Question For The Non-muslims

[جوري]

Greetings,


I can't, and never claimed that I could.

Of course, and there's a lot more besides charm that is lost in translation when it comes to poetry. In fact, one definition of poetry is 'that which is lost in translation'.

But I question your underlying assumption that it is only through Arabic that one can see the Qur'an as being the word of god. There are many Muslims who cannot read or speak Arabic, yet they still believe the Qur'an is the word of god.

Indeed that is true!Thomas Aberocrombie. ... Yvonne Riddley ... Dr. Gary Miller and many others... the secret is an open heart and more abstract multi-dimensional thinking!

Also, it doesn't matter how good the poetry of the Qur'an is; I find its content abhorrent and irrational in several areas, and even knowing Arabic wouldn't change this.

Like what? pls enlighten us! Do you find it as abhorrent as Saint Saens admitting that he is a pedophile loving the molestation of little north African boys?.. yet having his work celebrated and highly regarded nonetheless for its incandescence .. I hazard say even by people such as your person? What is so detestable in Suite algerienne........

I find it almost impossible to understand how a human being could write as well as Shakespeare did, but I'm not about to claim that he must have been divinely inspired for that reason..

Shakespeare didn't write anything remotely close to the Quran even given the phenomenal stretch of time between both works!...... a mid summer night's dream can hardly be compared to Suret Al Kahf (18) for example... knowing of events that transpired in other parts of the world in different periods of history can either be made up-- or sent by a divine being... accuracy of the happening is the decider of its divinity! furthermore Shakespeare wasn't an illiterate when he came up with his work... even more amazing than the two... is the fact that the very well educated Shakespeare didn't know that the bee was a female I refer you to his play Henry the Fourth. a Known fact to Muslims some centuries prior on the hands of an illiterate prophet....one of too many coincidental correct findings that make very profound the noble Quran. "In the 16th chapter (Surah an-Nahl 16:68-69) the Qur'an mentions that the female bee leaves its home to gather food. Now, a person might guess on that, saying, "The bee that you see flying around - it could be male, or it could be female. I think I will guess female." Certainly, he has a one in two chance of being right. So it happens that the Qur'an is right. But it also happens that that was not what most people believed at the time when the Qur'an was revealed. Can you tell the difference between a male and a female bee? Well, it takes a specialist to do that, but it has been discovered that the male bee never leaves his home to gather food. However, in Shakespeare's play, Henry the Fourth, some of the characters discuss bees and mention that the bees are soldiers and have a king. That is what people thought in Shakespeare's time --that the bees that one sees flying around are male bees and that they go home and answer to a king. However, that is not true at all. The fact is that they are females, and they answer to a queen. Yet it took modern scientific investigations in the last 300 years to discover that this is the case" ......

one of many many many examples proving the divinity and excellence in the QUran that isn't found in some other "profound" works of literature!

Is it possible that the Qur'an is so highly regarded in Arab countries because of the apparent widespread ignorance of other cultures and literatures that obtains there? This article quotes some figures which I've seen questioned in some quarters, but if they are accurate, they would partly explain the belief in Arab countries that the Qur'an is so well written it must have been the work of god...

You have lived in Arabic countries and ran a random double blinded study on the widespread ignorance? or exactly which source do you rely on when speaking with such authority about Arabs' familiarity or ignorance of other worldly literature? oh yes I forget (this article)

That's the way I see it, at any rate, and this is another section of reasons why I'm not a Muslim.

Peace

That is right ... that is the way you see it... and that certainly doesn't loan your argument credence.

peace to you as well!:-\

 

[cali dude]

Ahlan Brother
yes

Where did you copy that quote from because I didn't post that ?

 

[KAding]

You have lived in Arabic countries and ran a random double blinded study on the widespread ignorance? or exactly which source do you rely on when speaking with such authority about our familiarity or ignorance of other worldly literature? oh yes I forget (this article)

Actually, the article is citing one of the largest studies of its kind in the Arab world, the UN Arab Human Development Report.

