Things in Islam I am curious about...

If we as Muslims learned that listening to music or eating pork would make us live longer healthier lives, would we do it? Why not? Because the reason for doing something is not based on logic, it is based on fearing your Lord and doing what he commands.
Well that does categorise not just Islamic thought but all submissive thought. What I see above is not an example of righteousness in my eyes, but an example of oppression based upon fear. That is a worrying thing to see from my perspective. I do not deem it a positive option to apply a system of fear willingly into yourself on the basis of faith. It is anti-rational and dangerous

If you are willing to defy logic on the basis that the one you worship tells you to, then what is the limit of defiance for other people on other faiths? If someone is told that their God they worship thinks you should kill people to please him, but all rational ethical systems say otherwise with reason - according to allegience, the believer should happily kill. The point is that faith is dangerous to society. It promotes a never-changing position of one viewpoint, can advocate conflict and is dangerous for those caught in crossfire.

Onto the topic at hand though. Music is haramm? Well I would agree that a lot of music is indeed repulsive out there and I'm no fan of the cheesy lyrics in pop songs, or the braindead lyrics of R'n'b and I wouldn't be caught listening to it ever. But to suggest that Music itself is inherently going to lead to sex is just paranoia and isn't true. Everything can argubly lead to sex. It is only the imagery in music that can cause any kind of sexual arousal, but that itself is not music. That is imagery.

I myself listen mostly to Heavy Metal, Power Metal, Prog. Metal and a lot of misc. Classic/Epic tracks with a dab of Electronic Music. The lyrics in most are positive, because I like positive and epic music. Many are also fantasy based in lyrical style. Is that bad?

If you don't listen to Music due to the risk of 'being torn away' from worshipping Allah - then entertainment itself should be compromised surely for the same purpose?

Thanks, Skavau.
 
If you are willing to defy logic on the basis that the one you worship tells you to, then what is the limit of defiance for other people on other faiths? If someone is told that their God they worship thinks you should kill people to please him, but all rational ethical systems say otherwise with reason - according to allegience, the believer should happily kill. The point is that faith is dangerous to society. It promotes a never-changing position of one viewpoint, can advocate conflict and is dangerous for those caught in crossfire.
Why are speaking hypothetically here? We are talking about Islam.
Faith is dangerous to society? Have you looked at the crime rate recently? Not believing in God, deeds, or the afterlife, is dangerous to society. If someone is told not to murder someone because you will be punished by God, they will behave a lot better then someone who believes that once they die they will cease to exist.
 
musical instruments are not allowed...'voice' is not classed as a musical instrument so yeah...

the other thing is that musical instruments have an effect on your mind- the sounds etc put your brain in an altered state of conscious which allows whatever the words are to go into your subconscious---which thereby affect you, the music itself affects even if there are no words

the other thing that is forbidden is vain talk, gossip, dirty, lustful poems or songs etc

this is because whatever you hear and see and experience around you goes into your mind and bases your beliefs whether you are consciously aware or not
and your beliefs form your thoughts and your thoughts form your actions...

so environment (influences) =beliefs (form)= thoughts= actions

so you reap what you sow and you sow whatever you allow into your mind
 
Greetings,
musical instruments are not allowed...'voice' is not classed as a musical instrument so yeah...

The idea that the voice is or is not an instrument is an arbitrary classification. I'd describe it as the oldest human musical instrument.

But it seems that what most Muslims object to are the lyrics of songs, not the music. That's why the prohibition seems so upside-down to me.

What harm can a chord change with a melody really do?

Peace
 
Well, I thought I was done with the music question, but I do have another.

This is just for those Muslims who have no objection to songs with the human voice, but do see it as haraam when accompanied by musical instruments.

It sounds like singing a comforting lullaby to put my baby to sleep at night would not be haraam, but if I sang that same song was accompanied by any sort of musical instrument it would be. What makes the difference?
 
:sl: and Hi Grace seeker,
It may be better for you to seek an answer from a scholar or imam since they would know the exact rulings.
 
