Truth= god does not exist?

[SirZubair]

Re: Truth= god does not exsist!

I cannot prove to you that God exists.

I have not, and will not bother wasting my time by searching for evidence either.

I am a believer of the Unseen.

I see the Signs of God all around me. Every rain drop, every bird, every Bee, every believer, every non-believer, ever grass, every leaf, every fish in the sea.

You won't see Allah (swt) in this lifetime, you will only be able to see the Signs of the lord of the worlds through his creations.

 

[united]

What about the origin of life?
Scientists are yet to create a living thing without using another living thing. yes we know all about particles but what exactly is life?

 

[- Qatada -]

Interesting. But I don't know why you posted it under the text you quoted?

You previosly said

"Not believing in God, especially a specificly named God, does not necesarily mean believing that the world came about by chance (ponder that one)."


Which implied to me that you never understood why we called God, Allaah.

Which says nothing to whether or not such a creator exists.

Your point, again from the earlier post:

"In ancient times I bet people would have had a much easier time believing that the earth was flat than round."


Doesn't hold much strength because thats a historical theory, and has been proved wrong. Whereas the issue of whether there is a Creator or not has always been debateable, and it will remain that way till the day of judgement.

This simply makes no sense. How does their age effect the strength of their theories? As to their "proofs", science doesn't set out to prove anything, just to come up with the theories that best explain the observations.

So their proofs aren't really "proofs" if there's no solid evidence to prove their theory.

Cultural difference perhaps. I simply could not become a slave. I value freedom too much for that.

Whether you believe it or not, you are a slave - whether its to your desires, wealth, the government that you live under.

I live in a democracy, not a dictatorship. I actually have a say in what those laws are. I also have the freedom to leave my country if I so wish and not be tortured as a result.

You do have a say somehow, but if another opinion overrides your opinion - you're stuck in following that order whether you love it or detest it. That is a way of obeying and being a slave of your society.

Even if I do stay in my country and break the law, my country will not resort to cruel and unusual punishment or torture (ie hellfire). My country will not punish me forever either. The aim of criminal law here isn't punitive but reformative. The idea isn't to punish wrongdoers because they are evil, but to reform them into being good. Eternal punishment would fly in the face of that.

Your country won't be able to punish you forever, nor will it be able to give you the punishment of hellfire. The reasons for this are because you're not in this world forever, you will die and they too will die. And what's the worst punishment your country can apply on you? It's simple - death. So they will apply the worst punishment they desire if they so wish, they can even use fire as a form of punishment.

If you feel you're country never applies this law, realise that US - the world's "super-power" applies the death penalty if you commit treason - so this contradicts your statement: "Even if I do stay in my country and break the law, my country will not resort to cruel and unusual punishment or torture." And like i said earlier, no they won't be able to torture you forever, but they may apply the worst "severest" punishment - death, which is one of the worst events some atheists fear.

I'm sorry but the God/Nation analogy is flawed in so many ways.

You havn't proved that at all.

Ah but which is more important? To apologize and make it up to the person you wronged or to repent to Allah?

Both are important, to ask forgiveness from the one you've wronged, give them a present even. Then repent to Allaah because you disobeyed Him (i.e. don't backbite, slander etc.) Simple As.



Allaah Almighty know's best.



Peace.

 

[Pygoscelis]

What about the origin of life?
Scientists are yet to create a living thing without using another living thing. yes we know all about particles but what exactly is life?

Good question. And though science has its theories, unlike religionists, many of us non-religious folks DON'T CLAIM TO KNOW. Is admitting you don't know something really so terrible?

 

[AhlaamBella]

what's terrible is mocking and defying other possible 'theories'.

 

[Pygoscelis]

"In ancient times I bet people would have had a much easier time believing that the earth was flat than round."


Doesn't hold much strength because thats a historical theory, and has been proved wrong. Whereas the issue of whether there is a Creator or not has always been debateable, and it will remain that way till the day of judgement.

You missed the point. You seemed to be claiming that ease of belief in God was evidence of God's existence. Your post kept talking about how much easier it was to believe than not to. I gave an analogy of something else people found easier to believe, but that was wrong.