It can be found here: http://hdr.undp.org/reports/detail_reports.cfm?view=712
And viewed online here: http://hdr.undp.org/docs/reports/regional/ABS_Arab/Arab_States_2003_en.pdf

The information on the translations in the Arab world can be found on page 66 to 68 of the report. Including a rather revealing bar graph on page 68.

 

[NoName55]

Where did you copy that quote from because I didn't post that ?

Ahlan Brother

It was an attempt to sort of quote the gist of that post, also make it into a general Question so none would recgonise that it was you, and seeing from many posts in here people are mostly intrested in arguing (and jump in with provocations), which I wanted avoid.

which looks as me no good at diguising
Ma'asalaama

 

[جوري]

I am sorry I don't follow.. do you not have under-educated people in the Netherlands and the U.S. and all parts of the world? Do you not have bible thumpers and religious fanatics who have no knowledge of what they are saying or repeating? Do you not have alcoholics and women who are battered? I hardly see how this is a reflection on the contents of the Quran or how the "ignorant" the Arabs of other "profound" literatures in which to compare to the Noble Quran. Let's not mix cultural stigma with religion. If anything the Quran speaks very much against ignorance and illiteracy.

وَمِنْهُمْ أُمِّيُّونَ لاَ يَعْلَمُونَ الْكِتَابَ إِلاَّ أَمَانِيَّ وَإِنْ هُمْ إِلاَّ يَظُنُّونَ {78}​

[Pickthal 2:78] Among them are unlettered folk who know the Scripture not except from hearsay. They but guess.....



It is understood that not all people have the same accolades.....also in the Quran a mention is made of they who are given knowledge being so very few....Prophet Mohammed PBUH states that we should pursue knowledge even if we have to travel as far as china. From the cradle to the grave. The current cultural climate hardly reflects religious mandates! nor does it reflect the pursuits of early Muslims who followed the book to a T. So let's not mix the two up and call it oh so "abhorrent"

There are multi facets to the Quran... and it can be appreciated by both intellectuals, and the common folk! Each soul held in pledge by its own deeds and its own understanding! More would be expected from those who know more.

I'll go one step further to say that those who don't fully appreciate the contents of the Quran or find it "abhorrent" are the ones who are under-educated and very uni-dimensional--not the other way around!

 

[AbuAbdallah]

Is it possible that the Qur'an is so highly regarded in Arab countries because of the apparent widespread ignorance of other cultures and literatures that obtains there?

Actually, the article is citing one of the largest studies of its kind in the Arab world, the UN Arab Human Development Report.

Let's not forget that the minority of Muslims are Arabs, so how do you account for the non-arab countries?

 

[justahumane]

salaam,

From my experiences with non-Muslims, most of them usually have one or two main reasons why the aren't Muslim. Surprisingly, these reasons can be misconceptions sometimes.

So my question is, what are the reason(s) that you have not accepted Islam?

Holy Quran claims its from ALLAH. Personally I m a big admirer of this book and consider it the best book available on earth. But its failure and unpractical laws stops me to believe its from ALLAH. ALLAH cant give a failed and unpractical law.

I believe that is there is any true religion of ALLAH than its followers have to be the best ppls in the world. But unfortunately muslims (Majority of) have proven that they are not anything near what ALLAH claims about them. (3:110).

These are main reasons that I m still a non muslims. Inspite of having learned about Islam and having very good view about it as a religion.

Thanks.

 

[جوري]

Holy Quran claims its from ALLAH. Personally I m a big admirer of this book and consider it the best book available on earth. But its failure and unpractical laws stops me to believe its from ALLAH. ALLAH cant give a failed and unpractical law.

I believe that is there is any true religion of ALLAH than its followers have to be the best ppls in the world. But unfortunately muslims (Majority of) have proven that they are not anything near what ALLAH claims about them. (3:110).

These are main reasons that I m still a non muslims. Inspite of having learned about Islam and having very good view about it as a religion.

