Peace be upon yall and mercy from Almighty G-d and blessings.
I seemed to have missed this thread so I will G-d willing just type some comments in order for me to derive good from this and come to a better understanding.
First,
Ppl...wake up...did you noe know that the Bible was written by Jews? The real bible is hidden so is the torah.
The real torah will never mention matters such as:
'Isa is in his own semen'. Why would God want to write this for?
I have never in my entire life read anything of this nature in the Bible's Old Testament, if possible please give us some reference.
To proceed, Seven I have some interest in your points,
Guess what,,Christ took on human form..Why,,,because, you know yourself God required Blood according to the Torah, to forgive sin..
Just would like to know if you could show us where it is stated or examples that Sin can
only be cleansed through blood, show us that
"G-d required Blood according to the Torah"
Although it would be interesting to discuss the rest of that post, in order not to stray to far I will leave it there, G-d willing.
Proceeding,
I don't know about your God..But mine is just in all his ways..If he just forgave sin,,that would not be justice,,so why would I believe in him then.
I ask why would He not be just? G-d as you agree, I believe, is The Creator of the heavens and the earth, He is the law giver, the one who sets the law, He does not have to answer to any type of UN group.
Now G-d made us, he knows and made us not perfect, he has created us unable to be 100% obidient, thus it is only Just for G-d to have Mercy and forgive us. If he didnt then it would have been an unjust scenario.
So if G-d created us like this, weak and in knowledge that we are sinners, then why would He not forgive us without a need of sacrafice.
Now if your saying G-d made laws about this and He needs to keep to those laws to be Just then thats a different view point.
Moving on,
thw Quran has been translated into other languages and will see revision also. So I don't think that this should be a matter at all.
Now, the Qu'ran, meaning the Mushaf, the written scripture is in Arabic, that Arabic Text has not seen any revision.
The different languages in which the Arabic Text has been interpreted by a person and then translated, that can have revisions for no Muslim will say that is the Word of G-d.
The Bible as we have now, has revisions, which leave out certain parts from the bulk text, as I will show in a bit, G-d willing, also this is what the Preface of the Revised Standard Version (illustrated) says with regards to the King James Version:
On Page iii of Preface:
The King James Version had to compete with the Geneva Bible in popular use; but in the end it prevailed, and for more than two and a half centuries no other authorized translation of the Bible into English was made. The King James Version became the "Authorize Version" of the English-speaking peoples.
..................
Yet the King James Version has grave defects. By the middle of the nineteenth centure, the development of Biblical studies and the discovery of many manuscripts more ancient than those upon which the King James Version was based, made it manifest that these defects are so many and so serious as to call for revision of the English translation.
So then the RVS was made, by aparently no less that 32 scholars. (preface iv)
Now to some differences:
1 Epistle of John Chapter 5
Kings James Version:
6This is he that came by water and blood, even Jesus Christ; not by water only, but by water and blood. And it is the Spirit that beareth witness, because the Spirit is truth.
7For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.
8And there are three that bear witness in earth, the Spirit, and the water, and the blood: and these three agree in one.
I copied the verses from here to save me writing them out
English Standard Version (since I could not find the Revised Standard Version)
6This is he who came by water and blood--Jesus Christ; not by the water only but by the water and the blood. And the Spirit is the one who testifies, because the Spirit is the truth.
7For there are three that testify:
8the Spirit and the water and the blood; and these three agree.
New Internation Version (known widely as NIV):
6This is the one who came by water and blood—Jesus Christ. He did not come by water only, but by water and blood. And it is the Spirit who testifies, because the Spirit is the truth.
7For there are three that testify:
8the[a] Spirit, the water and the blood; and the three are in agreement.
Footnote
1 John 5:8 Late manuscripts of the Vulgate testify in heaven: the Father, the Word and the Holy Spirit, and these three are one. 8 And there are three that testify on earth: the (not found in any Greek manuscript before the sixteenth century)
Now in case you didnt notice the differences here:
The King James version has the full verses, then the English Revised Version takes away verse 7 and splits verse 8 into 2 so that the verse numbers are still the same, but no mention of this in the footnotes, then finally in the New Internation Version the same split as the English Revised Version is used but now a footnote is provided informing the reader that the passage is not found in any Greek manyscript before the 16 century.
