Truth= god does not exist?

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There are many perceptions, of course we could take the word sky out of the dictionary and insist everyone stick to strick scientific terminology and nothing would change, but I don't think any of them are credited with as much as God/gods are. God is by all accounts supposed to have sashayed through into the physical world to participate in virgin births, visions, spontaneous events of nature, mind reading etc.
Historical things, while we rely on historical retelling to learn of them, are not beyond scientific possibility. The war of 1812 could happen today within scientific parameters, an army of elephants could be marched over mountains tomorrow if anyone cared to put the effort into it. However, things that God is credited for such a mind reading, virgin births have never been shown as scientifically possible.
So accounts that are shown to be feasible today but with only hearsay I would more likely believe happened than supernatural accounts which have never stood up to scrutiny.

Believe me, belief isnt based upon mircales and historical accounts. Nobody will tell you that because Jesus walked on water, and therefore i believe in God.lol..Its a personal thing. Its hard to explain, but if youve ever been in love. You feel that certainty, that firm belief, that you cant be wrong. That the other person is essential to your life, yet explain it to me, and you cant. Its not tangible, and its hard, if not impossible to explain. Ive been there, and at times you dont know what it is that makes you love, its not how clever the other person is, nor how pretty, bllah blaah.lol..etc. Its just something. Belief in God resembles that in someway, yet lasts a lifetime usually. I know it sounds weird to say, but thats why i cant prove it to you, and thats why i wont attempt to either. Its something you have to reach yourself. I do think everybody has the potential to believe in a God, but at times, there are things that prevent us. I mean, Ibrahim (Abraham) was unable to convince his father God existed and to stop worshiping the idols, and Abraham was a prophet.lol. (No, that story isnt the reason i believe in God.lol) Im studying medicine, and its weird, coz everything i hear, and see makes me believe even more, yet for others its different. For e.g Mitochondrian, they have ribosomes and DNA and are similar to bacteria and bare resemblance to them, therefore some think that that shows we evolved from them, or that at least Mitochondrian did. Fair enough.lol. I dont see it like that. Its a personal feeling to be honest.

Take Care

Peace
 
Re: Truth= god does not exsist!

Lol...nice explanation. However i wasnt using my comment as an arguement for the existance of God, i was just explaning the fact that firstly belief is what it is, there is no proof. Secondly, how most muslims percieve god. But with darwins theory, (which is outdated and whilst many scientists belive in evolution, very few agree with Darwinism...read what he actually said.lol) Couldnt you assume that, seeing as the majority of people in this world believe in a form of a God, that we have evolved to believe in a God? (yes, i know that doesnt make complete sense, its part of the question.lol)

And, the thing is, with you, i cant really win. If i tell you God is bound by science, then your gona go, well, he cant be god, because he is just like us, so what makes him any greater, etc etc. and if i say he isnt bound by science, then well, wheres the proof, and its like a fairy.

Just one point, i dont know about our belief. We dont see ourselves as being better, or greater or more blessed neccesarily in this life by our belief in God. Its not that if you believe in God then your gonna become a millionaire, or anything physical. Thats why explaning God in a physical sense is hard, because He isnt physical, and we are.lol..im not gona try and convince you either to be honest, im jst trying to give you an insight into how we see things. I dont feel sorry for you, dont get me wrong, but my life, my point of it, ultimately, is God, its so hard for me to imagine not having that point,or purpose. What do you see as your purpose being? Its funny coz i sat down and thought about it. My grandad was born, he worked, married, raised a family, died. My dad studied, worked, married, has kids, and well, he will eventually die. I was born, am studying, want to marry,have kids, and well, im gona die wether i like it or not.lol, what makes you carry on living? We all seem to follow the same process, and i dont know, its hard to imagine it all ending there. Thats it? Kabam, and your gone? No sense of fairness or justness for those who had a 'bad' life. Im genuinely asking a question here, not trying to patronise, not trying to force my belief on you...