There are many things that are no allowed in Islam, and the bottom line is in fact because Allaah said so, there is no reason to sit here and argue on what are the harms of music and what are the benefits. That is not the point, the point is that Allaah has made it so that we must abstain from it. Point Blank. I feel that answer " Allaah said so" should be enough for anyone who understands what following a religion is, he, Allaah doesn't have to explain everything to his creation, that is where the role of faith plays in.
I strongly believe that there are more things more important about Islam to be asking then “why is music not allowed”


P.S.
The difference is, that certain harmless musical interment that is used, was the same that was prohibited, that makes all the difference. Its not the matter of being harmless its the principal of the matter. I hope you understand.

I hope I didn’t sound harsh, if you got that impression, I apologize.
 
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Bismillaah hir Rahmaan nir Raheem

[SIZE=-1]'In the name of Allah, Most Gracious, Most Merciful'[/SIZE]

Islam has provide for humanity a concrete and naturalistic way of life based on good by which he/she can conduct his/her life. It calls upon mankind not only to practice moral excellence but also to establish it and to eliminate all which is harmful. It obtains the supremacy of one's conscience in all state of affairs, so that what is harmful cannot gain the favorable position in either an individual's or a society's life. Furthermost, these rights can be realized in one's daily and social life, Islam provides a very effective moral system, “whatever improves the well-being of an individual or a society is morally good, and whatever harms this well-being is morally bad..”

Generally there are moral principles of Islam, but sometimes they are not clear yes and no answers, and particular circumstances will have to be taken into account each time a decision is made. Suicide or euthanasia, for example, Islam's respect for life and the recognition that human life is ultimately owned by God who created it, means that no human being has the right to end one's own life or that of another. In the case of abortion, however, there are situations where the life of the mother has to be put before the life of the child. To protect an already established life if put at risk by a developing life whose survival is still questionable, Islam permits abortion under certain medical conditions.

There are many theories that have derived to define morality. One can try and compare Consequentialism, Deontic Ethics, and Virtue Ethics. Moreover, try and find which concept would best suite them thus, come to a reasonable deduction, but there must be one that is correct in all aspects. Yet what is different about Islam is that it takes into consideration the well being of the norm as well as the individual, it makes laws that are universal same time can suite the individual. A complete, flawless system made with such perfection that till today no man could give a concept even close to these system of rules. Which goes on to prove how it could have only been made by the one and only Creator of all that exists.


Many individuals who do not ascribe themselves to any religion will say that they obey the law of the land and act morally, and do what is morally right, and stay away from that which is morally wrong. It is impossible for people to live along side each other with this kind of mentality, as what one person deems to be morally right, can be seen as morally wrong to another. A modern day example of this is, the cut off age for legalintimate relations in countries around the world, in the USA it varies depending on which state you live in, in the UK it is 17 for males, 16 for females, in South Korea it is 13 for both genders. Now for those living in the UK, it would be immoral for them to have Intimate relations with anyone below the age of 16, whereas countries such as South Korea, find it perfectly acceptable.


In addition to that many wars have been initiated under the banner of morality, but there has been great dispute over this as well. A recent example of this, USA and its few allies decided to invade Iraq, they thought that there was enough justification and it was morally right to do so. However, they came across heavy opposition, and they also argued their case based on morality.

This is the danger of moral relativism, now so widespread in many societies. This is why it’s imperative that one must believe in and live his life in accordance to the divine laws of almighty God. This is something that does not alter or change to suit mans desires. Hence, this corruption is thereby prevented. Another benefit is the gradual internalization of these moral standards, for one seeks to obey them voluntarily to please God, not because some government or people tell him to do so. An individual's belief in God, when added to his belief in the Day of Judgment, is a powerful motivating factor for one to live a highly moral life.