So their proofs aren't really "proofs" if there's no solid evidence to prove their theory.

There is evidence of their theory, it just isn't conclusive proof. The evidence of their theory is better than the evidence of any other yet thought up, which is why it remains the predominant theory. If a better theory comes along then this one will be replaced. That's how science works.

You do have a say somehow, but if another opinion overrides your opinion - you're stuck in following that order whether you love it or detest it. That is a way of obeying and being a slave of your society.

You are ignoring the other differences. Even if a law is enacted that I disagree with I still have the choice of leaving the jurisdiction if I object strongly enough.

Your country won't be able to punish you forever, nor will it be able to give you the punishment of hellfire. The reasons for this are because you're not in this world forever, you will die and they too will die.

You're missing the point. My government WOULDN'T punish me forever or with hellfire even if it could, as is clear because it won't punish me for the rest of my life (even life imprisonment isn't for a person's actual lifetime) or torture me, their version of torture obviosly would be less than hell, but they don't even do it.

And what's the worst punishment your country can apply on you? It's simple - death. So they will apply the worst punishment they desire if they so wish, they can even use fire as a form of punishment.

We don't have the death penalty here, as I'm pretty sure is the case in most free democracies.

If you feel you're country never applies this law, realise that US - the world's "super-power" ....

Why do you assume I'm from the backwards nation called the USA? Not all non-muslim english speakers are from there you know.

Both are important, to ask forgiveness from the one you've wronged, give them a present even. Then repent to Allaah because you disobeyed Him (i.e. don't backbite, slander etc.) Simple As.

Both are important sure, but you're not answering the question. Which is more vital? My guess is that Allah is and you're not willing to say so because you know what that means to a non-believer.

 

[Woodrow]

Although nobody has yet to offer proof of Allah's(swt) existance, that all people will accept. I have so far never seen any alternative proof for the existance of the Universe.

The only proof to show that Allah(swt) does not exist would be to show unquestionable, verifiable proof that the Universe came into being by some other means.

 

[- Qatada -]

You missed the point. You seemed to be claiming that ease of belief in God was evidence of God's existence. Your post kept talking about how much easier it was to believe than not to. I gave an analogy of something else people found easier to believe, but that was wrong.

No, common sense proves God's existence. It's easier to believe that something was created by someone then believe that it was created by no-one at all. Any example in this world proves that, i.e. buildings, cars etc.

There is evidence of their theory, it just isn't conclusive proof. The evidence of their theory is better than the evidence of any other yet thought up, which is why it remains the predominant theory. If a better theory comes along then this one will be replaced. That's how science works.

So these theories don't really hold much weight, yet you believe them. But religions don't hold much weight either right (according to atheists)? Which kinda means you believe something which hasn't been proved 100%.

So that means i can rightly say that this evolution theory all depends on faith too.

You are ignoring the other differences. Even if a law is enacted that I disagree with I still have the choice of leaving the jurisdiction if I object strongly enough.

All countries within the west don't allow murder right? Where would you go if you wanted to do that?

You're missing the point. My government WOULDN'T punish me forever or with hellfire even if it could, as is clear because it won't punish me for the rest of my life (even life imprisonment isn't for a person's actual lifetime) or torture me, their version of torture obviosly would be less than hell, but they don't even do it.

If a nation can apply the death penalty, which is supposed to be the worst form of punishment [according to some] - then who says that they wouldn't give eternal punishment? What about Solitary confinement?

We don't have the death penalty here, as I'm pretty sure is the case in most free democracies.

Why do you assume I'm from the backwards nation called the USA? Not all non-muslim english speakers are from there you know.

The reason why i use the US as an example is because it is supposed to be the head of the democratic nations, and this is the reason why its so desperate to spread it to other lands.

Both are important sure, but you're not answering the question. Which is more vital? My guess is that Allah is and you're not willing to say so because you know what that means to a non-believer.

I think you don't understand. If part of the repenting process is to ask forgiveness off that person, and also to repent to Allaah - then how can it be said that one is more vital than the other? Both are important, and you're just using your bias from the christianity perspective to attack my point.




Allaah Almighty know's best.



Peace.

