Prove that the Qur'an is NOT the word of God.

[thirdwatch512]

Re: Miracles and Facts about the Quran

there are also scientific errors in the qu'ran..

"When he reached the setting place of the sun, he found it setting in a muddy spring and found a people thereabout. We said: ‘O Dhul-Qarneyn! Either punish or show them kindness"’ (Surah 18:86).

my point is, is we should use science to justify our religion. because all in all, every religion has mistakes in their books.. every one.. including the qu'ran.

 

[جوري]

Re: Miracles and Facts about the Quran

there are also scientific errors in the qu'ran..

"When he reached the setting place of the sun, he found it setting in a muddy spring and found a people thereabout. We said: ‘O Dhul-Qarneyn! Either punish or show them kindness"’ (Surah 18:86).

my point is, is we should use science to justify our religion. because all in all, every religion has mistakes in their books.. every one.. including the qu'ran.

ha? I am sorry where is the error? Do you speak Arabic?

 

[thirdwatch512]

Re: Miracles and Facts about the Quran

does the sun set in a murky pool? nope.

 

[جوري]

Re: Miracles and Facts about the Quran

does the sun set in a murky pool? nope.

Glad you can answer your own Q's........ where was the roundness of the sun and earth when Al-Idirsi a Muslim scholar gave a globe depicting the earth to Roger the II only to have Roger crush it telling him the world is flat?
http://members.tripod.com/~wzzz/IDRISI.html

Also glad you are well versed in the Quran and all its verses ..... such as in verse 79,وَالْأَرْضَ بَعْدَ ذَلِكَ دَحَاهَا {30...... "da'7a'ha" literally meaning God giving the earth its round shape....... does it say that in any other biblical book? I can tell you now no!...... also does it tell you in any other revelation this?
هُوَ الَّذِيَ أَنزَلَ عَلَيْكَ الْكِتَابَ مِنْهُ آيَاتٌ مُّحْكَمَاتٌ هُنَّ أُمُّ الْكِتَابِ وَأُخَرُ مُتَشَابِهَاتٌ فَأَمَّا الَّذِينَ في قُلُوبِهِمْ زَيْغٌ فَيَتَّبِعُونَ مَا تَشَابَهَ مِنْهُ ابْتِغَاء الْفِتْنَةِ وَابْتِغَاء تَأْوِيلِهِ وَمَا يَعْلَمُ تَأْوِيلَهُ إِلاَّ اللّهُ وَالرَّاسِخُونَ فِي الْعِلْمِ يَقُولُونَ آمَنَّا بِهِ كُلٌّ مِّنْ عِندِ رَبِّنَا وَمَا يَذَّكَّرُ إِلاَّ أُوْلُواْ الألْبَابِ {7}
[Shakir 3:7] He it is Who has revealed the Book to you; some of its verses are decisive, they are the basis of the Book, and others are allegorical; then as for those in whose hearts there is perversity they follow the part of it which is allegorical, seeking to mislead and seeking to give it (their own) interpretation. but none knows its interpretation except Allah, and those who are firmly rooted in knowledge say: We believe in it, it is all from our Lord; and none do mind except those having understanding.

Question is can you tell the difference between what is allegorical and what is a fundamental? since you are so well versed in Arabic, in the Quran and its scientific miracles?

 

[Ansar Al-'Adl]

Re: Miracles and Facts about the Quran

there are also scientific errors in the qu'ran..

"When he reached the setting place of the sun, he found it setting in a muddy spring and found a people thereabout. We said: ‘O Dhul-Qarneyn! Either punish or show them kindness"’ (Surah 18:86).

Hi Thirdwatch512,
These ignorant claims were debunked ages ago, even on this very forum they've already been answered. From post 7:

if it was, then you would think that allah would know a bit more about science.

All of your claims without exception have been refuted previously.
http://www.islamicboard.com/47842-post3.html

"Until when he reached the place where the sun set, he found it going down into a black sea, and found by it a people. We said: O Zulqarnain! either give them a chastisement or do them a benefit.
He said: As to him who is unjust, we will chastise him, then shall he be returned to his Lord, and He will chastise him with an exemplary chastisement:
And as for him who believes and does good, he shall have goodly reward, and We will speak to him an easy word of Our command.
Then he followed (another) course.
Until when he reached the land of the rising of the sun, he found it rising on a people to whom We had given no shelter from It"---18:86-90

As Muhammad Asad clarifies:

[And he marched westwards] till, when he came to the setting of the sun," it appeared to him that it was setting in a dark, turbid sea;" and nearby he found a people [given to every kind of wrongdoing].

