Questions for atheists about origin of universe
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Re: Question for atheists
And it is just as unconvincing as the atheist argument is to theists
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And it is just as unconvincing as the atheist argument is to theists
.Re: Question for atheists
I read much of the Qu'ran and found it unconvincing also to be honest. Besides, the Qu'ran didn't really try to convince me that God was real, but rather seemed to assume I already believed in him and mainly wanted me to accepted that this were truly his commands. To put it another way, ironically an average philosophy book goes into more depth on the question of God's existence than the whole of the Qu'ran.
LOL joka, Muslims don't have to argue, we have got proof
I read much of the Qu'ran and found it unconvincing also to be honest. Besides, the Qu'ran didn't really try to convince me that God was real, but rather seemed to assume I already believed in him and mainly wanted me to accepted that this were truly his commands. To put it another way, ironically an average philosophy book goes into more depth on the question of God's existence than the whole of the Qu'ran.
Abdul Fattah
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Re: Question for atheists
I think the trick is, the qur'an will try to get you to think about God's existence. Rather then putting down a universal argument that everybody would accept it places the responsibility with the reader. So if you start reading this book already convinced that it is false, then it's very probable that it won't defeat your prejudges. But that's not the point neither.
I don't know and Allah subhana wa ta'ala knows best
I think the trick is, the qur'an will try to get you to think about God's existence. Rather then putting down a universal argument that everybody would accept it places the responsibility with the reader. So if you start reading this book already convinced that it is false, then it's very probable that it won't defeat your prejudges. But that's not the point neither.
I don't know and Allah subhana wa ta'ala knows best
Pygoscelis
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Re: Question for atheists
The wonderful thing about staunch adherence to a belief (fundamentalists) or disbelief (strong atheists) in God is that you can take any evidence and view it from your own paradigm, confirming your initial view.
I don't think any amount of science is going to deconvert an ardent fundamentalist. They will just declare that God works in mysterious ways etc. And I don't think any amount of "proof" is going to convert an ardent strong atheist (which I'm not btw). God himself could appear before them and they'd just dismiss him as a dream or some bad mushrooms.
The wonderful thing about staunch adherence to a belief (fundamentalists) or disbelief (strong atheists) in God is that you can take any evidence and view it from your own paradigm, confirming your initial view.
I don't think any amount of science is going to deconvert an ardent fundamentalist. They will just declare that God works in mysterious ways etc. And I don't think any amount of "proof" is going to convert an ardent strong atheist (which I'm not btw). God himself could appear before them and they'd just dismiss him as a dream or some bad mushrooms.
Keltoi
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Re: Question for atheists
I believe, in general, that most self-described athiests are actually agnostic. They approach life from an intellectual standpoint, what is "real" and "unreal". Having been an athiest/agnostic in the past, I sort of understand that line of thought. However, in my opinion, I think some athiests become so rigid in their own belief system that they almost become more fundamentalist than those who have faith. While I do have faith, I think critical thinking and human reason is a gift from God, not something to be stamped out. Athiests are on their own journey through life, and whether or not they find faith is between them and God. Nothing is going to suddenly convince either athiests or believers to change their minds. So I don't find these threads particularly helpful.
I believe, in general, that most self-described athiests are actually agnostic. They approach life from an intellectual standpoint, what is "real" and "unreal". Having been an athiest/agnostic in the past, I sort of understand that line of thought. However, in my opinion, I think some athiests become so rigid in their own belief system that they almost become more fundamentalist than those who have faith. While I do have faith, I think critical thinking and human reason is a gift from God, not something to be stamped out. Athiests are on their own journey through life, and whether or not they find faith is between them and God. Nothing is going to suddenly convince either athiests or believers to change their minds. So I don't find these threads particularly helpful.
Pygoscelis
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Re: Question for atheists
I agree.
But it is fun to try to see the world from the other perspective.
I agree.
But it is fun to try to see the world from the other perspective.
Malaikah
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Re: Question for atheists
The Quran isnt a book of 101 reasons why Allah swt exists, it is a book of guidance the pious amongst mankind.
Also, it looses a lot of its touch when it is translated in to english- the Quran is actually the highest standard of arabic writting in the world.
The Quran isnt a book of 101 reasons why Allah swt exists, it is a book of guidance the pious amongst mankind.
Also, it looses a lot of its touch when it is translated in to english- the Quran is actually the highest standard of arabic writting in the world.
