Is 3rd world war close?

[Woodrow]

Well, thats one of the few positive things that might come from this mess we have now. Iraq and Afghanistan clearly show that military involvement in the region is an expensive business and not very helpful in achieving your goals anyway. At the same time lets hope the oil age will end as soon as possible, since it another reason for the foreign meddling in the region.

This may be all that is needed to bring about the rapid demise of petroleum dependency. At the moment any further development of oil in the mideast is going to be very expensive and not very cost effective. The cheaper alternative is to develop existing oil reserves outside the mideast and strive for technology that will reduce the need for petroleum.

I believe the Oil corporations that control the oil market have gotten the message loud and clear, that it is going to be very expensive to use or depend on mideastern oil. It is not a wise choice to invest further money into mideastern oil and it is time for the oil companies to stop oil production in the region.

 

[Dawud_uk]

Well, thats one of the few positive things that might come from this mess we have now. Iraq and Afghanistan clearly show that military involvement in the region is an expensive business and not very helpful in achieving your goals anyway. At the same time lets hope the oil age will end as soon as possible, since it another reason for the foreign meddling in the region.

Perhaps in the future both sides can simply disengage and live largely isolated from each other. Peaceful coexistance and all that (dar al-Harb, dar al-Islam). I've actually warmed to HeiGou's idea of simply building a large fence between the two cultures and let either side do what they want on their side. Then maybe the Danes can make cartoons of Mohammed and the Iranians can have their holocaust denial exhibition and hang their convicted homosexuals.

It's tough, but neither side can really expect to 'convert' the other ideologically, let alone on religion. Of course, the Muslim world will have a tough time ahead of them even if Americans and Europeans disengage from the regions. Because clearly the Muhajedeen do not have full support. I fear the battle between Muslims (secular vs. orthodox, shia vs. sunni) is about to get a whole lot more bloody. In a way I think the foreign meddling has been a catalyst in this, but the root causes nevertheless lie within the Muslim world itself. If it were up to me I'd let you guys deal with it however you want, all I would ask is that you leave me be in my jahiliyya and kufr .

Side note: Bah, I've become such a cynic lately.

"jahiyya and kufr" lol @ kAding, you have clearly learnt more about islam than most of the self declared experts on islam who seem to occupy perminent seats on the Western TV networks.

kAding, not sure i would help you build that wall... especially with me me being on the wrong side of it, but on point of view of each not meddling in the others affairs in principle then sure i think we can agree to that. a diplomatic wall where people and trade can come and go but we put each others lands and countries at a distance.

to you your way of life, to me mine. i respect your right to be wrong according to my view point, you respect mine.

so perhaps not a wall, but certainly a healthy distance to let things cool down a bit so cooler heads can prevail and discuss things at a later date and would allow the muslims to put their own house in order so we can clearly say whatever problems are from x date are our own to sort out.

Abu Abdullah

 

[MTAFFI]

whose fault is it that a situation of anarchy came into being in iraq?

the Iraqis that choose to kill other Iraqis

 

[MTAFFI]

mtaffi,

sorry but if a group of guys armed to the teeth come to attack me i dont just stand there and take a beating, no i run away get my friends and then we come back and pick em off one at a time if possible.

the 'they dont fight fair' remark doesnt really work, could say the same to the yanks, brits and others. why dont you come fight only with guns and leave your tanks and planes to make it a fair fight? silly isnt it?

you use the advantage you have, try to minimalise your own disadvantage.

Abu Abdullah

But what if no one came to attack you but your oppressive government, would you then fight them off and say "Hey I like being killed in mass numbers and buried in shallow graves"? I doubt it, by talking with you in other post Dawud, I can see you sympathize with certain groups and I, in some ways, understand your positions, you just want your people to have protection and the same rights as everyone else. Please understand mine, I want your people to have the same rights as everyone else too, but how can that be accomplished with the middle man (the terrorist) who is trying to create anarchy so that they can take control and create another dictatorship? You are right also about the unfair fighting, why would these people want to group up and fight, they would lose almost as soon as they tried, this is why I say leave Iraq, then anyone fighting is doing it against the authorities, which would be illegal and give them no just cause to fight, and then hopefully they would lose numbers and the will for resistance.

