Independent Kurdistan...

[Darkseid]

I'm sorry if my grammar cannot be understood, but I seriously need the edit feature added into this thread or the forum this thread belongs to.

 

[AHMED_GUREY]

Why would the Kurds be anymore likely to disappear anymore than the Native American Indian? Certainly their land has been taken from them. Another form of government and language has become the dominant of the land they live in, and they are free to assimilate, many of them having chosen to do so. And yet, they still exist as a separate ethnic group within the larger culture. Many maintainin their old ways, not just in language and culture, but in their entire lifestyle. If this can happen living in the middle of a culture that seems to be taking over the whole world, why could Kurds living in Iraq, Turkey and other places still maintain their own identity?

Why would the Kurds feel relief in your analogy of the Native Americans and present day US? when the natives themselves would rather have there lands back and become there own Nation, why should the Kurds accept the partitioning of their lands while others enjoy the fruits of having their own state?

One does not need a country to maintain one's identity. Just look at the Jews. Though they have their "own" country today (and I don't choose to go back 60 years to debate whether that was a good or bad idea) they survived for 1900 years without a country, and despite the evil intentions of Hitler and Stalin, I am convinced would have continued to have survived even without the creation of a homeland.

''Jews'' like ''muslims'' are not a homogenous ethnic group or a race they are followers of a religion and jews although not as diverse as muslims will differ culturally from country to country and have their own distinct identities also you should look up the Kingdoms of Khazaria and Himyar that were ruled by Jews

 

[Akil]

hehehehe the poll is not accurate. I accidentally hit I am a Muslim and I oppose instead of non Muslim and oppose and I couldn’t find a way to change it lol

 

[north_malaysian]

hehehehe the poll is not accurate. I accidentally hit I am a Muslim and I oppose instead of non Muslim and oppose and I couldn’t find a way to change it lol

maybe the mods can help doing something?

 

[Mezier]

Why would the Kurds be anymore likely to disappear anymore than the Native American Indian? Certainly their land has been taken from them. Another form of government and language has become the dominant of the land they live in, and they are free to assimilate, many of them having chosen to do so. And yet, they still exist as a separate ethnic group within the larger culture. Many maintainin their old ways, not just in language and culture, but in their entire lifestyle. If this can happen living in the middle of a culture that seems to be taking over the whole world, why could Kurds living in Iraq, Turkey and other places still maintain their own identity? One does not need a country to maintain one's identity. Just look at the Jews. Though they have their "own" country today (and I don't choose to go back 60 years to debate whether that was a good or bad idea) they survived for 1900 years without a country, and despite the evil intentions of Hitler and Stalin, I am convinced would have continued to have survived even without the creation of a homeland.

Dont know what you're speaking of...but when one thinks "The Americas" the last thing that comes to mind are the Native Americans. Open your eyes. The Natives have almost lost their identity. Where they should be a majority, they are actually a minority - they account for 1% (!!) of the total population of the US according to a 2004 census. I admit. I dont know much about the Natives, but like brother Ahmed said: their situation brings no relief from oppresion.

No. But I do not understand how this applies to the topic being discussed. Are you suggesting that without a homeland that 1000s of Kurdish women will be raped? Are 1000s of Kurdish women being raped presently?

Are you purposely dancing around my words or the my point just swoosh by your ears. Let me clarify:

I asked this question, Just because 1000's of women have been raped before, is this valid justification to permit another women to be raped? The answer is obviously "no". Why? Because it is an immoral act.

Now apply the same principle to the us. Just because other cultures have been suppresed, assimilated, forgotten their own individuality, and lost their history, do you think it is right to let it happen again?

 

[Skillganon]

Where is Kurdistan?

I also think that arabic language should be one of the language learnt since it is the language of the Quran.

I am all for Shariah Law.

Anyway I don't know much about Kurdistan for an independent country. I seen to many middle-east independent countries that spit venom at each other and turn their back since they are not from their country.

 

[Akil]

This should probably be in fiqh topics but it has been mentioned here so many times so I will address it here.

Why do ymany of you keep saying countries should be sharia even though you can’t produce a real working sharia since not long after the time of nabi Mohammad (peace and blessings be upon him)?

Do you appreciate the injustices committed in the name of sharia?

 

[Skillganon]

This should probably be in fiqh topics but it has been mentioned here so many times so I will address it here.

Why do ymany of you keep saying countries should be sharia even though you can’t produce a real working sharia since not long after the time of nabi Mohammad (peace and blessings be upon him)?

Do you appreciate the injustices committed in the name of sharia?