IzakHalevas
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Re: Question for atheists
Since I believe G-d to be "perfection", would an atheist not ask me how G-d was created from nothing? How could the human mind process the answer that G-d is everything and infinite?
Since I believe G-d to be "perfection", would an atheist not ask me how G-d was created from nothing? How could the human mind process the answer that G-d is everything and infinite?
Skillganon
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Re: Question for atheists
The problem with this type of argument is to look at it simply. Their is not amount of argument that will be sufficient to a person who has already decided on the conclusion.
Here's is the low down. I will break it up.
Creator:
1. He created everything.
2. He is uncreated.
Creation:
1. Has been created.
2. Came to be from nothing.
Theist put's the creator who created, everything.
Consider if one disclude a creator. (non-theist)
This will leave with:
1. The Universe came to be from nothing. or
2. Something existed in the beginning and it from certain process came to be the universe.
What will you notice is claiming position 1 will be quite hard to imagine without thinking of a creator in the equation.
Admitting position 2, will be admitting in essence something that existed in the biggining and that thing to be "uncreated".
That basicly simplifies it.
The problem with this type of argument is to look at it simply. Their is not amount of argument that will be sufficient to a person who has already decided on the conclusion.
Here's is the low down. I will break it up.
Creator:
1. He created everything.
2. He is uncreated.
Creation:
1. Has been created.
2. Came to be from nothing.
Theist put's the creator who created, everything.
Consider if one disclude a creator. (non-theist)
This will leave with:
1. The Universe came to be from nothing. or
2. Something existed in the beginning and it from certain process came to be the universe.
What will you notice is claiming position 1 will be quite hard to imagine without thinking of a creator in the equation.
Admitting position 2, will be admitting in essence something that existed in the biggining and that thing to be "uncreated".
That basicly simplifies it.
Last edited:
mysticalsilence
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Re: Question for atheists
Why is it easy to accept in science that the universe came out of nothing and not to further contemplate its origins and just accepting it has no cause. But when it comes to GOD it has to be explained.
I mean think about it if God dosent exists then we are stuck with no logical solution to reality and the origin of the universe and will never find one.
But if God does exist and created the Universe we have some kind awnser and we cannot subject the origins of God to a question that is limited to the God created reality itself.
If a child was in a large house with no means to escape.
And he grew in it up with everything he needed to survive in it.
What would make sense if you looked at this objectively and relate it to how we perceive and mesure things for this specific case.
A) The child(when older and mature) assumed the house came out of nothing and he some how got molded out of all the stuff in the house by chance over a period of time. And developped a few theories that are imcomplete but to his understanding "fall into place".
Or
B)The child(when older and mature) assumed he was placed there by a mother and father who chose to remain unperceived directly to him who also created the house and it was some sort of experiment or test.
To the child even when he grows old and mature either case is unprovable and he might be agnostic to how the house came about and how he exists.
But in these 2 cases specifically from an outsiders point of view case B or agnoticism makes more sense. And it would be stupid for the child to ask how exactly the mother and father came about when he cannot even fully understand his own existence yet. IF case B was true he will not even know of other houses and the fact that copulation is required for his own existence. He wouldent even have the basis to ask that question properly within his own reality let alone awnser it.
Now if you look at that house as the universe and the child as humanity.
This gives you an objective view on this topic and if you look at it objectively Athiesm does not make sense and agnosticism or beleif in God does .
Why is it easy to accept in science that the universe came out of nothing and not to further contemplate its origins and just accepting it has no cause. But when it comes to GOD it has to be explained.
I mean think about it if God dosent exists then we are stuck with no logical solution to reality and the origin of the universe and will never find one.
But if God does exist and created the Universe we have some kind awnser and we cannot subject the origins of God to a question that is limited to the God created reality itself.
If a child was in a large house with no means to escape.
And he grew in it up with everything he needed to survive in it.
What would make sense if you looked at this objectively and relate it to how we perceive and mesure things for this specific case.
A) The child(when older and mature) assumed the house came out of nothing and he some how got molded out of all the stuff in the house by chance over a period of time. And developped a few theories that are imcomplete but to his understanding "fall into place".
Or
B)The child(when older and mature) assumed he was placed there by a mother and father who chose to remain unperceived directly to him who also created the house and it was some sort of experiment or test.