Thanks.

Allah has not failed-- people have failed him!

 

[justahumane]

Allah has not failed-- people have failed him!

ALLAH can never fail, here I stand with U.

The thing is book which claims from ALLAH has failed inspite of its noble contents. U claim that ppls failed it. Well I doubt that ppls can fail book of ALLAH, here I differ with U.

Thanks.

 

[queenmuslimah]

hello......u kno muslims are human beings....and sure there are some that have done some bad things....but not all of them are the same.......people think that cause one muslim person did something terrible that the rest of them are like that one specific person.....when allah talks about the rightous people in the holy quran he is talkin about those that are good and dont disobey allah......and those who do disobey are among the people of either munafiqs(Hypocrites) or the disbelievers or they just decide to not care........the ones in the quran are the ones that are trying to spread the word the right way...and that allah(swa) loves and i ask allah to make us among them.............did u ever heard the saying 'dont judge by its cover' cause if u did than u wouldnt be judgin islam by people........majority of all mankind are will be in hell.....only few will be in paradise.........like i said before the rightous people mention in the quran are the few in paradise.....and if u want to be among these people u have tp work hard for it....cause the shaytan promised allah that he will mislead mankind cept few and i ask allah to make us the few...inshallah

 

[queenmuslimah]

" dont judge a book by its cover"

 

[- Qatada -]

ALLAH can never fail, here I stand with U.

The thing is book which claims from ALLAH has failed inspite of its noble contents. U claim that ppls failed it. Well I doubt that ppls can fail book of ALLAH, here I differ with U.

Thanks.

I can assure you as a muslim, that there are many muslims in the world who have turned their back on the book of Allaah. That is the reason for our loss and humiliation.


The Messenger of Allaah (peace be upon him) said that Allaah will send upon you calamities, his wife Aa'isha (may Allaah be pleased with her) asked - even if their are good people among them? He said yes, if evil becomes widespread.

That's why you see that the enjoining of good and forbidding evil is important in islaam, if this stops - evil becomes widespread, so Allaah sends upon us calamities so we may turn back to Him in our state of weakness. Which is what you see in the world today. Then with patience and perseverance will we see the victory insha'Allaah (God willing.) The same way of the muslims before us.



Regards.

 

[justahumane]

hello......u kno muslims are human beings....and sure there are some that have done some bad things....but not all of them are the same.......people think that cause one muslim person did something terrible that the rest of them are like that one specific person.....when allah talks about the rightous people in the holy quran he is talkin about those that are good and dont disobey allah......and those who do disobey are among the people of either munafiqs(Hypocrites) or the disbelievers or they just decide to not care........the ones in the quran are the ones that are trying to spread the word the right way...and that allah(swa) loves and i ask allah to make us among them.............did u ever heard the saying 'dont judge by its cover' cause if u did than u wouldnt be judgin islam by people........majority of all mankind are will be in hell.....only few will be in paradise.........like i said before the rightous people mention in the quran are the few in paradise.....and if u want to be among these people u have tp work hard for it....cause the shaytan promised allah that he will mislead mankind cept few and i ask allah to make us the few...inshallah

I agree that there are very few who have done the bad things among muslims. But I m not talking about that. U know urself sister that very few among muslims really honour the commands of ALLAH. All muslims nations today are live testimony of this. Muslims today prefer to make their own laws inspite of obeying laws of ALLAH. This is the worst thing muslims can do and its no secret that majority of muslims today are involved in this sin. I m very much of ur views that those so called muslims are either disbeliever like me or munafiqeen. But many in this board differ with this.

And I m not judging Islam by behaviour of muslims alone, I have already made it clear that I too believe that Islam is theoritically the best religion among others. What I believe that its not the only true religion as claimed. I dont think any religion is ALLAH's own religion except humanity, and thats the only religion I believe in. I have firm-like-anyone-else-in-the-world belief in one ALLAH, if I land in hell due to my belief than I have no complains.