Take Care Bro

Peace

"Couldnt you assume that, seeing as the majority of people in this world believe in a form of a God, that we have evolved to believe in a God? (yes, i know that doesnt make complete sense, its part of the question.lol)"

Well, that really follows on from the children being so suited to taking advice from their elders. With the practical advice such as "don't put your hand in the toaster" comes the not so practical (in my atheist worldview btw) advice such as "God sees and hears everything you do". Probably some other things about Santa and Tooth Faries can be thrown in as well.
The child brain takes them as both as they come without evaluating them, and so sees no reason to doubt either of them. Society as a whole were all children once and unless they grew up in a communist country, would have at some point undergone the same treatment from parents, schools, media and so the belief in God/Shiva/Thor/Whatever sticks until adulthood - when it is once again passed down, and so on.
So what may have originated as a campfire story a long time ago spreads down generations and to neighbours until it becomes religion. Then you have the schisms and different groups end up believing different things - a sort of Chinese Whispers, who teach their children the different things and you have a sect, which in turn becomes another religion altogether.

As for a purpose in life...purposes only come from a higher evolved mind. For someone who believes in a creator god this isn't so much of a problem, but of course I place my stock in the scientific explanations for creation - although NOT random or chance, which evolution isn't at all, it still doesn't include any higher mind, it just happens. So basically I have no purpose.
Not that that means any atheist is going to jump off a cliff. On the contrary, if a person believes they have this life and no other, it would make sense to make the most of it, because there is a lot to make the most of.
 
Re: Truth= god does not exsist!

Thing is, if you have no purpose then its just weird to think about for me, its foreign. You see, i question a lot, my faith included, and i am critical. Im not going to believe anything that is thrown at me, and a muslim, my belief isnt accepted if i just believe because my family were muslims..as the Quran says..and what if your forfeathers followed what was wrong? So, whilst childhood aspect is true, i have taken an active step to finding out more, and what about those who were athiests, and then believed in God, i know loads of people who have converted whose parents didnt believe in God, and it wasnt forced upon them. Another example is the fact that many people in America have now embraced Islam, despite the 9/11 incidents, and the portrayal of Islam by the media. In a society where being a Muslim is in fact not such a good thing, why would people possibly want to think of changing?

I think that without a purpose, on the contrary, why live this life? If we started by chance, why not, when you are drowning, just let yourself drown. We complain of this life, and its evil, and problems. So many people are stressed out by work, and life generally, yet we still cling on for something, for me that is a better day, and that hope as such, for a brighter tomorow, arises from a belief in God. I think its really amazing to be honest, i wish i could be in your mind for a day, just to see how my perception of life would be different.

Subhan Allah..

...Either way, nice hearing your opv, very interesting.

Take care. Peace
 
Brother Hakkerz, I have still to read through your other posts thorolly but I do have a disagreement, please correct me if I have mistaken your view, but you said 'God cannot be proved,'

proved in what way? I don't get it? Meaning we cannot be sure?
 
There are many perceptions, of course we could take the word sky out of the dictionary and insist everyone stick to strick scientific terminology and nothing would change, but I don't think any of them are credited with as much as God/gods are. God is by all accounts supposed to have sashayed through into the physical world to participate in virgin births, visions, spontaneous events of nature, mind reading etc.
Historical things, while we rely on historical retelling to learn of them, are not beyond scientific possibility. The war of 1812 could happen today within scientific parameters, an army of elephants could be marched over mountains tomorrow if anyone cared to put the effort into it. However, things that God is credited for such a mind reading, virgin births have never been shown as scientifically possible.
So accounts that are shown to be feasible today but with only hearsay I would more likely believe happened than supernatural accounts which have never stood up to scrutiny.

virgin births have never been shown as scientifically possible.

Parthogenises is a proven fact. Ever hear of cloning? Dolly the sheep only has a mother and no father.

spontaneous events of nature,

Oddly enough you advocate that happening also. For example the formation of matter. Then again the Qur'an ONLY MENTIONS a few spontaineous events most events in the Qur'an are provable or can be shown the one we do not presently have proof of are plausable. Our difference will be in why they occured not if they did or did not occur.
 