Another example can be found in, The Gospel According To Mark, which is held to be the earliest one, in Chapter 16,
The
King James Version says,
Mark 16
1And when the sabbath was past, Mary Magdalene, and Mary the mother of James, and Salome, had bought sweet spices, that they might come and anoint him.
2And very early in the morning the first day of the week, they came unto the sepulchre at the rising of the sun.
3And they said among themselves, Who shall roll us away the stone from the door of the sepulchre?
4And when they looked, they saw that the stone was rolled away: for it was very great.
5And entering into the sepulchre, they saw a young man sitting on the right side, clothed in a long white garment; and they were affrighted.
6And he saith unto them, Be not affrighted: Ye seek Jesus of Nazareth, which was crucified: he is risen; he is not here: behold the place where they laid him.
7But go your way, tell his disciples and Peter that he goeth before you into Galilee: there shall ye see him, as he said unto you.
8And they went out quickly, and fled from the sepulchre; for they trembled and were amazed: neither said they any thing to any man; for they were afraid.
9Now when Jesus was risen early the first day of the week, he appeared first to Mary Magdalene, out of whom he had cast seven devils.
10And she went and told them that had been with him, as they mourned and wept.
11And they, when they had heard that he was alive, and had been seen of her, believed not.
12After that he appeared in another form unto two of them, as they walked, and went into the country.
13And they went and told it unto the residue: neither believed they them.
14Afterward he appeared unto the eleven as they sat at meat, and upbraided them with their unbelief and hardness of heart, because they believed not them which had seen him after he was risen.
15And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature.
16He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.
17And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues;
18They shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover.
19So then after the Lord had spoken unto them, he was received up into heaven, and sat on the right hand of God.
20And they went forth, and preached every where, the Lord working with them, and confirming the word with signs following. Amen.
The
English Revised Version says,
The Resurrection
1When the Sabbath was past, Mary Magdalene and Mary the mother of James and Salome bought spices, so that they might go and anoint him. 2And very early on the first day of the week, when the sun had risen, they went to the tomb. 3And they were saying to one another, "Who will roll away the stone for us from the entrance of the tomb?" 4And looking up, they saw that the stone had been rolled back--it was very large. 5And entering the tomb, they saw a young man sitting on the right side, dressed in a white robe, and they were alarmed. 6And he said to them, "Do not be alarmed. You seek Jesus of Nazareth, who was crucified. He has risen; he is not here. See the place where they laid him. 7But go, tell his disciples and Peter that he is going before you to Galilee. There you will see him, just as he told you." 8And they went out and fled from the tomb, for trembling and astonishment had seized them, and they said nothing to anyone, for they were afraid.
[Some of the earliest manuscripts do not include 16:9-20.]
Jesus Appears to Mary Magdalene
9[a] [[Now when he rose early on the first day of the week, he appeared first to Mary Magdalene, from whom he had cast out seven demons. 10She went and told those who had been with him, as they mourned and wept. 11But when they heard that he was alive and had been seen by her, they would not believe it.
Jesus Appears to Two Disciples
12After these things he appeared in another form to two of them, as they were walking into the country. 13And they went back and told the rest, but they did not believe them.
The Great Commission
14Afterward he appeared to the eleven themselves as they were reclining at table, and he rebuked them for their unbelief and hardness of heart, because they had not believed those who saw him after he had risen. 15And he said to them, "Go into all the world and proclaim the gospel to the whole creation. 16Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved, but whoever does not believe will be condemned. 17And these signs will accompany those who believe: in my name they will cast out demons; they will speak in new tongues; 18they will pick up serpents with their hands; and if they drink any deadly poison, it will not hurt them; they will lay their hands on the sick, and they will recover."
19So then the Lord Jesus, after he had spoken to them, was taken up into heaven and sat down at the right hand of God. 20And they went out and preached everywhere, while the Lord worked with them and confirmed the message by accompanying signs.]]
