al-Qaida in Iraq

[MTAFFI]

That's a lie! They have not killed more civiliians than the Americans. Come to that, their attacks account for 5 percent of the action. I should give you the same rant you gave Noble Muslim... but - blah!

http://www.fas.org/asmp/profiles/saudi_arabia.htm

http://select.nytimes.com/gst/abstr...nce/Times Topics/Subjects/A/Arms Sales Abroad

Ninth Scribe

How do you call that a lie? Take a look at the numbers, how many are dead in Iraq? How many were civilians? The US didnt kill all these civilians, so that only leaves a certain number of groups responsible.. You have a bad case of denial yourself it seems. This month alone (as of the day of my post) 85 troops dead, number of civilians killed by these militant groups was 83 that particular day. Say what you want but it is absolutely undeniable that these people kill more civilians than they do their enemy. One would think that the civilians are tired of the militants killing them and probably support the troops for at least trying to police their land.

PS Thanks for the link, I didnt see anything about Israel in there though (I just skimmed it, so feel free to correct me if I am wrong) EDIT: just saw the other link, thanks!

 

[Ninth_Scribe]

How do you call that a lie? Take a look at the numbers, how many are dead in Iraq? How many were civilians? The US didnt kill all these civilians, so that only leaves a certain number of groups responsible.. You have a bad case of denial yourself it seems. This month alone (as of the day of my post) 85 troops dead, number of civilians killed by these militant groups was 83 that particular day. Say what you want but it is absolutely undeniable that these people kill more civilians than they do their enemy. One would think that the civilians are tired of the militants killing them and probably support the troops for at least trying to police their land.

PS Thanks for the link, I didnt see anything about Israel in there though (I just skimmed it, so feel free to correct me if I am wrong) EDIT: just saw the other link, thanks!

It's the second link. I added a bunch, not that any of this matters. Bottom line is, the Iraqis don't like the occupation an they'll fight it... even if that means: The enemy of my enemy is my friend.

You just run those numb3rs... I know people can do this. It's just math. I gave you every link you need, but take your time and read the words like someone who is interested in what they have to say. That's why all this is happening, by the way. Because Iraqis are talking.. but no one seems to be listening.

Ninth Scribe

 

[MTAFFI]

It's the second link. I added a bunch, not that any of this matters. Bottom line is, the Iraqis don't like the occupation an they'll fight it... even if that means: The enemy of my enemy is my friend.

You just run those numb3rs... I know people can do this. It's just math. I gave you every link you need, but take your time and read the words like someone who is interested in what they have to say. That's why all this is happening, by the way. Because Iraqis are talking.. but no one seems to be listening.

Ninth Scribe

So are you saying that the US has killed more civilians in Iraq than these other groups or not? I can answer it for you but I would like it better if you posted it yourself.. When the US does leave Iraq, and the time is coming, these people will fight and kill many many many more civilians and Iraq will be under the control of another tyrant. Would you rather the US leave and allow this or stay and at least try to stop it?

 

[Keltoi]

Many Sunni "resistance" groups have already aided the U.S. a number of times with the locations of these foreign Al-Qaeda types, so it would seem the "invitation" Ninth-Scribe eluded to is wearing thin. It wouldn't surprise me if it was the Sunnis who gave up the location of Zarqawi to the U.S. Granted, most of this "aid" isn't coming from the kindness of their hearts or their aversion to killing women and children in the street, but as a method to gain power in their own region of Iraq.

 

[Islamic_warrior]

Iraqis fight as they fight, does it disgust anyone or does not - doesn't really matter for people on the ground.

Countries don't get invaded everyday, when it happens - people react, iraqis reacted the way they do, I expected the resistance. Let's not generalize, there are iraqis who target invaders and avoid civil casualties, if I were iraqi and had the guts and the opportunity I would've made it my duty to kill as many invaders as I can avoiding civil casualties(why would i want to kill my brother anyway?).

Do you expect that anyone on this forum will say that they condone muslims killing muslims? Or do you expect that someone would say that iraqis fighting invaders are wrong and should stop?

