Early Christianity + Paganism = Modern Christianity

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QuranStudy said:
This thread has gone off topic lol
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not really..pagans are polytheists and associate partners with Allah.

Trinity is associating partners with ALlah also. So the topic is still being discussed.

I am just trying to get their view of trinity among other things...
 
Jayda said:
No, there was never a time where the Father was was without the Son.



With the Father



Yes, and to deliver the law and tell people about the comming of Jesus



They taught the Oneness of God... so does Trinity, nothing was changed...



Yes, he just didnt call it Trinity



You are Sameer... the diagram is talking about God, i cant make that kind of comparison...



Mary ascended to heaven, where she is with God and she can hear and see us... since she never died i dont think we can say she is dead but since she is in heaven i dont think we can say she is physically here... so i dont really know what she is other than in heaven with God...



Yes, very different she is considered above all the saints...



Prophets are also saints... we venerate them and ask for intercession when it is appropriate.


Yes

No

Yes in that he prayed to his father and they are one...
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I wasnt aware that christians thought that Mary never died....hmmm

Are all the prophets living in heaven? like mary? what about mother theresa...was she given sainthood as yet? or when she is given sainthood
wiil u pray to her also?

U said moses came to talk about the coming of Jesus? but read this link to find out y we believe that the person prophesied was Muhammad.

http://www.islam101.com/religions/christianity/mBible.htm

I really cant understand Y jesus would pray to himself for something...can u?
 
sameer said:
I am just trying to get their view of trinity among other things...
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check here:
discussion on trinity doctrin
The Trinity!
Differences between Christianity, Judaism and Islam
Question for Christians...
Questions about Christians
sameer said:
I wasnt aware that christians thought that Mary never died
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this belief is hold by catholics and orthodox. protestants don't believe it
sameer said:
Are all the prophets living in heaven? like mary? what about mother theresa...was she given sainthood as yet? or when she is given sainthood wiil u pray to her also?
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"When the Lord comes in glory, and all his angels with him, death will be no more and all things will be subject to him. But at the present time some of his disciples are pilgrims on earth. Others have died and are being purified, while still others are in glory, contemplating 'in full light, God himself triune and one, exactly as he is. So it is that the union of the wayfarers with the brethren who sleep in the peace of Christ is in no way interrupted, but on the contrary, according to the constant faith of the Church, this union is reinforced by an exchange of spiritual goods. Being more closely united to Christ, those who dwell in heaven fix the whole Church more firmly in holiness.... They do not cease to intercede with the Father for us, as they proffer the merits which they acquired on earth through the one mediator between God and men, Christ Jesus.... So by their fraternal concern is our weakness greatly helped".
That's form Catechism.
To make this shorter: We believe in one Church (like one Umma), that is union of all christians. Also those who are death and those who are "on pilgrimage" (= still breathing). Sometimes we ask our friends to pray for as. And we believe that in the same manner we can ask for prayer those who are no longer "on pilgirmage" (they don't work, don't watch tv, they have plenty of time to pray ;) ). So in muslim terms "praying to saints" = asking respected dead who we trust are "with God" to make dua for us.
Mather Theresa is not a saint yet. Church doesn't "give" sainthood (that's up to God) but only declares someone saint.
n.
 
Jayda said:
Not at all...

The Trinity tells you that although we have experienced God in three ways it is One God, and we should not be confused into thinking there are three seperate Gods trying to talk to us.

That is what the Trinity is... the unity of God. Our God is one...
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Experiencing God is different from giving him three different entities thus making One God into Plural gods.

To say there is a "unity" of God, is in essence saying that there were many other gods that were unified into one. There is a unity there, but they still technically arent one. They are three.

There is no logic behind the 3=1 and 1=3. Trying to explain that will lead to self contradiction over and over.
 
Ähmed said:
To say there is a "unity" of God, is in essence saying that there were many other gods that were unified into one. There is a unity there, but they still technically arent one. They are three.
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Maybe there is such a unity that there is One? “God is not solitude, but perfect communion. For this reason the human person, the image of God, realizes himself or herself in love, which is a sincere gift of self." (Benedict XIV)

Ähmed said:
There is no logic behind the 3=1 and 1=3. Trying to explain that will lead to self contradiction over and over.
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are you sure that nature of God has to be perfectly logical to us??? Are you sure that human can comprehand what He is?
n.
 
are you sure that nature of God has to be perfectly logical to us??? Are you sure that human can comprehand what He is?
n.
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So you are worshipping an entity you do not even understand? That doesnt sound logical to me.
 
duskiness said:
Maybe there is such a unity that there is One? “God is not solitude, but perfect communion. For this reason the human person, the image of God, realizes himself or herself in love, which is a sincere gift of self." (Benedict XIV)

are you sure that nature of God has to be perfectly logical to us??? Are you sure that human can comprehand what He is?
n.
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I dont think we can ever really comprehend the full essence of God other than that what he revealed to us. How ever i dont think God would contradict himself by saying he is one but on the other hand say he is three in one.