PEACE Dawud

 

[MTAFFI]

burning down schools? hellllllllllo please give me a break why are troops still going to afghanistan? to stop schools being burnt? you mean the thousands there cant do that?

no actually they cant which is part of the reason the US is there in the first place, how could civilians stop a brutal armed militia (Taliban) from doing whatever they want?

do you read the news??? because the fact is there is still a war in both afghanistan and iraq
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/south_asia/6324409.stm

There is but the war is civil in both cases at this point, more Iraqis are killed by Iraqis everyday than US troops and the same for afghanistan

the us cannot afford to go to war atm

i bet you think like Iran that the US has just used all of it military might in one spot dont you? Perhaps you should research the US military, there are still plenty of troops, battleships, aircraft and submarines to go around, Iran would take maybe one good slap from the us before it collapsed like a card house

 

[islamway]

[B]US Air Force Says Israel Has
400 Atomic And Hydrogen Bombs
WorldTribune.com
7-4-2
A United States Air Force report asserts that Israel is building a nuclear naval force meant to respond to any nuclear strike by such countries as Iran or Iraq.

It is the first time a U.S. military institution has stated that Israel has produced a hydrogen bomb. The number of purported Israeli nuclear weapons cited in the report is double that of previous assessments.

The report, sponsored by the air force's Counterproliferation Center, asserts that the navy can deploy any of what it asserts is Israel's 400 atomic and hydrogen weapons, Middle East Newsline reported. The center is located in the Maxwell Air Force Base in Alabama.

In a report entitled "The Third Temple's Holy of Holies: Israel's Nuclear Weapons," U.S. Army Col. Warner Farr said Israel's nuclear arsenal has grown from an estimated 13 nuclear bombs in 1967 to 400 nuclear and thermonuclear weapons. Farr said Israel's navy could deploy nuclear weapons on the fleet of three German-built Dolphin-class diesel submarines.

"Israel will then have a second strike capability with nuclear cruise missiles, and this capability could well change the nuclear arms race in the Middle East," the report, which Farr said is based on unclassified sources, read. "Israeli rhetoric on the new submarines labels them 'national deterrent' assets."

The report said these nuclear missiles could have a range of 350 kilometers. Israel would try to base its nuclear naval force near Oman, with which Israel has informal relations, the September 1999 report, which was recently published by the center, said.

"The first basing options for the new second-strike force of nuclear missile capable submarines include Oman, an Arab nation with unofficial Israeli relations, located strategically near Iran," the report said.

The U.S. Air Force Counterproliferation Center was established in 1998. The center is meant to help prepare air force commanders counter the threat from weapons of mass destruction. The report did not deem Israel's purported nuclear arsenal as a direct threat to the United States.

The report said Israel's Defense Ministry has requested from the government of Prime Minister Ariel Sharon authorization for a retaliatory nuclear strike. Israel could also use Jordanian air space for a nuclear strike on Iran, which the report said could produce a nuclear warhead as early as 2004.

Comment

Josh Greenberg



7-4-2 [/B]

 

[Jibril]

the Iraqis that choose to kill other Iraqis

Wrong. They were given no choice at all. When the Americans blasted their way through the country and took apart all structures of a functioning society,..the poor Iraqis were left to fend for themselves cave man style. Its no surprise they started butchering each other. Make no mistake about it,..America is primarily to blame for the situation in Iraq. Iraqis are to blame also, but secondarily.

 

[Keltoi]

Wrong. They were given no choice at all. When the Americans blasted their way through the country and took apart all structures of a functioning society,..the poor Iraqis were left to fend for themselves cave man style. Its no surprise they started butchering each other. Make no mistake about it,..America is primarily to blame for the situation in Iraq. Iraqis are to blame also, but secondarily.

What drivel. Nobody forced Iraqis to form death squads and kill each other over religious affiliation. Yes, the U.S. is responsible for the destruction of the civilian infrastructure, what little they had in the first place. The "poor Iraqis" weren't forced to act like "cave men", that is a situation made both by design(Iran and Al-Qaeda), and by historical realities. Not saying the U.S. doesn't have a role to play in attempting to repair this chasm, but the U.S. doesn't bear responsibility for Iraqis butchering each other. Especially not in the way they are doing it.

