Truth= god does not exist?

[جوري]

I am yet to see anything in creation no matter how small, show absence of detail. I can't imagine how that could come about by itself?
I don't see how your body can know when to start glycolysis, or krebs Cycle, or gluconeogensis, or urea cycle, I don't know how it can know that the urea cycle shouldn't have an inhibiting factor and should go on all the time as to not have nitrogenous waste products build in your system. I don't see how your kidneys know not to add one extra hydrogen during filtration/excretion so that you are not peeing out pure sulphuric acid. I don't know how the sun can know to rise from the east and set from the west. I don't know how a humming bird has a flower to fit its size beak. I don't know how an amoeba senses fear (it happens when you try to add ink to it to visualize it better under a microscope)-- I don't how cells in the pretectal area supply both Edinger-Westphal nuclei so that shinning a light in one eye can cause constriction in both, I don't see how all this can happen everyday seemingly on its own volition. without someone governing it-- It is too great.

I can't classify any of it short of a miracle. When you think of how anarchy can go on to any place neglected, just naturally in any place that isn't governed and contrast it to that which goes right everyday-- literally and figuratively miracles that we take for granted. If nature came to be on its own, why the need for such intricacies and perfection? why not just be for function? A matter of what is needed for survival not visual attraction?

None of us here who believe in God claim we know the answers to anything other than that the one who created is great, and for things to be of this caliber he must be truly sophisticated, truly just, truly beautiful. A masterful engineer, a masterful artist, a masterful healer, a masterful physicist, there isn't an area in this universe that lacks pure perfection...How can we turn our face from it? How can we not contemplate and reflect upon it?

Those of us who worship simply don't take any of it for granted. We are grateful for it. Thank you God for all you have given and continue to give and for the gift of Guidance and religion (Islam).
Ameen

 

[Trumble]

If God existed for all time or came to be without a creator, why can't something more simple like the universe come to be without a creator?

Undeniably a very strong argument, to which no theist ever seems able to come up with an even vaguely satisfactory answer.

It's easy to understand the perception that things such as complex biochemical systems could not have come about by chance, but the introduction of God as a 'watchmaker' only enhances the problem, not solves it. As you say, why does the universe require a creator while God does not? Ultimately something must have come into being without a creative intelligence behind it, so surely common sense, or at at least Occam's law, dictates that thing should be a simple as possible, not as complex as possible?

 

[Nσσя'υℓ Jαииαн]

Because God is not creation. Creation is finite not infinite.
God not being Himself created is what makes Him unique.

 

[GARY]

The question that cannot be answered. God cannot be proven.
You either believe or you don't.

 

[جوري]

Undeniably a very strong argument, to which no theist ever seems able to come up with an even vaguely satisfactory answer.

It's easy to understand the perception that things such as complex biochemical systems could not have come about by chance, but the introduction of God as a 'watchmaker' only enhances the problem, not solves it. As you say, why does the universe require a creator while God does not? Ultimately something must have come into being without a creative intelligence behind it, so surely common sense, or at at least Occam's law, dictates that thing should be a simple as possible, not as complex as possible?

whatever "satisfactory" answers you come up with to foster your life style is ok with us... According to your own conclusion though God is a much simpler answer than things came to be on their own with all that, that would entail -- which is neither satisfactory scientifically nor spiritually.

 

[Trumble]

According to your own conclusion though God is a much simpler answer than things came to be on their own with all that, that would entail -- which is neither satisfactory scientifically nor spiritually.

In that context God is a 'simplistic' answer rather than a 'simple' one. With the properties ascribed to Him, there can be nothing more complex than God, including everything He is supposed to have created.

whatever "satisfactory" answers you come up with to foster your life style is ok with us...

I'm sure it is, but surely it's up to you to provide that answer to this particular question and not me? As I said unless an answer to "who or what created God" can be provided the "watchmaker" argument regarding the rest of creation is impotent. It has one fundamental premise based purely on faith, which Tayyaba set out quite nicely, a premise that completely begs the question. You are arguing that God exists using the assumption that He does.

