Homophobia, not injustice, is what really fires the faiths

[Khattab]

Same with blacks.

Same with atheists.

Did you know that 50 years ago athiests were forbidden in America to testify in court or hold public office?

I don't see your point though. Times change and sometimes attitudes change too.



Slippery Slope? What about bestiality (puppy love?)? Polygamy?

What Im saying is if you go around calling those who are against homosexuals, not tolerant and some how backwards then its just hypocrosy, what about Incest, why are those who want to take part in it not given the right to do so? If you give one people there rights then give it to everyone, no? But this is where mankind fails when they rule by there own desires it is inevatibly going to end in disaster, you will get people who want to make everything allowed, peodophilia, incest etc, there are already groups set up campainging for these things, and if you accept homosexuality and go around calling everyone against it homophobic then you are just a hypocrite if you dont accept the other mentioned things.

With pedophiles it more a question of children's ability to consent than it is the adults right to sex/marry.

Yes but everyone matures at different ages, have you not heard gays say something along the lines "Ever since I was young I knew I was gay", so who are we then to say a child doesnt love a certain man or women and have extra feelings for them? You cant say there feelings arent true and its a phase because even when people grow up there feelings change.

Would you allow a kid who said he/she was sure of there feelings the right to go with a certain man or women or would you deny him/her there right and say they dont know there feelings?

In some cultures, including early Islamic culture if I'm not mistaken, the age of consent was much lower. People were marrying in their teens or even younger. We'd call that pedophilia by today's cultural norms.

If the culture deems children not mature enough to consent then pedophilia is the same as rape. If children ARE mature enough to choose, then that goes way beyond pedophelia. THey would then logically be ok to buy cigarettes and drive cars and vote, etc.

In Islam when someone reaches puberty they are considered as an adult and when they can comprehend marriage then it is permissable for them to marry.

 

[Khattab]

"if"..........?

I would also be against "if" everyone in the world being a suicide bomber :? I stand by what I said since evolution works through safety in numbers

Please answer my initial question, you said the purpose of life was to pro-create, so going by your theory homosexuals then dont have a purpose.

So are homosexuals fulfilling there purpose? And what is there purpose?

 

[Malaikah]

No rights? Not any? Surely you don't mean that. If you do, then this is good reason to be anti-islamic.

It depends what you mean by 'no rights'. They haven't the right to be gay, but if they are gay and don't get caught well that is between them and God. But otherwise the rest of their rights are the same as anyone else's.

Those who choose a homosexual life style should probably avoid a Muslim government, just like a Muslim who wishes to deny the rights of homosexuals should avoid a Democracy.

Exactly.

 

[Pygoscelis]

In Islam when someone reaches puberty they are considered as an adult and when they can comprehend marriage then it is permissable for them to marry.

Is that also the age that they are allowed to drive etc? Or are there various ages of maturity?

 

[Pygoscelis]

It depends what you mean by 'no rights'.

Depends what you mean, as you said "no rights". Just clarifying that potentially truly nasty statement.

They haven't the right to be gay, but if they are gay and don't get caught well that is between them and God.

Is there an Islamic punishment for engaging in homosexual behaviour?

 

[Malaikah]

^Er I am sure I explained what I meant by no rights. Do you still want me to explain more?:?

And yes, there is a punishment, death.

 

[Pygoscelis]

And yes, there is a punishment, death.

:skeleton:

So it isn't anti-islamic propaganda when people tell me that Muslims want to kill homosexuals?

 

[Zulkiflim]

:skeleton:

So it isn't anti-islamic propaganda when people tell me that Muslims want to kill homosexuals?

Salaaam,

The rule is different.

Islam say that for men to fornicate with othr men,when caught thy will be punished.
Maybe thir death maybe something else.

They are not killed for being homosexual or thinking they are homosexual.

They are punished after doing homosexual activities.

I remember a hadith saying that if a man does not have the lust for a woman,but for a man,he should then abstain.
For it is better to get married but worser if he cannot be true.