 

[Woodrow]

US Air Force Says Israel Has
400 Atomic And Hydrogen Bombs
WorldTribune.com
7-4-2

If that is true, it is the most Idiotic thing a country as small as Israel can do. With each nuke in storage the risk of a nuclear mishap greatly increases. It is not a question if a nuclear accident will happen it is just a question of when. With that many in storage, Israel must be suicidal. Their national anthem should be changed to "Will We go Boom Today" One small mishap and it is sayanora Israel.

 

[MTAFFI]

Wrong. They were given no choice at all. When the Americans blasted their way through the country and took apart all structures of a functioning society,..the poor Iraqis were left to fend for themselves cave man style. Its no surprise they started butchering each other. Make no mistake about it,..America is primarily to blame for the situation in Iraq. Iraqis are to blame also, but secondarily.

what about all of the buildings, etc the insurgents have blasted their way through, leaving the poor Iraqis to fend for themselves? Everyone knows the US could have easily repaired any damage that they caused had these caveman insurgent not come in and caused total anarchy. America is to blame for toppling the government that was in place and that is all, I dont think that it is fair to blame any of the rest of it on the US.. In any case this is getting a little off topic, if you want to start a new thread about this please do and i will be happy to continue this there

 

[Jibril]

what about all of the buildings, etc the insurgents have blasted their way through, leaving the poor Iraqis to fend for themselves? Everyone knows the US could have easily repaired any damage that they caused had these caveman insurgent not come in and caused total anarchy. America is to blame for toppling the government that was in place and that is all, I dont think that it is fair to blame any of the rest of it on the US.. In any case this is getting a little off topic, if you want to start a new thread about this please do and i will be happy to continue this there

Mtaffi and keltoi,

The difference is that the insurgents didn't pick this battle. The US did. No Invasion of Iraq , No insurgency. Period. So as far as I'm concerned you can chalk that up to the US too. Actually it was American screwups that were responsible for the formation and eventual success of the insurgency. And the Americans had months before the insurgency even began and yet they did nothing but contribute towards its creation. The occupation was bungled from the word go. Day 1 the Iraqi people and the whole world saw as the American soldiers did nothing while Baghdad was looted. I suggest you read "Fiasco" by Thomas Ricks and then you'll realize how badly Americans have screwed things from the very first day.

As obscene as it is to watch how badly the Americans have messed up, its even more obscene to see some of our fellow citizens try to blame the Iraqis.

 

[Cognescenti]

If that is true, it is the most Idiotic thing a country as small as Israel can do. With each nuke in storage the risk of a nuclear mishap greatly increases. It is not a question if a nuclear accident will happen it is just a question of when. With that many in storage, Israel must be suicidal. Their national anthem should be changed to "Will We go Boom Today" One small mishap and it is sayanora Israel.

Woodrow;

I can understand being a bit nervous about nuclear weapons, but you are worrying about the wrong things. I am 100% certain there has never been an accidental nuclear detonation. There have been weapons lost (at sea for eg...numerous Soviet subs and lost from airplanes...off Spain, US bomber in the 50's or 60's..subsequently recovered). One time a Titan missile blew up in its silo (chemical explosion) during service and actually ejected the intact warhead a couple of hundred meters.

Israel isn't suicidal...that is exactly why they have nukes..they are trying to prevent their extermination.

BTW..if they really do have a high-yield hydrogen bomb...there can only be one purpose for it...to destroy the capital city of an enemy.

They are also publicly warning western governments to get serious with Iran. Quite possibly, the timing of this report is no accident.

 

[Woodrow]

I do not beleive there is a single person posting here that knows the how and whys of what is happening in Iraq.

I kind of view Iraq as being a burning building right now and the people are trapped in it. They have no way of knowing who is feeding the flames and who is trying to put the fire out.

we are seeing and hearing the stories of people that are trying their best to bring an end to the situation. It is one thing for us to look in without being bothered by the flames and smoke. It is something else to be in the midst of the flames and the door ways clouded by smoke.

 

[MTAFFI]

Mtaffi and keltoi,

The difference is that the insurgents didn't pick this battle. The US did. No Invasion of Iraq , No insurgency. Period. So as far as I'm concerned you can chalk that up to the US too. Actually it was American screwups that were responsible for the formation and eventual success of the insurgency. And the Americans had months before the insurgency even began and yet they did nothing but contribute towards its creation. The occupation was bungled from the word go. Day 1 the Iraqi people and the whole world saw as the American soldiers did nothing while Baghdad was looted. I suggest you read "Fiasco" by Thomas Ricks and then you'll realize how badly Americans have screwed things from the very first day.