 

[Nσσя'υℓ Jαииαн]

You are arguing that God doesn't exists using the assumption that He doesn't.
Because the fact that something so complex wouldnt be self created doesnt seem to fit u.

 

[Trumble]

You are arguing that God doesn't exists using the assumption that He doesn't.

No, I am not making any such assumption. All I am saying is that when two explanations both fit the facts the simpler (not 'simplistic'!) explanation is usually preferred.

We seem to have a choice, either that the universe and everything in it has either always existed or was created without a guiding intelligence, or that God was. As God must be more complex than what He is supposed to have created, i.e everything else, then the simpler explanation is that it was everything else has either always existed, or came into being without a guiding intelligence, and not God. That way there is no need to bring the most complex concept, God, into the equation at all. There is only one reason to accept the more complex answer, faith.

 

[جوري]

In that context God is a 'simplistic' answer rather than a 'simple' one. With the properties ascribed to Him, there can be nothing more complex than God, including everything He is supposed to have created..

This is what we call semantics.......... but I will agree with the latter half of that argument!

I'm sure it is, but surely it's up to you to provide that answer to this particular question and not me? As I said unless an answer to "who or what created God" can be provided the "watchmaker" argument regarding the rest of creation is impotent. It has one fundamental premise based purely on faith, which Tayyaba set out quite nicely, a premise that completely begs the question. You are arguing that God exists using the assumption that He does.

I am not here to provide you or any other member with any answers. I promise you nothing would give me greater pleasure than to turn off my computer and address the pile of work I have awaiting me, seems however every time I check my email there is something of LI awaiting--- nor was it I who ascribed the Quality of "watchmaker" to God it is jejune and disrespectful.... and was used by only your person........... a
watch·mak·er
Pronunciation: -"mA-k&r
Function: noun
: one that makes or repairs watches or clocks
even in a mataphorical sense it is not befitting.....
I am not using assumptions. I am using what to me and other theists is very logical. at least the same quality of logic that you ascribe to the universe having come on its own....
Peace!

 

[Trumble]

I meant 'you' in the context of theists in general, not you personally! :happy:

 

[Malaikah]

Re: Response to 'Truth=God don't exist'

It is a false statement. Given infinite time that either happened prior to the universe coming to be or that the universe has existed, the probability of the universe isn't 0. It is 1 (ie bound to happen).

Moreover, what is more unlikely? The universe existing or coming to be or a much more complex entity exiting or coming to be and then creating the universe?

His reply:

actually that is wrong.

He's assuming the universe existed for infinite time which isn't true. (So the probability of it coming to existance out of nothing is zero, because of fact it's not infinite!, And a probability density function wouldn't only take that event into consideration, if you take into consideration every other crazy event (like for xample amino acdids surviving cosmic rays pounding it day in day out for thousands (probably millions?) of years, plus every other thing like natural selection etc.. the function decays to zero way faster than inverse quadratic or watever u can think of).

Secondly, He said

"Moreover, what is more unlikely? The universe existing or coming to be or a much more complex entity exiting or coming to be and then creating the universe?"

Actually, the question to ask is "Which is more unlikely, a complex entity like the universe comign to be without a control system, or it coming out of no where".

We all know that for even for the simplest mechanism there has to be a control system (Otherwise if there where alternative ways to come up with things, why would scientistis/engieners make it such a fundamental thing?). For everything there's cause and effect, what makes the creation of the unievser an exception? The fact that the universe didn't exist for an infinite period of time just makes that even more factual.

Just a little on the side analogy that's relevent to the topic... suppose you create an artificial world on computer (e.g. using massive (tm) artificial intelligence software), the dimensions your little creations exist are completely different to the realm you're in, they live within a different time domain, even what the agents "percieve" to be 3D is different to the 3 dimensions you physically live in... You know for fact that you're the initiator of the universe, these AI agents can't perceive, see, hear talk to you (coz das just how you've created the system), does that mean you don't exist? just because they can't see you?