I heard Americans intentionally go to dangerous towns and give out candy to kids so they can become human sheild for them...

 

[Keltoi]

I heard Americans intentionally go to dangerous towns and give out candy to kids so they can become human sheild for them...

Yeah, that makes sense...:rollseyes

 

[MTAFFI]

I heard Americans intentionally go to dangerous towns and give out candy to kids so they can become human sheild for them...

You have to be joking...LOL This whole site has lost reputation because of that comment..LMAO....LOL

 

[Cognescenti]

I heard Americans intentionally go to dangerous towns and give out candy to kids so they can become human sheild for them...

This is a gag, right? It has to be. Nobody could possibly believe this.....could they? :?

Please tell us you are really a teenager from Des Moines doing this as a prank...right?

 

[Ninth_Scribe]

It wouldn't surprise me if it was the Sunnis who gave up the location of Zarqawi to the U.S. Granted, most of this "aid" isn't coming from the kindness of their hearts or their aversion to killing women and children in the street, but as a method to gain power in their own region of Iraq.

Most of the "aid" isn't coming from the kindness of America's heart either. You should just read all those sales sheets. Do the math. Man... am I in the wrong business. But the door swings both ways. Sorry. I can't believe you just advocated torture, but I suppose the intel justified the means? Whatever. It changed nadda. The war is on, and it will continue to be so since the only thing both sides agree on is the sick reality that war is the only way to resolve this problem. No, I can't blame Iraqis for fighting an invasion and yes, I fully condone their use of foreign armies... as does the U.S. (Canada, U.K., etc.).

Judging from all I've learned here, this discussion is a waste of time.

Ninth Scribe

 

[MTAFFI]

Most of the "aid" isn't coming from the kindness of America's heart either. You should just read all those sales sheets. Do the math. Man... am I in the wrong business. But the door swings both ways. Sorry. I can't believe you just advocated torture, but I suppose the intel justified the means? Whatever. It changed nadda. The war is on, and it will continue to be so since the only thing both sides agree on is the sick reality that war is the only way to resolve this problem. No, I can't blame Iraqis for fighting an invasion and yes, I fully condone their use of foreign armies... as does the U.S. (Canada, U.K., etc.).

Judging from all I've learned here, this discussion is a waste of time.

Ninth Scribe

Is it? It seems you want to derail the discussion because you dont like the sad reality of it. You have now said you condone the us of foreign armies, here is my next question to you, who in Iraq asked for them? Surely not the people they are killing by almost the hundreds everyday. As I said in my first post and my last post to you, who is right and who is wrong? The "freedom fighters" that you love so much kill as many innocents a day as they kill their "enemy" every month. The US forces are rarely seen killing innocents everyday, who is the real enemy to Iraq? Who is the real reason that the country is in the state that it is in? I am asking for straight answers, dont beat around the BUSH and tell me a bunch of nonsense, just answer those questions straight up.

 

[NobleMuslimUK]

Is it? It seems you want to derail the discussion because you dont like the sad reality of it. You have now said you condone the us of foreign armies, here is my next question to you, who in Iraq asked for them? Surely not the people they are killing by almost the hundreds everyday. As I said in my first post and my last post to you, who is right and who is wrong? The "freedom fighters" that you love so much kill as many innocents a day as they kill their "enemy" every month. The US forces are rarely seen killing innocents everyday, who is the real enemy to Iraq? Who is the real reason that the country is in the state that it is in? I am asking for straight answers, dont beat around the BUSH and tell me a bunch of nonsense, just answer those questions straight up.

Your answers are simple its the people in charge of America that are responsible, they are the enemy to you and the whole world, their only friend is money.
Why was Iraq invaded well the list is endless, but you can be certain the things not to be included in that list are WMD, or liberating Iraqis.
The regime in US has the blood of many on their hands, but it will not be long before the nausea of living in a artificially controlled environment hits home in the western world. This is leading to just as worse in the western world as it is in the middle east.

