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Is it true that Zionism was founded by atheists?
Questions about Judaism answered by a Jew!
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I might have phrased the above question, Is it true that Zionism was founded by humanist Jews?
So, I would be interested in perhaps an essay on the question if you have time.
So, I would be interested in perhaps an essay on the question if you have time.
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I meant atheist as in, they rejected God and did not go to Israel to fullfill a prophesy.
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Yeah, it's OK. I think we just have two different, but apparently related questions.
rebelishaulman
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The Zionist movement was not founded by any G-d fearing Jews by any mean. The Zionist movement became a strong movement in many of the Jewish communities in Europe after the Holocaust where people lost all of there family and had no where to go. The Zionists did not have the intentions of fufilling a religious prophecy at all. They just wanted a state where Jews could live and be safe and not be governed by non-Jewish goverments which had persecuted so many. One of the major motivations for Zionism was the belief that the Jews needed to return to their historic homeland, not just as a refuge from anti-Semitism, but also to govern themselves as an independent nation. Some Zionists, mainly socialist Zionists, believed that the Jews' centuries of being oppressed in anti-Semitic societies had reduced Jews to a meek, vulnerable, despairing existence which invited further anti-Semitism. They argued that Jews should redeem themselves from their history by becoming farmers, workers, and soldiers in a country of their own. These socialist Zionists generally rejected religion.
They did a pretty good job in building a country to. Tel Aviv the largest city in Israel began with Zionists building a community on sand dunes they purchased.
Before:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Telaviv_founding_1909.jpg
After:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Azrli_65.JPG
The religious communities in Europe however rejected Zionism on the grounds that the Moshiach was to lead the Jews to Israel and noone should hasten this process nor should a Jewish state be created before the Moshiach.
The three oaths is an important part of this:
What are these three oaths? 1.)One that Israel not “ascend the wall” [Rashi: together, by force]: 2.)one that the Holy One, Blessed be He, adjured Israel not to rebel against the nations of the world: 3.)and one that the Holy One, Blessed be He, adjured the nations of the world not to oppress Israel overmuch.
So basically, this means that the Jews may not take Israel by force according to the first oath. However, the country of Israel was created by a vote in the UN, so some would say the country may have been taken by force, others say it may not have. The second oath states that the Jews should not rebel against the countries that host them during the exile (golus). I do not believe that ever happend. The third oath is the tricky one. The Nations of the world were not allowed to opress the Jews to much. Now 6 million Jews died in the Holocaust, so was that overmuch? I am inclined to think so.
The Rabbi's disagree on this, many feel that the oath broken by the gentiles made the other oaths broken to saying that the oaths were all dependant on eachother, in other words, as long as the Gentile nations do not opress Jews to much, then the Jews should not rebel nor seek a state in the Holy Land.
Some Rabbi's say what the gentiles did was not dependant on our oaths. They believe the state of Israel should not be before the Moshiach. However, the group that protests the state of Israel with anti-semites and people who have Jewish blood on there hands have been excommunicated from Judaism (issued cherems) by many Rabbi's. But anti-Zionism which does not invlove being with anti-Jews does exist in the ultra-religious Jewish community. These people however, realize that the to attack other Jews, or protest with anti-Jews is a terrible sin, worse than the state of Israel!
I personally am under the opinion that Zionism is not a correct view for a religious Jew. However, Israel is a fact of life now, and the Arab world wants to destroy Israel so bad and is in such a frenzy that to save Jewish life is the most important thing which is Jewish law. Therefore, if the state is given back to the Arabs, many Jews will die (no matter what deals Arabs claim to give Israel). Israel therefore must be supported because the goverment is the defender of Jewish life in the Holy Land. Peace must be aquired somehow but since this may not be possible, it is a tough descion to recongnize a Palestinian state which may be a base of operation to kill more Jews.
Therefore, Jewish life is the most important, and the Israeli goverment, defends these lives currently, but sometimes makes terrible descions putting Jewish life in much harm. The zionists are also better then the ultra religious bannished from our communtiy because they are involved with anti-semites who have Jewish blood on there hands.
The Arabs didnt always hate Jews. At least, not more - and usually a lot less - than the Christians. If you check out the prior discussion in this forum, youll see that the Jews enjoyed a relatively (relatively) peaceful and friendly relationship with the Arabs for two thousand years. Of course, there were always evil or insane ARab warlords or leaders who persecuted Jews, but they persecuted others as well, and the Arab governments as a whole were not at all interrested in harming the Jewsh population within their own borders, or elsewhere.