Injustice int he name of Allah/shariah democracy, freedom, liberalism is not permissable when itself is contradictory to what Allah(s.w.t) has ordained.

If one is talking about miscarriage than that is a seperate issue that needs to be talked else where, however it does not mean one should not or try to apply the Shariah(Islam).

 

[Akil]

however it does not mean one should not or try to apply the Shariah(Islam).

Because we have so many awesome examples right? Iran, Saudi Arabia, certain countries in Africa, what else am I missing?

Do you think these countries are reflective of true sharia?

If every country that installs sharia installs a false or misguided sharia you just keep turning them out anyway?

 

[Skillganon]

Because we have so many awesome examples right? Iran, Saudi Arabia, certain countries in Africa, what else am I missing?

Do you think these countries are reflective of true sharia?

If every country that installs sharia installs a false or misguided sharia you just keep turning them out anyway?

Not really, that is because their are people who try to undermine it everytime when people try poltically and millitary.
Their is nothing wrong with the Shariah Law.

IF you wan't to talk about miscarriage of Law than their is plenty of miscarriage with man made law not to mention injustice and bias, it is better to carry this on another thread.

 

[abdil han]

salam all,

i wanna talk about kurdistan,not much about shariah,

i m a turk n living in turkey,there are more than 10 million kurds in my country and we are living in peace,
they have what we have,there is not a seperation or an unequalism,so no need to be a different country,,i have many kurdish friends,,non of them wanna be independent,,,if all these kurds want independent,,it s very hard to stop them,but just a small percentage of them wants this,,and they killed 35 000 innocent for this aim in the last 25 years in turkey...

beside,the map which a bro posted before is nt completely true,,those cities are nt purely kurdish living areas,at least half of the populations are turks,and also kurds are living in every city in turkey,so we can nt make a seperation in this...

beside,about talabani's ideas on northern irak; they moved by thousands to kerkuk in the last couple years n now they wanna make a counting to declare that Kerkuk is a kurdish city,,this is not right n i want u to know that Kerkuk has the largest oil reserves in irak!!!

we splitted enough,,no need for more!

assalamu aleykum

 

[Grace Seeker]

It isn't as much of a big deal as you think it is.



Actually it isn't a matter of history, it is a matter of what god had told me.



If we don't correct it, we'll all die in the future, because of it.



You are being ridiculous. People just want to not be oppressed by other people. And why are you being so eager to demonize the Kurds? The Kurds are decendents of Noah, right? Like the Arabs right? They are your cousins, they have same ancestor as you. So stop treating them and everyone like vermin.



Why don't you just stop being so racist about it?

Kurdistan will come to reality and there is nothing you can do to stop it.

Accept it and grow up.

The Kurds are not trying to take over the world. Individual clans are not trying to seperate into smaller clans.

You are paranoid to the max and need something to calm your nerves. Maybe reading a civil rights book might do you some good.

There is more harm in not allowing the Kurds to establish their independence than there is oppressing them against their will into a super Arab state that controls everything and everyone. Where the Arabic language is the language of the world, which is no more advance than Persian, English, Chinese, Spanish, Russian, and all those other simpleminded languages (expressed vaguely as though created by created, but in reality by man).

The same can be said if we had the Jews or Americans controlling the world, where you have Hebrew or English dominated how we should speak rather allowing ourselves to live in a society that we ourselves can live peacefully and harmonistically.



No they aren't. Expansionism is evil, Nationalism is not.



You don't have to act paranoid. I already know you have no idea as to what pacificism and oppression are about.



Well there goes your evidence. Nice to know that was just so easily thrown out of the window.



And that's evil because?



Was Kurdistan founded by Jews or Muslims? Are there Kurdish muslims? Does it say in the Koran that segregation is evil?

Israel isn't evil. Zionism is evil, but Israel isn't. It was justifiable territorial adjustment made by the British Government which at the time owned almost the whole globe. They had the right since Allah gave them the globe to do what they want to the Arabs in that area. Otherwise, don't you think Allah would have done something about it? Unless he was angry enough at the Arabs to not care about them?

By the way, segregation does not involve the establishment of



Then why do you encourage the opposite?



And you think overcrowding a city with immigrants would make that city more peaceful? Or mixing a society with communist Chinese and anti-communsity Jordans would make that society everlasting?

I know you don't many harm. But aren't at the level we need to be to work towards a United Earth Republic or a United Middle East Republic or whatever.