 

[Malaikah]

So it isn't anti-islamic propaganda when people tell me that Muslims want to kill homosexuals?

Well there are conditions. I do not know what they are though, I only know what they are for adultery.

For example, with adultery, there has to be four trustworthy witnesses who see the actual act itself happening before they can be confirmed guilty.

I would assume that parallels could be drawn with homosexuality... also I do not know if it applies to non-Muslims living in an Islamic state. Perhaps someone else can answer that.

 

[Muhammad]

Greetings,

It's been an interesting thread and I for one support a Government protecting the freedom of it's subjects from religous homophobia especially at the hands of Islam and it's homophobic laws.

It was mentioned on another thread on in this forum that a phobia has more to do with fear than it has to do with hatred. Someone even said that, "if I am a Homophobe for example then I am not hateful towards Homoseuals, but just don't understand them, and do not wish to interact with them. A Homophobe does not nessesarily hate Gays." What then, does the word 'homophobic" have to do with Islam? Islam knows full well what homosexuality is and does not teach fear of people with such inclinations. Rather, it teaches us to help and warn people with these inclinations as homosexual acts are forbidden by God.

Details of how homosexuals would be treated in an Islamic state and discussions on this topic have already been mentioned elsewhere on the forum. See for example:

http://www.islamicboard.com/556617-post29.html
http://www.islamicboard.com/basics-islam/19533-being-gay.html

Peace.

 

[root]

Greetings,

It was mentioned on another thread on in this forum that a phobia has more to do with fear than it has to do with hatred. Someone even said that, "if I am a Homophobe for example then I am not hateful towards Homoseuals, but just don't understand them, and do not wish to interact with them. A Homophobe does not nessesarily hate Gays." What then, does the word 'homophobic" have to do with Islam? Islam knows full well what homosexuality is and does not teach fear of people with such inclinations. Rather, it teaches us to help and warn people with these inclinations as homosexual acts are forbidden by God.

Details of how homosexuals would be treated in an Islamic state and discussions on this topic have already been mentioned elsewhere on the forum. See for example:

http://www.islamicboard.com/556617-post29.html
http://www.islamicboard.com/basics-islam/19533-being-gay.html

Peace.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homophobia

I find the below a result of homophobia, the recipient's live in fear for thier lives. You can attempt to water down homophobic attitudes as "we don't undesrtand them, we don't want to engage with them". But I don't see in your text people running in fear of thier lives........ and that is the force of homophobia.......

In Iran today homosexuality is punished by arrest and even death, which makes coming out' practically impossible. Every lesbian and gay lives in almost complete isolation and panic lest school-mates, an employer or a family member become suspicious. Those who dare confide their secret know that if it gets out, shame will fall on the entire family.

They daren't even have books, magazines or any information about homosexuality because it could be found by a family member or by the police searching for forbidden items like political propaganda against the regime or alcohol and drugs.

Gay bars have been closed since the time of the Shah so homosexuals are forced to meet in parks, which are raided regularly by civilian-clothed police or 'guardists'. They demand identification and anyone who hesitates is immediately suspect. Gays revealing the slightest 'soft' or feminine characteristics are beaten and kicked or given electric shocks to different parts of the body. If the police feel they have captured a particularly 'dangerous' homosexual, he is humiliated and raped before being executed.

Lesbians especially lead intolerable lives. Forced to marry through family pressure, those who show no interest in sexual relations are accused of failing to obey their husbands, which under Islam is grounds for divorce - often preceded by a long period of humiliation and beatings.

Divorce brings even greater isolation and oppression: because the woman is no longer a virgin, her family fears she will misbehave sexually unless kept under constant supervision. Suspicions that she might be lesbian fuel their hostility.

Because the media tells Iranians incessantly that homosexuals who have been arrested are rapists and paedophiles, most people are very ignorant about homosexuality. Many believe AIDS is a justified punishment for those living sinful lives. Many lesbians and gays themselves believe they are the victims of disease or mental disorder.

