Truth= god does not exist?

[Woodrow]

Just a thought.

Although there is difference in opinion about the age of the universe. Everybody seems to be in agreement all matter is the same age, whatever that may be.

The length of time the universe has been in existance is a very short period of time when compared with eternity. Sufficient time will have elapsed so that if matter can occur sponataeniously it should have happened many times. Enough time has elapsed so that if it had happened even many trillions of light years from us we should be able to detect light from it. the sky should be filled with evidence of matter trillions of light years distance from us.

Unless it is impossible for matter to form on it's own and this really is a one time occurance. To be a one time occurance in violation of the laws of physics, something had to cause it. If it is not in violation of physical laws, it should have happened many times.

 

[Pygoscelis]

If I give you a flat tire because I despise you and your new car but later on come to feel remorse... the appropriate thing to do from a religious stance that I pay you for a new tire or replace your old one

I'd much prefer you bought me a new tire. Your prayer would mean absolutely nothing to me (as a non believer). To me it is just you trying to alleviate yourself of your guilt. You owe me a tire, not a prayer. And all that effort you put into praying could maybe have been instead put into getting me my new tire.

I can't think of one good reason a woman would prositute herself over choosing a dignified life...

Because she doesn't hold the same taboos you do. To some protitution and a dignified life are not mutually exclusive. Just because your culture and/or religion prevent you from seeing the world her way does not mean she sees it your way. Just because you can't think of one good reason why a woman would prostitute herself doesn't mean women don't find such reasons (acceptable to them) and perform sexual services willingly and of their own accord.

I think it is as immoral for an adult woman as it is for a child for exact same reasons. She is a victim and a victimizer as this is the down fall of society as a whole...

I don't understand your point here. How does what she and her customer do effect you or outside society (outside their business room) for the worse?

If people were to follow one of many of their religious obligations set forth by God in the way of giving Alms then there would be no need for a woman to go strip herself to gawking wretched men to put food on the table!

By far the majority of women in the sex industry are not poor. They could get a job outside the industry if they wanted to, but they choose not to. The sex industry pays well and many of the workers in it genuinely enjoy what they do.

 

[Pygoscelis]

Just a thought.

Although there is difference in opinion about the age of the universe. Everybody seems to be in agreement all matter is the same age, whatever that may be.

Interesting thought. Could the universe have come to be piecemeal? Never really thought of that. Could some parts of the universe be older than others? I can't say that's the case, but I can't say it isn't either.

The length of time the universe has been in existance is a very short period of time when compared with eternity.

If the universe has not always existed, then what you say here is true by the definition of the word eternity

Sufficient time will have elapsed so that if matter can occur sponataeniously it should have happened many times.

This is a rather bold claim. How could you know how much time would be required for this to happen, if it could happen?

As I understand it, most of us now conclude the universe had an origin because it is expanding. But that assumes that it has always been expanding, and not gyrating or something.

Anyway, when we get into space and the origin of the universe, I'm quite comfortable in my ignorance. I'm quite happy to say I Don't Know. Even with modern technology some things are still beyond human knowledge.

 

[جوري]

I'd much prefer you bought me a new tire. Your prayer would mean absolutely nothing to me (as a non believer). To me it is just you trying to alleviate yourself of your guilt. You owe me a tire, not a prayer. And all that effort you put into praying could maybe have been instead put into getting me my new tire..

I cannot dignify your selective reading.. as we have all incessantly told you, you pay your dues to the victim. what I do between me and my God is none of your business... we get it you are atheist you don't care for prayers.. chill....

Because she doesn't hold the same taboos you do. To some protitution and a dignified life are not mutually exclusive. Just because your culture and/or religion prevent you from seeing the world her way does not mean she sees it your way. Just because you can't think of one good reason why a woman would prostitute herself doesn't mean women don't find such reasons (acceptable to them) and perform sexual services willingly and of their own accord...