Or: "abundance of water" - which, according to many philologists (cf. Taj al= Aras), is one of the meanings of `ayn (primarily denoting a "spring"). As for my rendering of the phrase "he found it (wajadaha) setting...", etc., as "it appeared to him that it was setting", see Razi and Ibn Kathir, both of whom point out that we have here a metaphor based on the common optical illusion of the sun's "disappearing into the sea"; and Razi explains this, correctly, by the fact that the earth is spherical. (It is interesting to note that, according to him, this explanation was already advanced in the - now lost - Qur'an-commentary of AN `All al-Jubba i, the famous Mu'tazili scholar who died in 303 H., which corresponds to 915 or 916 of the Christian era.)​

Along the same lines:

The verses narrate part of the story of Zul-Qarnain. Being a great traveller Prophet Zul-Qarnain eventually, at sun set, arrived at a place where there were springs of vast murky waters. He found around it tribes of people, some righteous and some malign. The narration goes on to describe how Zul-Qarnain was given authority to rule over them as a just king. It narrates the version of events as he, Zul-Qarnain saw them – he saw the sun set in a murky water, nothing wrong with that. The second verse narrates that Zul-Qarnain turned another direction and travelled on until he saw the sun rise and it just so happens that he saw it rise on a people who were without shade. Again, a very simple narration, no claim of being scientific fact.

The critics who raise this issue and claim that the God of the Quran does not know the simple scientific that the sun never actually sets are barking up the wrong tree. The above verses in no way make the claim of being scientific fact as God sees it. We don’t see God making the claim that the sun sets into murky waters! Or rises on a certain group of people. We simply see God describing things as witnessed by Zul-Qarnain - "They ask thee concerning Zul-Qarnain. Say, "I will rehearse to you something of his story". The sun sets wherever you see it set. If you are on a beach you will see it set into the ocean. If you are on a hill, you will see it set behind the hill.​

See also:
http://www.geocities.com/noorullahwebsite/zul-qarnain.html

Regards

 

[D.Y.R#7XTRUST]

The Koran teaches us that there are seven heavens one above the other and that the stars are in the lower heaven, but the moon is in the midst of the seven heavens.

However, in reality the stars are much further away from the earth than the moon.

(Koran 67:3-5)
He Who created the seven heavens, one above the
other...And WE have adorned the lowest heaven with
lamps ...

(Koran 71:15-16)
Do you not see how God has created the seven heavens
one above the other, and made the moon a light in their
midst,and made the sun as a lamp?

(Koran 71:41:12)
And He completed the seven heavens in two
days and inspired in each heaven its command;
and We adorned the lower heaven with lamps,
and rendered it guarded...

Firstly, the Koran states that there are seven heavens in universe. Any sane person who has studied a bit of Modern Astronomy can tell that the conception of seven heavens was nothing but a result of Mohammed's absurd imagination. Muslim compliers try to cover up this serious flaw in the Koran by saying that the expression should be considered poetic rather than scientific.

Secondly, Koran claims that the stars are in a lower or even lowest heaven, while the moon is in a middle heaven. Even a child in primary standard knows today that the stars are much much further away from the earth than the moon.

MOD: SEE FORUM RULES ON LINKS.
http://www.moncton.net/forum/thread/56765.aspx

 

[thirdwatch512]

Ansar.. I can totally how mohammad and his people would just go to a spring and watch the sun setting with people at the spring. However, look at this other verse from the qu'ran..

"Abu Dharr (one of Muhammad’s close companions) was with Muhammad during the sunset. Muhammad asked him: ‘Do you know, O Abu Dharr where this sets?’ He answered: ‘God and His apostle know better.’ Muhammad said: ‘It sets in a spring of slimy water"’ (3rd Edition, Volume 2 p. 743,1987).

that cleary says right there that they believe the sun sets in a spring of water.

now to PurestAmbrosia...

you said "can any other books tell you the sun is round?" Actually the Bible does.