When u pray oh father who art in heaven (im not sure if thats the proper wording but i am sure u know what i mean) are u praying to the whole or part of God? As u say ure God is a jealous God.....so wont the son get jealous that u are praying to the father? Are the particular branches have particular things that they do? Also what does God say in the bible about praying to other than
him or asking other to interecede for u?
 
sameer said:
When u pray oh father who art in heaven (im not sure if thats the proper wording but i am sure u know what i mean) are u praying to the whole or part of God?
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yes, i pray to "whole" God
sameer said:
Are the particular branches have particular things that they do?
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we usualy say that Father is God above us (one who creates), Son - God among us (logos - one who rules this world, reason, tao), Spirit - God in us (one who inspire)
sameer said:
Also what does God say in the bible about praying to other than him or asking other to interecede for u?
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i don't know... and what Quran says about asking other Muslim to pray for you? :)
n.
 
sameer said:
I wasnt aware that christians thought that Mary never died....hmmm

Are all the prophets living in heaven? like mary??
what about mother theresa...was she given sainthood as yet? or when she is given sainthood
wiil u pray to her also?

U said moses came to talk about the coming of Jesus? but read this link to find out y we believe that the person prophesied was Muhammad.

http://www.islam101.com/religions/christianity/mBible.htm

I really cant understand Y jesus would pray to himself for something...can u?
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I dont know about the saints, i dont know about Mother Theresa... if i have a reason to i will ask intercession through her to God.

Why wouldnt Jesus pray... that is how you talk to God and that is how he talks to his father...
 
Ähmed said:
Experiencing God is different from giving him three different entities thus making One God into Plural gods.

To say there is a "unity" of God, is in essence saying that there were many other gods that were unified into one. There is a unity there, but they still technically arent one. They are three.

There is no logic behind the 3=1 and 1=3. Trying to explain that will lead to self contradiction over and over.
Click to expand...

We do not believe in a unity of plural gods. We believe in the Unity of the One True God.
 
Jayda said:
I dont know about the saints, i dont know about Mother Theresa... if i have a reason to i will ask intercession through her to God.

Why wouldnt Jesus pray... that is how you talk to God and that is how he talks to his father...
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the point of the question if jesus ever pray was to point to the other question y would he pray to himself if he is god.
 
duskiness said:
yes, i pray to "whole" God
we usualy say that Father is God above us (one who creates), Son - God among us (logos - one who rules this world, reason, tao), Spirit - God in us (one who inspire)
i don't know... and what Quran says about asking other Muslim to pray for you? :)
n.
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It is allowed in Islam to ask others to pray for u. But offcourse u must pray for ure self also. However we dont pray/ask ppl who are dead/gone/moved on to pray for us, because they are dead and cant help/hear us.

Mybe u have noticed a Dua request thread where ppl ask others to pray for them for some reason of the other?
 
sameer said:
the point of the question if jesus ever pray was to point to the other question y would he pray to himself if he is god.
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He was also (fully) human. And we pray.

btw: there is a nice quote about this:
"Christianity is the only religion on earth that has felt that omnipotence made God incomplete. Christianity alone has felt that God, to be wholly God must be a rebel as well as a king."
G.K. Chesterton, English critic and author (1874-1936)

how do you like it? :)
n
 
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Jayda said:
That is correct, we are worshipping an entity we do not even understand.
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There is a hadith/saying of the prophet (saw) (in my own words) that who ever Allahs wishes good for, he grants him understanding of the religion/way of life.
 
sameer said:
the point of the question if jesus ever pray was to point to the other question y would he pray to himself if he is god.
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He was fully man and fully God and was showing us how to live, and so he showed us how to pray.
 
sameer said:
There is a hadith/saying of the prophet (saw) (in my own words) that who ever Allahs wishes good for, he grants him understanding of the religion/way of life.
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Understanding a religion is not the same as understanding God, St, Augustine has a famous quote:

"God is not what you imagine or what you think you understand. If you understand you have failed.”
 
duskiness said:
He was also (fully) human. And we pray.

btw: there is a nice quote about this:
"Christianity is the only religion on earth that has felt that omnipotence made God incomplete. Christianity alone has felt that God, to be wholly God must be a rebel as well as a king."
G.K. Chesterton, English critic and author (1874-1936)

who do you like it? :)
n
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huh? God couldnt be God without being a rebel? a rebel to what? God dont rebel..its mankind that rebels. If u look at these statements i think God is held in a lowly manner here by giving him human attributes. God is God...he need nothing else, he dosent need us or to do anything to be complete.
 

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