May ALLAH show us all the right path. AMEEN.

Thanks.

 

[جوري]

ALLAH can never fail, here I stand with U.

The thing is book which claims from ALLAH has failed inspite of its noble contents. U claim that ppls failed it. Well I doubt that ppls can fail book of ALLAH, here I differ with U.

Thanks.

We are getting too philosophical here for my taste!
I can't build an argument on what you conceive to be true or untrue in your mind.
I don't know where you are getting your input or the views that have shaped you.
I believe as Allah said in his book.....

وَيَهْدِي مَن يَشَاء وَمَا يَعْلَمُ جُنُودَ رَبِّكَ إِلَّا هُوَ وَمَا هِيَ إِلَّا ذِكْرَى لِلْبَشَرِ {31}[Pickthal 74:31]​

None knoweth the hosts of thy Lord save Him. This is naught else than a Reminder unto mortals.

I really don't think in the scheme of things it matters if we are 2 billion or 10... Only G-D knows whom his true believers are in this world and that is all that matters. Attainment of eternal bliss isn't a class project or a community pursuit.. It is a solo journey between one and the creator.

كُلُّ نَفْسٍ بِمَا كَسَبَتْ رَهِينَةٌ {38}​

[Pickthal 74:38] Every soul is a pledge for its own deeds;

And it is true... it is nature of Man-kind and He who created us knows of our nature... and I see it in this verse ever more so

بَلْ يُرِيدُ كُلُّ امْرِئٍ مِّنْهُمْ أَن يُؤْتَى صُحُفًا مُّنَشَّرَةً {52}[Pickthal 74:52]​

Nay, but everyone of them desireth that he should be given scrolls (of revelation) spread out![/SIZE][/B][/FONT]

 

[AbuAbdallah]

Holy Quran claims its from ALLAH. Personally I m a big admirer of this book and consider it the best book available on earth. But its failure and unpractical laws stops me to believe its from ALLAH. ALLAH cant give a failed and unpractical law.

Some examples please...

 

[czgibson]

Greetings,

Indeed that is true!Thomas Aberocrombie. ... Yvonne Riddley ... Dr. Gary Miller and many others... the secret is an open heart and more abstract multi-dimensional thinking!

Why is accepting Islam indicative of "more abstract multi-dimensional thinking"?

Like what? pls enlighten us!

I think I've spent quite a lot of time on the forum trying to explain what aspects of the Qur'an don't appeal to me.

Do you find it as abhorrent as Saint Saens admitting that he is a pedophile loving the molestation of little north African boys?.. yet having his work celebrated and highly regarded nonetheless for its incandescence .. I hazard say even by people such as your person? What is so detestable in Suite algerienne........

No, I'm not a fan of Saint-Saens, and yes I do find it abhorrent. What is the relevance of this little diversion?

Shakespeare didn't write anything remotely close to the Quran even given the phenomenal stretch of time between both works!...... a mid summer night's dream can hardly be compared to Suret Al Kahf (18) for example...

No, it can't. A Midsummer Night's Dream is far from being Shakespeare's best play, but any opinions we'd like to put forward about its quality vis a vis the Qur'an would be subjective anyway.

knowing of events that transpired in other parts of the world in different periods of history can either be made up-- or sent by a divine being...

Or they could just be coincidence.

furthermore Shakespeare wasn't an illiterate when he came up with his work...

I don't claim to know who the author of the Qur'an was - why do you automatically assume I think it's Muhammad (pbuh)?

even more amazing than the two... is the fact that the very well educated Shakespeare didn't know that the bee was a female I refer you to his play Henry the Fourth. a Known fact to Muslims some centuries prior on the hands of an illiterate prophet....

Right - you're just being silly now. First off, this argument is clearly not your own. It's obviously copy-pasted or half-remembered from somewhere else. How do I know this? Well, the first thing would be this:

You haven't read Henry the Fourth. If you had, you'd know that it is in fact two plays.