How do you know? you ran any sort of study as to what goes on in the minds of these women, and what drove them to this life style? Some things are universal regardless of culture or religion.. Again what do you know of my background... Maybe I too was an atheist at some point and became Muslim what do you know of the forces that drive me or what values are dear to me and why... you enjoy generalizing.

I don't understand your point here. How does what she and her customer do effect you or outside society (outside their business room) for the worse?

What can I say... it is the same short sight that leads you to atheism I guess... lots goes on outside the bedroom to society as a whole to mention just one... certain reportable diseases that the CDC should be notified of, go unreported and pandemics can start and spread of disease through these portals... Men who frequent brothels are sometimes married or engage with others outside of marriage..... what do you think? I can see how they would be monogmous though to just one prostitute...:rollseyes

By far the majority of women in the sex industry are not poor. They could get a job outside the industry if they wanted to, but they choose not to. The sex industry pays well and many of the workers in it genuinely enjoy what they do.

Yes I rest my case.. selling yourself pays well
Peace!

 

[Trumble]

The length of time the universe has been in existance is a very short period of time when compared with eternity. Sufficient time will have elapsed so that if matter can occur sponataeniously it should have happened many times. Enough time has elapsed so that if it had happened even many trillions of light years from us we should be able to detect light from it. the sky should be filled with evidence of matter trillions of light years distance from us.

Unless it is impossible for matter to form on it's own and this really is a one time occurance. To be a one time occurance in violation of the laws of physics, something had to cause it. If it is not in violation of physical laws, it should have happened many times.

You are assuming that both time and space exist independently of the existence of the universe; something that has seemed very unlikely to cosmologists for some considerable time. In other words, there is no 'eternity' outside that existence or space in which that evidence could exist. The concepts simply make no sense. Neither does that of the existence of 'the laws of physics' outside that universe, come to that; they (or to be precise, what they describe) do not, and cannot have, an independent existence outside of that universe.

In other words, space-time itself is as much a property of the universe as is anything else. There is no need to be concerned about apparent creation of the universe from 'nothing' as there was simply no 'nothing' for it to be created 'in'! Or any 'where' and 'when' for a Creator to exist in beforehand. Even language struggles badly here. Language can only portray concepts which we can grasp and relate to in terms of our experience and, like God if you like, the whole thing is pretty much indescribable. Any word you use, like God or Tao (the Taoists actually probably got closest) is merely a vague approximation or interpretation into terms we can comprehend.

Of course, this is all 'just' theories, and as much philosophical speculation as mathematics and physics. The point is, though, that arguments based essentially on everyday experience can pretty much go out the window when talking about something like the creation of the universe. We simply have no everyday experience that is even vaguely relevant.

 

[Kidman]

Re: Truth= god does not exsist!

that is true however all of the variables that you have preposed are at the very least measurable . tell me then can u in any way present me the dimension of this so called god
good luck on that buddy

Dimension is called faith. I used to be agnostic also, and there is no beating you. You win... you believe what you want to believe.

The thing that caught my attention, was the scientific facts in the Quran... That just recently been discovered by scientists, and professions, who in their discovery were often rewarded highly with medals, nobles, and so forth... And it's funny, cause when they win something for making such a discovery, and the muslims were like "ya, we could've told you that, we believed that all along, but you came up with the means to prove it... Mashallah"

A lot of the times the people would convert to islam because they know the roots of their discovery is far beyond anyone 1400 years ago could've interpreted.

Also, listen to this. How much do we "Know" about this universe??? Is it 0.0001% of everything to know... 0.1%... even 1%??? Say we are smart, and know 5% of everything there is to know in this universe... that leaves 95% to the unknown. If everything we know.. which is a lot of information, only comes out to 5% of everything there is to know, can God exist in the 95% of things that we don't know (or can't prove)???

Kidman

 

[Trumble]

Re: Truth= god does not exsist!