"It is He who sits above the circle of the earth" (Isa. 40:22).
.. The Bible is saying the Earth is round. compare it to this islamic verse..

"Will they not regard the camels how they are created...and the Earth how it is spread?" 88:17-20

how it is spread is insisting the earth is flat.. or according to some.

 

[جوري]

I don't think you speak or understand arabic.. nor have you taken the time to read the replies given you........ Again I quoted you a verse stating "wal'ard ba'3d Zhalika da7'ha" meanng given the earth its round shape (da'7a'ha) being the same word used in every verse to describe any orbit earth sun or otherwise... unless you know something else that us native Arabic speakers and Muslims don't know?...Also enlighten us as to how "Dhul quarnyen" is prophet Mohammed PBUH and his people? do you know anything at all of Gog and Magog? well Dhul qarnyen is the one who built the wall to keep them there ages before prophet Mohammed PBUH... if you don't know the first thing about the verse, what it entails, whom it is about or the Quran, the hadiths of prophet Mohammed, then please don't come struting lack of knowledge and of your linguistic skills, which obviousely you don't possess unless you feel like being exceptionally cavalier and don't mind being publically humiliated...... I can quote you tons of biblial verses from the bible wrought with error
Isaiah 11:12
12 And he shall set up an ensign for the nations, and shall assemble the outcasts of Israel, and gather together the dispersed of Judah from the FOUR CORNERS OF THE EARTH. (KJV)

Revelation 7:1
1 And after these things I saw four angels standing on FOUR CORNERS OF THE EARTH, holding the four winds of the earth, that the wind should not blow on the earth, nor on the sea, nor on any tree. (KJV)

Job 38:13
13 That it might take hold of the ENDS OF THE EARTH, that the wicked might be shaken out of it? (KJV)

Jeremiah 16:19
19 O LORD, my strength, and my fortress, and my refuge in the day of affliction, the Gentiles shall come unto thee from the ENDS OF THE EARTH, and shall say, Surely our fathers have inherited lies, vanity, and things wherein there is no profit. (KJV)

Daniel 4:11
11 The tree grew, and was strong, and the height thereof reached unto heaven, and the sight thereof to the ENDS OF ALL THE EARTH: (KJV)

Matthew 4:8
8 Again, the devil taketh him up into an exceeding high mountain, and sheweth him all the kingdoms of the world, and the glory of them; (KJV)
"He set the earth on its foundations; it can never be moved. (From the NIV Bible, Psalm 104:5)"

just to name a few .... but that is of no interest to me ... And again I also quoted you a verse from chapter (sura) III stating that there are decisive verses (fundamental) verses and there is that which is allegorical... why not read before you post, as I tire of repeating myself....... I can't even be bothered with the other hateful novice......
There is a search option here where you can familiarize yourself with an argument (conjectures/refutations) so you can come better armed........ Also if you are going to quote a page and a volume do mention the book you got it from as well as the author, etc etc... to save yourself from a terrible embarrassment.............
peace

 

[Umar001]

Peace be upon those who follow guidance.
I am just curious, I do not speak arabic, so I will leave the proper refuting to others. But I will just say:

The Koran teaches us that there are seven heavens one above the other and that the stars are in the lower heaven, but the moon is in the midst of the seven heavens.

However, in reality the stars are much further away from the earth than the moon.

(Koran 67:3-5)
He Who created the seven heavens, one above the
other...And WE have adorned the lowest heaven with
lamps ...

(Koran 71:15-16)
Do you not see how God has created the seven heavens
one above the other, and made the moon a light in their
midst,and made the sun as a lamp?

(Koran 71:41:12)
And He completed the seven heavens in two
days and inspired in each heaven its command;
and We adorned the lower heaven with lamps,
and rendered it guarded...

Firstly, the Koran states that there are seven heavens in universe. Any sane person who has studied a bit of Modern Astronomy can tell that the conception of seven heavens was nothing but a result of Mohammed's absurd imagination. Muslim compliers try to cover up this serious flaw in the Koran by saying that the expression should be considered poetic rather than scientific.

Secondly, Koran claims that the stars are in a lower or even lowest heaven, while the moon is in a middle heaven. Even a child in primary standard knows today that the stars are much much further away from the earth than the moon.


http://www.moncton.net/forum/thread/56765.aspx

What does in the Midst mean? Please enlighten me, if you will other translations say:

YUSUFALI: "'And made the moon a light in their midst, and made the sun as a (Glorious) Lamp?

