Jesus asked, "Who do you say I am?"

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Keltoi said:
I still don't really understand what you're saying. Nothing you posted previously convinced me of the truth in the Qu'ran. The reality is that both faiths are based on the words in our Holy Books, everything else stems from that.
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Back to square one. You ever get the feeling that perhaps we both have a different criteria for what we accept as proof?

I doubt if either of us will accept the other's criteria. I know there is nothing I could say or do that would convince you to accept what I see as clear proof and the opposite is true. What you see as clear proof for your belief is invisible to me.

In reality all Power is with God(swt). What will be, will be the will of Him Inshallah.

I know I will not change my choice and that I have seen what I acknowledge to be the truth, and that is where it will stay. I really see it as being pointless and a lesson in futility to attempt to argue without everybody having the same point of reference.
 
PurestAmbrosia said:
Christianity was correct for a time and for specific people (Bani Israel).. So, you are wrong in your assumption! I don't believe the current state of Christianity to be correct! however I can't deny Jesus PBUH or the book he originally brought, or Moses before him, or Abraham before him, or David, as mandated by the Quran-- I have a bible of barnabas here in Arabic, that I can very much relate to its contents. Its message is clear... No where does he say I am G-D worship me... and There is mention of prophet Mohammed. I might simply ask you why do you not follow the OT when you can't deny its message? To which you'd answer?

You have to completely dismiss the Quran and all its contents, as the Jews do with the bible and all its contents to which you might simply shrug your shoulder at their state of denial...I can't deny the previous messages or messengers. and in fact can't understand how anyone who is read can explain the Quran as anything other than the last revelation.



peace
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Well, the "bible" of Barnabas aside, which isn't accepted as authentic by Christians, it is the New Testament that Christians look to for guidance. Just as you believe the Qu'ran is a continuation, we believe the New Testament to be a continuation. Christians do not believe Muhammed brought the last revelation because it is Jesus Christ who brought the last revelation. That is where the line is drawn, and nothing is going to change that besides God Himself.
 
:D
Woodrow said:
Back to square one. You ever get the feeling that perhaps we both have a different criteria for what we accept as proof?

I doubt if either of us will accept the other's criteria. I know there is nothing I could say or do that would convince you to accept what I see as clear proof and the opposite is true. What you see as clear proof for your belief is invisible to me.

In reality all Power is with God(swt). What will be, will be the will of Him Inshallah.

I know I will not change my choice and that I have seen what I acknowledge to be the truth, and that is where it will stay. I really see it as being pointless and a lesson in futility to attempt to argue without everybody having the same point of reference.
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I agree. This really is a circular argument. I respect your views and the sincerity of your faith as I hope you do mine. It seems like we must all go through this old song and dance occasionally, with the end result being the same. Nothing has changed. :D
 
Keltoi said:
Well, the "bible" of Barnabas aside, which isn't accepted as authentic by Christians, it is the New Testament that Christians look to for guidance. Just as you believe the Qu'ran is a continuation, we believe the New Testament to be a continuation. Christians do not believe Muhammed brought the last revelation because it is Jesus Christ who brought the last revelation. That is where the line is drawn, and nothing is going to change that besides God Himself.
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lol.. one would wonder what you deem authentic or not with the tons of versions you have--Even other bibles In Arabic are nothing like the one you hold (but that aside). ... I guess what you are saying is the same as a Moses brought the "ONLY" first and last testament as per Tanakh and nothing is going to change that... I am now convinced...
thanks
 
My question would be does anyone notice any difference in the gospels in the answer given by the disciple to this question?
 
PurestAmbrosia said:
lol.. one would wonder what you deem authentic or not with the tons of versions you have--Even other bibles In Arabic are nothing like the one you hold (but that aside). ... I guess what you are saying is the same as a Moses brought the "ONLY" first and last testament as per Tanakh and nothing is going to change that... I am now convinced...
thanks
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The first of your post has been addressed in numerous posts, so I don't see any reason to fall into that argument here.

