Prove that the Qur'an is NOT the word of God.

[HeiGou]

Re: Prove that the Quran Is not the word of God.

>deletions<
Then theres prophecies of Muhammed PBUH in all the other world scriptures, he's mentioned by name in the Hindu scriptures at least on three occasions as the final prophet. how could that be, thers no history of any tampering by muslims of the hindu scriptures, yet there are numerous clear prophecies. I'll just post one below, i'd like to see comments on it
>deletions<
He's also mentioned in the Bible, OT and NT. www.irf.net/irf/comparativereligion/index.htm You can say they are all vague, but its too much of a coincidence when you look at it with a clear perspective. There are even prophecies in Buddhist and Zorastian scriptures

Actually, technically, Muslims say that he is mentioned in Hindu and Jewish and Christian and Buddhist and Zoroastrian scriptures. You may have noticed that the vast majority of believers in those religions do not find this claim at all convincing. And why would they?

 

[renak]

Re: Prove that the Quran Is not the word of God.

I disagree
I don't believe i've used just faith. Back when i wasn't quite practicing islam, it just hit me that i'm a muslim who believes only islam is the right religion, and i thought to myself how can i be sure, what if i wasn't born a muslim, so i searched for these proofs. There are so many, just look at the Qur'an

Perhaps when I finish reading the Quran my opinion will change.

 

[------]

Re: Prove that the Quran Is not the word of God.

Perhaps...:? Most definitely I would say.

 

[Mohsin]

Re: Prove that the Quran Is not the word of God.

Actually, technically, Muslims say that he is mentioned in Hindu and Jewish and Christian and Buddhist and Zoroastrian scriptures. You may have noticed that the vast majority of believers in those religions do not find this claim at all convincing. And why would they?

Have you read the prophecy i posted. I don't know a single Hindu who refuses to believe he's mentioned in their scriptures, its quite clear. Like i said, they believe its been tampered with, even though theres not a shred of evidence of any muslim ever gathering and burning old copies of the Vedas and Puranas, and then compiling new versions. There would have been riots.
Anyway, i think there are thousands who have seen the true way and then reverted, so obviously they are no longer hindu/buddhist/christian etc. So there are several that have seen the true way.
Even still, people who refuse to believe, it comes as no great suprise. If you were to read the qur'an or even the OT, you will see that when Prophets went to their people with clear miracles they still rejected, just look at jesus PBUH to the Jews, he showed them clear miracles yet they still rejected. people don't want to change their ways, they are far too happy to live the way they are living, people think "My forefathers and family have all believed in this" and this blinds their thinking.

 

[Mohsin]

Re: Prove that the Quran Is not the word of God.

Perhaps...:? Most definitely I would say.

Remember only God can guide

 

[al-fateh]

Rotation Of Sun And Moon

ROTATION OF SUN AND MOON

Today we know that the Moon revolves around the earth in approximately 29.5 days. The sun also revolves in its own orbit. To understand the sun’s orbit, Dr. Bucaille says that the position of the sun in our galaxy must be considered, and we must therefore call on modern scientific ideas (The Bible, the Quran and Science, p. 162).

Our galaxy, the milky way galaxy, includes one hundred billion stars situated in such a formation that the galaxy is shaped like a disc. This disc turns around its center like a gramophone record. Now, it is obvious that when a gramophone record turns, any point on the disc would move around and come back to its original position. Similarly, every star in the galaxy moves as the galaxy rotates on its axis. Therefore the stars that are away from the center of the galaxy orbit around the axis. The sun is one of those stars.

Dr. Bucaille explains that modern science has worked out the details of the sun’s orbit as follows:

“To complete one revolution on its own axis, the galaxy and the sun take roughly 250 million years. The sun travels roughly 150 miles per second in the completion of this” (The Bible, the Quran and Science, p. 162).

After describing this, Dr. Bucaille comments:

“The above is the orbital movement of the sun that was already referred to in the Quran fourteen centuries ago.” (The Bible, the Quran and Science, p. 162)

And yet this is a new finding. As Dr. Bucaille says, the knowledge of the sun’s orbit is an acquisition of modern astronomy (The Bible, the Quran and Science, p. 162).

Two verses in the Quran refer to the orbits of the sun and moon. After mentioning the sun and the moon, Allah says:

“Each one is traveling in an orbit with its own motion” (Quran, 21:33; 36:40).

Even after the Quran was revealed, early commentators could not conceive of the orbits of the sun and moon. The tenth century commentator Tabari could not explain this so he said, “It is our duty to keep silent when we do not know” (XVII, 15 quoted in The Bible, the Quran and Science, p. 161).

Dr. Bucaille comments:

“This shows just how incapable men were of understanding this concept of the sun’s and moon’s orbit.” (The Bible, the Quran and Science, p. 161).

From this it is clear that if the Quran was here expressing an idea already known to the people, the commentators would have easily understood it. But this, as Dr. Bucaille explains was “a new concept that was not to be explained until centuries later” (The Bible, the Quran and Science, p. 161)

This confirms what Allah said to his prophet, on whom be peace:

“This is of the tidings of the Unseen which we inspire in you (Muhammad). Neither you nor your people knew it before this” (Quran 11:49).