Then it states this, as a footnote:
Mark 16:9 Some manuscripts end the book with 16:8; others include verses 9-20 immediately after verse 8. A few manuscripts insert additional material after verse 14; one Latin manuscript adds after verse 8 the following: But they reported briefly to Peter and those with him all that they had been told. And after this, Jesus himself sent out by means of them, from east to west, the sacred and imperishable proclamation of eternal salvation. Other manuscripts include this same wording after verse 8, then continue with verses 9-20
The
New Internation Version says,
Mark 16
The Resurrection
1When the Sabbath was over, Mary Magdalene, Mary the mother of James, and Salome bought spices so that they might go to anoint Jesus' body. 2Very early on the first day of the week, just after sunrise, they were on their way to the tomb 3and they asked each other, "Who will roll the stone away from the entrance of the tomb?"
4But when they looked up, they saw that the stone, which was very large, had been rolled away. 5As they entered the tomb, they saw a young man dressed in a white robe sitting on the right side, and they were alarmed.
6"Don't be alarmed," he said. "You are looking for Jesus the Nazarene, who was crucified. He has risen! He is not here. See the place where they laid him. 7But go, tell his disciples and Peter, 'He is going ahead of you into Galilee. There you will see him, just as he told you.' "
8Trembling and bewildered, the women went out and fled from the tomb. They said nothing to anyone, because they were afraid.
((The most reliable early manuscripts and other ancient witnesses do not have Mark 16:9-20.))
9When Jesus rose early on the first day of the week, he appeared first to Mary Magdalene, out of whom he had driven seven demons. 10She went and told those who had been with him and who were mourning and weeping. 11When they heard that Jesus was alive and that she had seen him, they did not believe it.
12Afterward Jesus appeared in a different form to two of them while they were walking in the country. 13These returned and reported it to the rest; but they did not believe them either.
14Later Jesus appeared to the Eleven as they were eating; he rebuked them for their lack of faith and their stubborn refusal to believe those who had seen him after he had risen.
15He said to them, "Go into all the world and preach the good news to all creation. 16Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved, but whoever does not believe will be condemned. 17And these signs will accompany those who believe: In my name they will drive out demons; they will speak in new tongues; 18they will pick up snakes with their hands; and when they drink deadly poison, it will not hurt them at all; they will place their hands on sick people, and they will get well."
19After the Lord Jesus had spoken to them, he was taken up into heaven and he sat at the right hand of God. 20Then the disciples went out and preached everywhere, and the Lord worked with them and confirmed his word by the signs that accompanied it.
Again in case the difference was not noticed, in the King James Version, it seems the writers were oblivious to the later knowledge of the other two versions, but in the English Revised Version, we are told
'some' manuscripts do not have this and we are given a footnote to some alternative endings. Finally it is in the New Internation Version that we are told
"The most reliable early manuscripts and other ancient witnesses do not have Mark 16:9-20"
Let our eyes again look at the King James Version, in the Gospel According to John Chapter 7 and 8,
50Nicodemus saith unto them, (he that came to Jesus by night, being one of them,)
51Doth our law judge any man, before it hear him, and know what he doeth?
52They answered and said unto him, Art thou also of Galilee? Search, and look: for out of Galilee ariseth no prophet.
53And every man went unto his own house.
John 8
1Jesus went unto the mount of Olives.
2And early in the morning he came again into the temple, and all the people came unto him; and he sat down, and taught them.
3And the scribes and Pharisees brought unto him a woman taken in adultery; and when they had set her in the midst,
4They say unto him, Master, this woman was taken in adultery, in the very act.
5Now Moses in the law commanded us, that such should be stoned: but what sayest thou?
6This they said, tempting him, that they might have to accuse him. But Jesus stooped down, and with his finger wrote on the ground, as though he heard them not.
7So when they continued asking him, he lifted up himself, and said unto them, He that is without sin among you, let him first cast a stone at her.
8And again he stooped down, and wrote on the ground.
9And they which heard it, being convicted by their own conscience, went out one by one, beginning at the eldest, even unto the last: and Jesus was left alone, and the woman standing in the midst.