I'm not sure what you're trying to say in the last of the post. Christians believe that Jesus Christ was the final Messenger of God, bringing the way to salvation for all mankind. If that is what you were trying to suggest, then you are correct, that is our belief.
 
Keltoi said:
The first of your post has been addressed in numerous posts, so I don't see any reason to fall into that argument here.

I'm not sure what you're trying to say in the last of the post. Christians believe that Jesus Christ was the final Messenger of God, bringing the way to salvation for all mankind. If that is what you were trying to suggest, then you are correct, that is our belief.
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I notice you are not sure of what alot of people are trying to say! Why are you so confused? Are you from bani ISrael?
'I have not been sent except to the lost sheep of the House of Israel.' (Matthew 15:24)[1] Hence every one of the famous twelve disciples of Jesus was an Israelite Jew. The one biblical passage where Jesus is supposed to have told his disciples to 'Go and preach unto all nations, baptising them in the name of the Father, Son and Holy Ghost.' (Matthew 28:19), commonly quoted to prove the Gentile mission as well as the Trinity, is not found in any pre-sixteenth century manuscript and is thus considered 'a pious fraud'.

So we fail to see how that means a final message to all of man kind...
but if it is your belief then by all means.. but don't be telling us about our "obvious need to believe"--

peace!
 
Al Habeshi said:

Thats Matthew's Account Am Guessing?
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Matthew 16:13-17 Now when Jesus came into the parts of Caesarea Philippi, he asked his disciples, saying, Who do men say that the Son of man is?And they said, Some [say] John the Baptist; some, Elijah; and others, Jeremiah, or one of the prophets. He saith unto them, But who say ye that I am? And Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God. And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Bar-jonah: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father who is in heaven.

or

Mark 8:27-30 And Jesus went forth, and his disciples, into the villages of Caesarea Philippi: and on the way he asked his disciples, saying unto them, Who do men say that I am? And they told him, saying, John the Baptist; and others, Elijah; but others, One of the prophets. And he asked them, But who say ye that I am? Peter answereth and saith unto him, Thou art the Christ. And he charged them that they should tell no man of him. Also Luke 9:18-21 is very similar to Mark, but the discourse is not mentioned in John.

Note that Peter's answer was slightly different as was Jesus' response to his answer. Which one is an exact quote for what was said? Perhaps, Jesus' response was actually Mark 8:33 But he turning about, and seeing his disciples, rebuked Peter, and saith, Get thee behind me, Satan; for thou mindest not the things of God, but the things of men.

For that matter which Lord's prayer did he tell the disciples to pray?

Luke 11:2-4 And he said unto them, When ye pray, say, Father, Hallowed be thy name. Thy kingdom come. Give us day by day our daily bread. And forgive us our sins; for we ourselves also forgive every one that is indebted to us. And bring us not into temptation.

or

Matthew 6:9-13After this manner therefore pray ye. Our Father who art in heaven, Hallowed be thy name.Thy kingdom come. Thy will be done, as in heaven, so on earth. Give us this day our daily bread. And forgive us our debts, as we also have forgiven our debtors. And bring us not into temptation, but deliver us from the evil [one.]

This points to a dramatic difference between the Talmud, New Testament and the Quran. Only the Quran contains ver batim the words actually spoken by the messenger who revealed it. Which Gospel, first verse to the last, is the literal words spoken by Jesus? Where did the inspiration for the NT come from and when? Was it when the books were written down or was it in the 4th century when the books of the Catholic Bible were decided upon at the Council of Hippo?
 