As obscene as it is to watch how badly the Americans have messed up, its even more obscene to see some of our fellow citizens try to blame the Iraqis.

It amazes me how you justify this, there was no insurgency because no one was going to say anything about Saddam, to say the Americans are responsible for Iraqis killing Iraqis makes no sense, you are saying that basically if a dictator is taken from his position, then the country that did it is responsible for the maniacs that decide they want to take over the country?!?!

Also please do tell what success the insurgency has had? They have managed to kill hundreds of thousands of Iraqis! WoW what an acheivement, if the US went in and killed hundreds of thousands of Iraqis you would call it genocide but because Iraqis are doing it, it is a resistance. Ask yourself this, who are they resisting? Why havent they killed 100,000 US troops? I can tell you real quick why, because they arent even fighting against the US troops, they are fighting against the Iraqis who oppose them so that they can create severe instability and gain political power, they also want a safe haven for their terrorist attacks and a country that they can conduct the operations through. If you do not see this you are blind

As far as miscalculations and mishaps in Iraq by the US, yes there has been many, but it is still not the US's fault that these people cannot act civilized. They want violence and total dictatorship (the insurgents) so that they may do whatever they want.

 

[Cognescenti]

Mtaffi and keltoi,

The difference is that the insurgents didn't pick this battle. The US did. No Invasion of Iraq , No insurgency. Period. So as far as I'm concerned you can chalk that up to the US too. Actually it was American screwups that were responsible for the formation and eventual success of the insurgency. And the Americans had months before the insurgency even began and yet they did nothing but contribute towards its creation. The occupation was bungled from the word go. Day 1 the Iraqi people and the whole world saw as the American soldiers did nothing while Baghdad was looted. I suggest you read "Fiasco" by Thomas Ricks and then you'll realize how badly Americans have screwed things from the very first day.

As obscene as it is to watch how badly the Americans have messed up, its even more obscene to see some of our fellow citizens try to blame the Iraqis.

Thomas Ricks aside, it is preposterous to assert that looting in Bagdhad permitted the formation of the insurgency. In reality, the future insurgents were in full retreat after the fall of Bagdhad. They needed time to retreat, reorganize, obtain funding, access weapons caches, gain intel...etc etc etc.
In essence, you are saying, the coalition force won too quickly.

Who do you think started the campaign against the Shia? It was Zarqawi...not the Baathist hardcores. Mistakes were made...just as they have been in every military campaign from pre-history, but to absolve Iraqi sectarian violence as simply an adaptation to uncertainty is just wrong. Where do you think Zarqawi got most of his one-way chauffers? I will answer it...from Morrocco and Yemen and Jordan and Saudi Arabia...et cetera.

If you ask me, the US chief mistake was failing to understand how easily sectarian hatred could be manipulated by troublemakers. We also seriously overestimated the willingness of Iraqis to accept a pluralistic democracy.

 

[thirdwatch512]

This parallels so much with what happened over Iraq. Now I hear US has plans to attack Iran. One thing can lead to other as happened before first world war... so again history gonna repeat itself?

trust me.. america will NOT attack iran. the democrats won't let that happen.

israel though has made threats saying that if america doesn't attack, they will. and if israel attacks iran, we can be rest assured a major war will break out. at the same time though, if israel doesn't attack, i wouldn't be surprised if iran used those nukes and a war would still happen.

all in all, i pray that no attacks happen, and then in 2008 hopefully america will get a good, anti war president that will stop all of this genocide nonsense.

 

[Jibril]

Wow. I can't wait to pick your post apart. Here we go.

It amazes me how you justify this, there was no insurgency because no one was going to say anything about Saddam, to say the Americans are responsible for Iraqis killing Iraqis makes no sense, you are saying that basically if a dictator is taken from his position, then the country that did it is responsible for the maniacs that decide they want to take over the country?!?!

I'm not justifying anything nor do I need to. There was no insurgency under Saddam because there wasn't a 145,000 strong foreign army in Iraqi territory. Dictators are all bad but they are a reality of the world we live in. That doesn't give America the right to go around acting like boyscouts and remove any dictator they want without thinking of the consequences. Americans are responsible for the killings because as an occupying power, the security of the Iraqi people fell on their shoulders. And they failed because of incompetence. PERIOD FULL STOP!!!