 

[Pygoscelis]

The only proof to show that Allah(swt) does not exist would be to show unquestionable, verifiable proof that the Universe came into being by some other means.

I don't think even that would disprove Allah or any other God.

I don't think a deity can be proved or disproved.

 

[جوري]

Greetings Pygoscelis
I don't want to answer what you have addresses another member with.....
but would like to ask you a few q's... 1-how much of Islamic shari'a Law do you know? Have you stories from the times of propher Mohammed (PBUH) to validate your claim that it is in fact "non-democratic" or barberic?
2- I will assume that you have relatives that are dear to you... How would you feel if say your mother or your pregnant daughter were raped or beaten and tortured, chopped into body bags and thrown in the water let's say chrismas eve.. as was done in the case of Ms. Lacy peterson by her husband? DO you still think it is barberic to impose that death penalty on him, or that it is "un-democratic"? Often people think of how heinous the act is of putting someone to death completely forgetting the victims..... I want you to answer that question truthfully, as in what would you do before we proceed.
3- To ask forgivness from God is to pay your dues to the victim, and his family... in Islam it is up to them to forgive..... or ask that you be punished for your crime... punishment for your crime is in a way to give reprieve from your sin...... and ultimately none of us are God to decide whether or not one should be forgiven
4- Lastly please contrast the number of crimes comitted in countries that impose shari'a laws (although I admit there are no states that are islamic) to ones where there is freedom for criminals to commit their acts... sincerely look into how much theft has gone in the US and how much in let's say Saudi Arabia.... and again we can talk about barberism....... Laws are meant to govern soceities and ensure the well beings of its members not to do the converse.. Please reflect deeply on those sentiments before deciding what is barberic and what isn't......
Personally I find debauchery, lewdeness, pornography and other major crimes, very hurtful on an emotional and social level to both myself and family, and the community I live in and serve..... but we are not here to discuss my feelings!
Peace!

 

[Pygoscelis]

No, common sense proves God's existence. It's easier to believe that something was created by someone then believe that it was created by no-one at all. Any example in this world proves that, i.e. buildings, cars etc.

That just begs the unanswerable question of first cause. If you say that God created us, then who created God? And if you say God just came to be spontaneously or that God is eternal, then you are just making a more fantastic claim than you are refuting.

So these theories don't really hold much weight, yet you believe them. But religions don't hold much weight either right (according to atheists)? Which kinda means you believe something which hasn't been proved 100%.

I think you're missing the point here. I don't believe in evolution the way that you believe in Allah. I'm not 100% certain that evolution is the right theory, in fact I'm not certain at all, not even 25%. I'm pretty sure that the theory of evolution as currently compromised will be adjusted and maybe even turfed entirely when a better theory comes along. Yet the fact remains that for now it is the best theory we have.

All countries within the west don't allow murder right? Where would you go if you wanted to do that?

Why on earth would I want to murder?

But lets look at your question anyway. Any society that functions wouldn't allow murder, that is true, since murder is defined legally as "culpable homocide" or wrongful killing.

If I left my country to live on some uncharted island somewhere I would be free to murder. Of course then the problem would be a lack of people to kill. I bet that if people came and lived with me on that island we'd very quickly establish a pact that we don't murder each other.

So I suppose the only way to Murder without it beling illegal would be to do so in that small period of anarchy before such a pact is formed. And no, I wouldn't want to live in such a place.

[qoute]
If a nation can apply the death penalty, which is supposed to be the worst form of punishment [according to some] - then who says that they wouldn't give eternal punishment? What about Solitary confinement? [/quote]

I'm sure they could. In fact, I'm sure they do. Dictatorships and repressive regimes abound throughout history. This may be why many religions are modelled after them. But these are not places I'd care to live, much as I'd not care to live under a God with eternal torture on his mind.

The reason why i use the US as an example is because it is supposed to be the head of the democratic nations

Perhaps you and I can both agree that this is a false claim by the USA?
If anybody truly believes that the USA is a democracy, much less the head of Democractic nations, I'd wonder if they really knew how the USA functions.