Brother Hakkerz, I have still to read through your other posts thorolly but I do have a disagreement, please correct me if I have mistaken your view, but you said 'God cannot be proved,'

proved in what way? I don't get it? Meaning we cannot be sure?

Brother, i didnt intend it in that way. The assumption that proof = certainty i dont agree with. I was talking about physically, as that was what we were discussing. Physical proof of God, i believe, is not present, otherwise, He wouldnt be God. It also means there is no 'test' because proof of God means you dont have to believe. Its like me saying, there is a table infront of, me and then going, believe there is a table infront of me, youve removed the element of belief. In turms of can we be sure, or yaqeen, as it is referred to (certainty), then yes, you can achieve that, and i am more certain of the existance of Allah, than that my 'belief' lol, that the table exists. I dont know if you share the same opinion, either way, thanx for the comment, take care.

Remembering you in my Duaas, and asking for rememberance in yours..

Ahmad
 
Not if you come from a scientific perspective it isnt. In science, experiments never disprove anything, they just prove that something else is more likely to happen. Look at all the theories they have, they dont make another theory invalid or less likely. Therefore theoretically, it is the job on the non-believer to prove that god doesnt exist, and not for us to prove that god does exist. Again this is if you take the scientific perspective.

Tc

Peace

god cannot be proven. belief in god is belief - it requires no proof.
religion is a different system than science, not lesser - only different.
so it is no-one's job to prove god exists or doesn't exist.
i believe in god - do i have "proof"? of course not - the question makes no sense.
 
I think that without a purpose, on the contrary, why live this life? If we started by chance, why not, when you are drowning, just let yourself drown.

The question could be turned around and asked to a theist - if someone believes in an eternal afterlife then why not hurry the process along? But very few people, theist or atheist would just go without a fight so neither theory really holds any water.
 
religion is a different system than science

religon tell u who r u, who created all the thing, what is ur way of life etc..

Remember today’s scientific proof can be proven garbage tomorrow.
So nothig is abosulate in science.

Science tiring to know the creation which already created

everything of science depend on the creation which already created long before than any could imagine.

hard to understand people following science:giggling: not the creator????
 
Assalaamu alaikum

Belief in Allah is based on faith. If you look around you at Allah's creations, there is clear evidence that God exists. I'm sure that everything didn't just create itself.
 
The question could be turned around and asked to a theist - if someone believes in an eternal afterlife then why not hurry the process along? But very few people, theist or atheist would just go without a fight so neither theory really holds any water.

Greetings
Yup..... but what is your fight for? ephmeral pleasures of this world? or eternal pleasures of the next? I think theists are a bit more far sighted.... that is all....better planners......:)
 
aslam ala mun itabal huda!!!
Truth Revealed
A Professor walks in the class and asks, "Has any one of you seen God? Has any one of you touched God? Therefore God doesn't exist".
A Student stands up and addresses the class, "Has any one of you seen Professor's brain? Has any one of you touched Professor's brain? Therefore..."

The universe exists. We are here. The birds sing, the wind blows, the stars shine. Why do things exist, instead of nothing? Is the universe eternal or was it created by God? If it was created by God, then is it One God or many Gods ? Of the hundreds of religions, which one is true? These are questions raised since antiquity.
Can we arrive at definite answers? And after arriving at the 'truth', are we brave enough to accept and follow it? Let the quest for truth begins...

For the paragraphs below, follow the relevant segment in the flow chart to the accompanying this article

Is the Universe Infinitely Old?
To answer this question, let's see if the concept of actual infinity itself is true.

Self-Evident Assumptions
1) Impossible for anything to possess two contradictory attributes simultaneously.
2) When a body is added to one of the two equal bodies, the one receiving the addition becomes greater than it was before, hence the greater of the two bodies.[1]

Now If...
a = infinity and
b = infinity + 1 = infinity. 'b' should be bigger than "a", see assumption #2
Therefore we have two infinities !, one is bigger than the other; 'b' is both equal to 'a' and simultaneously bigger than 'a', Which is absurd. Therefore, actual infinity doesn't exist. See assumption # 1. Also... What is infinity minus 1, or plus one, or infinity minus infinity. Thus, the concept of infinity leads to all kinds of absurdities.