The above information was extracted from Islamic Information and Dawah Centre Website (islaminfo.com)

source: www.myislamweb.com

 

[irsha]

Re: Prove that the Quran Is not the word of God.

How can you say the koran is unchanged, when the earliest copy in existence was written at least 100 years after mohummed died?

Read this, and even though I know you will say its just an anti-Islamic page, see if you can meet the challenge of coming up with an earlier version?

---

 

[Skillganon]

Re: Prove that the Quran Is not the word of God.

How can you say the koran is unchanged, when the earliest copy in existence was written at least 100 years after mohummed died?

Read this, and even though I know you will say its just an anti-Islamic page, see if you can meet the challenge of coming up with an earlier version?

---

I think you maybe confusing earliest copy available with earliest scripture written down, or compiled.

 

[irsha]

Re: Prove that the Quran Is not the word of God.

So, you can tell me where there is an earlier copy?

 

[Skillganon]

Re: Prove that the Quran Is not the word of God.

So, you can tell me where there is an earlier copy?

Go and buy a Quran! It is the Copy of the earlier one!

 

[Ansar Al-'Adl]

Re: Prove that the Quran Is not the word of God.

How can you say the koran is unchanged, when the earliest copy in existence was written at least 100 years after mohummed died?

My Response:
1. The earliest copy was not written 100 years after Muhammad pbuh died. The Prophet Muhammad pbuh had 65 companions who functioned as scribes for him (names are listed in The History of the Qur'anic Text M. M. Al-Azami, p. 68). Based on all the evidence, the researchers have concluded that in [the Prophet's] own lifetime, the entire Qur'an was available in written form. (Op. cit. p. 69). This was established by classical scholars as well, as mentioned by Al-Khattabi (As-Suyuti, Al-Itqan, i:164).


2. As for what manuscripts have survived till today, the site you referenced is not correct in saying that Even the earliest fragmentary manuscripts of the Koran are all dated no earlier than 100 years after Muhammad died. This is quote simply false. From the Islamic-Awareness site:

There exist at least four Qur'anic manuscripts that are dated to first half of the first century of hijra (i.e., before 50 AH / 670 CE). These are not the `Uthmanic Qur'ans and are parchments written in the hijazi script.

Surah al-`Imran. Verses number : End of verse 45 to 54 and part of 55, Memory Of The World: San`a' Manuscripts, CD-ROM Presentation, UNESCO.

A Qur'anic Manuscript From 1st Century Hijra: Part Of Surah al-Sajda And Surah al-Ahzab, This manuscript from San`a' is dated to first half of the first century of hijra by Hans-Casper Graf von Bothmer.

Surah al-Shura, Surah al-Zukhruf. Verses number : End of verse 49 of Surah al-Shura to verse 31 of Surah al-Zukhruf and part of 32, Memory Of The World: San`a' Manuscripts, CD-ROM Presentation, UNESCO.

Lot No. 12-6428 (Islamic Art & Manuscripts): Surah al-Baqarah. Verses number: 277-282 (recto) 282-286 (verso). Christie's of London auctioned this manuscript to an unknown bidder in 2001. (SOURCE)​

So the site is just plain wrong and anyone who had studied even a little bit of the Qur'anic sciences should have picked up that mistake. Naturally, someone only interested in finding anti-islamic material to copy, wouldn't.

3. There is also a fallacy that you are guilty of which the site you referenced does not make. You added to the site's challenge and attempted to turn it into evidence against the Qur'an's preservation. Well, that simply doesn't work because if someone transcribes ancient scripts, that doesn't mean that the book can no longer be considered unchanged. Ancient manuscripts rarely survive for long periods of time. You are supposed to make new copies of the old scripts before they wear out instead of only relying on ancient copies. So even to make a claim that this would mean the Qur'an has been changed is inherently false.

4. Articulate arguments yourself; don't paste anti-islamic links.

5. If you have a serious interest in this topic, the I suggest you read the decisive refutation of all claims against the Qur'an's preservation:
http://shop.store.yahoo.com/islamicbookstore-com/b7626.html

Regards

 

[irsha]

Re: Prove that the Quran Is not the word of God.

My Response:
1. The earliest copy was not written 100 years after Muhammad pbuh died. The Prophet Muhammad pbuh had 65 companions who functioned as scribes for him (names are listed in The History of the Qur'anic Text M. M. Al-Azami, p. 68). Based on all the evidence, the researchers have concluded that in [the Prophet's] own lifetime, the entire Qur'an was available in written form. (Op. cit. p. 69). This was established by classical scholars as well, as mentioned by Al-Khattabi (As-Suyuti, Al-Itqan, i:164).


2. As for what manuscripts have survived till today, the site you referenced is not correct in saying that Even the earliest fragmentary manuscripts of the Koran are all dated no earlier than 100 years after Muhammad died. This is quote simply false. From the Islamic-Awareness site:

There exist at least four Qur'anic manuscripts that are dated to first half of the first century of hijra (i.e., before 50 AH / 670 CE). These are not the `Uthmanic Qur'ans and are parchments written in the hijazi script.