The thing that caught my attention, was the scientific facts in the Quran... That just recently been discovered by scientists, and professions, who in their discovery were often rewarded highly with medals, nobles, and so forth... And it's funny, cause when they win something for making such a discovery, and the muslims were like "ya, we could've told you that, we believed that all along, but you came up with the means to prove it... Mashallah"

A lot of the times the people would convert to islam because they know the roots of their discovery is far beyond anyone 1400 years ago could've interpreted.

There are no 'scientific facts' in the Qur'an. All there are are a few statements that might be associated with them if you have faith such an association exists.

One example, the "seven regular heavens" thing. Firstly, that didn't even originate with the Qur'an.. virtually every other religion uses seven in that context from Christianity to Buddhism. Secondly, in scientific terms there are no discrete seven layers. Troposphere, Ozonosphere etc. are just labels for convenience to describe what are gradual changes in property. Depending on how precise scientists wanted to be they could have named as many zones and sub-zones as they liked, 3, 9, 27, or whatever. And of course when you think of "heavens" it's quite a step from that to layers of the atmosphere anyway - is that really what was meant in the Qur'an? In the other traditions it is 'real' heavens being talked about, equatable perhaps to worlds, other dimensions, or even degrees of spiritual advancement. A bit more likely than high school science, maybe?

No miracle. As you say, you believe what you want to believe. All the rest of the 'miracles' can be explained in much the same way.

 

[Malaikah]

Re: Response to 'Truth=God don't exist'

Pygoscelis,

lolwatever would like you to respond to this post of his:

warning: this is lolly

salams
in response to nogod2006 i said:

"Perhaps if you knew something about math, you'd understand that it's 100% wrong of you to even suggest that such a probabalistic monstrosity could occur.... simply put... if you take the limit of a probability function that models the existance of this universe - ranging from the bgi bang, to the organistaion fo chaos, to the evolution of all sorts of things to their current states, no mathematicision would argue that the probability literally is not ZERO.

Try disproving that if you wish... based on that, knowing that the probability is literally zero in the limit, surely there's gotta be some sort of intelligent designer behind it all."

I advise you to take a course in math.... you'll learn alot trust me (math is a science btw)

I got a pathetic response from nogod2006 "I'm familiar witht hat argument, hav u hear of parallel universe theories"


The question is:

a. If you're so famililar with that argument, y not reply to it? (And don't tell me "oh but y is so n so mathemtiacian athiest" that doesnt refute the argument).
b. parallel universe is just a theory.
c. parallel universe has nothign2do with the topic... i can use that to my advantage too, but it would go off topic.


now.. nogod2006.... reply to that point.. u seem to hav ignored me totally!

mods pls move this 2 dat thread.. n insure he replies!!!

 

[- Qatada -]

What seems more likely? The universe having always existed or coming to be on its own or an infinitely more complex God being having always existed or coming to be on its own? I submit it is the former even if both are unlikely.

Believing in a Creator is much easier to believe than believing that everything is created by itself.

If the absence of a belief in a God makes people want to kill each other, then why haven't I killed anybody? There is a frequent belief amongst some believers in Gods that athiests can not have morals. Is that your view?

A person is born in a state of fitrah (a natural inclination to do good) so because Allaah Almighty has made life sacred, we don't incline to murder anyway. However, as a person keeps sinning and doing evil acts, their heart gets covered in darkness. The further a person deviates from the right path - the further they fall into darkness, and the more evil they may dwell in within their lifetime.

And do you honestly believe that a lack of belief in a God has caused more murders than a belief in one? Religious crusades, witch hunts, killing of heretics, killing of apostates, human sacrifice, all have long long well established histories.

It's not religion itself, its people abusing and taking the religion to justify what they do. Even if the religion doesn't encourage certain actions.

I think its more common that they ARE following some form of imagined righteous guidance, since belief in Gods is more common than disbelief. People rationalize such things and may even do these terrible things at the imagined (or real, who is to know) behest of their God.