Also please do tell what success the insurgency has had?

Success is measured in terms of what your goals are. The insurgency's goals were to disrupt the occupation, thwart the new Iraqi government whom they viewed as colloborators, and establish a wedge between the different sects. In all 3 areas they have succeded quite well. So they have had success everyone and their dog knows this I don't know why you grasp that they insurgency has been successful.

They have managed to kill hundreds of thousands of Iraqis! WoW what an acheivement, if the US went in and killed hundreds of thousands of Iraqis you would call it genocide but because Iraqis are doing it, it is a resistance. Ask yourself this, who are they resisting? .

I never once supported the insurgency's methods nor even their goals. You're just assuming I do. Maybe you should learn to actually read my posts.And the insurgency has not killed hundreds of thousands, its all evenly spread between the Americans, the death squads, and the insurgents and all three groups have been butchering people left and right.

Why havent they killed 100,000 US troops? I can tell you real quick why, because they arent even fighting against the US troops, they are fighting against the Iraqis who oppose them so that they can create severe instability and gain political power, they also want a safe haven for their terrorist attacks and a country that they can conduct the operations through. If you do not see this you are blind

Good lord man!!! How naive are you? You think its so easy to kill 100,000 US troops? Are you nuts? They've killed over 3,000 and counting. They've injured 20,000 troops,....of these, it is estimated that about 10,000 had wounds so severe that they would not have survived only 15 years ago. The Iraq War so far has produced more amputees than Vietnam and World War 2 put together. Who do you think is doing all this? Jeez. Talk about me being blind.

As far as miscalculations and mishaps in Iraq by the US, yes there has been many, but it is still not the US's fault that these people cannot act civilized. They want violence and total dictatorship (the insurgents) so that they may do whatever they want.

No. The insurgents don't want to be marginalized, thats why they are fighting. You are completely ignoring the dynamic of Shia domination and the fact that as soon as the war ended, the US occupation totally marginalized the Sunnis. The De-baathification program is a good example of that.


Keep living in a dream where the US is not responsible for the collapse of Iraq. Thats not how I see it, and thats not how 95% of the world sees it.

 

[Jibril]

Thomas Ricks aside, it is preposterous to assert that looting in Bagdhad permitted the formation of the insurgency. In reality, the future insurgents were in full retreat after the fall of Bagdhad. They needed time to retreat, reorganize, obtain funding, access weapons caches, gain intel...etc etc etc.
In essence, you are saying, the coalition force won too quickly.

Who do you think started the campaign against the Shia? It was Zarqawi...not the Baathist hardcores. Mistakes were made...just as they have been in every military campaign from pre-history, but to absolve Iraqi sectarian violence as simply an adaptation to uncertainty is just wrong. Where do you think Zarqawi got most of his one-way chauffers? I will answer it...from Morrocco and Yemen and Jordan and Saudi Arabia...et cetera.

If you ask me, the US chief mistake was failing to understand how easily sectarian hatred could be manipulated by troublemakers. We also seriously overestimated the willingness of Iraqis to accept a pluralistic democracy.

The looting was just 1 example out of many. The US contributed to the insurgency by

a- Desolving the army. (provided the manpower)

b- being extremely disrespectful to the iraqi population. (helped recruitment efforts)

c- failing to have adequate manpower to do the policing (left a vacuum).

I could go on and on. Again, read 'Fiasco',..its based on the interviews of many highly respected US military officers, soldiers, and decision makers. Everything i'm saying is straight from the book.

Zarqawi and his gang were 1 faction out of many.

 

[islamway]

If that is true, it is the most Idiotic thing a country as small as Israel can do. With each nuke in storage the risk of a nuclear mishap greatly increases. It is not a question if a nuclear accident will happen it is just a question of when. With that many in storage, Israel must be suicidal. Their national anthem should be changed to "Will We go Boom Today" One small mishap and it is sayanora Israel.

VANUNU AN ISRAELI SCIENTIST WHO HAS EXPOSED THE HYDROGEN BOMB
Vanunu on Israel: “They can bombard any city all over the world, and not only those in Europe but also those in the United States, and by this threat what they are doing is to send a secret message to any leader and to any government that they have the ability to use them aggressively and to blackmail them, to blackmail Europe and the United States, every where, in every state around the world. It was Europe and the United States who helped them get this power, and now that Israel has it, she is coming back and saying to them ‘We will not obey any orders that you give us. No international law, no international agreement, no UN resolutions,’ and all because of these atomic weapons that they have.”

