Prove that the Qur'an is NOT the word of God.

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Re: Prove that the Quran Is not the word of God.

Pagal Kuri said:
We can say it mate. Trust me. I give you 150% assurance it has not been changed. :D
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Well I can accept that as a statement of religious belief, but as a historical fact? How do you know? May I ask you my Rajam question again? Umar said that there used to be a verse on stoning that they recited (as if, I assume, it was part of the Quran). There is no such verse there now. As has been explained to me that verse has been abrogated. Which is fine by me, but when was it abrogated?
 
Re: Prove that the Quran Is not the word of God.

I'm lost agen :rollseyes
 
Re: Prove that the Quran Is not the word of God.

Umm from what i understand, abrogate doesn't mean the previous verse is lost, it would still be present in the Qur'an, just the rule does not apply anymore. I'm sure Ansar will provide links to explain
 
Re: Prove that the Quran Is not the word of God.

Pagal Kuri said:
Well I can accept that as a statement of religious belief, but as a historical fact? How do you know? May I ask you my Rajam question again? Umar said that there used to be a verse on stoning that they recited (as if, I assume, it was part of the Quran). There is no such verse there now. As has been explained to me that verse has been abrogated. Which is fine by me, but when was it abrogated?
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I'm lost agen :rollseyes
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Sorry. From the Sahih Bukhari, Volume 8, Book 82, Number 817:

Narrated Ibn 'Abbas:

>deletions<

In the meantime, 'Umar sat on the pulpit and when the callmakers for the prayer had finished their call, 'Umar stood up, and having glorified and praised Allah as He deserved, he said, "Now then, I am going to tell you something which (Allah) has written for me to say. I do not know; perhaps it portends my death, so whoever understands and remembers it, must narrate it to the others wherever his mount takes him, but if somebody is afraid that he does not understand it, then it is unlawful for him to tell lies about me. Allah sent Muhammad with the Truth and revealed the Holy Book to him, and among what Allah revealed, was the Verse of the Rajam (the stoning of married person (male & female) who commits illegal sexual intercourse, and we did recite this Verse and understood and memorized it. Allah's Apostle did carry out the punishment of stoning and so did we after him.

I am afraid that after a long time has passed, somebody will say, 'By Allah, we do not find the Verse of the Rajam in Allah's Book,' and thus they will go astray by leaving an obligation which Allah has revealed. And the punishment of the Rajam is to be inflicted to any married person (male & female), who commits illegal sexual intercourse, if the required evidence is available or there is conception or confession.​

Now according to this, Muslims used to recite a verse which called for the stoning of married men and women who committed adultery. And they do, in fact, stone in theory married men and women for this. But now there is no such verse in the Quran. Ansar Al-Adl provided a very good explanation saying that it had been abrogated, text and all. But the question that only occurred to me later was when was it abrogated but I didn't ask because it was too late. So when was this verse abrogated?

You see how it looks to a non-Muslim? I can accept that you believe that the Quran is unchanged and that is a perfectly respectable belief from where I sit. But I am not a Muslim and this looks odd to me. Now of course smarter people than me must have noticed this and there must be a sensible reason, but it still looks odd.
 
Re: Prove that the Quran Is not the word of God.

You see how it looks to a non-Muslim? I can accept that you believe that the Quran is unchanged and that is a perfectly respectable belief from where I sit.
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No matter what anyone says HeiGou, the Muslims who have true faith will never belive its changed.

It says in the Qur'an that the disbelievers will try to find contradictions in the Qur'an as they will try and prove it is not "original", but they will get their punishment by Allah on the D.O.J
 
Re: Prove that the Quran Is not the word of God.

Pagal Kuri said:
No matter what anyone says HeiGou, the Muslims who have true faith will never belive its changed.

It says in the Qur'an that the disbelievers will try to find contradictions in the Qur'an as they will try and prove it is not "original", but they will get their punishment by Allah on the D.O.J
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I wouldn't want to change your faith in any way shape or form!

I like that quote from the Quran though. May I ask where it is from exactly? I think it is a verse I need to read.
 
Re: Prove that the Quran Is not the word of God.

Salam bro Ansar

I read the link you posted, i'm confused.

Now what is doctrine of naskh?

The way i understood it was that the rule is simply abbroagted, but a verse reavealed fom God is never lost. I read the answer by Dr Naik.

From the hadith it implies there once existed a verse, that is no longer in the Qur'an anymore
 
Re: Prove that the Quran Is not the word of God.

From the hadith it implies there once existed a verse, that is no longer in the Qur'an anymore
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It's true, but it wasn't lost. It was removed from the Qur'an on purpose.
 
Re: Prove that the Quran Is not the word of God.

I'm lost :rollseyes Agen :(
 
Re: Prove that the Quran Is not the word of God.

Ansar Al-'Adl said:
We don't have an exact date, but I'm not sure why this would matter.
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Because all the answers may be obvious to you, but they are not to me and the more I think about it, the more questions I have. For instance, if the Quran has existed since the beginning of time, which we all agree is an Islamic belief, did it contain the Rajam sura before Muhammed was born? If not, in what sense can the Rajam verse ever be said to be part of the Quran?

I am not asking serious questions because I haven't thought about all the implications yet, and I don't know about you, but this changes the way I think about the Quran.
 
Re: Prove that the Quran Is not the word of God.