I said in my earlier post - "These dictatorships occur mainly when a person isn't following any form of righteous guidance."

If they using a religion which isn't for real anyway, and all it is of benefit for is for the people higher in the system - then obviously they may abuse their power. Whereas in islaam, if the leader isn't applying the islamic law, the people don't have to obey him.

Interesting choice of wording there. Does this then exclude atheists, who don't believe God exists? You can't reject somebody you don't believe to exist.

I've often wondered about that. Can an atheist commit blasphemy? If an atheist says something nasty about a God he doesn't believe to exist he isn't speaking about that God him/her/itself but only about the concept of that God within those who believe in him.

Rejecting Allaah Almighty is to reject His commands, attributes, His messengers etc. Therefore anyone who doesn't submit to Allaah, they are the losers and have commited kufr/disbelief.

Given the motivation you assign to him, you are of course correct. But what if he truly is sorry?

What's his motive behind it? Everyone has an intention behind what they do. A person is more likely to be sincere if it will affect him/her personally.




Allaah Almighty know's best.




Peace.

 

[Pygoscelis]

I cannot dignify your selective reading..

I am not reading selectively. It has been stated here numerous times that any dues you pay to the victim are done not for the sake of the victim themself but for the sake of Allah.

How do you know? you ran any sort of study as to what goes on in the minds of these women, and what drove them to this life style? Some things are universal regardless of culture or religion..

I don't have to know.

I'm not the one here stating that they lack dignity or labelling them as victims. I'm quite happy to leave them alone in what they do and not judge them or their business.

How many sex workers have you spoken with? How many do you know personaly? I know a few and they are all decent people who would be offended by being told that their lives are not dignified.

Again what do you know of my background... Maybe I too was an atheist at some point and became Muslim

All I know about your background is that you stated that you can't imagine a good reason why they would engage in the business that they do. Yet clearly they do find such reasons. They engage in their business willingly. They could get other jobs but choose not to.

Clearly SOMETHING is blinding you to their reasons. If it isn't your culture and religion, then what is it? Or do you claim to know their minds better than they themselves do?

certain reportable diseases that the CDC should be notified of, go unreported and pandemics can start and spread of disease through these portals

Only because of the taboo. Legalize and regulate. License. Tax. Pushing it underground is what creates the greatest amount of danger.

... Men who frequent brothels are sometimes married or engage with others outside of marriage.....

How does this differ from men having affairs outside of the sex industry? Isn't this between themselves and their wives? Why is this my or your business? If they have pledged monogomy and then break it, they are being dishonest and breaking their pledge and the wife has decent grounds to be upset (ie get divorced).

 

[Pygoscelis]

Re: Response to 'Truth=God don't exist'

Pygoscelis,

lolwatever would like you to respond to this post of his:

It is a false statement. Given infinite time that either happened prior to the universe coming to be or that the universe has existed, the probability of the universe isn't 0. It is 1 (ie bound to happen).

Moreover, what is more unlikely? The universe existing or coming to be or a much more complex entity exiting or coming to be and then creating the universe?

 

[- Qatada -]

Moreover, what is more unlikely? The universe existing or coming to be or a much more complex entity exiting or coming to be and then creating the universe?

Allaah has always been, and it is much easier to believe that the universe was created by someone than no-one at all. (I see this argument so much that the answer has to be repeated to you over and over again.)

 

[Pygoscelis]

I said in my earlier post - "These dictatorships occur mainly when a person isn't following any form of righteous guidance."

If they using a religion which isn't for real anyway, and all it is of benefit for is for the people higher in the system - then obviously they may abuse their power.

Everybody who claims to do something in the name of religion is claiming to do it in the name of a God. There is no way to know if they are following an Actual God or a delusion or just lieing.