It has not always been so, of course. In the Middle Ages the poets and writers of Persia wrote warm and beautiful sentiments about homosexual relationships. Even during the brutal repression of the Shah's regime, when political dissidents were arrested and executed, at least homosexuality was not outlawed. On the contrary, the pretence of adhering to Western culture gave gay people greater psychological freedom. And even if legislation did not protect homosexuals from arrest, there was little evidence of persecution.

But when the Shah fell, the ayatollahs and fundamentalist mullahs (priests) introduced a new morality, and religious fanatics began hunting down leftists and intellectual critics of the regime. Lesbians and gays were soon included on the published list of enemies' of the new rulers. And before long they were being rounded up in droves.

The first execution I read about in the Iranian papers came not long after the Shah's fall: a homosexual soldier who was killed after being caught having sex with a mullah. Since then lesbians and gays have been arrested and executed in ever-growing numbers - often having been severely tortured to make them confess the names of their friends and sexual contacts.

I soon realized that I had to leave my home country. Even if I refrained from being an activist and never again submitted a single article to an underground newspaper, my life would be in constant jeopardy: at any moment a friend being tortured inside a prison could reveal my name. Arrest would not only end my life but also disgrace my entire family. And how many names would I reveal once they started beating me on the soles of my feet, or hanging me from iron bars?

Eventually I fled to Sweden. But even in exile, none of us are safe. We live in terror of the Iranian fundamentalists who are eager to wipe out 'deviants', or political activists from Iran who won't allow unclean' elements to soil their noble cause.

Today no-one knows how many homosexuals have been killed or arrested in Iran. But we do know that those sentenced to death are given the choice of execution: being hurled from a cliff or high building, hanging, facing a firing squad or stoning. Many choose being thrown to their deaths. I think they feel this gives them a moment of freedom from earthly torture and pain.

 

[Dawud_uk]

root,

please do no confuse the shi'a state of iran for the genuine islam, in islam we do not go spying on people but then neither would we allow parks to become the grounds of immorality.

even other shi'a i have spoken to tell me that iran isnt even complying with the shi'a version of shariah and have twisted it and introduced their own culture as another source of law.

for example, in iran an unmarried fornicator caught three times is executed... why? this is not in the Quran, nor in the Sunnah nor even in the traditions of the shi'a.

just so their treatment of gays goes against norms of islamic behaviour, i am sure there are many good examples of carring iranians trying to treat and help kindly people who have homosexual urges as should be the islamic norm but then again there are many cases of homosexuals being attacked and beaten and murdered in non muslim lands including britain and the US. there was the case of the NY illegial immigrant who being homosexual and caught by the police was raped with a broom handle and had it then put in his mouth and his teeth were smashed out.

so such disgusting behaviour is contrary to islam, it is not from us but from the culture of hatred,

i dont hate gays, i hate their disgusting behaviour and i would if possible like to help them. i do not believe everyone is 100% gay who says they are, it is possible they can be treated and helped out of their behaviour but it has to be done in cooperation with them.

finally, yes in islam to deter others from this disgusting behaviour, if 4 sane adult witnesses to the act are found then yes male homosexuality i.e soddomy only is punished with death. female homosexual behaviour is punished by house arrest until she repents and can be trusted to behave herself as a moral person again.

but if they dont act on their urges or keep such actions secret, they can seek help if they wish or remain secret if they wish and their sins are between them and God.

Abu Abdullah

 

[FollowingAlhuda]

i dont hate gays, i hate their disgusting behaviour and i would if possible like to help them. i do not believe everyone is 100% gay who says they are, it is possible they can be treated and helped out of their behaviour but it has to be done in cooperation with them.
Abu Abdullah

Salaamo Aleikom bro,

I actually agree with what your saying here. Next to that i saw an episode of Dr.Phill (YOu must know him). Well in the show came many ex-gay guests. They where telling that gayness is just a ''thing'' you have and can be cured. The most of them where real gays (with woman attributes). The gays only have to be open for help and they could...