Our example is similar to that with respect to Allah, the only difference is that we have been given a better degree of intelligence to figure for ourselves that there needs to be a power behind all this. Systems tend towards disorder, not order. That's entropy. Unless there's some control system behidn it all.

 

[Pygoscelis]

Who are you quoting?

THe quote about probability appears to be taken out of context and I can't really tell what the writer is trying to say. Out of its context it isn't coherent.

The AI example is interesting but pointless. It assumes you are the creator and then asks if you are the creator. Just because an etity could create another without the other's knowledge doesn't mean that all etities were created by another. He's only seems to be saying that it is possible that our world was created by some outside force, which I don't think anybody here is disputing. Makes no reference to Gods, maybe he's talking about aliens?

You could just as easily say "Imagine that by some freak occurence you turn into an unseeable unhearable ghost. You walk amongst your friends and they can't see you. They can't hear you. They can't talk to you. Does that mean you don't exist?"

Maybe we were planted here by space men. Maybe a God made us. Maybe we've always been. The fact of the matter is we simply do not know and there is no way to be sure.

That being said, the more specific your claim about the origin of the universe the more likely you are to be wrong. The more attributes you assign to your God the more likely the God you envision doesn't exist.

 

[Grace Seeker]

Surely they COULD have other labels, and probably better ones. I only speak of good and bad because that is the language given to me. Those labels were not chosen by me but by the society in which I reside. I would prefer to speak in terms of socially constructive and socially destructive and in terms of social taboos, but not may people will get where I'm coming from and fewer still will want to change their language.

So, does this mean that in your mind that there are not moral good and bads, no right, no wrong?


How do you feel about the war in Iraq? If there is no right, nor wrong, then what difference does it make one way or the other unless of course it is your life that is in peril?

 

[Malaikah]

Who are you quoting?

A member of this forum, lolwatever (yes, thats his username lol). He had his account disabled until he finishes exams because he is hooked to the forum, however he just cant stay away and is asking me to post in this thread for him.

 

[------]

So, does this mean that in your mind that there are not moral good and bads, no right, no wrong?

Elaborate please.

 

[shanu]

Dear No God,
If God is the creatort. He has to know the creation just like the back of his hand right? So well first pls take ur time to read the website below which shows bopth Quran references and scietifice refrences side by side.

N yes we believe in the Big bang theory too, in fact it was writeen in the Quran

Let me write u the website brother
www.islam-guide.com
Enjoy reading. N decide ur self if God exists or nt.

Assalamu alaikum (Peace be upon u)

 

[Salmaan]

How do you disbelieve in Allah!!!




How do you disbelieve in Allah, seeing that you were dead and He gave you life! Then He will cause you to die, then He will give you life, then unto Him you will return. [Al Qur'an (2:28)]

How do you disbelieve in Allah! How do you commit this act of kufr? How do you cover up this reality (the reality of Allah), seeing that you were dead - you were lifeless, not existing, not known or mentioned - and He gave you life?

How do you disbelieve in Allah! How with unlimited number of question marks and exclamation marks. This statement demonstrates how strange and unnatural this act of kufr (disbelief) is, being aware that one did not exist before and thus ignoring the Cause of existence. How would you disbelieve in the One Who gave you life and will cause you to die? And not only that but will give you life again and then calls you for accountability.

How do you disbelieve in Allah! How do you inflate yourselves with false pride, which is the main key of kufr [1], knowing that you were dead and will certainly go back to that state? Being aware of your beginning and of your end, and seeing that you have no control over both, you are indeed expected to be humble without having one iota of pride. How do you disbelieve in Allah! How come you are unthankful to the One Who endowed you with the bounty of life and what it contains! Who endowed you with the faculties of hearing, seeing and understanding. In fact, humans are completely enveloped by God's favors. Thankfulness is the befitting and expected act from you not kufr (ungratefulness).