Well that is how it is throughout the entire middle-east and has been for over four thousand years. The Kurds were oppressed by virtually everyone, regardless if they were Arab, Turk, Sumerian, Babylonian, Assyrian, Persian, Iranian (most of which are Persians), Greek, Roman, Akkadian, British, or even Hittite. All they want is to no longer be oppressed and to have a small era of self-independence.

You see my idea is to have a two-hundred year time of self-independence where people could work out their own problems and then join into a Global Union that would then tolerate each other and live peacefully.



Well they could go to Antartica, but they would all die from the freezing cold.



The great flood of Noah is a terrific contradiction of that.

Allah has in the past kill off entire civilizations or allow them to be killed off, which is basically the same thing. But the reason why doesn't is because of a greater good that he represents that is bounded to the survival of the human species. That is something you have to understand if you really want humanity to exist in a liberalized community or a community where everyone lives in the same country.



The Native Americans were mercilessly killed off by diseases as much as they were by guns if not more so.

The Jews weren't as badly killed off by the holocaust as they make it out to be. We keep forgetting that slavs, gypsies, and other individuals were also targets of Nazism. And before then, virtually everyone became a target of slaughter if they looked different from everyone else.



You are ignoring the bigger picture here. The truth of the matter is Allah could have made it stopped, but then what would happen? He would have to force it to stop again? And again. And again.

Allah would rather have us learn from our mistakes than to be our protector. Plus there could have been greater endangerments that could have arisen if he did got involved.

Like if he just threw a meteor into the atlantic and just a small one to scare away Columbus, then perhaps in the future Hitler manages to conquer all of Europe and then the rest of the world and the Natives were virtually killed off entirely rather than being reduced to a few hundred thousand.

So you have to remember the greater good and the reality to why things are progresses as they are under Allah's eyes.



No there wasn't. The state of Israel was base on prophecy given several times by Allah to different individuals. It is cited in the Torah and in the Bible and is a clue to signal a period of time prior to the apocalypse. So it is suppose to exist. There is purpose for it as one of the many battle grounds between Isa's reincarnation and the false prophet.



And why is that?



But there is a French State, a German state, a Russian state, a Chinese Communist state, a North Korean Communist State, a Vietnamese state, the Saudi Arabs have their own state, the Egyptians have their own state, and so on. So why can't the Kurds have their own state if these people have their own?

And by the way the Kurds are not Christains, most of them are muslims.



But already have with my previous arguments. Therfore, why should I bother?



Nations are never evil. And calling them evil is an act of racism, because you are calling their people evil by calling the nation that are a part of evil. The reason why I say this is because not everyone within the same country supports the same ideas. A lot of the time there are great disagreements, some which lead directly into a civil war.



I know. But they have to realize that we are suppose to have differences, otherwise we would be boring. It would be so boring to have a world full of Nazis.



The Native Americans are not Indians. They are more closer related to the Tibetans.



True, but of a group of people want to create their country then aren't they entitled to do so? It is their land, their lives, their children, their people, and all they want is to take care of themselves.



Doesn't have to be presently. Simply having 10,000 Kurdish women raped anually should be enough to consider how bad things are and I bet they happen to be much worse than that in Turkey.

Darkseid,

You have done me several injustices in your above post, and I respectfully ask that you correct those which can be corrected.

The first of those is one that should be easy to correct. You made a very long post, with many quotes. The first of those (and some subsequent ones) were taken from a post I made. I am quite willing to own my statements, even if later I am corrected on them I did initially say them. But not all of the quotes in the post are statements I made. They are from other posters. Indeed some of those quotes are ones that I actually disagree with. Yet, you have only posted in such a way that my name is listed and none of the others are identified with their comments. Thus it looks like all of those posts are mine. Please edit your post to correct this. If you do not know how to do this, ask a mod for assistance or eliminate the post. I would not want others to think that all of the views listed therein are my views when they are not.



Second, you have accused me of trying to demonize the Kurds. I don't think that I have said anything against a Kurd in this whole topic, or any other topic.

Third, you have stated that the Kurds are my cousins. On what basis do you make this statement? I suppose it could be said that the entire world is cousins, if that is what you meant, then it is true. But beyond that, you are using hyperbole that does not apply.

You accuse me of treating the Kurds like vermin. I don't understand why you have that view. I do not desire to get rid of the Kurds, and do not believe I have said anything that could even be misinterpreted this way except by one who chose to read into my posts that which is simply not there.

You accuse me of being racist. Again, on what grounds please? To my knowledge, I have never met a Kurd. I would not know how to distinguish a Kurd from any other human being. I would not object if I learned that a person seeking to move in next door to me, who worked with me, who choose to marry one of my daughters was a Kurd. I don't believe in the establishment of an independent Kurdistan, but it has nothing to do with ethnicity. Quite the contrary, it seems to me that seeking to establish a country based solely on culture and ethnicity would be to use race as a determining factor. Would that not be the racist position?