As for False Religions, every religion claims every other religion is false. So its really not easy to follow that point outside of one's own religious view. It will vindicate the doer in their own mind and condemn them in the observer's mind.

What's his motive behind it? Everyone has an intention behind what they do. A person is more likely to be sincere if it will affect him/her personally.

Well adding God to the equation only adds one more motive that isn't selfish. Maybe he's apologizing to his father to look good in the eyes of his God. Maybe he's apologizing to avoid hellfire or to gain heaven.

Then again, maybe he's just genuinely sorry? This could be the case with or without a religious belief.

 

[جوري]

I am not reading selectively. It has been stated here numerous times that any dues you pay to the victim are done not for the sake of the victim themself but for the sake of Allah.)

really? that is news to me..... perhaps it has more to do with your understanding of what was written rather than what was written...

I don't have to know.

I'm not the one here stating that they lack dignity or labelling them as victims. I'm quite happy to leave them alone in what they do and not judge them or their business.)

There is a lack of dignity in what they do... and for the the same reasons, that keep you from parading in the streets in your birthday suit.... unless you do in which case please accept my humble apologies...

How many sex workers have you spoken with? How many do you know personaly? I know a few and they are all decent people who would be offended by being told that their lives are not dignified.

I have treated quite a few during my OB/GYNE rotation.... it was a tragic situation... maybe they weren't on the high end of the scale as the ones "YOU KNOW PERSONALLY"

All I know about your background is that you stated that you can't imagine a good reason why they would engage in the business that they do. Yet clearly they do find such reasons. They engage in their business willingly. They could get other jobs but choose not to.

most if not all the reasons are not good ones! I can't see "hooking" or "stripping" as a good asset on a resume.......

Clearly SOMETHING is blinding you to their reasons. If it isn't your culture and religion, then what is it? Or do you claim to know their minds better than they themselves do?

Neither my culture nor religion, just seeing them in a hospital setting was enough for me to draw appropriate conclusions........

Only because of the taboo. Legalize and regulate. License. Tax. Pushing it underground is what creates the greatest amount of danger.

regulating it wouldn't change the life expectancy of these folk more than five years at best and that is an actual fact from a medical study!

How does this differ from men having affairs outside of the sex industry? Isn't this between themselves and their wives? Why is this my or your business? If they have pledged monogomy and then break it, they are being dishonest and breaking their pledge and the wife has decent grounds to be upset (ie get divorced).

It doesn't--- Religion dignifies men and women...... those who follow truthfully wouldn't subject themselelves or their spouses to such indignation..

 

[Pygoscelis]

Allaah has always been, and it is much easier to believe that the universe was created by someone than no-one at all. (I see this argument so much that the answer has to be repeated to you over and over again.)

Fi, it isn't an answer to the question, that my be why.

It may be easier for you to beleive that the universe was created by someone than no one at all, but then who was that someone created by? ANd if they have always been, why is it easier for you to believe that than to beleive that they were created by someone rather than by no one at all?

Don't you see that you are just complicating matters and leaving the dilema unanswered?

 

[جوري]

If God were created then he wouldn't be God.... One would worship the creator not the created....
To understand what God is would require that we not be humans, for simply God is beyond our comprehnsion... So much is beyond our comprehension with all our modern technology, such as the actual mechanism of accomadation convergence reaction, or the precise mechanism of action of an Alpha 2 adrenoceptor blockers, or the purpose of IgD on a B cell.....and and and--- if you can accept that there is that which can't be explained-- even by modern science, then it shouldn't be that difficult to believe in the God that created such complexity.... if you think you have an answer for everything... aside from the fact that I'd love to read about it.... then by all means be the mother of all logical atheists and come teach us all about it.
peace

 

[- Qatada -]

Pygoscelis, the reason i keep saying it over and over is due to the fact that you realise the beauty of the universe, the galaxies, the stars, the planets and everything within them - which makes it seem as if no-one could create them except a Perfect Being. He created all this for a reason, because whenever anyone does anything - they do it for a reason.