When we see an individual treating his or her mother badly, we become astonished and hate that kind of behavior. Surely our astonishment and hatefulness of such behavior increase when we realize the continuous effort of the mother and the care she provides her child with. The action of such individual is clearly a severe act of ungratefulness. And if this is the case, then what about the One Who created us and our mothers, the One Who provides for us and for our mothers? It becomes then clear that the act of ignoring the favors of Allah (glory be to Him) exceeds all limits of injustice and ungratefulness. Ignoring the favors of the Creator is surely a crime beyond description.

In fact, if Allah is not thanked whom else will be thanked? If Allah is not obeyed whom else will be obeyed? And it Allah is not worshiped whom else will be worshiped?

How do you disbelieve in Allah! How do you disbelieve in the One Who is that great (all greatness) and, Who is that able (all ability)! How do you disbelieve in the One Who brought you to existence and Who is to recreate you after death! How do you disbelieve in the One Who owns you fully and nothing happens in the universe except as a result of His will? He is indeed the One to be conscious of and the One to be respected. How do you disbelieve in the One Whom you will return to for accountability and there is no escape from meeting Him?

Allah is indeed our Owner. We are His property. A property that is completely dependent and is disparately in need of its Owner. And an Owner Who is in no need to His property and His property does not in any way increase His unlimited richness.

How do you disbelieve in Allah! How do you deny the resurrection and accountability, knowing that you were dead and Allah gave you life? It is extremely ignorant to doubt the ability of Allah (glory be to Him) - the One Who originated you to give you life again. And it is also foolish to ignore the seriousness and purposefulness that is ingrained in creation that strongly point out towards eventual accountability.

How do you disbelieve in Allah! How do you commit shirk (worshiping others with Allah or giving the attributes of Allah to others), which is one of the severest forms of kufr, whereas Allah is the only One Who gave you life, the only One that will cause you to die then live again, and the only One that will bring you for full accountability.

The Prophet (peace be upon him) defined shirk saying- "That you make somebody or something similar to Allah, while He created you." In the Qur'an Allah (glory be to Him) says: "Yet they ascribe as partners unto Him the jinn . Although He did create them, they falsely, having no knowledge, attributed to Him sons and daughters. Glorified be He and exalted above (all) that, they ascribe (unto Him)," 6:100. We notice here, in the Qur'anic verse and the Prophet's saying, the exclamation about the act of giving the attributes of Allah or describing Him in human terms (attributing to Allah human qualities), while Allah is the Only Creator.

How do you disbelieve in Allah! How do you deny the existence of the Creator, while you are created and surely you have not created yourselves? Also nothingness can not be the Cause of your existence. How do you deny the Cause of your existence? It is like a machine denying the existence of its maker and not obeying his or her commands.

It the universe and what it contains is not enough for any sane individual, proving the existence of the Creator, then there are only two possibilities. First, the individual's mind is not functioning right, which means that the individual's faculty of understanding is shielded by various desires and self interest. The second possibility is that there is a problem of conception. If the individual views God, for example, as a trinity or as a white bearded being located at one of the far planets or stars, then how would one prove the existence of such being!

In reality Atheism (denying the existence of God) grows and flourishes in environments or situations where wrong beliefs are being inherited or adopted. In a society where mysticism, for example, is prevalent and being practiced one would certainly find people reacting properly or improperly to such nonsense, going to various directions like Atheism, Agnosticism or rarely the correct belief and understanding.

At times one hears some Muslims talking about the difficulty to prove the existence of God which is indeed unexpected and saddening. This kind of claim should only come from people following and promoting other belief systems that are not based on understanding and evidence. This is because if such people prove the existence of God logically, they would be unable to continue this process for unproven illogical other aspects, like for example, the trinity or the attributes claimed to be acquired by the so called saints.

Proving the existence of God is so simple to demonstrate and understand. One does not need to have a special experience, study or training. What is needed is simply the life experience of being here surrounded with the universe and its components (including humans and their life supporting systems).