One other way I know you haven't read the play is because the passage you're referring to contains these words (spoken by the king):

'Tis seldom when the bee doth leave her comb
In the dead carrion. (Henry IV Part II - IV.4.83-4)

So Shakespeare refers to the bee as being female. However, none of this makes any difference, because the truth of the matter is some bees are male and some bees are female. Why are you touting a palpable untruth as something amazingly prescient?

In other words, your argument fails so completely that it would be difficult to imagine how to make it worse.

Oh, hang on a minute. One way to make your argument worse would be if the verses you've talked about in the Qur'an don't actually say what you say they do:

"In the 16th chapter (Surah an-Nahl 16:68-69) the Qur'an mentions that the female bee leaves its home to gather food.

The Qur'an does not say in these verses that the bee is female, or leaves its house to gather food:

016.068
YUSUFALI: And thy Lord taught the Bee to build its cells in hills, on trees, and in (men's) habitations;
PICKTHAL: And thy Lord inspired the bee, saying: Choose thou habitations in the hills and in the trees and in that which they thatch;
SHAKIR: And your Lord revealed to the bee saying: Make hives in the mountains and in the trees and in what they build:

016.069
YUSUFALI: Then to eat of all the produce (of the earth), and find with skill the spacious paths of its Lord: there issues from within their bodies a drink of varying colours, wherein is healing for men: verily in this is a Sign for those who give thought.
PICKTHAL: Then eat of all fruits, and follow the ways of thy Lord, made smooth (for thee). There cometh forth from their bellies a drink divers of hues, wherein is healing for mankind. Lo! herein is indeed a portent for people who reflect.
SHAKIR: Then eat of all the fruits and walk in the ways of your Lord submissively. There comes forth from within it a beverage of many colours, in which there is healing for men; most surely there is a sign in this for a people who reflect.

Why have you misrepresented you holy book? Are these translations all inaccurate?

one of many many many examples proving the divinity and excellence in the QUran that isn't found in some other "profound" works of literature![/SIZE]

If you think that is amazing, I am genuinely concerned about your level of credulity. Hopefully the points I've made above should make it clear that your position is utterly baseless.

You have lived in Arabic countries and ran a random double blinded study on the widespread ignorance? or exactly which source do you rely on when speaking with such authority about Arabs' familiarity or ignorance of other worldly literature? oh yes I forget (this article)

Also the many Arabic students I've taught English over the years. My experience seems to be backed up by a UN report. Is it fair to say it's possible that I'm right?

That is right ... that is the way you see it... and that certainly doesn't loan your argument credence.

Perhaps. I've admitted that much of what I say is subjective. However, the points above are factual and based on textual evidence.

Peace

 

[czgibson]

Greetings,

Let's not forget that the minority of Muslims are Arabs, so how do you account for the non-arab countries?

Good point, and you're absolutely right. My point was about the reputation of the Qur'an in Arab countries. I don't claim to be able to explain its reputation among Muslims elsewhere.

Peace

 

[جوري]

Greetings,


Why is accepting Islam indicative of "more abstract multi-dimensional thinking"?.

Islam addresses the human condition. In spite of the incessant wave trying to display it in the worst possible light . Those who are not born into the religion yet choose to put aside cultural hostility to understand in full what it is all about. And revert in spite of the odds indicates to me multi-dimensionality.

I think I've spent quite a lot of time on the forum trying to explain what aspects of the Qur'an don't appeal to me..

In other words you don't want to get into a long discussion. I can respect that! But don't come complaining that we are the ones not wishing to address the topics presented!

No, I'm not a fan of Saint-Saens, and yes I do find it abhorrent. What is the relevance of this little diversion?.

I think the relevance is fairly obvious!

No, it can't. A Midsummer Night's Dream is far from being Shakespeare's best play, but any opinions we'd like to put forward about its quality vis a vis the Qur'an would be subjective anyway..

I agree ! however, you were the one who brought Shakespeare's work into this discussion!

Or they could just be coincidence..