Transcript of interview with Mordechai Vanunu on the television program:
Current Issues with Dr. Hesham Tillawi:

TILLAWI. ‘Well, I do believe that we have Mordechai Vanunu with us…Mordechai, are you with us?

VANUNU. Yes.

TILLAWI. Good Morning, I know that it is 4 o’clock in the morning there in Jerusalem. Folks, Mordechai Vanunu has spent 18 years in an Israeli jail for telling Israeli nuclear secrets. He was lured to Rome by Israeli agents and kidnapped and then sent back to Israel where he spent 18 yrs in prison and 11 of those years in solitary confinement. That is true, Mordechai?

VANUNU. Yes, that is right.

TILLAWI Now, Mordechai, I have a question for you. What was it that you really felt that you must tell the world about, what was it about the Israeli nuclear program that you felt to yourself, ‘you know I cannot continue like this, I cannot remain silent on this, I have got to tell the world about it.’ What was it?

VANUNU Well, the most important point is that it was the same situation that we have right now, namely that these people continue to lie and to cheat the world as well as their own citizens by denying the truth, by declaring that they do not have atomic weapons while at the same time I was working there helping to produce them. At that time there were more than 200 atomic weapons, in 1986, and it was at that time that they started to produce the most horrible of all weapons, the hydrogen bomb…all of this in secret, in lying and in cheating the world and all of its citizens. So I said to myself ‘It is impossible to keep these secrets. I must report about them and to try and stop it.’


TILLAWI Mordechai, there are a lot of nations that have nuclear weapons. What is it about Israel having them that makes you so nervous?

VANUNU Because Israel wants to use them, to cause genocide and holocaust on other innocent citizens. It has always been a part of Israel’s secret policy. And also by having them, Israel will use them as a threat to avoid making peace with the Arab world as well as imposing her policies on those peoples. As long as she has them, she will continue on in her policies of not making peace, of occupation and of neglecting the Palestinian suffering caused by the refugee camps that have existed for more than 50 years.

TILLAWI One of the Israeli professors said a few months ago that ‘we have the nuclear capability of hitting every major European city,’ is that true to your knowledge?

VANUNU Yes, it is true. They can bombard any city all over the world, and not only those in Europe but also those in the United States, and by this threat what they are doing is to send a secret message to any leader and to any government that they have the ability to use them aggressively and to blackmail them, to blackmail Europe and the United States, every where, in every state around the world. It was Europe and the United States who helped them get this power, and now that Israel has it, she is coming back and saying to them ‘We will not obey any orders that you give us. No international law, no international agreement, no UN resolutions,’ and all because of these atomic weapons that they have.

TILLAWI Where do you live now Mordechai?

VANUNU Since my release in 2004 I am not allowed to leave the country, all this after serving 18 years. So I decided that I wanted to be someplace where I will not see the ugliness of Jewish society, so I decided to stay in East Jerusalem among Palestinians and among foreigners. Right now I am staying in the guesthouse of St. George’s Cathedral, the Anglican Church. I cannot leave Israel, so I am living amongst the Palestinians and under Israeli occupation, because East Jerusalem is part of the occupation since 1967.

TILLAWI Now, you also have converted from Judaism to Christianity, is that right?

VANUNU Yes

TILLAWI Now, I have a question for you, and I do not want to put you on the spot, but two things happened in your life that are profound. The first is that, according to some people, you betrayed Israel and in their eyes you are considered a traitor, but that is not what I want to ask you about. What I do want to ask you is this: What is the process that went through your head twice in your life? One of them is when you decided to expose the nuclear capability of Israel, your own country, and the other one which is also profound was when you changed your religion to Christianity. Now, those two things are profound and I do not think that there are too many people in the world who have two major shifts in their lives like these. What made Mordechai Vanunu betray his country and then change his religion?

VANUNU Yes, this is a very good question and very important. You are right, it is not usual to have a person come to these hard conclusions. As far as my conversion, it started at the very early age of 15 or 16. I was raised in the Jewish religion and in a Jewish family. Israel and Judaism were considered as one nation, one big family, one tribe. I began criticizing and rejecting Judaism over the point of view that these Jews are teaching injustice through their Judaism. In the same way that Jesus Christ also criticized Judaism 2,000 years ago, I was unwilling to accept what they teach, and later converted to the opposite of Judaism.