Wassalamo Aleikom

 

[IbnAbdulHakim]

most of the aethiests are of the opinion that because the gays cannot help their feelings towards other men its allright. But this seems so wrong to me because we could justify any crime in the world this way. Desire, it corrupts, restraint and practise can help. Also faith, it does miraculous things...

 

[Muhammad]

Hello root,

You can attempt to water down homophobic attitudes as "we don't undesrtand them, we don't want to engage with them". But I don't see in your text people running in fear of thier lives........ and that is the force of homophobia.......

Just to clarify, I was saying that the notion "we don't undesrtand them, we don't want to engage with them" was someone else's interpretation of the word homophobe, and therefore this is contrary to the Islamic viewpoint. In Islam, we do understand the concept of homosexuality, we do want to help such people and we are not afraid of them. These connotations (mainly fear and ignorance) of the word homophobe do not apply to Islamic teachings. The only thing is that we disapprove of the behaviour and open practice is unacceptable.

 

[Pygoscelis]

most of the aethiests are of the opinion that because the gays cannot help their feelings towards other men its allright. But this seems so wrong to me because we could justify any crime in the world this way. Desire, it corrupts, restraint and practise can help. Also faith, it does miraculous things...

I'm afraid you've built a mental straw ma here. This isn't the oopinion of most atheists I know. It isn't because they can't help but having their feelings (the same could be said of any undesirable behaviour). It is because thei behaviour isn't as socially destructive as theists claim. The main reason people find homosexuality imorral is because of religious dogma. Take away that dogma, such as in atheists, and it is no longer seen as imorral.

 

[Dawud_uk]

I'm afraid you've built a mental straw ma here. This isn't the oopinion of most atheists I know. It isn't because they can't help but having their feelings (the same could be said of any undesirable behaviour). It is because thei behaviour isn't as socially destructive as theists claim. The main reason people find homosexuality imorral is because of religious dogma. Take away that dogma, such as in atheists, and it is no longer seen as imorral.

i certainly held it to be wrong when i used to be an atheist, as does my father who is on the same beliefs as i used to be upon.

in fact many atheists i know of or have known hold it to be wrong and socially destructive.

Abu Abdullah

 

[IbnAbdulHakim]

homosexuality is most certainly socially destructive, theres many more women then men on earth therefore many women will be without partners also gays cannot give birth and children create love between partners.

 

[Pygoscelis]

homosexuality is most certainly socially destructive, theres many more women then men on earth therefore many women will be without partners also gays cannot give birth and children create love between partners.

If homosexuality is roughly equal between the sexes, then your "women won't have men" complaint is void. And I'm not sure, so correct me if I'm wrong, but in such a situation where women do outnumber men significantly isn't polygmy allowed under Islam?

As for children, I consider it a noble sacrifice for people NOT to have children. Human beings are already overpopulated.

And as for children creating love between partners, I think that is a rather bold and peculiar claim. You would say that childless couples are apt to love each other less than couples with children?

 

[IbnAbdulHakim]

If homosexuality is roughly equal between the sexes, then your "women won't have men" complaint is void. And I'm not sure, so correct me if I'm wrong, but in such a situation where women do outnumber men significantly isn't polygmy allowed under Islam?

Polygomy is allowed but even then we must take into consideration the HUGE amount of men in comparison that are in prison, the amount that die in war, the fact that men die younger naturally and im not sure about the ratio of male gays to lesbians.

As for children, I consider it a noble sacrifice for people NOT to have children. Human beings are already overpopulated.

We can still do with a few million more muslims, thats the goal of the muslims, to give birth to pious children.

And as for children creating love between partners, I think that is a rather bold and peculiar claim. You would say that childless couples are apt to love each other less than couples with children?

This shows a huge lack of faith, your thinking in the material sense. Your thinking children stop parents from going to holidays and spending alone time am i right? Well this isnt the way muslims see it, we see them as comfort for our eyes, we can go into a whole discussion about this. Would you like to?