I think you don't understand. If part of the repenting process is to ask forgiveness off that person, and also to repent to Allaah

Part of the process to gain Allah's forgiveness is to apologize to the person you wronged? Is that what you are saying? If so, then the end goal is Allah's forgiveness and not that of the person you wronged, who you are just approaching to get the latter.


Yes, I do have an understanding coming from the Christian viewpoint of how it works. That could mean I have a misunderstanding or ignorance of how it works in Islam. You haven't explained how the Islamic one differs yet. What you've said so far is exactly what a Christian would say.

 

[Pygoscelis]

1-how much of Islamic shari'a Law do you know?

Very little. All I know about it is that it has something to do with how Muslims govern themselves.

Have you stories from the times of propher Mohammed (PBUH) to validate your claim that it is in fact "non-democratic" or barberic?

No. Nor would I claim that Sharia law is "non-democratic" or barbaric. It may well be, but as noted above I know little about it so can't really say.

2- I will assume that you have relatives that are dear to you... How would you feel if say your mother or your pregnant daughter were raped or beaten and tortured, chopped into body bags and thrown in the water let's say chrismas eve.. as was done in the case of Ms. Lacy peterson by her husband?

I would be outraged of course.

DO you still think it is barberic to impose that death penalty on him, or that it is "un-democratic"?

Democracy has nothing to do with the legitimacy of the death penalty. Democracy is majority rule with minority rights. Its just happens to be that in most democratic nations in the west capital punishment is outlawed, because the populace doesn't favour it. There are exceptions, the USA being one.

Do I think it barbaric? Hard to answer. I wouldn't want capital punishment where I am though, because I wouldn't trust the criminal justice system that far. Innocent people have been found juilty and jailed for murder here before. So under this system innocent people would be put to death. I couldn't accept that.

I'd also have to be sure that a murderer was was incapable of reformation or exhile before I put them to death.

Often people think of how heinous the act is of putting someone to death completely forgetting the victims

Punishing the victimizer isn't undoing the wrong that has been done to the victims. The only valid reason for punishment is deterrence for other would be murderers or rapists, and the effectiveness of that seems quite weak.

A justice system should not be based on punishment. It especially shouldn't be based on eternal punishment (in which reformation is made impossible by the state) or unseen punishment (in which deterrence is minimized or non-existing).

3- To ask forgivness from God is to pay your dues to the victim, and his family

I sincerely hope that this is not the only way or the only reason you pay dues to the victim and his family.

Personally I find debauchery, lewdeness, pornography and other major crimes

I'm not sure what debauchery or lewdeness mean but pornography isn't a crime where I'm at, nor would I want it to be.

 

[Grace Seeker]

Originally Posted by Grace Seeker
If I may, I would prefer to ask a question. Do you attribute some human endeavors to be good and others to be bad? If so, then what is the standard you use to determine that which is good? You answer this, and then maybe we can talk about God.

I'll answer that one even though it wasn't directed at me. I do not believe in inherent good and evil, but only in socially constructive and socially destructive behaviour. I also have some social taboos that have been programmed into me via the society I live in (which are probably not really destructive but are just taboo) such as nudity and taboo words that have no racial or other slur value, such as the F word.

Thank-you for answering. You are most welcome to participate in the discussion. I appreicate your answer. Truly there is wisdom in recognizing that much of what we take for good or bad is the result of social constructs. It sounds like you may have read some of my favorite psychologicst, George Kelley. But that is neither here nor there. In adapting to those social constructs, if you don't believe in inherent good and evil, why do you lable the activies the social construct suggest for us as either good or bad? Surely they could have other labels, but you have chosen those labels. Why?

 

[جوري]

Democracy has nothing to do with the legitimacy of the death penalty. Democracy is majority rule with minority rights. Its just happens to be that in most democratic nations in the west capital punishment is outlawed, because the populace doesn't favour it. There are exceptions, the USA being one.

Do I think it barbaric? Hard to answer. I wouldn't want capital punishment where I am though, because I wouldn't trust the criminal justice system that far. Innocent people have been found juilty and jailed for murder here before. So under this system innocent people would be put to death. I couldn't accept that.