I have never suggested that Kurds are trying to take over the world.

In what ways am I beling paranoid? Do you think I fear Kurds or feel under attack from them? I do not.

What type of civil rights book do you suggest I read? How about one that does not make assumptions regarding other people that one does not know? Would that be an appropriate books for this conversation?

Are you aware that my country has supported efforts to provide an autonomous goverment for the Kurds of Iraq? Are you aware that I have personal friends who, though not Kurds themselves, live in Iraqi-Kurdistan? They tell me nothing but good and positive things about their experience. And they like you support the formation of an new state of Kurdistan. And though I disagree with them when we have discussed this, they have never accused me of any of the things you have.

You make comments which suggest that I want to "oppress" the Kurds into some sort of super Arab state. I want no such thing.

In mixing comments that I made with comments which others made, you seem to have channelled all those who are againts a Kurdish nation into one megalithic idea in your own mind. But we have different reasons for our views, even if they come to the same conclusion. Please direct your arguments to those who own those view points. I certainly do not own them all, and do not like being labeled with such a broad brush. For making assumptions about me and my character, for stating things about me which are not true, and for attacking me for viewpoints which I do not hold, I believe I deserve and apology. However, I will be statisfied if you simply edit your posts so that others can see which ideas of mine you have critiqued are truly mine and not someone else's. Thank-you.

 

[Mezier]

salam all,

i wanna talk about kurdistan

Do so. But dont leave out important facts.

they have what we have,there is not a seperation or an unequalism,so no need to be a different country

The Kurds arent even recognized under the Turkish constitution. Just until about 10 years ago it was ILLEGAL to speak Kurdish. Turkish newspapers were shutdown by the government because they would mention Kurdish suffering - Anything that has the word "kurdish" in it is seen as a form of "terrorism" in Turkey. Ive been to Turkey many times, and when Im there I dont speak Kurdish ANYWHERE except in the kurdish cities...I dont even feel safe speaking in the airport!

and they killed 35 000 innocent for this aim in the last 25 years in turkey...

This is where you fail to mention what Turkey has done...

According to the Turkey's very own parliament:
-In 1999, the death toll of Kurds killed in Turkish military operations increased to over 40,000
-The destruction of 6,000 Kurdish villages
-And the displacement of 3,000,000 Kurds

People have estimated that over 500,000 Kurds have been killed over the years at the hands of the Turks

beside,about talabani's ideas on northern irak; they moved by thousands to kerkuk in the last couple years n now they wanna make a counting to declare that Kerkuk is a kurdish city,,this is not right n i want u to know that Kerkuk has the largest oil reserves in irak!!!

we splitted enough,,no need for more!

assalamu aleykum

Again you fail to mention the "Arabisation" that took place in the 1980's under Saddam. Prior to the 1980's, Kurds were the MAJORITY in Kirkuk (and other cities). But Saddam Hussien, during his Anfal campaign, kicked out the Kurds and replaced them with Arabs from the south - hence, "arabisation". These Arabs were actually given incentives and BENEFITS to move to Kurdish cities, in order to sway and modify the demographics (population). Now that we finally have some say in the Government of Iraq, a lot of Kurds are FINALLY getting back the land that they once owned. There is nothing wrong with this. Even if it means that Kirkuk is a Kurdish city - because this is the truth.

 

[abdil han]

The Kurds arent even recognized under the Turkish constitution. Just until about 10 years ago it was ILLEGAL to speak Kurdish. Turkish newspapers were shutdown by the government because they would mention Kurdish suffering - Anything that has the word "kurdish" in it is seen as a form of "terrorism" in Turkey. Ive been to Turkey many times, and when Im there I dont speak Kurdish ANYWHERE except in the kurdish cities...I dont even feel safe speaking in the airport!


This is where you fail to mention what Turkey has done...