There is no such thing as a coincidence especially when there is tons of accurate coincidences involved! it defies the laws of probability!

I

don't claim to know who the author of the Qur'an was - why do you automatically assume I think it's Muhammad (pbuh)?.

Who else could it be? and pls. Bring your proof!

Right - you're just being silly now. First off, this argument is clearly not your own. It's obviously copy-pasted or half-remembered from somewhere else. How do I know this? Well, the first thing would be this:.

This is indeed one of Dr. Gary Millers... But not half remembered!

You haven't read Henry the Fourth. If you had, you'd know that it is in fact two plays.
One other way I know you haven't read the play is because the passage you're referring to contains these words (spoken by the king):

So Shakespeare refers to the bee as being female. However, none of this makes any difference, because the truth of the matter is some bees are male and some bees are female. Why are you touting a palpable untruth as something amazingly prescient?.

I read most of Shakespeare's work in middle and high school!... I can tell however that you had to look this little pearl up also for reasons apparent to me.. one being the stretch of time it took you to reply!..... and, The "useful" bees are in fact female!

I

n other words, your argument fails so completely that it would be difficult to imagine how to make it worse..

I don't see how it does? but the next paragraph is in fact an indication on how much worst yours can be!

Oh, hang on a minute. One way to make your argument worse would be if the verses you've talked about in the Qur'an don't actually say what you say they do:
The Qur'an does not say in these verses that the bee is female, or leaves its house to gather food:

Why have you misrepresented you holy book? Are these translations all inaccurate? .

I didn't misrepresent it. Just goes to show you how presumptuous you are if not down right arrogant! So before you get that spring back in your step, let me explain; .... ... In Arabic .. You can for instance use the term "moe'mneen" to denote both faithful men and women... or you can use "mo'emnat" to denote just faithful women... generally the masculine form is used to denote both and it is what is used often in all literature. To be specific as to use the feminine form is to exclude the masculine period!.. in this particular verse G-D says to the bee أَنِ اتَّخِذِي which the feminine form --if you were addressing a male bee it would be "itakhizh" not "itakhizhi" anyone with elementary level knowledge of Arabic would have picked that up.....If that is in fact lost to you in the translation it is because your language is deficient.. not that the Quran is imperfect or that, the translators have robbed you of text. They can only work limited by vocabulary available in the English language! So NO I haven't misrepresented my holy book! but you have misrepresented yourself as a cognoscenti of "poetic" texts!

If you think that is amazing, I am genuinely concerned about your level of credulity. Hopefully the points I've made above should make it clear that your position is utterly baseless..

Actually it gives me a good laugh and an accurate assumption of how telescopic the view is from your mind!

Also the many Arabic students I've taught English over the years. My experience seems to be backed up by a UN report. Is it fair to say it's possible that I'm right?.

Possible-- also possible you just work in a low end institution? where both teacher and student are of a certain sub par standards!

Perhaps. I've admitted that much of what I say is subjective. However, the points above are factual and based on textual evidence.

And credible you are a data base as wikipedia! We have indeed seen what an accurate/factual interpretation you have of actual Quranic text!

 

[czgibson]

Greetings, Purest Ambrosia,

It's clear that you don't want to think about any of the questions I've raised, or have an intelligent discussion at all. Goodbye.

Peace

 

[جوري]

Greetings, Purest Ambrosia,

It's clear that you don't want to think about any of the questions I've raised, or have an intelligent discussion at all. Goodbye.

Peace

Ha? I have answered all you've posted.. up to and including your blatant misuse and misinterpretation of Quranic text.

Best for you to handle areas in which you are well versed! Having a strong grip on the English language doesn't cross over to have a strong grip on Arabic-- let alone Quranic text or for that matter, the politics, economics, social structure ideas and beliefs of other people. Perfect what you know... and believe what you want! But don't spew this barrage of sagacious-sounding observation and comments, of a people, culture and religion of which you clearly have no insight or knowledge!

peace to you as well!