10When Jesus had lifted up himself, and saw none but the woman, he said unto her, Woman, where are those thine accusers? hath no man condemned thee?
11She said, No man, Lord. And Jesus said unto her, Neither do I condemn thee: go, and sin no more.
12Then spake Jesus again unto them, saying, I am the light of the world: he that followeth me shall not walk in darkness, but shall have the light of life.
13The Pharisees therefore said unto him, Thou bearest record of thyself; thy record is not true.
14Jesus answered and said unto them, Though I bear record of myself, yet my record is true: for I know whence I came, and whither I go; but ye cannot tell whence I come, and whither I go.
15Ye judge after the flesh; I judge no man.
Also the English Revised Version,
50Nicodemus, who had gone to him before, and who was one of them, said to them, 51"Does our law judge a man without first giving him a hearing and learning what he does?" 52They replied, "Are you from Galilee too? Search and see that no prophet arises from Galilee."
[The earliest manuscripts do not include John 7:53-8:11]
The Woman Caught in Adultery
53[g] [[They went each to his own house,
John 8
1but Jesus went to the Mount of Olives. 2Early in the morning he came again to the temple. All the people came to him, and he sat down and taught them. 3The scribes and the Pharisees brought a woman who had been caught in adultery, and placing her in the midst 4they said to him, "Teacher, this woman has been caught in the act of adultery. 5Now in the Law Moses commanded us to stone such women. So what do you say?" 6This they said to test him, that they might have some charge to bring against him. Jesus bent down and wrote with his finger on the ground. 7And as they continued to ask him, he stood up and said to them, "Let him who is without sin among you be the first to throw a stone at her." 8And once more he bent down and wrote on the ground. 9But when they heard it, they went away one by one, beginning with the older ones, and Jesus was left alone with the woman standing before him. 10Jesus stood up and said to her, "Woman, where are they? Has no one condemned you?" 11She said, "No one, Lord." And Jesus said, "Neither do I condemn you; go, and from now on sin no more."]]
I Am the Light of the World
12Again Jesus spoke to them, saying, "I am the light of the world. Whoever follows me will not walk in darkness, but will have the light of life." 13So the Pharisees said to him, "You are bearing witness about yourself; your testimony is not true." 14Jesus answered, "Even if I do bear witness about myself, my testimony is true, for I know where I came from and where I am going, but you do not know where I come from or where I am going. 15You judge according to the flesh; I judge no one.
Also footnote G comments on,
John 7:53 Some manuscripts do not include 7:53-8:11; others add the passage here or after 7:36 or after 21:25 or after Luke 21:38, with variations in the text
And finally the
New International Standard Version,
50Nicodemus, who had gone to Jesus earlier and who was one of their own number, asked, 51"Does our law condemn anyone without first hearing him to find out what he is doing?"
52They replied, "Are you from Galilee, too? Look into it, and you will find that a prophet[e] does not come out of Galilee."
((The earliest and most reliable manuscripts and other ancient witnesses do not have John 7:53-8:11.))
53Then each went to his own home.
John 8
1But Jesus went to the Mount of Olives. 2At dawn he appeared again in the temple courts, where all the people gathered around him, and he sat down to teach them. 3The teachers of the law and the Pharisees brought in a woman caught in adultery. They made her stand before the group 4and said to Jesus, "Teacher, this woman was caught in the act of adultery. 5In the Law Moses commanded us to stone such women. Now what do you say?" 6They were using this question as a trap, in order to have a basis for accusing him.
But Jesus bent down and started to write on the ground with his finger. 7When they kept on questioning him, he straightened up and said to them, "If any one of you is without sin, let him be the first to throw a stone at her." 8Again he stooped down and wrote on the ground.
9At this, those who heard began to go away one at a time, the older ones first, until only Jesus was left, with the woman still standing there. 10Jesus straightened up and asked her, "Woman, where are they? Has no one condemned you?"
11"No one, sir," she said.
"Then neither do I condemn you," Jesus declared. "Go now and leave your life of sin."
The Validity of Jesus' Testimony
12When Jesus spoke again to the people, he said, "I am the light of the world. Whoever follows me will never walk in darkness, but will have the light of life."