Well, it isn't for the faint hearted. You don't want to be punished ... don't commit a crime it is really quite simple. Not everyone can perform a Roux en Y procedure or a burr hole incision in someone's skull either ... seems barbaric... a necessary "evil" for the survival of some though

Punishing the victimizer isn't undoing the wrong that has been done to the victims. The only valid reason for punishment is deterrence for other would be murderers or rapists, and the effectiveness of that seems quite weak..

Perhaps not but it will set an example for others to think twice before commiting a crime. Also I'd need stats on effectivness... contrast four thefts in saudi Arabia... to the thousands in the U.S just last year alone. Someone here posted an exact number before..... I'd say that is pretty effective....

A justice system should not be based on punishment. It especially shouldn't be based on eternal punishment (in which reformation is made impossible by the state) or unseen punishment (in which deterrence is minimized or non-existing)...

May I ask then if you hold a job? if you answered yes... may I ask why do you do it? if you answer with ( salary, promotions, good living, a comfortable conscious, a productive member of society a good retirment pension) I'd ask you to contrast that with religion as well.... Every system is based on what you will get out of it, on so many levels. Personal, spiritual, societal. Also contrast all of that to what would happen, if you should slack off on your job, or neglect your duties?

I sincerely hope that this is not the only way or the only reason you pay dues to the victim and his family.

What way is that? asking for forgivness and accepting punishment isn't good or sincere for you, then what is? repentence is something that is between you and God not you and the one you victimized.

I'm not sure what debauchery or lewdeness mean but pornography isn't a crime where I'm at, nor would I want it to be.

walk in the red district part of town and it might impart a hint! I am sorry pornography isn't a crime where you are. I find it very disturbing that a young woman would sell her body for any reason. and it is a crminal act more so on the soceity that has led her to such a miserable path.
peace to you pygo.

 

[- Qatada -]

That just begs the unanswerable question of first cause. If you say that God created us, then who created God? And if you say God just came to be spontaneously or that God is eternal, then you are just making a more fantastic claim than you are refuting.

God is classed as God because an attribute of God is that He is eternal. If God was created, then He wouldn't be God would he?


If you're confused about why we come up with something like that, our sources are the Qur'an [the speech of Allaah] and the Sunnah - the ways and sayings of His messenger - Muhammad (peace be upon him.)

Within the Qur'an, and Sunnah - the names and attributes of Allaah are mentioned, you can view these from here insha'Allaah:

http://www.islamicity.com/Mosque/99names.htm


So we don't say Allaah is eternal just because we think so, its mentioned in our authentic islamic sources.

I think you're missing the point here. I don't believe in evolution the way that you believe in Allah. I'm not 100% certain that evolution is the right theory, in fact I'm not certain at all, not even 25%. I'm pretty sure that the theory of evolution as currently compromised will be adjusted and maybe even turfed entirely when a better theory comes along. Yet the fact remains that for now it is the best theory we have.

According to you. Not to the majority of mankind.

Why on earth would I want to murder?

But lets look at your question anyway. Any society that functions wouldn't allow murder, that is true, since murder is defined legally as "culpable homocide" or wrongful killing.

If I left my country to live on some uncharted island somewhere I would be free to murder. Of course then the problem would be a lack of people to kill. I bet that if people came and lived with me on that island we'd very quickly establish a pact that we don't murder each other.

So I suppose the only way to Murder without it beling illegal would be to do so in that small period of anarchy before such a pact is formed. And no, I wouldn't want to live in such a place.

People murder to get the most out of this world, before death. Man's hasty, and he prefers this world over the hereafter (this is why patience is an important trait in islaam.) Some people can't wait to be king so they may even murder their own father etc. So in situations like this, man is likely to murder. Whereas if he/she believes in the concept of God, they fear to murder out of His punishment, because life has been classed as sacred in nearly all faiths.

I'm sure they could. In fact, I'm sure they do. Dictatorships and repressive regimes abound throughout history. This may be why many religions are modelled after them. But these are not places I'd care to live, much as I'd not care to live under a God with eternal torture on his mind.

Eternal torture is only for those who reject God. If they reject Him, their choosing to disobey Him willfully, which means they feel they can kill whomever they wish, or to steal, oppress etc. These dictatorships occur mainly when a person isn't following any form of righteous guidance. Whereas if a person is really following the right guidance, he/she are afraid to disobey their Creator because they believe in a punishment, and also the opposite extreme - a reward if they obey.