Jews fought side by side with the Arabs against the Crusaders, and, all the way up till the Old Yishuv, had a cordial relationship with their Arab neighbors (for a description of the ARab-Jewish relaitonship in Eretz Yisroel in those days, check otu the ARtScroll book on Rav Yosef Chiam Zonnenfeld, where it is described vividly).
All that ended when the Jewish state issue came up and the Holocaust happend. The ARabs living there didnt like immigration of Jews at all. This caused Arabs infuriation against Jews. There is no question that the Arabs now want to kill Jews even if you hate someone, you cant murder them! But as the cycle of mistrust and hatred grows on both sides, it becomes more and mroe impossible to even have peace.
It is true, that the Arabs hate us now, so now support must be towards who saves Jewish life, who defends Jewish life. Thw would be the secular goverment of Israel. Remember, to save your life, or another all laws may be broken except murder, idolatry and adultry.
However, the Rabbi's say that the Jews will suffer a lot and the Moshiach may save them and even "fight the wars of G-d" so hopefully the Moshiach will come soon and save the whole world from this violence!
Although all the great and powerful ancient nations are gone, the Jews, have survived.
This is because the Jews throughout the centuries knew the secret of survival. Jewish survival, at least.
That is, whereas the other Nations survive based on who is stronger, where the Jewish nation is concerned, it is just the opposite. For us to remain safe, we are instructed by Hashem in the Gemora in Kesuvos not to defy the nations of the world, even when we are right and they are wrong. We do not survive by waging wars or by any show pf physical strength. On the contrary - the less we are in conflict with the nations of the world, the safer we are. The more we are in conflict with them, the more deadly it is for us. Regardless of how physically "strong" we are.
This is how we have so miraculaously survived two thousand years of (exile) Golus. By following the instructions of Torah and our sages throughout the generations: Do NOT fight with the Goyim.
If we do fight with them, we can only lose r"l. The Gemora says the result will be that Jewis blood will be spilled "like that of game hunted in the field."
Writes Rabbeinu Bachya (Vayishlach): "So too we must follow the ways of our ancestors, and to prepare ourselves to engage the [Goyim] with gifts and with soft speech, and by praying to Hashem. But [to engage them] with war is not possible, as it says (Shir HaShirim 2:7) 'I have made you swear....' Hashem made the Jews swear that they will not confront the nations of the world in war." However, self defense or protection of Jewish life is a justifyable means for war.
They did a pretty good job in building a country to. Tel Aviv the largest city in Israel began with Zionists building a community on sand dunes they purchased.
Before:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Telaviv_founding_1909.jpg
After:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Azrli_65.JPG
The religious communities in Europe however rejected Zionism on the grounds that the Moshiach was to lead the Jews to Israel and noone should hasten this process nor should a Jewish state be created before the Moshiach.
The three oaths is an important part of this:
What are these three oaths? 1.)One that Israel not “ascend the wall” [Rashi: together, by force]: 2.)one that the Holy One, Blessed be He, adjured Israel not to rebel against the nations of the world: 3.)and one that the Holy One, Blessed be He, adjured the nations of the world not to oppress Israel overmuch.
So basically, this means that the Jews may not take Israel by force according to the first oath. However, the country of Israel was created by a vote in the UN, so some would say the country may have been taken by force, others say it may not have. The second oath states that the Jews should not rebel against the countries that host them during the exile (golus). I do not believe that ever happend. The third oath is the tricky one. The Nations of the world were not allowed to opress the Jews to much. Now 6 million Jews died in the Holocaust, so was that overmuch? I am inclined to think so.
The Rabbi's disagree on this, many feel that the oath broken by the gentiles made the other oaths broken to saying that the oaths were all dependant on eachother, in other words, as long as the Gentile nations do not opress Jews to much, then the Jews should not rebel nor seek a state in the Holy Land.
Some Rabbi's say what the gentiles did was not dependant on our oaths. They believe the state of Israel should not be before the Moshiach. However, the group that protests the state of Israel with anti-semites and people who have Jewish blood on there hands have been excommunicated from Judaism (issued cherems) by many Rabbi's. But anti-Zionism which does not invlove being with anti-Jews does exist in the ultra-religious Jewish community. These people however, realize that the to attack other Jews, or protest with anti-Jews is a terrible sin, worse than the state of Israel!
I personally am under the opinion that Zionism is not a correct view for a religious Jew. However, Israel is a fact of life now, and the Arab world wants to destroy Israel so bad and is in such a frenzy that to save Jewish life is the most important thing which is Jewish law. Therefore, if the state is given back to the Arabs, many Jews will die (no matter what deals Arabs claim to give Israel). Israel therefore must be supported because the goverment is the defender of Jewish life in the Holy Land. Peace must be aquired somehow but since this may not be possible, it is a tough descion to recongnize a Palestinian state which may be a base of operation to kill more Jews.