Conclusion
Therefore actual infinity doesn't exist, see # 1. It is impossible to continue subtracting numbers (Or segments of time) to reach negative 'infinite', and likewise it is impossible to add up numbers (or segments of time) to reach positive 'infinite' future.

Aristotle states: "Though we can imagine infinite, it is impossible for it to actually exists"[2]

David Hilbert, the greatest mathematician of this century likewise states, "The infinite is nowhere to be found in reality. It neither exist in nature nor provide a legitimate basis for rational thought...the role that remains for the infinite to play is solely that of an idea..." [3]

Scientific Confirmation of Universes' Beginning
Big Bang: Edwin Hubble's discovery in 1929 of the red shift in light from distant galaxies implies that the universe is expanding. 'If we trace this expansion back in time, the universe becomes an infinitely dense point. An infinite density is synonymous with 'nothing'. Cambridge astronomer Fred Hoyle points out, 'the Big Bang theory requires the creation of matter from nothing'.[4]

Second Law of Thermodynamics: 'Processes taking place in a closed system always tend to move towards a state of equilibrium (entropy)'. The universe is a gigantic closed system (since it is everything that there is, and no energy is being fed into it from outside). Therefore, this Law implies that given enough time, the universe will reach a state of thermodynamic equilibrium, known as "heat death" of the universe.[5]

Since the universe is not now in a state of heat death, it means it is not infinitely old.

Therefore the universe had a beginning (it is 'temporal').

Who created the universe?
Self-Evident Assumptions
1) Everything that begins to exist has a cause of its existence.[6]
2) Out of nothing comes anything.
3) Only an existing entity can cause a change or produce something.
4) Infinite succession of events doesn't exist, because actual infinity doesn't exist in reality.

Conclusions
a) Can it be by no one: Impossible. See assumption # 2
b) Can it be itself: impossible. See #3
c) Can it be another temporal entity: yes, but who then created this Second temporal entity; you can take this chain of causes back to infinity. But that's not possible, see #4. Therefore, you reach an 'entity' that doesn't need anyone to push it into existence. An entity that created the universe and itself was uncaused. We call this entity "Necessary to exist".
d) Can it be by a 'Necessary to exist': Yes, see the above point.

Attributes of this 'Necessary to exist'...
1) Creator
2) Eternal
3) Independent

We will add more attributes later.

This 'Necessary to Exist' is God!

How many Gods?
Many, 3 in 1 (Trinity), or Only One

Self-evident Assumptions
1) If 'x' has all the properties as 'y', then 'x' is the same entity as 'y' - The principle of Indiscernibility of Identities.[7]
2) For two items to have separate entities, they have to be different in at least one property.
3) Impossible for two contradictory attributes to exist in an entity, simultaneously.
4) A physical body is dependent on the space it is occupying. No space = no physical body.
5) For an entity to change in form, it has to be made of parts. The parts have to rearrange to assume this new form.
6) Anything that is made of parts needs someone to assemble the parts; therefore dependent on someone outside.
7) If made of parts, then it was not in the present form before. The old unassembled form disappeared and the new assembled form now exists, hence its only 'Temporal'.
8) Removing a portion from an entity makes that entity less whole; therefore not perfect (anymore).
9) If someone produces an entity, it means that this entity is not independent.

Conclusions
a) If there are many gods, then they each have to be different from one another in at least one attribute. See # 1. If they are different in attributes, then some lack the attributes the others have. Therefore, some of these gods are missing in least one attribute. Therefore they are not perfect. See # 8. Therefore, they can't be Gods. It is impossible for an all perfect being to be more than One.
b) God does not assume human (or any physical) form. See #4. Therefore, Incarnation of God is impossible.
c) Change of form means composed of parts. Therefore, it is not independent See #6.Therefore God is not made of parts.
d) An entity can't be both dependent and independent simultaneously. see #3. It is Impossible for anyone to be both 100% human (dependent) and 100% divine (independent) simultaneously.
d) God is not begotten. See #9
e) Begetting involves a part of one transferring into other. Therefore God doesn't beget anyone. See #8

Derived Attributes of God
1. Absolutely One
2. Creator
3. Independent, Eternal
4. Formless and Timeless
5. Doesn't come down in physical form
6. Not made of parts
7. Is not begotten
8. Doesn't beget
9. All Powerful
10. All knowing.