Some people also claim that the belief in God is something internal; that is based on one's internal feelings. Surely the human nature, the built-in nature (the Fitrah), is a factor in the individual confirmation of the existence of God, but it is certainly not the only evidence. Furthermore, the human's built-in nature can be covered up with all kinds of whims and desires and thus becomes unable to function property. Therefore, depending on the inner feelings as the sole factor of proving the existence of God is clearly erroneous.

What can be said here is that the Fitrah, the uncorrupted built-in nature of the human, resonates happily with the Truth. It resonates greatly with the overwhelming evidence proving the existence of the Creator and describing His unimaginable great attributes.

[1] Al Qur'an, 40:35, 40:56.

 

[Kidman]

Re: Truth= god does not exsist!

There are no 'scientific facts' in the Qur'an. All there are are a few statements that might be associated with them if you have faith such an association exists.

One example, the "seven regular heavens" thing. Firstly, that didn't even originate with the Qur'an.. virtually every other religion uses seven in that context from Christianity to Buddhism. Secondly, in scientific terms there are no discrete seven layers. Troposphere, Ozonosphere etc. are just labels for convenience to describe what are gradual changes in property. Depending on how precise scientists wanted to be they could have named as many zones and sub-zones as they liked, 3, 9, 27, or whatever. And of course when you think of "heavens" it's quite a step from that to layers of the atmosphere anyway - is that really what was meant in the Qur'an? In the other traditions it is 'real' heavens being talked about, equatable perhaps to worlds, other dimensions, or even degrees of spiritual advancement. A bit more likely than high school science, maybe?

No miracle. As you say, you believe what you want to believe. All the rest of the 'miracles' can be explained in much the same way.

Umm... as far as scientific facts go... the seven heaven's thing is actually one of the weaker ones. Maybe you should do some research on this also, about what the quran says about the pregnancy of a woman, or the separation between different bodies of waters.

Also, on top of that, the Quran basically says that if you think the Quran is flawed, then come up with one Surah (verse) like it (matching the elequence of speech and depth of meaning), and even if all of mankind tries to come up with anything similar, it will not succeed. So, how can somebody, who cannot read or write, come up with such a book of elequence poetry and arabic, that till this day nobody can even match a verse like it?

Now, i know you will say "trying to match a verse of the Quran is possible, it's just that the muslims will not believe it is as high of standards since they believe the Quran is the word of God and will hold that higher than any other verse anybody else brings." But that is not true either... if somebody brought about such a book that goes into depth, and is uses the expression and words the quran uses (the arabic language is very deep, and it is very hard to explain), but then that will all over the news, since it would be proof that the quran is a fake, but till this day this has not have happened.

Kidman

 

[Pygoscelis]

So, does this mean that in your mind that there are not moral good and bads, no right, no wrong?

In a sense I believe in right and wrong, but not in the religious meanings of the words. Right and Wrong, Good and Evil, are not things that exist on their own in isolation, they need context. "Right" to me means socially constructive or positive and life enriching. "Wrong" means socially destructive and life destroying. This is hard for me to explain.

How do you feel about the war in Iraq?

I think its a travesty and a completely unecesary one at that. Nobody gains from this and it hurts so many. It is truly sad.

If there is no right, nor wrong, then what difference does it make one way or the other unless of course it is your life that is in peril?

I feel empathy for those who are hurt and outrage at those who have caused the situation. You don't need a sense of Good and Evil to feel these things.

 

[Malaikah]

From lolwatever:

THe quote about probability appears to be taken out of context and I can't really tell what the writer is trying to say. Out of its context it isn't coherent.

Ok... i'll simplify...

Probability of universe coming into existance out of non existance (It's not somethign that existed for ifninity) by coincidence is very very very low, multiply that by the probability of the big bang causing the existance of advanced natural systems ( e.g. just take life on earth for an example).... it's like the probability of spilling of 10 randomly colored paint buckets and beleiving that by coincidence you'll get a painting of monolisa formed lol.