Therefore, Jewish life is the most important, and the Israeli goverment, defends these lives currently, but sometimes makes terrible descions putting Jewish life in much harm. The zionists are also better then the ultra religious bannished from our communtiy because they are involved with anti-semites who have Jewish blood on there hands.
The Arabs didnt always hate Jews. At least, not more - and usually a lot less - than the Christians. If you check out the prior discussion in this forum, youll see that the Jews enjoyed a relatively (relatively) peaceful and friendly relationship with the Arabs for two thousand years. Of course, there were always evil or insane ARab warlords or leaders who persecuted Jews, but they persecuted others as well, and the Arab governments as a whole were not at all interrested in harming the Jewsh population within their own borders, or elsewhere.
Jews fought side by side with the Arabs against the Crusaders, and, all the way up till the Old Yishuv, had a cordial relationship with their Arab neighbors (for a description of the ARab-Jewish relaitonship in Eretz Yisroel in those days, check otu the ARtScroll book on Rav Yosef Chiam Zonnenfeld, where it is described vividly).
All that ended when the Jewish state issue came up and the Holocaust happend. The ARabs living there didnt like immigration of Jews at all. This caused Arabs infuriation against Jews. There is no question that the Arabs now want to kill Jews even if you hate someone, you cant murder them! But as the cycle of mistrust and hatred grows on both sides, it becomes more and mroe impossible to even have peace.
It is true, that the Arabs hate us now, so now support must be towards who saves Jewish life, who defends Jewish life. Thw would be the secular goverment of Israel. Remember, to save your life, or another all laws may be broken except murder, idolatry and adultry.
However, the Rabbi's say that the Jews will suffer a lot and the Moshiach may save them and even "fight the wars of G-d" so hopefully the Moshiach will come soon and save the whole world from this violence!
Although all the great and powerful ancient nations are gone, the Jews, have survived.
This is because the Jews throughout the centuries knew the secret of survival. Jewish survival, at least.
That is, whereas the other Nations survive based on who is stronger, where the Jewish nation is concerned, it is just the opposite. For us to remain safe, we are instructed by Hashem in the Gemora in Kesuvos not to defy the nations of the world, even when we are right and they are wrong. We do not survive by waging wars or by any show pf physical strength. On the contrary - the less we are in conflict with the nations of the world, the safer we are. The more we are in conflict with them, the more deadly it is for us. Regardless of how physically "strong" we are.
This is how we have so miraculaously survived two thousand years of (exile) Golus. By following the instructions of Torah and our sages throughout the generations: Do NOT fight with the Goyim.
If we do fight with them, we can only lose r"l. The Gemora says the result will be that Jewis blood will be spilled "like that of game hunted in the field."
Writes Rabbeinu Bachya (Vayishlach): "So too we must follow the ways of our ancestors, and to prepare ourselves to engage the [Goyim] with gifts and with soft speech, and by praying to Hashem. But [to engage them] with war is not possible, as it says (Shir HaShirim 2:7) 'I have made you swear....' Hashem made the Jews swear that they will not confront the nations of the world in war." However, self defense or protection of Jewish life is a justifyable means for war.
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Edit:
Wrong section..sorry guys lol.
Wrong section..sorry guys lol.
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rebelishaulman
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I edited more in if you wish to read it. I was not done.
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In about a week I will be teaching a lesson in which I am sure a question will arise concern the Jewish name for G-d. The verse in question is Exodus 3:14.
Now, I have been taught my whole life that Jews never pronounced the name which we Christians would write as Yahweh. That for Jews it is just YHWH. Is this correct? That the vowels were taken form the word for Lord. But I think I am getting this last part confused with the creation of the English word Jehovah, where the vowels of Adonai were put between the consonants of the tetragram to create the word YeHoWaH, which then got changed to Jehovah.
Straighten me out on this if you can, please.
Am I correct that though most English texts translate the phrase as "I am who I am." That perhaps a better rendering is, "I will be who I will be."?
Now, I have been taught my whole life that Jews never pronounced the name which we Christians would write as Yahweh. That for Jews it is just YHWH. Is this correct? That the vowels were taken form the word for Lord. But I think I am getting this last part confused with the creation of the English word Jehovah, where the vowels of Adonai were put between the consonants of the tetragram to create the word YeHoWaH, which then got changed to Jehovah.
Straighten me out on this if you can, please.