Perhaps you and I can both agree that this is a false claim by the USA?
If anybody truly believes that the USA is a democracy, much less the head of Democractic nations, I'd wonder if they really knew how the USA functions.

Atleast we agree on something.

Part of the process to gain Allah's forgiveness is to apologize to the person you wronged? Is that what you are saying? If so, then the end goal is Allah's forgiveness and not that of the person you wronged, who you are just approaching to get the latter.

Yes, I do have an understanding coming from the Christian viewpoint of how it works. That could mean I have a misunderstanding or ignorance of how it works in Islam. You haven't explained how the Islamic one differs yet. What you've said so far is exactly what a Christian would say.

When a person asks for forgiveness from Allaah, they are doing it for their own soul. The person doesn't have to repent [if they are too arrogant to], and Allaah does not need their repentance because He is self sufficient. If you wrong someone, even if you're intention is for your own good - the person will be pleased that you asked forgiveness from them. No matter what the intention was.


If a person swears at his dad, then later on tells him he's sorry (because his intention is to please his dad so his dad will allow him to inherit his wealth) - then the person is doing it for his/her own self.

Similarly - when a person sins, they realise that they have harmed someone, so they ask forgiveness from that person they wronged, and they don't expect anything from that person in return - they also realise that they've disobeyed Allaah, so they repent to Him in order that they be forgiven due to fact that they transgressed against the laws set by Allaah, and in return - recieve Allaah's Mercy, and reward.


If a persons asked someone for forgiveness, and the person accepted it - it's better than not asking for forgiveness at all. And if someone disobeys their Creator, they should also repent to Him for their own good, because the only reason they've accepted that faith is to submit to the Creator.




Allaah Almighty know's best.



Peace.

 

[snakelegs]

Re: Truth= god does not exsist!

I cannot prove to you that God exists.

I have not, and will not bother wasting my time by searching for evidence either.

I am a believer of the Unseen.

I see the Signs of God all around me. Every rain drop, every bird, every Bee, every believer, every non-believer, ever grass, every leaf, every fish in the sea.

You won't see Allah (swt) in this lifetime, you will only be able to see the Signs of the lord of the worlds through his creations.

well said!

 

[Pygoscelis]

Surely they could have other labels, but you have chosen those labels. Why?

Surely they COULD have other labels, and probably better ones. I only speak of good and bad because that is the language given to me. Those labels were not chosen by me but by the society in which I reside. I would prefer to speak in terms of socially constructive and socially destructive and in terms of social taboos, but not may people will get where I'm coming from and fewer still will want to change their language.

 

[Pygoscelis]

contrast four thefts in saudi Arabia... to the thousands in the U.S just last year alone. Someone here posted an exact number before..... I'd say that is pretty effective....

Are you saying they kill people for theft in Saudi Arabia? That's pretty shocking if true. Note that deterence for theft and for murder are not the same thing.

[qoute]
repentence is something that is between you and God not you and the one you victimized. [/quote]

I was saying that I hope you do more than just pray to your God etc to make things up to the person who was wronged. You're not making everything alright in my view just by praying to your God, which the victim may not even believes exists. That energy would be better spent apologizing to the victim and doing something to make it up to THEM.

walk in the red district part of town and it might impart a hint! I am sorry pornography isn't a crime where you are. I find it very disturbing that a young woman would sell her body for any reason. and it is a crminal act more so on the soceity that has led her to such a miserable path.
peace to you pygo.

Oh do you mean things like prostitution, strippers, etc? I see nothing wrong with those things if a woman (or man for that matter) chooses to engage in them. Who are we to declare her a victim when she herself doensn't feel victimized and she herself has decided to engage in this? In the case of pimps etc or child porn then I'd agree, but not if the woman sets out for this on her own accord, which is FAR more common than you may think.

 

[Pygoscelis]

God is classed as God because an attribute of God is that He is eternal. If God was created, then He wouldn't be God would he?