That's just to simplify things... if you just take a look at evolution alone and take a look at the probability of proteins being formed under the conditions they had to with stand for thousands of years... it's so low its zero.

What i'm sayign here is.. Nogod's statement

world came to be by mere chance and probability

is just insane.

There must have been a control system. Really it's irrelevent whether you think it's an "alien" or whatever that came up with it. The point is, It didn't come out of no where without any engineering or plan behind it.

If you take the above situation and then consider that there was a superior being (really whether you call it God or alien or whatever for now isn't important, we beleive it's Allah) who isn't restricted by the limiations we have... it makes full sense that anything could have occurred, and based on probability.. ofcourse, a creator who is with the descriptiosn we ascribe to him can do anything and everything... including making order out of chaos.

The AI example is interesting but pointless. It assumes you are the creator and then asks if you are the creator.

No, it's nto assumign.. i'm saying.. it's an experiemtn you can do for yourself.

You create a world, you know that you're the creator, as far as the AI agents are concerned, you're beyond their imagination, you're not restricted by their time/spatial domains. Just because they cant prove you exist doesn't mean you don't.

But suppose you could give those agents same intellect we have.. (so elt's assume for a moment we're stuck in that mini universe), based on what we see around us, we learn that there's cause and effect.. there's a cause behind everything, wouldn't it make sense to realise there must have been a creator of this entire system? A creator that's not limited by the dimension's by which wer'e bound ( e.g. space/time)?

Regardless of what you think created it, the question is.. do you agree there must be an entity that's outside of our bousdn that created/caused all this?!

After that... we can sit n discuss whether Allah is this creator that we agree created all this. And the proof for that would also be somethign to do with probability (i mean suppose i wanna prove to my little AI agents that i'm the creator, - suppose for a moment they have intellect like us - ) and so i send them prophets with mriacles which defy the natural process fo things that i setup (afterall i can do watever i want i can destroy/make do watever i please).... and these prophets i send there tell those other AI agents "look.. the creator otu there is showing you guys these miraclse which non of you can reproduce, and he's sent a message to you people, so what makes you gusy reject it"... But this paragraph coems after we agree on the question at the end of the above paragraph.

Just because an etity could create another without the other's knowledge doesn't mean that all etities were created by another. He's only seems to be saying that it is possible that our world was created by some outside force, which I don't think anybody here is disputing. Makes no reference to Gods, maybe he's talking about aliens?

I made it clear, we can only discuss god once you agree that there is a creator, and then we can argue why God is a creator.. he's sent us signs and challenges that no one has defied successfully. So why would we reject somethign that makes sense to us.

You could just as easily say "Imagine that by some freak occurence you turn into an unseeable unhearable ghost. You walk amongst your friends and they can't see you. They can't hear you. They can't talk to you. Does that mean you don't exist?"

huh? i dont get wat u mean by that...

Maybe we were planted here by space men. Maybe a God made us. Maybe we've always been. The fact of the matter is we simply do not know and there is no way to be sure.

The first two are atleast logical, the third one is just false, this universe hasn't been around for an infinite period of time, and we know that life definately hasn't "always been". Discussion about God can only come once you agree taht somethign created us... to suggest that nothign created us makes the discussion about god pointless.

I hope you understand that we havnt always been... universe and life has been around for a finite period of time.. so does that mean you now agree one of the first two options are logical to choose from?

That being said, the more specific your claim about the origin of the universe the more likely you are to be wrong. The more attributes you assign to your God the more likely the God you envision doesn't exist.

Well i hope i made it specific enough to show the above paragraph wrong .

p.s. Regarding my first paragraph.. when i said probability of everythign created otu of nohting is zero... that's because according to what we know, you can't create matter out of nothing.. it defies all conservation laws ever known to man.... so there must be a creator (whatever/whoever you think it is) that is not bounded by these laws, since he himself created them (time, space, conservation of matter etc..)