How does one know what is righteous and what is not? On what scales are moralities appraised? We read in the Qur’an:


It is not Al-Birr (piety, righteousness, and each and every act of obedience to Allah, etc.) that you turn your faces towards east and (or) west (in prayers); but Al-Birr is (the quality of) the one who believes in Allah, the Last Day, the Angels, the Book, the Prophets and gives his wealth, in spite of love for it, to the kinsfolk, to the orphans, and to Al-Masakin (the poor), and to the wayfarer, and to those who ask, and to set slaves free, performs As-Salat (Iqamat-as-Salat), and gives the Zakat, and who fulfill their covenant when they make it, and who are As-Sabirin (the patient ones, etc.) in extreme poverty and ailment (disease) and at the time of fighting (during the battles). Such are the people of the truth and they are Al Muttaqun(2:177)

We are given an aesthetic description of the righteous and the religiously committed individual in these verses. This is the standard by which a particular mode of conduct can be analyzed as either good or bad. It also provides the core around which an individual's as well as a societies moral code should form a resolution about. Before laying down any moral enjoinments, Islam tries to securely instill firmly in man's heart the conviction that his dealings are with God, who sees him at all times and in all places. While he may hide himself from others or deceive them, he knows that he cannot do so with God. Islam teaches that the objective of one's life is to live a life that is pleasing to God.

In conclusion, Islam provides mankind with a higher system of morality that can be used by an individual to realize his greatest potential. It removes impurities from the soul of self-seeking pride, dictatorship, immorality and lack of discipline. It creates God-fearing men who are dedicated to their ideals, motivated by piety, abstinence, and discipline, and unable to make any compromise with falsehood. It induces feelings of moral responsibility and fosters the capacity for self-control. It nourishes noble qualities from which only good may be expected. In accompaniment tothat God sent his last and final messenger Muhammad ( may peace and blessings be upon him) to perfect the morals and character of the people, and so that we may use him as a leader and follow in his examples. He taught us how to generate kindness, generosity, mercy, sympathy, peace, tolerance, to be high-principled, fairness, and truthfulness towards all creation in all situations.
 
Islam has provide for humanity a concrete and naturalistic way of life based on good by which he/she can conduct his/her life. It calls upon mankind not only to practice moral excellence but also to establish it and to eliminate all which is harmful.
How is Homosexuality harmful?

It obtains the supremacy of one's conscience in all state of affairs, so that what is harmful cannot gain the favorable position in either an individual's or a society's life. Furthermost, these rights can be realized in one's daily and social life, Islam provides a very effective moral system, “whatever improves the well-being of an individual or a society is morally good, and whatever harms this well-being is morally bad..”
That is a similar position to my own idea of Morality. Mine is that "Do as you will, as long it does not inflict upon the well-being of others."

Generally there are moral principles of Islam, but sometimes they are not clear yes and no answers, and particular circumstances will have to be taken into account each time a decision is made. Suicide or euthanasia, for example, Islam's respect for life and the recognition that human life is ultimately owned by God who created it, means that no human being has the right to end one's own life or that of another.
Ah. But I disagree there. I have no quirks with Euthanasia. If someone wishes to have their life ended due to physical pain, or mental pain - then they are autonomous human beings and have the right to have that request recognised. I do not agree that God created everything so the idea that we shouldn't end our life because God created us means nothing to me and that idea forcefully implemented into a society is an obstruction of independent choice.

There are many theories that have derived to define morality. One can try and compare Consequentialism, Deontic Ethics, and Virtue Ethics. Moreover, try and find which concept would best suite them thus, come to a reasonable deduction, but there must be one that is correct in all aspects.
That is the search.

Yet what is different about Islam is that it takes into consideration the well being of the norm as well as the individual, it makes laws that are universal same time can suite the individual.
Islamic ideals do not suit the individual. What if someone has homosexual lust, or back to the euthanasia point - wishes to die? The individual choice is sacrificed and does not suit many people. Islamic Laws implemented on me would definitely not suit me.