MustafaMc said:
Perhaps you would like to quote Jesus in a few of Bibilical verses to illustrate your point.
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Muslims and Christians both have a promise, but my preference is to be a Christian. It all started with Abraham's wife Sarah and Hagar Sarah’s handmaid. Ishmael is the seed of Abraham and so is Isaac. Them dudes be brothers that worshiped the same God man. And the whole world is caught up in a family feud. Ishmael has a promise to be a powerful nation which is self-sufficient and Isaac has the seed of promise. The Christians come from the Isaac side and the Muslims come from the Ishmael side. They are both carrying God’s promise, but only one is free. One can serve God in freedom the other cannot because they are under the law. One represents the law and trying to please God with works and the other does it by faith that works through love but works are not the focus. According to the Bible, whom the Son sets free is free in deed.


Allah refers to Jesus as God in Hebrews "But thy (Jesus) throne Oh God is established forever... "Jesus was a man of course He was subordinate to His Father in Heaven, but He was no less deity. Just like as if you have a son, he would be under you but no less human. Besides, God is only one. God is a Spirit and Jesus represents His word that was made flesh. Jesus is the word of God, and the Bible says that He exalts His word above His name. The Bible is replete with Jesus saying He is the only way to God, and with the Son giving glory to the Father and the Father glorifying the Son. Anyone trying to get to heaven in any other fashion then submit to the Lordship of Jesus will not make it according to the Scriptures.
References are available upon request: Jesus said, "I am the Way, the Truth and the Life" He said, "No one comes unto the Father (Allah, God Almighty, The Lord) but by Me" Mary worshipped him on His feet. He didn't try to stop her in the way angels or any men of God would for people doing that. Jesus said, "Before Abraham was I AM" When Thomas put his hand in the wounds that put Jesus to death, he said of Jesus "My Lord and my God." Jesus didn't deny it or rebuke him for saying it. Jesus didn't explicitly say He was God because He wanted you to realize it for yourself. Philip said show us the Father and we'll be happy. Jesus said I have been with you. Don't you know me. Jesus said I am the Alpha and Omega beginning and the end. God said the same about Himself in Isaiah. He said there is no God besides me and I share not my glory with another. Jesus claims these titles unto Himself. If you have seen me you have seen the Father. Jesus said my sheep hear my voice and follow me. I can hear His voice. That is why I follow Him. The Bible is replete with Jesus being the total Spiritual Sum of All things. He said the Father Judges no one but has committed all judgment to Jesus the Son so that you will honor him the same as you honor the Father (Allah). To reduce Jesus to a mere angel or prophet is blasphemous to us followers of Christ. Jesus is named Immanuel that means GOD with us. It is written do not be like the Ox that needs a bit and bridle to see what truth is. He said, I am in the Father and the Father is in me. He is the exact representation of all that God is He is in the very nature God. What is the difference in essences if you put the bag in the cup or put the cup in the bag? It is equal in mass and weight even if the volume is different. Jesus was a man so the man part of Him was under the Father’s authority, but He was no less deity. Just like you have a son who is under you, but he is no less human than you. If one doesn’t honor Jesus as his creator, as the Bible states He is, then one does not honor God, Allah or the Lord.

If I am not mistaken, according to the Qur’an Mohammed is the messenger, but according to the Bible Jesus is the Message. The Bible states that He is our only hope of salvation. That is why I am a follower of Jesus. The Qur’an states that Jesus is a great prophet, but I don't believe it gives an accurate picture of who Jesus really is. Mohammed is also considered a great prophet. I like to compare and contrast the two. Jesus was born of a virgin that is a confirmed fact according to both the Bible and the Qur’an. Jesus according to the Qur’an is like the Bible says the Word of God. Some twist it to say He is a word just like the JW's twist their Watch tower version of the Bible to say that the word was a god. That article "a" is not a part of the deal in the orginial text. Jesus was born of a virgin not Mohammed. Jesus rose from the dead (which you don’t believe) not Mohammed. The Bible says that every tongue will confess and every knee bow that Jesus is Lord to the glory of Allah, and He is the King of Kings and Lord of Lords; He is the bright morning star, Lily of the valley, the everlasting Father, the Prince of Peace, the Alfa and Omega, the beginning and the end, there is no one like Him. He is the Lion of the tribe of Judah and the mighty God. According to the Bible, which you believe is corrupted and we don't, if we do not submit to Him in this life, the devil takes us after we die. We are free to choose as we wish, but we will not be free from the consequences of our choices. I hope this answers your questions.
 