To the child even when he grows old and mature either case is unprovable and he might be agnostic to how the house came about and how he exists.
But in these 2 cases specifically from an outsiders point of view case B or agnoticism makes more sense. And it would be stupid for the child to ask how exactly the mother and father came about when he cannot even fully understand his own existence yet. IF case B was true he will not even know of other houses and the fact that copulation is required for his own existence. He wouldent even have the basis to ask that question properly within his own reality let alone awnser it.
Now if you look at that house as the universe and the child as humanity.
This gives you an objective view on this topic and if you look at it objectively Athiesm does not make sense and agnosticism or beleif in God does .
Trumble
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Re: Question for atheists
It isn't easy to accept that in science, and considerable contemplation on the subject continues. 'Out of nothing' is a gross over-simplification, too.
And if He does we are stuck with no logical (or indeed any) solution to the origin of God, so postulating God solves nothing; it just adds another layer to the original problem. The unvarying answer is to define God as 'first cause' in some way, which has a considerable number of logical problems of its own. The unvarying answer to that is to stick God in some sort of catagory which allow those problems to be ignored - which leads to the inverse of your own question, why is it easy to accept that God came out of nothing and not to further contemplate His origins and just accepting He has no cause?
It isn't easy to accept that in science, and considerable contemplation on the subject continues. 'Out of nothing' is a gross over-simplification, too.
And if He does we are stuck with no logical (or indeed any) solution to the origin of God, so postulating God solves nothing; it just adds another layer to the original problem. The unvarying answer is to define God as 'first cause' in some way, which has a considerable number of logical problems of its own. The unvarying answer to that is to stick God in some sort of catagory which allow those problems to be ignored - which leads to the inverse of your own question, why is it easy to accept that God came out of nothing and not to further contemplate His origins and just accepting He has no cause?
root
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Re: Question for atheists
I don't see how we are stuck at all, perhaps "God" might just be someone you never really expected:
Consider at least one of these propositions must be true:
1. Almost all civilisations at our level of development become extinct before becoming technologically mature.
2. The fraction of technologically mature civilisations that are interested in creating ancestor simulations is almost zero.
3. You are almost certainly living in a computer simulation.
If you accept any of the above conclusions then you are almost certainly living in a simulated mind within a simulated universe within a simulation running on a computer with awesome computing power, so powerful that a fraction of processing time would allow for an infinate number of calculations containing an infinate number of simulated minds.
Alternatively, you could consider "Him" as our god which again upholds logic as a reasonable assumption, just like religous folk do.
http://www.venganza.org/
I don't see how we are stuck at all, perhaps "God" might just be someone you never really expected:
Consider at least one of these propositions must be true:
1. Almost all civilisations at our level of development become extinct before becoming technologically mature.
2. The fraction of technologically mature civilisations that are interested in creating ancestor simulations is almost zero.
3. You are almost certainly living in a computer simulation.
If you accept any of the above conclusions then you are almost certainly living in a simulated mind within a simulated universe within a simulation running on a computer with awesome computing power, so powerful that a fraction of processing time would allow for an infinate number of calculations containing an infinate number of simulated minds.
Alternatively, you could consider "Him" as our god which again upholds logic as a reasonable assumption, just like religous folk do.
http://www.venganza.org/
Pygoscelis
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Re: Question for atheists
It is quite freeing to simply admit you don't know. I don't understand why that is so hard for some people.
We only stick that to you when you tell us that God is the only possibility. The true possibilities are as variant as your imagination and probably more.
Just because your mind is currently unable to conceive of a logical solution, doesn't mean that there isn't one. Don't fall into the fallacy that because you can't think of an answer there is none.
No you don't. You've only moved the question one step. If God created the universe, who created God? If upper God created lower God who created Upper God, and so on. You've solved nothing. You've only complicated matters.
It is quite freeing to simply admit you don't know. I don't understand why that is so hard for some people.
We only stick that to you when you tell us that God is the only possibility. The true possibilities are as variant as your imagination and probably more.
Just because your mind is currently unable to conceive of a logical solution, doesn't mean that there isn't one. Don't fall into the fallacy that because you can't think of an answer there is none.
No you don't. You've only moved the question one step. If God created the universe, who created God? If upper God created lower God who created Upper God, and so on. You've solved nothing. You've only complicated matters.
MuslimCONVERT
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Re: Question for atheists
The fact is The Big Bang proves that there is a God because it states that the universe came from nothing.