Pagal Kuri said:
I'm lost :rollseyes Agen :(
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Well I am not the person to explain, but I'll do my best - you are warned that this may not be entirely correct. There is a hadith in the Sahih Bukhari that says that at one time Muslims had a verse that required married adulterers to be stoned to death. By the time Umar came to be Caliph, it was not written down and yet he insisted that it was Revealed. So it appears it is an abrogated verse. Most abrogated passages are different in that their meaning is voided, but the text remains - so the Quran has a number of passages whose meaning no long applies because they have been superceded by other passages. Yet they are still in the Quran. This one is the other way around - the text is gone (there is nothing in the Quran that says that adulterers should be stoned to death) but the meaning remains. It is all very interesting and complex but worth following because it is such an interesting insight into the process of Islamic law, texts and jurisprudence.
 
Re: Prove that the Quran Is not the word of God.

Well there are different types of abrogation. In this case, the verse was removed but its ruling remained.

Yes some verses are still in the Qur'an but their rulings are abrogated. Why? Well Allaah (swt) wanted it to be so.

Islam builds both on the Qur'an, the Ahadith and the Sunnah. The fallacy missionaries often commit is that they try to force upon Muslims to only read the Qur'an and nothing else. This is because the Christians have fused their counterparts of the Qur'an (i.e Injeel), the Sirah, the Sunnah and the Ahadith into one book, whereas our are separated, yet they are all indispensable. One can't practice Islam without consulting both the Qur'an and the Ahadith/Sunnah. Often the Ahadith give the situation in which a verse or a passage was revealed, and often contribute with interesting information concerning the events narrated. Look for example the Tafsir of Surah Yusuf, you can for example see "Mujahid and Qatadah said..." concerning different verses.
 
Re: Prove that the Quran Is not the word of God.

What does "abrogated" mean?
I do not understand, were there parts of the koran removed? I heard somewhere that the prophet talked about 3 women doughters of Allah or something- is this true? Are they the "satanic verses" that that salmon rushdie talked about?, The story, I think- I am doing this from memory (but I haven't read his book, so I am not sure where I heard this)- is that the prophet talked about 3 daughhters of Allah, then realised he was misled by satan and took them out- have I got that right?
 
Re: Prove that the Quran Is not the word of God.

I will tell you why, for me, (to a moral certainty) the Quran is not God’s word.

It disagrees with God’s earlier words and laws with out any explainable reason.

Four examples:

#1Adulters under the Biblical Law are to be stoned. Islam teaches that one of the reasons it was revealed was to lead people back to the Biblical Law.
#2 Folks having relations with animals are to be killed along with the animal. It is repeated several times in the Bible. Islam disagrees with God’s earlier word on that with no logical reason why.
The old saw about “well your Bible is just corrupted and the original didn’t say that falls flat on its face on that one.
#3 Maiming as a punishment is not seen in God’s word (other than in the narrow context of an eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth) before Islam.
#4 Islam records Jesus performing miracles as a child, if they were true why aren’t they recorded in the Bible? What logical arguement can be offered as the ones cited by Islam would have been removed by corrupt men, all the while these same men left all the rest in, both smaller miracles and larger miracles.

It makes no sense.

On a more gray scale, I don’t understand how if Jesus was just a prophet, and Islam had a better prophet, why don’t we see Muhammad’s apostles doing as Jesus’ apostles doing?

Where are all the blind and lame that were healed? Where their signs and wonders? Where are the multitudes that were miraculously fed.

Any arguement offered in favor of Islam being true can almost to the letter is offered as an arguement by the Mormons. I highly doubt you would find their arguements very convincing.

Thanks
Nimrod
 
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Re: Prove that the Quran Is not the word of God.

Irsha, abrogate means to void or to do away with, to remove or to end.

Thanks
Nimrod
 
Re: Prove that the Quran Is not the word of God.

irsha said:
What does "abrogated" mean?
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You can read about the Qur'anic doctrine of abrogation under point 2 here:
http://www.load-islam.com/C/rebuttals/Abrogation_and_the_Unalterable_Word_of_God/

I do not understand, were there parts of the koran removed? I heard somewhere that the prophet talked about 3 women doughters of Allah or something- is this true? Are they the "satanic verses" that that salmon rushdie talked about?, The story, I think- I am doing this from memory (but I haven't read his book, so I am not sure where I heard this)- is that the prophet talked about 3 daughhters of Allah, then realised he was misled by satan and took them out- have I got that right?
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The 'satanic verses' allegation is a complete fabrication; read the details here:
http://www.islamicboard.com/refutations/880-alleged-satanic-verses.html

Regards
 
Re: Prove that the Quran Is not the word of God.

Hi Nimrod,
Thanks for your post.
nimrod said:
It disagrees with God’s earlier words and laws with out any explainable reason.
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This, in itself, does not prove anything. If scripture A disagrees with scripture B, A could be right and B wrong, B could be rigth and A wrong, or both could be wrong. It is the concept itself that must be examined.

#4 Islam records Jesus performing miracles as a child, if they were true why aren’t they recorded in the Bible?
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Let us be specific - do you mean why they are not include in the four gospels?
On a more gray scale, I don’t understand how if Jesus was just a prophet, and Islam had a better prophet, why don’t we see Muhammad’s apostles doing as Jesus’ apostles doing?
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Define an apostle first.

Any arguement offered in favor of Islam being true can almost to the letter is offered as an arguement by the Mormons
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To make such a statement one would have to know the Islamic arguments. If you want to know mine, see the companion thread to this thread:
http://www.islamicboard.com/comparative-religion/13998-prove-quran-word-god.html

Regards
 

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