MustafaMc said:
Matthew 16:13-17 Now when Jesus came into the parts of Caesarea Philippi, he asked his disciples, saying, Who do men say that the Son of man is?And they said, Some [say] John the Baptist; some, Elijah; and others, Jeremiah, or one of the prophets. He saith unto them, But who say ye that I am? And Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God. And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Bar-jonah: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father who is in heaven.

or

Mark 8:27-30 And Jesus went forth, and his disciples, into the villages of Caesarea Philippi: and on the way he asked his disciples, saying unto them, Who do men say that I am? And they told him, saying, John the Baptist; and others, Elijah; but others, One of the prophets. And he asked them, But who say ye that I am? Peter answereth and saith unto him, Thou art the Christ. And he charged them that they should tell no man of him. Also Luke 9:18-21 is very similar to Mark, but the discourse is not mentioned in John.

Note that Peter's answer was slightly different as was Jesus' response to his answer. Which one is an exact quote for what was said? Perhaps, Jesus' response was actually Mark 8:33 But he turning about, and seeing his disciples, rebuked Peter, and saith, Get thee behind me, Satan; for thou mindest not the things of God, but the things of men.

For that matter which Lord's prayer did he tell the disciples to pray?

Luke 11:2-4 And he said unto them, When ye pray, say, Father, Hallowed be thy name. Thy kingdom come. Give us day by day our daily bread. And forgive us our sins; for we ourselves also forgive every one that is indebted to us. And bring us not into temptation.

or

Matthew 6:9-13After this manner therefore pray ye. Our Father who art in heaven, Hallowed be thy name.Thy kingdom come. Thy will be done, as in heaven, so on earth. Give us this day our daily bread. And forgive us our debts, as we also have forgiven our debtors. And bring us not into temptation, but deliver us from the evil [one.]

This points to a dramatic difference between the Talmud, New Testament and the Quran. Only the Quran contains ver batim the words actually spoken by the messenger who revealed it. Which Gospel, first verse to the last, is the literal words spoken by Jesus? Where did the inspiration for the NT come from and when? Was it when the books were written down or was it in the 4th century when the books of the Catholic Bible were decided upon at the Council of Hippo?
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Just because Jesus said don't tell anyone doesn't mean He was denying that He was the Son of God, and Peter was rebuked because he was trying to tell Jesus he wasn't going to die for the sins of the world.
 
Al Habeshi said:
My question would be does anyone notice any difference in the gospels in the answer given by the disciple to this question?
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Maybe you can explain why you feel that difference is signficant. Then I or we can take it from there.
 
MustafaMc said:
This points to a dramatic difference between the Talmud, New Testament and the Quran. Only the Quran contains ver batim the words actually spoken by the messenger who revealed it. Which Gospel, first verse to the last, is the literal words spoken by Jesus? Where did the inspiration for the NT come from and when? Was it when the books were written down or was it in the 4th century when the books of the Catholic Bible were decided upon at the Council of Hippo?
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Greetings.

Yes they are different. Different people, even if they were eyewitnesses to an event, rarely report the event in question using identical words. If the gospels of Matthew, Mark, Luke and John were identical, the charge would be made there was only one author and all the others were copies. Christians don't believe the differences in the way the accounts were reported change the message.

The books of the Bible were written well before the councils of Hippo and Nicea. One of the criteria in the canon was that the document had had continuous acceptance and usage by the church at large. The documents selected didn't derive their authority from being selected for inclusion into the Bible, each one was authoritative before before anyone gathered them together.