Just try building some toy planets, toy stars, and the beings that live within them - place them together so they rotate at different paces, revolving around others (i.e. the sun) and keep that system going for a while. How long will it run for? Will those toy planets keep revolving around the toy sun at a similar pace throughout? Or will the batteries die out



Reflecting on the creation is a form of worship, travelling in the lands is a form of worship so why not do that? living in this building block society makes us confused, we don't see the true nature of the animals, plants, stars etc. because we're too caught up in other things (i.e. collecting money etc. which gives us too less time to reflect on the creation.)



I don't want you to reply back to this as a debate, but i want you to take note of these points in your head. There may be moments in your life when you will feel that you're going to die, or where you feel you got no-one to help except someone higher in authority. If you don't believe in this higher authority, then just give it a shot - ask for help from the Creator, keep an open heart and see if the help comes down.


Realise that this Creator is the Most Merciful, and He doesn't desire that His servant's go to hell. This life is only temporary, and death is real. You can enjoy life while submitting to the Creator, because He will keep blessing you with more, even in this world.

Realise that you're a miracle too, and you will be rewarded for everything good you do. Use the abilities you've been blessed with for good, and you'll see it's fruits insha'Allaah.




Peace.




​

 

[Pygoscelis]

There is a lack of dignity in what they do... and for the the same reasons, that keep you from parading in the streets in your birthday suit.... unless you do in which case please accept my humble apologies...

You speak to social taboos. Have you ever been to a nudist colony? Do you consider nudists to be obscene? They don't. It isn't what some here may imagine. It is actually a very freeing and wholesome experience. This is all a matter of your cultural views and taboos. Nothing more.

most if not all the reasons are not good ones! I can't see "hooking" or "stripping" as a good asset on a resume.......

Again, this is only due to social taboos. And for the smart ones it doesnt matter anyway. They can squirrel away a lot of money during their years in the sex industry, invest it, etc. I know a couple who are retired at age 40 and will not need to work again.

As for those tragic cases you have seen in hospitals, I think you are misattributing causation. These people would exist with or without the sex industry, though the elimination of the taboo surrounding it and making it seedy may help.

There is a dark underbelly of the sex industry, sure. Where abusive pimps cause harm to women, they should be prosecuted. Legalizatoin and Regulation would go a long way towards flushing them out.

There are women who engage in drug use and self mutilation, they should be helped. If such women also engage in the sex industry it may be because that is a big source of money available to them.

Correlation does not mean causation. Moreover, I'm not confident in the correlation appear to be speaking of.

As to the study you speak of (which I'll take your word for it that it exists), with the social taboo being what it is, how many women engaged in the sex industry (who are not the troubled type you refer to above) would answer such a survey? How many would admit to working in the sex industry (especially in the case of prostitution which is illegal in some places)? If not by survey, how was the study done?

It doesn't

Well then it says nothing of the sex industry.

Anyway, we're getting way off topic. This thread wasn't about sex workers. Lets get back on topic before the moderator decides to close the thread and we have to open another on topic.

Actually that may not be a bad idea, given that the fellow who started this thread appears to have vanished a while back.

 

[- Qatada -]

Guys, trust me - stick to the topic. What you discussing isn't part of that.. so i think it's better you stick to the topic of God insha'Allaah.


Peace.

 

[Pygoscelis]

if you think you have an answer for everything

I am not the one here claiming answers. I am claiming ignorance. It is the religions of the world that pretend to know the answers.

If, as you state, God is so complicated that it is beyond human comprehension to understand God, then doens't the same argument of a complicated thing coming to be or always existing being unlikely come into play?

If the universe is so amazing that it required a creator, is God not even more amazing and thus so amazing that it/he/she required a creator?

If God existed for all time or came to be without a creator, why can't something more simple like the universe come to be without a creator?