13The Pharisees challenged him, "Here you are, appearing as your own witness; your testimony is not valid."
14Jesus answered, "Even if I testify on my own behalf, my testimony is valid, for I know where I came from and where I am going. But you have no idea where I come from or where I am going. 15You judge by human standards; I pass judgment on no one.
A recap, the King James Version had no warning but ran smothly, whilst the English Revised Version stated "The earliest manuscripts do not include John 7:53-8:11" and it was closely followed by the New Internation Version which stated further that, "The
earliest and
most reliable manuscripts and other ancient witnesses do not have John 7:53-8:11."
It would only be logical for a person to then out of these three follow the NIV.
With regards to this comment made:
I believe my Bible is the only word of God. Is God so small as to let man Corrupt it..Not the God I serve.
I as a Muslim, one who does Islam, which is one who Submits to G-d (as the Bible recomends in James 4:7), agree with you that if G-d wills, He can do anything He wants, including the presevation of Scripture, that is why I as a Muslim have reassurance that the Qu'ran will be preserved. For He states, in the english translation of the meaning:
Surah 15 Ayah 9
YUSUFALI: We have, without doubt, sent down the Message; and We will assuredly guard it (from corruption).
But also before Embracing Islam, checking whether the Qu'ran could be the same as it was revealed was neccesary, so it should be with anyone and their faith.
In Islam we do not see the fact that Jesus' and Moses', peace be upon them both, their families and those who follow them, teachings and scriptures were not preserved because G-d couldnt but rather because those were guidance for a time and period, and that time and period have passed, with regards to Jesus peace be upon him and his family and his followers, Almighty G-d says in the translation of the meaning:
Surah 3 ayah 49
YUSUFALI: "And (appoint him) a messenger to the Children of Israel, (with this message): "'I have come to you, with a Sign from your Lord, in that I make for you out of clay, as it were, the figure of a bird, and breathe into it, and it becomes a bird by Allah's leave: And I heal those born blind, and the lepers, and I quicken the dead, by Allah's leave; and I declare to you what ye eat, and what ye store in your houses. Surely therein is a Sign for you if ye did believe;
Thus, for example if I had a letter with a message to be delivered to 5 people. I would ensure that the message would be given to them in the same way I wrote it, but as soon as those people died or passed away or as soon as I needed to change the message, the letter containg old message could be thrown away or burnt, since the need for it is not there no more.
I hope this makes sense, and I am not asking you that you believe this, just that you understand my view point as I will try understand yours for that is the best we can do as fellow humans, the guidance and mercy of faith comes only from Almighty G-d.
Moving onto my last point G-d willing cos I have work soon:
The oldest book of the OT was written approximately 80 years after Jesus,pbuh, was taken up, and the rest later. Absolutely nothing was written in the lifetime of Jesus, pbuh. And the OT books were not authored by the disciples of Jesus, pbuh. Again, these books were written on hearsay, folklore and tradition.
I am hoping here you mean NT for New Testament and not OT for Old Testament, InshAllah.
Also
Can you explain why John is so vastly different from the 4 synoptics?
3 sypnotic, Matthew, Mark and Luke.
I hope to learn more from both of you two, specially you sis! InshAllah.
I enjoyin everyone to keep the interfaith communication honourable please.
I also hope I have not come across as offensive or as if I have being trying to belittle the Bible, that was not my intention but only to share what I have learnt and my view point on the matter, if I am mistaken please anyone correct me, InshAllah, G-d willing.
May Jesus son of Mary be Immiune from any lies spread about him or his family by Christians or Muslims, and may he be blessed along with his family and his followers.
Muslims please remember what was said to the last Prophet peace be upon him by The Creator, in the translation of the meaning:
It is true thou wilt not be able to guide every one, whom thou lovest; but Allah guides those whom He will and He knows best those who receive guidance.
There were no Christians before Jesus, pbuh. Chances are the scribes were from a Jewish sect, yes....but they don't know with 100% certainty which group wrote what. They only have speculation. The original thought of the Qumran scrolls has changed dramatically as to who wrote them. That's why I said, it goes far deeper than a piece of paper.