"The book of Acts, written by Luke, ends when Paul was under house arrest. Paul is a central figure in Acts, but the book ends before Paul's death. That can reasonably place Acts as having been written sometime before 62 AD. Since Acts is the second of a two part work, the other part being Luke, Luke must have been written earlier than that. And since Luke incorporates parts of the gospel of Mark, Mark was most likely written even earlier...." - source Craig L. Blomberg Ph.D.

Peace
 
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don532 said:
Greetings.

Yes they are different. Different people, even if they were eyewitnesses to an event, rarely report the event in question using identical words. If the gospels of Matthew, Mark, Luke and John were identical, the charge would be made there was only one author and all the others were copies. Christians don't believe the differences in the way the accounts were reported change the message.
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Howdy don,

And what rules out the fact of changes made knowingly?
 
don532 said:
Yes they are different. Different people, even if they were eyewitnesses to an event, rarely report the event in question using identical words. If the gospels of Matthew, Mark, Luke and John were identical, the charge would be made there was only one author and all the others were copies. Christians don't believe the differences in the way the accounts were reported change the message.
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The point that you made here can be applied to our second source of religous knowledge, the hadith. The books of hadith such as Bukhari, Muslim, Tirmidhi, Abu Dawood are collections of what someone remembered the Prophet (pbuh) or his companions said or did. There are small differences between different narrators of the same situation, but they convey basically the same message. I see a strong analogy between Islamic hadith and the 4 gospels and the book of Acts of the NT. A point of difference, however, is that Muslims (to my knowledge) don't consider even strong hadith to be "inspired by God", but rather authentic narrations to show how the Prophet (pbuh) and his companions applied the Quran and the Islamic message to their lives.

Muslims claim that every word of the Quran was revealed to Prophet Muhammad through the angel Gabriel (Jibrael) and that every word has been accurately preserved without change for the past 1400 years. Note that the Quran has been preserved in the Arabic language of revelation. When I say "Qul huwa 'Allaah 'ah.ad, 'Allaah as.- s.amad, lam yalid wa- lam yolad, wa- lam yakun la- -hu kufuw(an) 'ah.ad" not only is the meaning the same as what was originally intended, but the sound is also the same.

Can Christians make the same claim about the Bible? Can Christians claim with any confidence that Jesus actually said verbatim even one verse of the NT that is attributed to him?
 
MustafaMc said:
The point that you made here can be applied to our second source of religous knowledge, the hadith. The books of hadith such as Bukhari, Muslim, Tirmidhi, Abu Dawood are collections of what someone remembered the Prophet (pbuh) or his companions said or did. There are small differences between different narrators of the same situation, but they convey basically the same message. I see a strong analogy between Islamic hadith and the 4 gospels and the book of Acts of the NT. A point of difference, however, is that Muslims (to my knowledge) don't consider even strong hadith to be "inspired by God", but rather authentic narrations to show how the Prophet (pbuh) and his companions applied the Quran and the Islamic message to their lives.

Muslims claim that every word of the Quran was revealed to Prophet Muhammad through the angel Gabriel (Jibrael) and that every word has been accurately preserved without change for the past 1400 years. Note that the Quran has been preserved in the Arabic language of revelation. When I say "Qul huwa 'Allaah 'ah.ad, 'Allaah as.- s.amad, lam yalid wa- lam yolad, wa- lam yakun la- -hu kufuw(an) 'ah.ad" not only is the meaning the same as what was originally intended, but the sound is also the same.

Can Christians make the same claim about the Bible? Can Christians claim with any confidence that Jesus actually said verbatim even one verse of the NT that is attributed to him?
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Very good the Ahadith do correlate very much to the concept of the Christian Gospel. And you are right they are the eyewitness accounts of men and not the word of God(swt) we do see them as true accounts, but they are not the word of Allah(swt) The Qur'an alone is the true word. If the Ahadith existed without the Qur'an we would not be able to say one word in it could be proven to be something Allah(swt) said. We follow and obey the Ahadith because they are eyewitness accounts as to how Muhammad(PBUH) followed the Qur'an.
 

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