Jesus (pbuh). We don't believe that.

I would tend to agree with you also that the flesh and blood of Jesus was come about the way all flesh except His was an Immaculate Conception as we probably agree on that as well.

Do you tend to agree or do you agree with me?

Can a christian please give straight answer just once?

 

[Burninglight]

Originally Posted by Burninglight
Well, we agree that the Word of God is not a creation.
You believe that Word of God is Jesus (pbuh). We don't believe that.


Originally Posted by Burninglight
I would tend to agree with you also that the flesh and blood of Jesus was come about the way all flesh except His was an Immaculate Conception as we probably agree on that as well.
Do you tend to agree or do you agree with me?

Can a christian please give straight answer just once?

Many Muslims agree that Jesus is the Word of God but they don't believe He is the word made flesh, but you are telling me that you don't believe he is the word of God or do you? Please give me a straight answer from a Muslim's perspective.

I agree that Jesus' flesh and blood is like any other man, but I disagree that you say He is not the word of God made flesh and dwelled with us. The Word of God is not a creation; God's word is God! For God can do nothing without His word. Without His word, nothing would exist. "All things are held together by the word of His power." We believe Jesus is the word God used to speak all things into existence and holds all things together with. Jesus is not dead. He lives and He is coming back to judge the living and the dead!

 

[Ramadhan]

Many Muslims agree that Jesus is the Word of God

Another false statement about Islam.
You keep on LYING.

You claim that you are "true biblical christian"

Does bible command you to keep lying?