Down to Two Religions...
Of the pure monotheistic religions, only two fully recognize the above attributes of God. Judaism and Islam.

Self-Evident Assumptions
1) A Perfect Being doesn't contradict
2) An All-Moral Being doesn't deceive or confuse us.
3) A Perfect Guide, guides us with Clear 'Signs".

Conclusions
a) A true religion must recognize all the above attributes of God
b) Two religions that possess all the above attributes of God can't have contradictions between them. If they contradict, then one or both can't be true. See # 1, and #2
c) A true religion must possess a clear cut distinguishing feature. see #3

Criteria of a Miraculous Feature
1. If this feature (miracle) is produced by God, then none among the creation can match (equal) it.
2. Even the smallest portion of this miracle can't be matched.
3. This miracle should come down to us in an unaltered, pure form.
4. This miracle should be available to us to examine.

Judaism Examined
Miracles related in the Old Testament can't be witnessed by us now, to test or match them.

a) The oldest complete written copy of the old Testament is only from 900 AC (After Christ).[8]
The complete Old Testament hasn't been memorized in successive generations and hasn't reached us in that form.
Therefore doesn't satisfy criteria #3 and #4
b) If the miracles happened in the distant past and those records haven't comedown to us (from the time of the event to our time) in a pure and unaltered form, how can we be certain that they actually happened? Therefore neither the Old Testament or its miracles satisfies the above criteria.

Islam Examined
Islam proclaims the Quran, the revelation given to Prophet Muhammad (P), as that miracle.

A) The complete Quran was memorized since its inception and this method was maintained in successive generations by millions to our present time in an unaltered and pure form. Muslims recite the Quran from memory in their five daily prayers. Satisfies Criteria #3.
B) At least two written copies from initial times are preserved to our day.[9]
Therefore satisfies criteria #3.
C) Quran as revealed in Arabic is available in an unaltered and pure form in our hands for examination. Satisfies Criteria #4
D) God challenges any doubters to produce a book as perfect as the Arabic Quran.[10]
This challenge is open to all, and for all times. Satisfies criteria #1
E) God challenges the unbelievers to match even a single chapter of the Arabic Quran.[11] Satisfies criteria #2

Scientific Miracles in the Quran
Since Quran is the word of our Creator for all humanity, it gives us a hint about how the universe came about and how it is organized.
a) Big Bang: "Do not the unbelievers see that the heavens and the earth were joined together then We split them apart..." [12] ("We" is the Arabic plural of respect and not the Christian plural of trinity)
b)Expanding Universe: "And the firmament, we constructed with power and skill and verily We are expanding it".[13]



Conclusion
The best gift of God to us is our mind. Using which, we have successfully proven that the universe had a beginning and the cause of it was God. This God is One, Omniscient, Omnipotent, independent, doesn't beget and the rest of the attributes. Furthermore it was proven that out of the maze of hundreds of religions, only Islam fully satisfied all the derived attributes of God and posses a testable unique and unalterable miracle, which is a complete guidebook for all Humankind. Quran, along with the example of Prophet Muhammad (P), provides solutions to problems plaguing the world.

Now we can shun the above truths and continue following our ancestral religions. But then, we have to shun rationale too and be plagued by it for the rest of our lives, and regret it on the Day of Judgment. Or we could accept Islam, the revealed Truth, and preserve our rational.

Welcome to Islam.



Notes
1. Al-Kindi, On First Philosophy. pg. 67-73.