May Allah SWT give patience and victory to all the muslims over their opressors. Ameen

 

[MTAFFI]

Your answers are simple its the people in charge of America that are responsible, they are the enemy to you and the whole world, their only friend is money.
Why was Iraq invaded well the list is endless, but you can be certain the things not to be included in that list are WMD, or liberating Iraqis.
The regime in US has the blood of many on their hands, but it will not be long before the nausea of living in a artificially controlled environment hits home in the western world. This is leading to just as worse in the western world as it is in the middle east.

May Allah SWT give patience and victory to all the muslims over their opressors. Ameen

so to you the enemies are the US forces in Iraq that are trying to stabilize and not the ones who are killing all of the civilians and creating anarchy? Why would Allah grant victory to these people, they are not protecting or serving, they are killing and punishing the Iraqis, not the US, how can you not see this? By the way you only answered 1 question

 

[Muezzin]

Why does it matter who claims it? That's a remarkable question.

The call to jihad we see is not a function of these killers being “made" by U.S. foreign policy, their hatres of Jews or any others’ foreign policy. They are in fact, mobilized by it when it doesn’t yield to their arrogant claims of entitlement.

The names they operate under are subordinate to the cause of their ideology: Islamic Jihad, Harakat al-Muqawamah al-Islamiyyah (Hamas), Abu Sayyaf, Tanzim Qa'idat Al-Jihad in Bilad al-Rafidayn (al-Qaeda in Iraq), Hizbullah, Al-Ikhwan Al-Moslemoon (the Muslim Brotherhood), and countless others.

Jihad is a fundamental component of orthodox Islamic doctrine, and it always has been.

What more evidence do you need that this is the way of the world before we went into Iraq? If 9/11 doesn't convince people like you that life and liberty are not the primary concern of these murderous Islamic ideologues, then nothing will. Maybe a 737 plowing into another mega building on a pastoral September day will make you realize how deeply and just-as-likely a victim you are as anyone else.

Are you saying such people twist Islamic doctrine or are you saying Islamic doctrine itself is to blame?

 

[Idris]

so to you the enemies are the US forces in Iraq that are trying to stabilize and not the ones who are killing all of the civilians and creating anarchy? Why would Allah grant victory to these people, they are not protecting or serving, they are killing and punishing the Iraqis, not the US, how can you not see this? By the way you only answered 1 question

We have to use some brain cell’s here. What happens if you take down a government?
Something called a power vacuum, where people try and get as much power as they can.
They US destroyed a government that had a police force, army and the economy of Iraq.
They made a nice green zone for the US and ally’s …..the other Iraqis well they have to fight for themselves. So then you take out the structure of a country you get anarchy.

You remember what happened in Hurricane Katrina? :?

 

[Ninth_Scribe]

So are you saying that the US has killed more civilians in Iraq than these other groups or not? I can answer it for you but I would like it better if you posted it yourself.. When the US does leave Iraq, and the time is coming, these people will fight and kill many many many more civilians and Iraq will be under the control of another tyrant. Would you rather the US leave and allow this or stay and at least try to stop it?

The Numb3rs themselves aren't at issue here. One day the U.S. will lead the body count and a month later the Mujahideen will take the lead. It can change, so it's pointless to follow the body count. It's about how the agression is justified.

Don't be too worried about what will happen after the U.S. leaves. This isn't the first time someone opened the gates to Baghdad... and there are ways to reconcile the family. But the government that has been appointed is obviously not acceptable, if for any other reason, to accept it, is an admission of Iraq's defeat by America. These are proud and honorable men and they will not be so easily disgraced. America is not the one to stop what it was the one to start. It only adds insult to injury.

And, I don't agree with Al Qaeda in all ways. In fact, I've completed a very detailed study of Kaab al-Ahbar that I intend to use to demonstrate how much I disapprove of these conversions by sword (their plan is to convert the world in 100 years time). If you want, I'll PM you that page. It is a check-mate.

Words are my best weapon

The Ninth Scribe

 

[Ninth_Scribe]

You remember what happened in Hurricane Katrina? :?

Yes. Americans killing Americans. The condition turned men against what they perceived to be their weaker links.