The Jewish tribe teaches that there is only one Chosen people of God. They teach of their superiority, taking literally word-by-word the writings in the old bible. And I decided therefore that after 2,000 years these ideas were nonsense. There are 6 billion people around the world, and all of them are equal, all are part of the human race. There is no such thing as a super race. We should all respect and love each other, and that was the beginning of my rejecting Judaism and my accepting of Christianity, of following the teachings of Jesus Christ and of accepting humanity.

I am not a religious man, I am not going to become a priest. I did all of this for my humanity and for my beliefs. So, I chose my own way and began criticizing the Jewish faith. Those who teach Judaism run the lives of those under them, telling them what they must do every hour of every day, issuing many orders about everything, from waking up in the morning to going to sleep, but at the same time they do not teach them to respect other human beings, to accept non-Jews and to believe that non-Jews are like them. They teach that only the Jews are the chosen people. So, this is Judaism, a collection of primitive traditions thousands of years old that have not changed.

The world has changed in the last 2,000 years and the Jewish people need to accept and understand this change, and especially if they want a democratic country. You cannot have a state and run it as they did 2,000 years ago. They came to Palestine in the name of the Bible and in the name of their god and took this land that was promised to them thousands of years ago. In the name of this god, they took the land, expelled the people and gave them hard, cruel, barbaric lives for the last 60 years. This way of thinking, this faith cannot exist within this new age, and it was this that also led me to expose Israel’s nuclear secrets.

TILLAWI Mordechai, you have been living amongst the Palestinians for a while now. What do you think, are they the terrorists that we have all been hearing about?

VANUNU I have been living amongst the Palestinians now for 15 months, but I have been following the Palestinian situation now since the 1980’s. Now I am here living among them, watching them, meeting with them, eating with them, enjoying life with them and seeing how the Israelis have succeeded in portraying them all over the world as terrorists. But this is not true. They are very peaceful people and lovers of peace.

TILLAWI What do you think should happen? How do you think that this conflict should be settled?

VANUNU Well, if the Jewish people want a solution, it can happen only by one way, and this is by accepting the Palestinians and by treating them as equal human beings. If the Israelis want peace, then the proof that you want peace is by respecting the people of the other side and seeing them as equals. The Jews must stop seeing themselves as being part of a master race. The only solution is one state, one society where everyone has equal rights and have the same rights in all categories. If the Jews have the right of return based on what happened 2,000 years ago, then the Palestinians have the right of return after 50 years as well. With one state, there will be no more conflict over land and there will be no more enemies. Israel will then not need atomic weapons because she will learn to live in peace with her neighbors instead of trying to live as a racist supremacist state. The Israelis are not willing to accept this though because they want a Jewish state. Therefore, a secular, non-religious state is the only solution.

TILLAWI. Of course, Israel will not accept this option because of demographic concerns.

VANUNU Yes, that is true and has always been part of Israel’s plan. This has been the reason for Israel not accepting refugees and for isolating the Palestinians in places such as Gaza.

TILLAWI. What do you think of the Gaza withdrawal?

VANUNU The Gaza withdrawal was nothing but a big piece of propaganda trying to show how the Jews were being forced off their land. Of course, what they do not say is the fact that this land was Palestinian land and that it was taken from them by force. So the Zionists used this for brainwashing the people in the United States into thinking about Jewish suffering. But secretly the plan is to use this as a way of isolating 1.4 million Palestinians. The demographic issue is very strong in the mind of the Jewish people and so what they want to do is to eventually move all the Palestinian people into this very small area. All the while, the Sharon government continues to build more settlements in the West Bank.

TILLAWI Back in 1999, 35 members of Congress wrote a letter to President Clinton a concerning you. His response to that letter was “I share with you your concern over Vanunu’s plight and over Israel’s nuclear program. We have repeatedly urged Israel to adhere to the treaty and to accept comprehensive international atomic energy safeguards and inspections.” To your knowledge, have the Israeli nuclear sites ever been inspected by an international nuclear agency?

VANUNU No, it has never opened its program to international inspections.

TILLAWI So, why are we after Iran then to open its doors to inspections, but no one is asking Israel to do the same? Why is that?