2. Aristotle, Physica, 3. 4-8. 202b30-208a20.

3. David Hilbert, "On The Infinity", in Philosophy of Mathematics, ed. Paul Benacerraf and Hilary Putnam, 1964. pg 151.

4. William Craig, "The Existence of God and the Beginning of the Universe". Truth: A Journal of Modern Thought, 3 (1991) pg. 85-96

5. Ibid.

6. William Craig, The Kalam Cosmological Argument, pg.63

7. Thomas Morris, Understanding Identity Statements, Chap. 6

8. Jimmy Williams, President of Probe Ministries International, "Are the Bible Documents Reliable", pg 2 (www.leaderu.com)

9. Abdur-Raheem Green "On the Inimitability and Authenticity of the Quran" pg. 1 (www.debate.domini.org/rws/green02.html)

10. Quran: Chapter 17, verse 88

11. Quran: Chapter 2, verse 23

12. Quran: Chapter 21, verse 33

13. Quran: Chapter 51, verse 47
 
The question could be turned around and asked to a theist - if someone believes in an eternal afterlife then why not hurry the process along? But very few people, theist or atheist would just go without a fight so neither theory really holds any water.

Well..no, because we have a point to live. Our point is to work in this life, for the next. Only once we have reached perfection, do we not fear death, as is said in the Quran to the Jews..."and wish upon yourselves death if you are truethful(in your belief of Allah)"

So, no, it cant be flipped around. If i told you that no matter how much you study and work, you will never get into university, or get the job you want etc..you dont bother, because there is no point to it all. Similar situation.

Take Care Bro

Peace
 
Well..no, because we have a point to live. Our point is to work in this life, for the next. Only once we have reached perfection, do we not fear death, as is said in the Quran to the Jews..."and wish upon yourselves death if you are truethful(in your belief of Allah)"

So, no, it cant be flipped around. If i told you that no matter how much you study and work, you will never get into university, or get the job you want etc..you dont bother, because there is no point to it all. Similar situation.

Take Care Bro

Peace

well said!
 
Re: Truth= god does not exsist!

:sl:
And just because we cannot convince you that God exists doesn't mean He doesn't. This is a very well known fact some refer to as "faith".

Yes. I agree entirely. If you look at the post I was responding to you will see that I never inferred otherwise.
 
The fact of the matter is that nobody can prove that God exists or does not exist. Lots of people try and fail but no theist has ever proven that God exists to the scientific satisfaction of a non believer and no non believer has ever proven to a theist that God doesn't exit.

It is all a matter of faith within those who either believe God exists or believe there is no God. The only ones working sans faith are those agnostics or atheists who LACK a belief in god but don't pretend to know that there is no god (note the difference between the two).

BTW, at what post count do I stop being a "limited member" and gain the ability to edit my posts?
 
The fact of the matter is that nobody can prove that God exists or does not exist. Lots of people try and fail but no theist has ever proven that God exists to the scientific satisfaction of a non believer and no non believer has ever proven to a theist that God doesn't exit.

It is all a matter of faith within those who either believe God exists or believe there is no God. The only ones working sans faith are those agnostics or atheists who LACK a belief in god but don't pretend to know that there is no god (note the difference between the two).

BTW, at what post count do I stop being a "limited member" and gain the ability to edit my posts?


actually there is proof....whether we see it or not is in our faith...but everyone will see it sooner or later....later meaning judgement day

you need 50 posts to become a full member
 
A very interesting paradox. Belief in Allah(swt) is based upon faith. the scientific community contends that faith is insufficient to justify belief. Yet, scientific testing is based on the faith that the testing will give the same results all the time.

Looking at the simplist scientific test, Limus Paper. We all know that blue litmus paper will turn red in the presence of a base and Red litmus paper will turn blue in the presence of an acid. we have faith that litmus paper will always do that, we have faith that the results will never reverse, we have faith that there are no exceptions. Scientists will accept that faith, yet will deny the validity of faith in Allah(swt)
 
Woodrow said:
Scientists will accept that faith, yet will deny the validity of faith in Allah


No, a lot of scientists believe in God. Who led the scientific world 1,200 years ago?
 
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