Am I correct that though most English texts translate the phrase as "I am who I am." That perhaps a better rendering is, "I will be who I will be."?
rebelishaulman
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I'm sorry but I cannot even trype that word. We are never to pronounce it and I would advise you to not as well. For that word we say the Hebrew word of "L-rd" which is "Ad-noi"
(the dash "-" is replaced by an "o" in both words.)
The first letter of the word is a "yud" which makes the "Y" sound. I have no clue where the "J" came from, but the Hebrew name for Joshua is "Yehoshua" so I guess it is just a reality in the English language.
In Sanhedrin 90a, it is stated in that Mishna:
The following have no share in the world to come... "Abba Shaul said: Also he who speaks out the Holy Name with its vocals."
(Talmud, Sanhedrin 90a)
Read this footnote to gain understanding of the topic:
http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/Talmud/sanhedrin11.html#fn_81
Best translation would be Hashem said to Moses, "Ehyeh asher ehyeh (I will be what I will be)," and He said, "So shall you say to the children of Israel, 'Ehyeh (I will be) has sent me to you.'
(the dash "-" is replaced by an "o" in both words.)
The first letter of the word is a "yud" which makes the "Y" sound. I have no clue where the "J" came from, but the Hebrew name for Joshua is "Yehoshua" so I guess it is just a reality in the English language.
In Sanhedrin 90a, it is stated in that Mishna:
The following have no share in the world to come... "Abba Shaul said: Also he who speaks out the Holy Name with its vocals."
(Talmud, Sanhedrin 90a)
Read this footnote to gain understanding of the topic:
http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/Talmud/sanhedrin11.html#fn_81
Best translation would be Hashem said to Moses, "Ehyeh asher ehyeh (I will be what I will be)," and He said, "So shall you say to the children of Israel, 'Ehyeh (I will be) has sent me to you.'
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Is it true that the Talmud describes Mary as a prostitute?
rebelishaulman
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No. Can you point out where in the Talmud it may lead you to think this?
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Sanhedrin 106a . Says Jesus' mother was a w-hore: "She who was the descendant of princes and governors played the harlot with carpenters." Also in footnote #2 to Shabbath 104b of the Soncino edition, it is stated that in the "uncensored" text of the Talmud it is written that Jesus mother, "Miriam the hairdresser," had sex with many men.
rebelishaulman
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First off, there is no socino edition online, so if your reading the one I think you are, you are reading one that is altered at the editor of the sites discretion.
Now for the refutations:
http://talmud.faithweb.com/articles/jesus.html#harlot
http://talmud.faithweb.com/articles/jesusnarr.html#benstada
Now for the refutations:
http://talmud.faithweb.com/articles/jesus.html#harlot
http://talmud.faithweb.com/articles/jesusnarr.html#benstada
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What is a socino edition?
Also, what is the real translation of the verse?
Also, why is the Torah so anti-Christian? For example:
"Christians are allied with Hell, and Christianity is worse than incest". (Abodah Zarah 17a, p.85).
"WHEN MESSIAH COMES HE WILL DESTROY THE CHRISTIANS". (Sanhedrin 99a,p.668).
Also, what is the real translation of the verse?
Also, why is the Torah so anti-Christian? For example:
"Christians are allied with Hell, and Christianity is worse than incest". (Abodah Zarah 17a, p.85).
"WHEN MESSIAH COMES HE WILL DESTROY THE CHRISTIANS". (Sanhedrin 99a,p.668).
rebelishaulman
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It was a typo for "Soncino" edition.
The refutation links I gave you, present you with the verses.
The Torah is not anti-christian because there was no christianity before the Torah. The Talmud is what you are refering to. If you have a grip on history, you would find that thousands of little genocides and massacres have been commited against the Jews by Christians, so who hates who? When did the Jews kill thousands of Christians? Christianity seems to be much more anti-Jewish than Judaism is anti-Christian.
Where did you ever read that from?
Please show me where you found this to. There is no such quote.
(I copy and pasted what you wrote, and it seems you like reading anti-semetic sites because these are where your baseless accusations come from.)
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rebelishaulman
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What is this exactly? The website that is the first one on the page is an anti-Jewish link that promotes "Jewish conpiracies" and has actually edited the Talmud to make it seem evil. Sad.
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That is why I provided a google link. Almost all the results in the first 3 pages have the same translation. Do that verse true?
rebelishaulman
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Are you kidding? All the first 3 pages are taken from neo-nazi, white supremist, anti-jewish, and "christian fundamentalist" sites.
Can you present me with a unbias site from that google search? I could also put some searches into google and find a ton of anti-islamic sites. Does this mean they are true?
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Then what does Yebamoth 59b actually say?
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