PICKTHAL: And hath made the moon a light therein, and made the sun a lamp?

SHAKIR: And made the moon therein a light, and made the sun a lamp?

Please show me which one specifies in which heaven the moon is in?

"Will they not regard the camels how they are created...and the Earth how it is spread?" 88:17-20

how it is spread is insisting the earth is flat.. or according to some.

Have you considered other verses?

071.019
YUSUFALI: "'And Allah has made the earth for you as a carpet (spread out),
PICKTHAL: And Allah hath made the earth a wide expanse for you
SHAKIR: And Allah has made for you the earth a wide expanse,

Vast and spread out, but read on,

071.020
YUSUFALI: "'That ye may go about therein, in spacious roads.'"
PICKTHAL: That ye may thread the valley-ways thereof.
SHAKIR: That you may go along therein in wide paths.

The earth on the surface is spread out, is it not? How are we inhabitating it.

Further More, look at what Ambrosia posted, read the arabic of that verse.

To move on:

Daniel 4

11 The tree grew, and was strong, and the height thereof reached unto heaven, and the sight thereof to the ENDS OF ALL THE EARTH: (KJV)

How could this happen in our world? If a tree in England kept growing it still would not be seen by the opposite side of the earth.

Matthew 4:8

8 Again, the devil taketh him up into an exceeding high mountain, and sheweth him all the kingdoms of the world, and the glory of them; (KJV)

Even if we imagine that Jesus had the best view, from the highest mountain he would not be able to see the side opposite.

Unless in both cases they thought the world to be FLAT.
As for the circle, simple, the earth is a Flat Circle, like a coin, Biblically speaking.

Peace be upon the Prophets and Messengers from Aadam to Muhammad, including Moses, David, Solomon, John and Jesus.

 

[جوري]

you know I am just going to add one thing to the above completely unrelated but in a very strong way is......... in the Quran there is a verse describing this very image

verse Surah 55:37

فَإِذَا انشَقَّتِ السَّمَاء فَكَانَتْ وَرْدَةً كَالدِّهَانِ {37}​

[Shakir 55:37] And when the heaven is rent asunder, and then becomes red like red hide.
[Yusufali 55:37] When the sky is rent asunder, and it becomes red like ointment:
[Pickthal 55:37] And when the heaven splitteth asunder and becometh rosy like red hide -
The word Warda وَرْدَةً In Arabic literally means rose... yet, you don't see any of the translators using the word rose .. They tried their best... considering... even Pickthall was a British a (WASP) by all standards and made a considerable effort to learn Arabic for which he should be commended but it doesn't convey to others the true meaning of the verses... so it bewilders me how people can grab something from a third source, most likely written by those who wish to misguide others on hate website without truly investigating the meaning... looking to see if something it literal or if it allegorical, or metaphorical... suddenly every one is an expert?... When there are those of us who dedicate years to learning and still know we are ignorant. My colleague who is an imam always speaks to me of how ignorant he is and he is one of the most knowledgeable people I know... so how is it that these non-arabic speaking non-muslims are suddenly quite the connoisseurs?
peace!

 

[Nσσя'υℓ Jαииαн]

true! i couldnt rep u so ill jus say it =)

 

[جوري]

true! i couldnt rep u so ill jus say it =)

Thank you sis....... l

 

[thirdwatch512]

My colleague who is an imam always speaks to me of how ignorant he is and he is one of the most knowledgeable people I know... so how is it that these non-arabic speaking non-muslims are suddenly quite the connoisseurs?
peace!

well if you ever go against the Bible, I hope you know Hebrew and Greek first.

i just read what the versus say from the qu'ran software i have in english.. and i actually have this free software called "Ocean" and it has several translations of the qu'ran in english.. prolly 4 or 5. and they all say the same thing.. the sun sets in a murky pool. and i don't know arabic, and i'm not muslim, but it clearly says that.

 

[جوري]

well if you ever go against the Bible, I hope you know Hebrew and Greek first.

i just read what the versus say from the qu'ran software i have in english.. and i actually have this free software called "Ocean" and it has several translations of the qu'ran in english.. prolly 4 or 5. and they all say the same thing.. the sun sets in a murky pool. and i don't know arabic, and i'm not muslim, but it clearly says that.