Surah al-`Imran. Verses number : End of verse 45 to 54 and part of 55, Memory Of The World: San`a' Manuscripts, CD-ROM Presentation, UNESCO.

A Qur'anic Manuscript From 1st Century Hijra: Part Of Surah al-Sajda And Surah al-Ahzab, This manuscript from San`a' is dated to first half of the first century of hijra by Hans-Casper Graf von Bothmer.

Surah al-Shura, Surah al-Zukhruf. Verses number : End of verse 49 of Surah al-Shura to verse 31 of Surah al-Zukhruf and part of 32, Memory Of The World: San`a' Manuscripts, CD-ROM Presentation, UNESCO.

Lot No. 12-6428 (Islamic Art & Manuscripts): Surah al-Baqarah. Verses number: 277-282 (recto) 282-286 (verso). Christie's of London auctioned this manuscript to an unknown bidder in 2001. (SOURCE)​

So the site is just plain wrong and anyone who had studied even a little bit of the Qur'anic sciences should have picked up that mistake. Naturally, someone only interested in finding anti-islamic material to copy, wouldn't.

3. There is also a fallacy that you are guilty of which the site you referenced does not make. You added to the site's challenge and attempted to turn it into evidence against the Qur'an's preservation. Well, that simply doesn't work because if someone transcribes ancient scripts, that doesn't mean that the book can no longer be considered unchanged. Ancient manuscripts rarely survive for long periods of time. You are supposed to make new copies of the old scripts before they wear out instead of only relying on ancient copies. So even to make a claim that this would mean the Qur'an has been changed is inherently false.

4. Articulate arguments yourself; don't paste anti-islamic links.

5. If you have a serious interest in this topic, the I suggest you read the decisive refutation of all claims against the Qur'an's preservation:
http://shop.store.yahoo.com/islamicbookstore-com/b7626.html

Regards

Listen, I just posted that link to save time and space here. If you don't want links, I suggest you ban them for all members. But, I doubt you will do that, you just wanted to pick on me again.
My "argument" is that unless you have an original copy, it is impossible to argue that subsequet copies are unchanged. The argument holds true- If I tok someone to court for plagiarism, I would have to produce an original of my work for comparrison.

 

[Ansar Al-'Adl]

Re: Prove that the Quran Is not the word of God.

Listen, I just posted that link to save time and space here.

That would be convenient for someone who has not done the research and knows absolutely nothing about Qur'anic sciences, wouldn't it?

If you don't want links, I suggest you ban them for all members.

Read the forum rules, #23:
http://www.islamicboard.com/faq/forum-rules/#faq_liforum_rules
It says in plain english that anti-islamic links are not allowed. It shouldn't be a problem for an educated person who is able to articulate the arguments themselves. But for someone who is simply willing to throw mud at Islam by scrounging for anti-islamic sites, the rule would naturally be difficult.

My "argument" is that unless you have an original copy

I've already answered your argument. Respond to what I wrote, don't simply restate it.

 

[Mohsin]

Re: Prove that the Quran Is not the word of God.

Ignore Message

 

[j4763]

Re: Prove that the Quran Is not the word of God.

So Allah told Mohammed what to write in the Quran and Mohammed then told the 60 odd followers of his to write it down (because he was illiterate). So imo it was the word of Mohammed in the Quran and not of Allah’s.

If Allah had told the followers what to write and not gone through Mohammad then it would be the word of god (as long as they didn’t change anything as they wrote).

 

[------]

Re: Prove that the Quran Is not the word of God.

How can you say the koran is unchanged, when the earliest copy in existence was written at least 100 years after mohummed died?

We can say it mate. Trust me. I give you 150% assurance it has not been changed.

 

[------]

Re: Prove that the Quran Is not the word of God.

So Allah told Mohammed what to write in the Quran and Mohammed then told the 60 odd followers of his to write it down (because he was illiterate). So imo it was the word of Mohammed in the Quran and not of Allah’s.

If Allah had told the followers what to write and not gone through Mohammad then it would be the word of god (as long as they didn’t change anything as they wrote).

No no no no! :heated:

Allah REVEALED the Qur'an to Muhammad (saw), Muhammad (saw) didn't write it from his own words :rollseyes

 

[j4763]

Re: Prove that the Quran Is not the word of God.

Ain't that a quote from one of tupac's (2Pac) raps/songs ;D

 

[------]

Re: Prove that the Quran Is not the word of God.

I don't listen to songs. And even if it is, I don't know, I only write what comes to me.

P.S. Dnt change the topic

 

[Mohsin]

Re: Prove that the Quran Is not the word of God.

So Allah told Mohammed what to write in the Quran and Mohammed then told the 60 odd followers of his to write it down (because he was illiterate). So imo it was the word of Mohammed in the Quran and not of Allah’s.

If Allah had told the followers what to write and not gone through Mohammad then it would be the word of god (as long as they didn’t change anything as they wrote).

If God revealed something to the prophet PBUH, and he transmitted the exact same message to the companions, then it is still the work of God, not of Muhammed, he is simply the messenger.
So it remains the wod of God