VANUNU This is a very strange situation that has been developed and accepted by the Western states since the 1960’s. It goes back about 40 years. My view is that Europe and America are and have been under a long-term agenda of blackmail by the Israelis. In the first case, the Israelis constantly bring up the Holocaust and what happened to the Jews during WWII, blaming the West for it and then using this as the justification for possessing nuclear weapons as a way of preventing this from ever happening again.

TILLAWI. Mordechai, do you know how many Atomic Weapons they possess?

VANUNU At the time that I first revealed Israel’s nuclear weapons program, they had more than 200 atomic weapons and were able to produce every year about 40 kilograms of plutonium. This amount can be used in making 10 atomic weapons each year. What that means is that since 1986 they were able to make another 200.

TILLAWI In your opinion, against whom do the Israelis plan to use these weapons?

VANUNU Their target has always been the Arab states.

TILLAWI How real do you think this threat really is?

VANUNU It is very, very real. Very, very close. It’s easy. It’s simple. All that they need is one crazy leader in the government. They may use it one day to make the world see that they are very powerful and thus force the world to let them continue on with their racist apartheid state for the Jewish people while not accepting any other solutions and to continue rejecting any real solutions for these problems involving the Palestinian people.

TILLAWI Now, what is your situation? You have a trial coming up soon?


VANUNU My situation now is that they have renewed my restrictions for the 2nd year. I cannot leave the country and I cannot speak to foreigners. I am not allowed to speak to you, but I continue to give interviews, so they came and arrested me on November 11th and questioned me and now have put me in a trial. It began a few weeks ago and will continue on through next year. They are accusing me of giving interviews to foreign media. I also am not allowed to go into the occupied territories, so I cannot go into Bethlehem. That is the situation now. I am facing trial and am under restrictions.

TILLAWI So, in other words you will be getting into trouble for speaking with us tonight?

VANUNU, No, it was for interviews that I gave before. For speaking to you tonight Tillawi I will have to face another trial.

TILLAWI. Mordechai, I want to thank you for being with us. It has been a very informative interview, and I just want to say thank you again and good luck to you.

VANUNU Thank you very much and good luck to you and to your audience, and I hope to be with you all one day soon. Thank you.

TILLAWI Okay folks, that was Mordechai Vanunu, former Israeli nuclear scientist who told the world what was happening in Israel.


___________________________________

Source of transcript:
Current Issues with Dr. Hesham Tillawi
http://www.currentissues.tv/VanunuTranscript.html
http://www.boston.com/news/world/mi...anunus_life_on_hold/?rss_id=Boston.com+/+News
http://www.serve.com/vanunu/
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-234685330662058240&q=Israel's+Secret+Weapon

Audio stream on interview:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/radio4/today/listenagain/ram/today2_vanunu_20040420.ram
http://easylink.playstream.com/currentissues/currentissuesvanunu.wvx

 

[Cognescenti]

Wow. I can't wait to pick your post apart. Here we go.





I'm not justifying anything nor do I need to. There was no insurgency under Saddam because there wasn't a 145,000 strong foreign army in Iraqi territory. Dictators are all bad but they are a reality of the world we live in. That doesn't give America the right to go around acting like boyscouts and remove any dictator they want without thinking of the consequences. Americans are responsible for the killings because as an occupying power, the security of the Iraqi people fell on their shoulders. And they failed because of incompetence. PERIOD FULL STOP!!!

Now hold on there Jibril. On this issue of why there was no insurgency with SH in power???? Do you think it might have something to do with the fact that Saddam heaped economic (and other) rewards on the Sunnis (especially the Tikrit homeboys) in order to engender their loyalty in helping him suppress (often by eradicating whole villages, flooding out the Marsh Arbs, etc etc) the more numerous but politically powerless Shia. After GWI, there was indeed a significant Shia uprising (ie, insurgency) in the South. He killed them all, flattened a few villages...et voila...no insurgency. Ditto the Kurds...that was what the anfal was. Shia/Sunni antagonism isn't really the fault of the Ottomans or the colonial British or the Americans or the UN or cosmic rays. I beleive the schism goes back many centuries and, though somewhat mysterious to me, seems to have something to do with intellectual property rights.


Of course, there was no Sunni insurgency in Iraq with Hussein in power...why should there be..they were the grand Poobahs at the time.