Bible was written in Aramaic... very close to Arabic... Yes I have read it... The scriptures were given to you from God before mankind corrupted it.... and we make no distinction between any of his messengers......teach yourself or ask please of what/ when/ and why a verse was revealed before making claims.... Just a few weeks ago I had to consult with someone on the meaning of a verse that I didn't understand. And Arabic is my native tongue........ I can't keep repeating this ad infinitum with every post it is getting old.......

آمَنَ الرَّسُولُ بِمَا أُنزِلَ إِلَيْهِ مِن رَّبِّهِ وَالْمُؤْمِنُونَ كُلٌّ آمَنَ بِاللّهِ وَمَلآئِكَتِهِ وَكُتُبِهِ وَرُسُلِهِ لاَ نُفَرِّقُ بَيْنَ أَحَدٍ مِّن رُّسُلِهِ وَقَالُواْ سَمِعْنَا وَأَطَعْنَا غُفْرَانَكَ رَبَّنَا وَإِلَيْكَ الْمَصِيرُ {285}​

[Shakir 2:285] The messenger believes in what has been revealed to him from his Lord, and (so do) the believers; they all believe in Allah and His angels and His books and His messengers; We make no difference between any of His messengers; and they say: We hear and obey, our Lord! Thy forgiveness (do we crave), and to Thee is the eventual course.
[Yusufali 2:285] The Messenger believeth in what hath been revealed to him from his Lord, as do the men of faith. Each one (of them) believeth in Allah, His angels, His books, and His messengers. "We make no distinction (they say) between one and another of His messengers." And they say: "We hear, and we obey: (We seek) Thy forgiveness, our Lord, and to Thee is the end of all journeys."
[Pickthal 2:285] The messenger believeth in that which hath been revealed unto him from his Lord and (so do) believers. Each one believeth in Allah and His angels and His scriptures and His messengers - We make no distinction between any of His messengers - and they say: We hear, and we obey. (Grant us) Thy forgiveness, our Lord. Unto Thee is the journeying.
peace!

 

[Ibn Abi Ahmed]

From Br.lolwhatever:

thirdwatch512, please watch Zakir Naik's debate with William Cambell who brought up the sunset as an error:

http://www.aswatalislam.net/DisplayFilesP.aspx?TitleID=2054

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PcKZnmBnQVE&mode=related&search=

In short, that's such an obvious piece of imagery!!! sunset... everyone knows the sun doesn't set, but it's a metaphor!!! lol that means all the newspapers and media centers in the world are guilty of scientific inaccuracy for using the word sunset!!!

 

[جوري]

exactly like the jacques brell poem that speaks of the sun setting on the edge of the horizon... what amazes me is I quoted for him from the Quran that there are allegorical verses... he either doesn't understand what that means... or just simply hasn't read any replies........

هُوَ الَّذِيَ أَنزَلَ عَلَيْكَ الْكِتَابَ مِنْهُ آيَاتٌ مُّحْكَمَاتٌ هُنَّ أُمُّ الْكِتَابِ وَأُخَرُ مُتَشَابِهَاتٌ فَأَمَّا الَّذِينَ في قُلُوبِهِمْ زَيْغٌ فَيَتَّبِعُونَ مَا تَشَابَهَ مِنْهُ ابْتِغَاء الْفِتْنَةِ وَابْتِغَاء تَأْوِيلِهِ وَمَا يَعْلَمُ تَأْوِيلَهُ إِلاَّ اللّهُ وَالرَّاسِخُونَ فِي الْعِلْمِ يَقُولُونَ آمَنَّا بِهِ كُلٌّ مِّنْ عِندِ رَبِّنَا وَمَا يَذَّكَّرُ إِلاَّ أُوْلُواْ الألْبَابِ {7}​

[Shakir 3:7] He it is Who has revealed the Book to you; some of its verses are decisive, they are the basis of the Book, and others are allegorical; then as for those in whose hearts there is perversity they follow the part of it which is allegorical, seeking to mislead and seeking to give it (their own) interpretation. but none knows its interpretation except Allah, and those who are firmly rooted in knowledge say: We believe in it, it is all from our Lord; and none do mind except those having understanding.
sheesh

 

[Nσσя'υℓ Jαииαн]

Oh true i never thought of that....lol

 

[Ansar Al-'Adl]

Greetings,

The Koran teaches us that there are seven heavens one above the other and that the stars are in the lower heaven, but the moon is in the midst of the seven heavens.