In 1929 Dr. Hubble discovered that the universe is expanding.
The expansion of the universe means, ultimately that the universe had a focal point. Imagine the Universe as a balloon being blown up and dots are drawn on the balloon representing galaxies and planets and stars. This mental image is not unlike how the universe is working right now. Now imagine that, instead of blowing up the balloon, we let the air out and watch it contract. This is like watching "big bang" in reverse.
now lets say we are starting from the point where our balloon galaxy is retracted. At this point in the big bang this is called the "monoblock." In other words, all of the matter in the universe started from 1 big chunk, or monoblock.
Now this is important. Because if all the matter in the universe existed in one place at one time, in this so-called monoblock, the gravity would be so immense, that it would collapse on top of itself, and it would have zero volume. I.E. nothing.
Then this explosion occured, like the Qu'ran says in chapter 21:30, and as a result, the universe is expanding, as the Qu'ran says in chapter 51:47.
The fact is The Big Bang proves that there is a God because it states that the universe came from nothing.
In 1929 Dr. Hubble discovered that the universe is expanding.
The expansion of the universe means, ultimately that the universe had a focal point. Imagine the Universe as a balloon being blown up and dots are drawn on the balloon representing galaxies and planets and stars. This mental image is not unlike how the universe is working right now. Now imagine that, instead of blowing up the balloon, we let the air out and watch it contract. This is like watching "big bang" in reverse.
now lets say we are starting from the point where our balloon galaxy is retracted. At this point in the big bang this is called the "monoblock." In other words, all of the matter in the universe started from 1 big chunk, or monoblock.
Now this is important. Because if all the matter in the universe existed in one place at one time, in this so-called monoblock, the gravity would be so immense, that it would collapse on top of itself, and it would have zero volume. I.E. nothing.
Then this explosion occured, like the Qu'ran says in chapter 21:30, and as a result, the universe is expanding, as the Qu'ran says in chapter 51:47.
Trumble
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Re: Question for atheists
Don't get too hung up on the 'from nothing', it's a gross over-simplification that is most likely wrong (although you may well get into uncharted territory as to what actually constitutes "something"). Either way, there is no chain scientific of reasoning that leads to God, let alone proves he exists. And yet again, of course, the question as to where God might have come from is conveniently set aside. In relation to ultimate origins, the God hypothesis solves nothing.
A lot of this stuff just can't be dumbed down too far, let alone cherry picked, while still being understood (as far as anyone does understand it) - let alone trying to draw conclusions from it regarding God.
Don't get too hung up on the 'from nothing', it's a gross over-simplification that is most likely wrong (although you may well get into uncharted territory as to what actually constitutes "something"). Either way, there is no chain scientific of reasoning that leads to God, let alone proves he exists. And yet again, of course, the question as to where God might have come from is conveniently set aside. In relation to ultimate origins, the God hypothesis solves nothing.
A lot of this stuff just can't be dumbed down too far, let alone cherry picked, while still being understood (as far as anyone does understand it) - let alone trying to draw conclusions from it regarding God.
Re: Question for atheists
I don't believe in any religion, but I do respect people that do I don't know if that makes me an Athiest, probably does, but to me, I just don't understand how people can't think for themselves. I am kind to everyone and everything. I don't need to know why I am here, and where I will go when I die (even though I am scared to death of dieing cause I love my family and friends). I don't understand why people follow restrictions from years ago, and try to put them into their life now. Times back then were so different to times now.. guess I am just rambling lol.. but honestly it just suprises me.
take care
I don't believe in any religion, but I do respect people that do
I don't know if that makes me an Athiest, probably does, but to me, I just don't understand how people can't think for themselves. I am kind to everyone and everything. I don't need to know why I am here, and where I will go when I die (even though I am scared to death of dieing cause I love my family and friends). I don't understand why people follow restrictions from years ago, and try to put them into their life now. Times back then were so different to times now.. guess I am just rambling lol.. but honestly it just suprises me.take care
glo
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Re: Question for atheists
I agree that blindly following any doctrine, whether religious or otherwise, without thinking for yourself is very dangerous indeed!
Welcome to LI!
Peace
Hi BlakroseI don't believe in any religion, but I do respect people that do
take care
I agree that blindly following any doctrine, whether religious or otherwise, without thinking for yourself is very dangerous indeed!
Welcome to LI!
Peace