Many individuals who do not ascribe themselves to any religion will say that they obey the law of the land and act morally, and do what is morally right, and stay away from that which is morally wrong. It is impossible for people to live along side each other with this kind of mentality, as what one person deems to be morally right, can be seen as morally wrong to another.
So the article is asserting that disagreement means we should all embrace the views of a single ethical system? Everyone has different views of morality and this is the result of different ethical theories, but these views do not mean that co-existence is impossible. It is typical Islamic Logic that I've noted that suggests that problems should just be covered up. Evidence suggests that societies are able to co-exist peacefully with autonomous individuals in it. A system of law needs to be established in order to uphold order and justice and justice should be based on reason and the infliction of human rights, which it mostly is.

A modern day example of this is, the cut off age for legalintimate relations in countries around the world, in the USA it varies depending on which state you live in, in the UK it is 17 for males, 16 for females, in South Korea it is 13 for both genders. Now for those living in the UK, it would be immoral for them to have Intimate relations with anyone below the age of 16, whereas countries such as South Korea, find it perfectly acceptable.
Yes, that is true. But this Moral Relativism isn't destroying co-existence though - is it?

In addition to that many wars have been initiated under the banner of morality, but there has been great dispute over this as well. A recent example of this, USA and its few allies decided to invade Iraq, they thought that there was enough justification and it was morally right to do so. However, they came across heavy opposition, and they also argued their case based on morality.
Not everyone would agree with Islamic Morality, or Sharia Law. I certainly wouldn't. Does that make it an illegitimate ideology because it is inevitable disagreement enfolds from it?

This is the danger of moral relativism, now so widespread in many societies. This is why it’s imperative that one must believe in and live his life in accordance to the divine laws of almighty God.
Moral Relativism roots from different cultures. I do not agree with Moral Relativism, but I do not see Islam as the unifier of this.

This is something that does not alter or change to suit mans desires. Hence, this corruption is thereby prevented. Another benefit is the gradual internalization of these moral standards, for one seeks to obey them voluntarily to please God, not because some government or people tell him to do so. An individual's belief in God, when added to his belief in the Day of Judgment, is a powerful motivating factor for one to live a highly moral life.
This is the implication that Atheism, or Secularism is not compatible with morality. If you are only moral from religion then you are a weak individual.

While he may hide himself from others or deceive them, he knows that he cannot do so with God. Islam teaches that the objective of one's life is to live a life that is pleasing to God.
I do not believe pleasing the divine is necessary for morality.
 
And that is exacly why we have moral rules that were given to mankind by their creator because in fact we as humans can not lay down the laws of what is moral and what is not.

Why not? I would have thought doing exactly that is part of what makes us human.
 
Bismillaah hir Rahmaan nir Raheem

[SIZE=-1]'In the name of Allah, Most Gracious, Most Merciful'[/SIZE]

As Muslims we can not agree with certain laws and theory’s made by man, because it goes against everything we believe in example such as:

In thermodynamics there is a maxim principal ; a theorem which states that Matter can not be created or destroyed rather it can transform from one form to another, and Einstein’s theory of relativity E = mc2, which is co-relating matter with energy there is a constant level of both energy and matter and it does not increase nor decrease.

We as Muslims can not accept this, for the simple fact that, Allaah creates it and Allaah destroys it.

When humans come up with theory’s of morality, they always change. What was not allowed and not acceptable long ago is now acceptable. What is good and bad changes from time to time and place to place. Its amazing to see that just 100 years ago in this country ( United States ) it was unimaginable for a women to leave her house with out some sort of head covering such as a scarf or a bonnet.

It is also difficult to conceive that just 2 generations ago premarital sex was taboo, and if it did happen they were very ashamed and embarrassed by it. And now, it is said that 60 to 70 % of just high school kids indulge in that same act that was frown upon a couple of generations ago.

1 generation ago, a single mother who conceived out of wed-lock was looked down upon in society so evilly that no respectable women would even dare to have child with out marriage. But in our times, it’s normal.