According to the Turkey's very own parliament:
-In 1999, the death toll of Kurds killed in Turkish military operations increased to over 40,000
-The destruction of 6,000 Kurdish villages
-And the displacement of 3,000,000 Kurds

People have estimated that over 500,000 Kurds have been killed over the years at the hands of the Turks


Again you fail to mention the "Arabisation" that took place in the 1980's under Saddam. Prior to the 1980's, Kurds were the MAJORITY in Kirkuk (and other cities). But Saddam Hussien, during his Anfal campaign, kicked out the Kurds and replaced them with Arabs from the south - hence, "arabisation". These Arabs were actually given incentives and BENEFITS to move to Kurdish cities, in order to sway and modify the demographics (population). Now that we finally have some say in the Government of Iraq, a lot of Kurds are FINALLY getting back the land that they once owned. There is nothing wrong with this. Even if it means that Kirkuk is a Kurdish city - because this is the truth.

salam

firstly my country's name is Türkiye;that means lands of Turks,so isnt it normal to be the offical language is Turkish!?
beside;we had 8 presidents in our republic history n 3 of these were Kurdish,

since 10 years ago,speaking kurdish was forbidden,but only in governmental buildings n so,this is normal,,turkish is the only official language in this country..

as you said,we didnt kill innocent people anytime,,n the number of deaths are nt so many,,the army fights only against kurdish terrorists on mountains,,n we also lost many people...

you may ve been here for many times,but i was born here,i live here n i lived in Kars(a half kurdish city in the east) for 2 years,,i lived with them n i had many kurdish friends there,they were nt complaining about anything...

maybe you can nt even imagine but we ve been living with our kurdish people for hundreds of years and we fought together against invaders during WW1 n War of Independance,,..

about kerkuk,originally it is a turkmen city,Saddam sent many arabs there but this doesnt change the truth...beside,as i see it you believe in the support of america to kurds in irak now...but you better understand that they only care oil,money,power..none of us!..
Talabani is the president of irak now but this is only a part of the game,nothing else,irakians must ve chosen him,not america...

anyway,,peace be upon you bro...

 

[budda]

I do believe Kurds should get there own land. Like the Jews they are treated like dirt everywhere they go for no good reason so a small homeland could resolve a lot of issues or create a whole bunch more.

 

[Mezier]

salam

firstly my country's name is Türkiye;that means lands of Turks,so isnt it normal to be the offical language is Turkish!?
beside;we had 8 presidents in our republic history n 3 of these were Kurdish,

since 10 years ago,speaking kurdish was forbidden,but only in governmental buildings n so,this is normal,,turkish is the only official language in this country..

as you said,we didnt kill innocent people anytime,,n the number of deaths are nt so many,,the army fights only against kurdish terrorists on mountains,,n we also lost many people...

you may ve been here for many times,but i was born here,i live here n i lived in Kars(a half kurdish city in the east) for 2 years,,i lived with them n i had many kurdish friends there,they were nt complaining about anything...

maybe you can nt even imagine but we ve been living with our kurdish people for hundreds of years and we fought together against invaders during WW1 n War of Independance,,..

about kerkuk,originally it is a turkmen city,Saddam sent many arabs there but this doesnt change the truth...beside,as i see it you believe in the support of america to kurds in irak now...but you better understand that they only care oil,money,power..none of us!..
Talabani is the president of irak now but this is only a part of the game,nothing else,irakians must ve chosen him,not america...

anyway,,peace be upon you bro...

and Kurdistan means the Land of the Kurds. Why cant we have the same thing you have?

What I was talking about was before 1991 Kurdish was illegal everywhere...language and signs. Then after Ozal died (who supported the Kurds), they made it illegal only in government buildings. Yet you dont see this as UNEQUALISM? When a large portion of your population is Kurdish, and you dont recognize them?

I want a place where the OFFICIAL language is Kurdish - or atleast a recognised language. Where we can hang Kurdish signs without any trouble. Where we can teach our kids the history of the Kurds. Where our schools teach Kurdish as a primary language. And I want all of this without any problems or discrimination from the governments that share our land. Yet this hasnt been possible while living under the rule of other governments. It isnt our fault we want a country. We want this because of the amount of oppresion we have witnessed at the hands of our neighbours. Simply, it is cause-and-effect.

 

[Akil]

Salah al-Din was Kurdish, isn’t he one of the greatest Muslim leaders in history?

 

[Warthog]

nationalism, which the Prophet (pbuh) compared to biting your father's genitals.

Um, hmmm. Nationalism.... biting dad's genitals...... hmm. Ok then. Yeah, I see the comparison. It is the same.

 

[Mezier]

Salah al-Din was Kurdish, isn’t he one of the greatest Muslim leaders in history?

indeed he was.

 

[Dawud_uk]

Um, hmmm. Nationalism.... biting dad's genitals...... hmm. Ok then. Yeah, I see the comparison. It is the same.

if i remember correctly, the quote is that the prophet Muhammad saws is reported to have said 'if you find someone bragging about their ancestry like in the days of Jahiliyyah (pre Islamic ignorance) then tell him to bite his fathers private parts and do not use a euphemism'