The Ninth Scribe

 

[Ninth_Scribe]

Is it? It seems you want to derail the discussion because you dont like the sad reality of it. You have now said you condone the us of foreign armies, here is my next question to you, who in Iraq asked for them? Surely not the people they are killing by almost the hundreds everyday. As I said in my first post and my last post to you, who is right and who is wrong? The "freedom fighters" that you love so much kill as many innocents a day as they kill their "enemy" every month. The US forces are rarely seen killing innocents everyday, who is the real enemy to Iraq? Who is the real reason that the country is in the state that it is in? I am asking for straight answers, dont beat around the BUSH and tell me a bunch of nonsense, just answer those questions straight up.

I'm not trying to derail your discussion. I'm just saying there is very little I can add that hasn't been covered already. You have yet to produce a presentation of facts that will change my view and I obviously cannot produce a presentation that you would find acceptable. So I judge the matter pointless. When I judge a matter... it is a personal judgment that only concerns my path. Not yours. The judgment is that I need to stop this and go back to the drawing board (for the thousenth time) and produce another presentation!

I can answer the question you asked: Who invited the foreign fighters? The Iraqis did. Zarqawi answered the call from Ansar al Sunnah. Now there is collective, the Islamic State of Iraq - of which one military wing is Zarqawi's Al Qaeda in Iraq. In other words, Al Qaeda in Iraq does not run the state. They merely defend it.

The Ninth Scribe

 

[Keltoi]

I'm not trying to derail your discussion. I'm just saying there is very little I can add that hasn't been covered already. You have yet to produce a presentation of facts that will change my view and I obviously cannot produce a presentation that you would find acceptable. So I judge the matter pointless. When I judge a matter... it is a personal judgment that only concerns my path. Not yours. The judgment is that I need to stop this and go back to the drawing board (for the thousenth time) and produce another presentation!

I can answer the question you asked: Who invited the foreign fighters? The Iraqis did. Zarqawi answered the call from Ansar al Sunnah. Now there is collective, the Islamic State of Iraq - of which one military wing is Zarqawi's Al Qaeda in Iraq. In other words, Al Qaeda in Iraq does not run the state. They merely defend it.

The Ninth Scribe

Then you have to deal with the fact that there is no "Islamic State of Iraq", only the suggestion of such a thing. Zarqawi is dead. The Sunni insurgency has become almost exclusively devoted to killing Shia, and vice versa.

 

[Ninth_Scribe]

Do you not understand that the most prolific killers of Moslems are other Moslems? The tribal warfare and tit for tat killings are further exasperated by the centuries old feud that divides the sunnni and shia.

They didn't fight each other until AFTER the U.S. invaded and Divisions are like branches on the same tree... its all a question of proper names and places. Ye of little faith. The Bush Administrations makes excuses for itself, but the result will not change.

Just who is it that Al Qaeda is defending Iraq from; other Iraqi’s? <-- That’s a rhetorical question!

Certain of the Iraqis see it that way and they don't care for the Bush administration's excuses and justifications. Since the Bush administration has decreed that a contest of war will decide the new government... so be it.

Thus far, all I've heard is Americans accuse others of being guilty of the same crimes it has commited. From wedding parties to children to civilians to sectarian preferences to outside interference. I can still hear the whining: "Well, Al Qaeda used chlorine bombs and made people sick. - as if this is any different from America's use of White Phosphorous in Falluja? Spare me the complaints. It takes two (2) to make a war and for every American who thinks like you, there is a Arab who doesn't.

You might want to run those numbers a bit more carefully. Both sides can insure this contest will last for generations.

The Ninth Scribe

 

[Ninth_Scribe]

Then you have to deal with the fact that there is no "Islamic State of Iraq", only the suggestion of such a thing. Zarqawi is dead. The Sunni insurgency has become almost exclusively devoted to killing Shia, and vice versa.

Hmm... so the 99 U.S. soldiers who died this month are the result of a... suggestion? Wow!
Can't wait to see what happens when they become a... statement.

The Ninth Scribe