And the biggest issue that has dramatically change I can say is how the norm now views Homosexuality. I can honestly say as a kid growing up I can remember how that life style was looked down upon and how the average masses viewed such people and the horrible names and crimes that were acted towards them was like. Now look at how we “ regressed” yes regressed. That not even a Jew or a Christian can speak out against it in this day and age. And if they do then they are homophobes and “ how dare they speak against this!” they can not even speak against these people, who might I say were punished in such a severe way that no other nation was ever punished and this is agreed by the Abrahamic religion “ Sodom and Gomorra”

We are living in a nation that keeps changing its values, one day something is good and then the next it is bad. When good and evil evolves around their own culture and society.

Who has the right to tell me what I can and can not do? The answer for me is clear it is Allaah my creator, the only one who has the authority to legislate and has complete right to tell me what and what not to do. That is the essences of Islam, exactly that submission, submit to what? To the law of Allaah. A Muslim by definition gives up his right and says “Oh Allaah you created me and you know what’s best for me.”

In the west its, noone has the right to tell me what and what not to do, I am a free man/woman I do what I want. I decide what’s good for me and what’s bad. Western society revolves around Humanism and Hedonism, self pleasure and humanistic philosophy. This is now the modern religion in the west, so of course for them there is no concept of a higher being who has the authority to tell them what to do what not to do, so that leaves me with a dilemma, for how can I argue with someone about good and bad when they do not accept the fact that there is this being who has the right to command you. How can I justify the commands when you do not believe in the existence of the commander? The answer is simple. I can not because we are missing common grounds and with that gap being there we can not proceed. So I say to each his own.

May Allaah guide you to the right path.

~Ameen
 
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Hey, y'all. Can I have my thread back to ask about things in Islam that I am curious about?

If you're all curious about something in Islam, too, by all means ask. Not that I don't appreiciat the nature of the present discussion, but for a philosophical discussion of the points of origin and role of ethics in a pluralistic society, perhaps we need another thread. Thanks.
 
Got any other things you are curious about Grace Seeker? :D

It sounds like singing a comforting lullaby to put my baby to sleep at night would not be haraam, but if I sang that same song was accompanied by any sort of musical instrument it would be. What makes the difference?

God gave you a voice with which you can sing to your child, why do you need to ruin it with something evil? (i.e. the music?)
 
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God gave you a voice with which you can sing to your child, why do you need to ruin it with something evil? (i.e. the music?)

You haven't heard my voicep; sadly, if I sing, it sounds pretty evil too. :cry:


Malaikah, I know where you stand on this -- Muhammad (pbuh) has told you that Allah said it was bad, and that settles it. Give your personal faith, I can actually understand why that would be your view.

For me, given that God certainly was pleased with music used to worship him before the time of Muhammad, given that he actually encouraged it with musical instrumets such as flute and lyre and tamborine even, and given that I don't think the character of God itself has changed (even if I were to accept the concept that his message is now different, though Islam says that it is really the same basic message), this view of music that it is evil is one of the things that makes me doubt the validty of the Islam. It is as if it is a witness against itself.

I was hoping to hear that it was something that came out of the culture and therefore I could understand the origin of the prohibition, but to think that God himself would see it as evil now when it was something used for the very praise and worship of God before, for muy way f thinking, casts a shadow of doubt on the credibility of those (most notably the companions who have been cited) who testify against it.


Got any other things you are curious about Grace Seeker? :D
Yeah. And I'm sorry the above sounds so negative. That wasn't actually my intent, though I guess it is reflective of my feelings at the moment.

I do have other things I am curious about, got a couple of more questions regarding the concept of drawing we were talking about earlier and other stuff pops up on these threads all the time. The good news, I am learning. Sometimes I understand more. Sometimes I end up being better informed, but understanding less -- I think that is what happened with regard to the issue of music. Anyway, I want to give this thread a chance to calm down for a couple of days to make sure that those who want to continue the music discussion have had their chance to post before I move on to something different. Thanks for caring enough (that's not just Malaikah, but all of you who have taken the time to better inform me) to help learn.