What seems more likely? The universe having always existed or coming to be on its own or an infinitely more complex God being having always existed or coming to be on its own? I submit it is the former even if both are unlikely.

People murder to get the most out of this world, before death. Man's hasty, and he prefers this world over the hereafter (this is why patience is an important trait in islaam.) Some people can't wait to be king so they may even murder their own father etc. So in situations like this, man is likely to murder. Whereas if he/she believes in the concept of God, they fear to murder out of His punishment, because life has been classed as sacred in nearly all faiths.

If the absence of a belief in a God makes people want to kill each other, then why haven't I killed anybody? There is a frequent belief amongst some believers in Gods that athiests can not have morals. Is that your view?

And do you honestly believe that a lack of belief in a God has caused more murders than a belief in one? Religious crusades, witch hunts, killing of heretics, killing of apostates, human sacrifice, all have long long well established histories.

These dictatorships occur mainly when a person isn't following any form of righteous guidance.

I think its more common that they ARE following some form of imagined righteous guidance, since belief in Gods is more common than disbelief. People rationalize such things and may even do these terrible things at the imagined (or real, who is to know) behest of their God.

Eternal torture is only for those who reject God.

Interesting choice of wording there. Does this then exclude atheists, who don't believe God exists? You can't reject somebody you don't believe to exist.

I've often wondered about that. Can an atheist commit blasphemy? If an atheist says something nasty about a God he doesn't believe to exist he isn't speaking about that God him/her/itself but only about the concept of that God within those who believe in him.

If a person swears at his dad, then later on tells him he's sorry (because his intention is to please his dad so his dad will allow him to inherit his wealth) - then the person is doing it for his/her own self.

Given the motivation you assign to him, you are of course correct. But what if he truly is sorry?

 

[جوري]

Are you saying they kill people for theft in Saudi Arabia? That's pretty shocking if true. Note that deterence for theft and for murder are not the same thing.

No that isn't the punishment for theft. Punishment always fits the crime...

I was saying that I hope you do more than just pray to your God etc to make things up to the person who was wronged. You're not making everything alright in my view just by praying to your God, which the victim may not even believes exists. That energy would be better spent apologizing to the victim and doing something to make it up to THEM.

And we have already explained that part of repentence is paying your dues to the victim....... The victims family in fact many times can decide your fate according to shari'a law. whether they wish to grant you reprieve or impose death penalty... of course I believe that only applies to non meditated murder... Do you know the psychology of the criminal mind? I am really curious?....... even on a small level if you'd put your atheism aside to walk in someone else's show you'd think on some level that a God who created a universe as sophisticated as this would know if someone were truly sincere in their repentence from someone just goofing off to be a hypocrite amongst his people?
I am not sure what does repenting to ones God have to do with societal laws when a criminal still needs to pay his societal obligations which are set forth by the same God whom he is seeking forgivness from. How can repentence be sincere when you carry out one duty and not the other? I am confused one the one hand you detest the barberic methods of execution, on the second you don't think it alright to ask for forgiveness from God... what is it that you are looking for? If I give you a flat tire because I despise you and your new car but later on come to feel remorse... the appropriate thing to do from a religious stance that I pay you for a new tire or replace your old one... what I do between me and "my" God in the way of asking for forgivness is my own business and who should say that my repentence to "my" God would be accepted even?...I don't see how or why it should bother you one way or the other......

Oh do you mean things like prostitution, strippers, etc? I see nothing wrong with those things if a woman (or man for that matter) chooses to engage in them. Who are we to declare her a victim when she herself doensn't feel victimized and she herself has decided to engage in this? In the case of pimps etc or child porn then I'd agree, but not if the woman sets out for this on her own accord, which is FAR more common than you may think.

How do you know what it is I think for starters?? 2ndly I can't think of one good reason a woman would prositute herself over choosing a dignified life... I think it is as immoral for an adult woman as it is for a child for exact same reasons. She is a victim and a victimizer as this is the down fall of society as a whole... If you don't think so, I can respect that, as it is your opinion... but it doesn't make it right.... If people were to follow one of many of their religious obligations set forth by God in the way of giving Alms then there would be no need for a woman to go strip herself to gawking wretched men to put food on the table!
peace!