The critic [since they are not your own words] initiates the argument by projecting their own interpretations and assumptions on to the Qur'an. The Qur'an says that As-Samâ Ad-Dunya (cosmic/worldly/lowest heaven/sky) is adorned with stars. It says the moon is in the seven heavens (fîhinna lit. means in them). The word 'midst' is not in the Qur'an but is a word some translators chose to convey a certain meaning. So when we look at what the Qur'anic verses actually say, there is nothing problematic about them at all. It is only after the critic subjects them to dozens of mutually conflicting assumptions that they are able to develop such an issue.

Firstly, the Koran states that there are seven heavens in universe. Any sane person who has studied a bit of Modern Astronomy can tell that the conception of seven

Rubbish. Modern astronomy and all empirical science for that matter is concerned with the investigation of our observable universe. By definition, such statements are beyond the scope of scientific inquiry. There is no experiment one can develop to determine wheter there exist heavens or dimensions beyond our observable universe.

The other assumptions were debunked above.

Hello,

However, look at this other verse from the qu'ran..

"Abu Dharr (one of Muhammad’s close companions) was with Muhammad during the sunset. Muhammad asked him: ‘Do you know, O Abu Dharr where this sets?’ He answered: ‘God and His apostle know better.’ Muhammad said: ‘It sets in a spring of slimy water"’ (3rd Edition, Volume 2 p. 743,1987).

You've just openly exposed your ABSOLUTE IGNORANCE on the most basic fundamentals of Islam!! You go to an anti-islamic website and copy a quote without even the slightest clue as to what source you are quoting!! I can't believe anyone can be so obtuse as to pick out such a random quote and then claim that it is a verse from the Qur'an!! Do you know where that quote is from? You wrote "3rd edition, volume 2 p. 743, 1987" but do you even understand what this is? This is a quote from the exegesis of ZAMAKHSHARI!! It is not a verse from the Qur'an, not a sahih hadith, but a tradition quoted amongst many unauthenticated traditions in an exegetical work that has a weak standing in everything other than lingusitics. So the value of the quote you provide: ZERO.

So we see a major problem in your attempts to dialogue if you are just going to go fish out random texts and you have no stinking clue what these quotes mean, where they are from or how to use them. If you want to discuss with me we need INTEGRITY and SINCERITY. You need to question honestly with the intention of learning so that you avoid making such foolish blunders.

Regards

 

[thirdwatch512]

So we see a major problem in your attempts to dialogue if you are just going to go fish out random texts and you have no stinking clue what these quotes mean, where they are from or how to use them. If you want to discuss with me we need INTEGRITY and SINCERITY. You need to question honestly with the intention of learning so that you avoid making such foolish blunders.

Regards

it's from the hadith though.. and i put qu'ran because i was looking for another verse in the qu'ran that talked about it, but i couldn't find it so i put that.

and please do not get all rude and offensive. i know it hurts for people to critisize your religion, but try to keep an open mind!

and also, here's a contradiction within the qu'ran..

which was built first, heaven or earth according to the qu'ran?

-Heaven

Are ye the harder to create, or is the heaven that He built? He raised the height thereof and ordered it; And He made dark the night thereof, and He brought forth the morn thereof. And after that He spread the earth....

-Earth
Say (O Muhammad, unto the idolaters): Disbelieve ye verily in Him Who created the earth in two Days ... Then turned He to the heaven ... Then He ordained them seven heavens in two Days ....

He it is Who created for you all that is in the earth. Then turned He to the heaven, and fashioned it as seven heavens.

MOD: PLEASE DISCUSS ISSUES ONE AT A TIME. PASTING A LIST OF ALLEGATIONS IS A CLEAR COP-OUT FROM DEBATE.

 

[`Abd al-Azeez]

Since br. Ansar is not here, I guess I'll have to take his place and use his own article to reconcile the so-called "contradictions"




Here's the link:

http://www.islamicboard.com/refutations/839-alleged-contradictions-quran.html

:W: