Question about Jews in the Quran...

[FollowingAlhuda]

The Quran says that the Jews took Ezra to be the son of God. Can somebody please get some specific information about this? In the tafseer (Or does someone know the surah where this comes from)
Or about the Islamic view at Jews?
I really need this anwsers. Someone asked me about this. I hope that Insha Allah someone has the anwsers.

Wassalam

Aouatif

 

[Malaikah]

Here is what someone explained in another thread:

I think it has to be understood that the Ayah which mentions Ezra and the belief that he is the son of Allah, refers specifically to the Jews in Medina (and possibly other places in Arabia) who held that belief. Muhammad Asad (a Jew who converted to Islam) explains it in his commentary on the Qur'an:

As regards the belief attributed to the Jews that Ezra (or, in the Arabicized form of this name, `Uzayr) was "God's son", it is to be noted that almost all classical commentators of the Qur'an agree in that only the Jews of Arabia, and not all Jews, have been thus accused. (According to a Tradition on the authority of Ibn `Abbas - quoted by Tabari in his commentary on this verse - some of the Jews of Medina once said to Muhammad, "How could we follow thee when thou hast forsaken our qiblah and dost not consider Ezra a son of God?")

So one shouldn't think this means that the Qur'an claims that todays Jews believe in Ezra as Allah's son. As rav explained, they don't.

 

[Skillganon]

Sis do a search on the forum. You most likey to find the topic in the refutation section.

 

[rav]

I'm sorry but some of these "refutations" are just ridiculous. I'm still waiting for reliable proof on the subject, that any Jew ever viewed Ezra as a "god".

 

[Malaikah]

Please explain to me how this is ridiculous?

Muhammad Asad (a Jew who converted to Islam) explains it in his commentary on the Qur'an:

As regards the belief attributed to the Jews that Ezra (or, in the Arabicized form of this name, `Uzayr) was "God's son", it is to be noted that almost all classical commentators of the Qur'an agree in that only the Jews of Arabia, and not all Jews, have been thus accused. (According to a Tradition on the authority of Ibn `Abbas - quoted by Tabari in his commentary on this verse - some of the Jews of Medina once said to Muhammad, "How could we follow thee when thou hast forsaken our qiblah and dost not consider Ezra a son of God?")
​

 

[rav]

Muhammad Asad (a Jew who converted to Islam) explains it in his commentary on the Qur'an:

As regards the belief attributed to the Jews that Ezra (or, in the Arabicized form of this name, `Uzayr) was "God's son", it is to be noted that almost all classical commentators of the Qur'an agree in that only the Jews of Arabia, and not all Jews, have been thus accused. (According to a Tradition on the authority of Ibn `Abbas - quoted by Tabari in his commentary on this verse - some of the Jews of Medina once said to Muhammad, "How could we follow thee when thou hast forsaken our qiblah and dost not consider Ezra a son of God?")
​

But I have found no unbiased source who has no interest in the descion to say this "worship" ever occured. The fact is that there is no documentary evidence to support this claim. It is a "claim".

 

[truthbetold]

Surah 9 Verse 30 is where it is mentioned in the Quran...

And the Jews say:Uzair(Ezra) is the son of Allah, and the Christians say:Messiah is the son of Allah. That is their saying with their mouths, resembling the saying of those who disbeileved aforetime. Allah's curse be on them, how they are deluded away from the truth!

 

[Abu Zakariya]

rav

...we can deduce that the inhabitants of Hijaz during Muhammad's time knew portions, at least, of 3 Enoch in association with the Jews. The angels over which Metatron becomes chief are identified in the Enoch traditions as the sons of God, the Bene Elohim, the Watchers, the fallen ones as the causer of the flood. In 1 Enoch, and 4 Ezra, the term Son of God can be applied to the Messiah, but most often it is applied to the righteous men, of whom Jewish tradition holds there to be no more righteous than the ones God elected to translate to heaven alive. It is easy, then, to imagine that among the Jews of the Hijaz who were apparently involved in mystical speculations associated with the merkabah, Ezra, because of the traditions of his translation, because of his piety, and particularly because he was equated with Enoch as the Scribe of God, could be termed one of the Bene Elohim. And, of course, he would fit the description of religious leader (one of the ahbar of the Qur'an 9:31) whom the Jews had exalted.

Source: G. D. Newby, A History Of The Jews Of Arabia, 1988, University Of South Carolina Press, p. 59.

Just because you haven't found an unbiased source that confirms this doesn't mean that it doesn't exist.

 

[IzakHalevas]

rav

...we can deduce that the inhabitants of Hijaz during Muhammad's time knew portions, at least, of 3 Enoch in association with the Jews. The angels over which Metatron becomes chief are identified in the Enoch traditions as the sons of God, the Bene Elohim, the Watchers, the fallen ones as the causer of the flood. In 1 Enoch, and 4 Ezra, the term Son of God can be applied to the Messiah, but most often it is applied to the righteous men, of whom Jewish tradition holds there to be no more righteous than the ones God elected to translate to heaven alive. It is easy, then, to imagine that among the Jews of the Hijaz who were apparently involved in mystical speculations associated with the merkabah, Ezra, because of the traditions of his translation, because of his piety, and particularly because he was equated with Enoch as the Scribe of God, could be termed one of the Bene Elohim. And, of course, he would fit the description of religious leader (one of the ahbar of the Qur'an 9:31) whom the Jews had exalted.

Source: G. D. Newby, A History Of The Jews Of Arabia, 1988, University Of South Carolina Press, p. 59.

Just because you haven't found an unbiased source that confirms this doesn't mean that it doesn't exist.

How is this an unbiased source?

 

[Abu Zakariya]

How is this an unbiased source?

Well, rav asked for a source that has no interest in the descion to say this "worship" ever occured

I don't see why Gordon Darnell Newby, a non-Muslim, would have a secret agenda or something.

 

[IzakHalevas]

Well, rav asked for a source that has no interest in the descion to say this "worship" ever occured

I don't see why Gordon Darnell Newby, a non-Muslim, would have a secret agenda or something.

Is he a non-Muslim? I do not know, he certainly has a lot of written work on Islam. If he is not a Muslim he certainly has an obsession or loving for Islamic history.

Did he not write this?

http://store.talkislam.com/b8099.html

 

[Abu Zakariya]

Is he a non-Muslim? I do not know, he certainly has a lot of written work on Islam. If he is not a Muslim he certainly has an obsession or loving for Islamic history.

Did he not write this?

http://store.talkislam.com/b8099.html

Ah, so your theory is that every person that studies in the field of orientalism or Islamic history is Muslim? Come on.
Look at his CV:

North Carolina State University Summer Teacher Institute for Jewish History, Culture, and Religion.

Is he a Jew as well?

 

[IzakHalevas]

Ah, so your theory is that every person that studies in the field of orientalism or Islamic history is Muslim? Come on.

I was just pointing this out, we have no idea of knowing what his intentions are, but he does write a lot about Islam and gets a lot of his books sold in Islamic stores, especially for a "kafir".

 

[Goku]

I was just pointing this out, we have no idea of knowing what his intentions are, but he does write a lot about Islam and gets a lot of his books sold in Islamic stores, especially for a "kafir".

Karen Armstrong and Maurice Bacille get their books sold in a lot of Islamic bookships and internet wesites/shops. But neither are Muslim, well i cant say for certain with Maurice but im quite sure Karen isnt.

 

[Abu Zakariya]

I was just pointing this out, we have no idea of knowing what his intentions are, but he does write a lot about Islam and gets a lot of his books sold in Islamic stores, especially for a "kafir".

So basically your saying that whatever source I give you, it's not okay since "we don't know this guy's intention"? It's an interesting way to debate. One demands a source who has no interest in the decision, and when a source is brought, then you simply dismiss it by saying "well, we don't really know his intention".

but he does write a lot about Islam

He writes a lot about Judaism and Jews as well.

and gets a lot of his books sold in Islamic stores

Really? This claim is really interesting. A lot of his books, eh? In Islamic stores, huh? Well, I only saw one of his book sold in one Islamic store. You really stretched the truth there, didn't you?

 

[IzakHalevas]

Karen Armstrong and Maurice Bacille get their books sold in a lot of Islamic bookships and internet wesites/shops. But neither are Muslim, well i cant say for certain with Maurice but im quite sure Karen isnt.

I'll do some research to see what religion he is, and I will post whatever I find.

He writes a lot about Judaism and Jews as well.

In Arab countries, with Arab influences on them.. Everything he writes on Judaism is relative to its relationship to Islam I believe.

So basically your saying that whatever source I give you, it's not okay since "we don't know this guy's intention"? It's an interesting way to debate. One demands a source who has no interest in the decision, and when a source is brought, then you simply dismiss it by saying "well, we don't really know his intention".

I think you are confusing me with "Rav". I believe that a source would be a document from the time showing the worship happend within a sect of the Jewish Arabian community, not a mans opinion in his book especially when the logic he uses to come to his conclusion of the areas jews being involved in "mysticism and some how realting it to the term "son of god" makes no sense at all.

 

[Goku]

I'll do some research to see what religion he is, and I will post whatever I find.

He was a Christian when he wrote the book: "The Bible, the Qur'an and modern Science"

I couldnt find any source claiming he reverted to Islam, but we'll see what u can come up with.

 

[Abu Zakariya]

In Arab countries, with Arab influences on them.. Everything he writes on Judaism is relative to its relationship to Islam I believe.

First of all, that is something you just made up. Again, on his CV under "HONORS, GRANTS AND AWARDS" you find this: "Phillips Research Fellow in Jewish Studies, St. John's University, 1991-2." and this "North Carolina State University Summer Teacher Institute for Jewish History, Culture, and Religion".
Second of all, orientalism is his field, of course he is going to write about that subject and Jewish-Muslim relations is something many people find interesting, so he writes about that. That doesn't make him a Muslim.

I believe that a source would be a document from the time showing the worship happend within a sect of the Jewish Arabian community

Well, it is. But you refuse to accept it on the account that Muslims recorded it.

not a mans opinion in his book

Yes, this is just some random guy who wrote a book without any credentials.

Anyways, I gave you guys a secular source. If you refuse to accept it, that's your choice.

 

[IzakHalevas]

But your secular source makes no sense. That is why I am disputing it.

He says: involved in mystical speculations associated with the merkabah to somehow link together why the Jews of Arabia would worship Ezra. Yet that makes zero sense at all!

Do you know what the merkabah is? I have no clue how the author could relate to speculations of the merkabah to have anything at all to do with Ezra or worship of a "son of god".

 

[Abu Zakariya]

But your secular source makes no sense. That is why I am disputing it.

That's not what you said a few posts back. You said that he isn't unbiased because we don't know his real intentions. You just changed your story.

Do you know what the merkabah is? I have no clue how the author could relate to speculations of the merkabah to have anything at all to do with Ezra or worship of a "son of god".

Taken from Wikipedia:

The Hebrew word Merkabah is used in Ezekiel (1:4-26) to refer to the throne-chariot of God, the four-wheeled vehicle driven by four chayot "living creatures", each of which has four wings and four faces (of a man, lion, ox, and eagle). In medieval Judaism, the beginning of the book of Ezekiel was regarded as the most mystical passage in the Bible, and its study was discouraged, except by mature individuals with an extensive grounding in the study of traditional Jewish texts.

Now, the author discusses the mystical speculations associated with the merkabah, amongst medieval Jews. If you take a look at what I just quoted from Wikipedia, you will see that it makes perfect sense. Medieval Jews, according to Wikipedia and the author, saw these passages from a mystical perspective.