:sl:
 
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For me, given that God certainly was pleased with music used to worship him before the time of Muhammad, given that he actually encouraged it with musical instrumets such as flute and lyre and tamborine even, and given that I don't think the character of God itself has changed (even if I were to accept the concept that his message is now different, though Islam says that it is really the same basic message), this view of music that it is evil is one of the things that makes me doubt the validty of the Islam. It is as if it is a witness against itself.

Not at all. Different times, different people, different measures. Music may well have been something good for people of other times, but that doesn't mean it has to be something good in our times. (That is, assuming it was even permissible at all).

Example, 3000 years ago, people didn't have the means to create an entire music industry like the one we have today. Perhaps, then, music was permissible for them because it was unlikely to lead to great evils, whereas for us it is impermissible due to the ease with which it can be (and has been) abused?

That is just an example of course to illustrate what I mean, by no means is it actually the real reason. But it shows that with something, you just need to have faith in God that He knows what is best for us even if we do not know it ourselves.

Another example, I don't know if this belief is held by Christians, but it is by Muslims, how did Adams kids get married? They married their brothers and sisters didn't they? Incest! We both know that this is totally not allowed in both our religions, but clearly God allowed it once a upon time. Different times call for different measures. :thumbs_up
 
You haven't heard my voicep; sadly, if I sing, it sounds pretty evil too. :cry:


Malaikah, I know where you stand on this -- Muhammad (pbuh) has told you that Allah said it was bad, and that settles it. Give your personal faith, I can actually understand why that would be your view.

For me, given that God certainly was pleased with music used to worship him before the time of Muhammad, given that he actually encouraged it with musical instrumets such as flute and lyre and tamborine even, and given that I don't think the character of God itself has changed (even if I were to accept the concept that his message is now different, though Islam says that it is really the same basic message), this view of music that it is evil is one of the things that makes me doubt the validty of the Islam. It is as if it is a witness against itself.
I was hoping to hear that it was something that came out of the culture and therefore I could understand the origin of the prohibition, but to think that God himself would see it as evil now when it was something used for the very praise and worship of God before, for muy way f thinking, casts a shadow of doubt on the credibility of those (most notably the companions who have been cited) who testify against it.


Yeah. And I'm sorry the above sounds so negative. That wasn't actually my intent, though I guess it is reflective of my feelings at the moment.

I do have other things I am curious about, got a couple of more questions regarding the concept of drawing we were talking about earlier and other stuff pops up on these threads all the time. The good news, I am learning. Sometimes I understand more. Sometimes I end up being better informed, but understanding less -- I think that is what happened with regard to the issue of music. Anyway, I want to give this thread a chance to calm down for a couple of days to make sure that those who want to continue the music discussion have had their chance to post before I move on to something different. Thanks for caring enough (that's not just Malaikah, but all of you who have taken the time to better inform me) to help learn.

:sl:

Greetings of Peace Brother Gene,

forgive me for asking about this remark as i do realize that it IS your thread...

BUT, has God's Character changed that He needed a NEW covenant?? ie, Christianity.
has God's Character changed in doing away with the Temple at Jerusalem?
has God's Character changed in changing, according to some Christians, the Sabbath from sunset Friday to sunset Saturday to all day Sunday?
has God's Character changed when Christians themselves changed said Sabbath?
has God's Character changed when "doing away" with circumcision?
has God's Character changed in, according to some Christians, doing away with dietary laws?
has God's Character changed in, according to most Chrisitans, doing away with polygamy?
has God's Character changed in initiating Baptism?
has God's Character changed in "doing way with" the ancient Israeli Holy Days?
has God's Character changed in that now He prefers Pagan holidays to those Holy Days?
has God's Character changed in doing away with animal sacrifice?

Christiany can "change" ALL THAT and still remain viable, but some Muslims claim, and i'm not yet convinced it's correct, that music is Haram and THAT makes you feel that Islam is not valid?

really???

just wondering?

by that way, it's been a fascinating discussion 'tween you and Malaikah!
props to Malaikah!!

:w:

Yusuf
 

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