Sunnah and Hadith a corruption of Islam?

[Spartan]

Can anyone please tell me your thoughts on this: Why were the Sunnah and Hadith created in the first place? Why did scholars find it necessary to write up to 50 volumes of Hadith to help us understand a single book of God's work? It just doesn't make sense to me. Bear in mind I am a non-muslim however I have read through the Quran in Engligh so perhaps there are some Arabic words that cannot be described by the English language but anyway here goes:

God told the believers that His book, the Quran is a complete and fully detailed text (6:19,114, & 12:111)

God only needed the Quran to spread his message he did not need other books or messages otherwise they would have been given to Mohammed to dictate. He does not run out of words or information. See 18:109 and 31:27.

Other quotes from the Quran on Hadith:

"These are God's revelations (Quran) that we recite to you truthfully. In which HADITH other than God and His revelations do they believe?" 45:6

"Then in what statement after it(Quran) will they believe?"77:50

"Let them produce a Hadith like this ( I.e Quran) if they are truthful." 52:34

"Therefore, let Me deal with those who reject this Hadith(Quran); we will lead them on whence they never perceive." 68:44

I understand that it is important to obey the prophets words as they are gods words as dictated to him but there are numerous surah which state that it is the ONLY message of Muhammed.

4:105, 18:27 tells me that the only message of Muhammed is God's message as dictated to him.


When the prophet Muhammed died, he left behind only ONE book, the Quran. The only book that the prophet Muhammed followed was the Quran.

In addition I read on Ibn Saeed Al-Khudry and it is reported that Muhammed said: "Do not write anything from me other than the Quran. Anything else shall be destroyed."

There are numerous others who say pretty much the same thing: Zayd Ibn Thabit, Ibn Al-Salah, Abu Hurayra, Ibn Hanbal are some of them.



Is it not true that Muhammed without the Quran is just another human being like us and isn't obeying the messenger on the condition that he must have a message? (i.e the Quran). Producing Hadith and Sunnah in my opinion is the same as elevating Muhammed to the status of a messiah or God. It is like classifying the messenger is an independent power to be obeyed apart from God. Did Muhammad the messenger not pronounce and act outside the Quran? It is only too obvious that he did and must have done so. After all he was human, and if he were human why is it we must find a reason to follow HIM as opposed to his message? "Say, (O Muhammed) "I am no more than a human being like you...." 18:110

For example if a researcher finds that alchohol produces a deadly cancer yet because he is fond of a particular drink (wine lets say) he still consumes a little of it every night. Does that give people who are health conscious an excuse to have a little every night just because the researcher is having it? It is the same thing with the messenger and Islam.


From what I have been told `hadith' is used in the Quran to mean `news', `story', `message' or `thing'. Out of the 36 times it is used in various grammatical forms, none refers to what is known as the "Prophetic" hadith (i.e Hadith created by the Prophet or by other people on behalf of the Prophet) as another source of law beside the Quran. In fact, in 10 different statements the word refers to the Quran and categorically rejects any hadith besides the Quran.

This is not to say that the creators of the hadith were conspirators or fabricators. However I'm sure everyone has heard of the game "chinese whispers" and even students of elementary psychology can testify that a simple message for example 10 words become changed and altered even after passing through just half a dozen messengers. Bear in mind that that there are thousands upon thousands of Hadith more than just 10 words long but detailed and complex. They passed through hundreds of miles over hundreds of years in a land with few literate scribes and few materials to write on. It's easy to say "they were meticulous and careful in their examination of quotes from the messenger", but NO ONE can say for certain that changes were not made whether conscious or not.

Finally there are numerous Hadith's which very much contradict the Quran. Here are some great examples:

The prophets miracles:
There are quite a few hadiths that quote many miracles performed by the Prophet. Yet according to the Quran the Prophet did not perform any miracles. The only miracle given to the Prophet was the Quran itself, as witness the verse:

"They said, `How come no miracles were sent to him from his Lord?' Say, `Miracles come only from God, and I am no more than a warner'. Is it not enough of a miracle that we sent down to you this scripture, which is being recited to them? Indeed, it is a mercy and a message for those who believe."


Punishment for Apostasy
The hadith prescribes the death penalty for apostasy. "If anyone leaves his religion, then kill him." (Bukhari and Abu Daud) The Quran, on the other hand, makes no provision for the killing of apostates. Verse 5:54 states:

"O you who believe, if any of you reverts from his religion, then God will bring people whom He loves as they love Him, and humble themselves towards the believers, while being stern towards the disbelievers; and strive in the cause of God; and never worry about any blamer who might blame them. Such is God's grace that He bestows upon whomever He wills. God is bounteous, omniscient."

Verse 2:256 affirms complete freedom of religious belief.


Anti-logic and rationality
While the Quran insists that we use our minds to think, some hadith falsely allege that humans can never think. "Jundub reported that the Messenger of God said, `Whoever interprets the Quran using his own intellect, even if the interpretation is correct, he is committing a grievous sin.' " (Tirmidhi and Abu Daud)



As is my understanding, when Prophet Muhammad died, he left with us only the Quran * and nothing but the Quran * as a guidance for Muslims. Moreover, the Quran pronounced this fact as well when God stated several times that the function of the messenger was only to deliver the message. Verse 92 of Sura 5 is one of them. Nevertheless is seems to me Muslim society between 200-250 years after the death of the Prophet, through their religious scholars built a new doctrine to the effect that the Prophet has left them the Quran and the hadith and that they must hold on to both. Historical facts also prove beyond doubt that there were no hadith collections existing at the time of the Prophet's death.


I look forward to your thoughts.

 

[- Qatada -]

Hey.


Is that basically from the "Qur'an only" site? The ones where they claim that Qur'an is the only book which should be followed? :?


By the way - can you bring forth one claim at a time please so it's easier to discuss instead?



Regards.

 

[Spartan]

Hey.


Is that basically from the "Qur'an only" site? The ones where they claim that Qur'an is the only book which should be followed? :?


By the way - can you bring forth one claim at a time please so it's easier to discuss instead?



Regards.

No its from a number of texts and sites

Juynboll, G.H.A., The Authenticity of the Traditional Literature, E.J.Brill, Leiden, 1969. (Authenticity)

Studies in Hadith Methodology and Literature, American Trust Publications, Indianapolis, 1977. (Hadith Methodology)

Muhammad Iqbal, The Reconstruction of Religious Thought in Islam, S.M. Ashraf, Lahore, 1958. (Reconstruction)

Rashad Khalifa, Quran: The Final Scripture, Islamic Productions, Tucson 1981. (Quran)

www.rashadkhalifa.org

http://www.quran.org/quran.htm

Some information also provided by other Muslims I have spoken to.

By the way the whole arguement I'm trying to make is that based on what I have read there doesn't seem to be a valid reason for having a Hadith or Sunnah when the whole point of the Quran was to provide an easy to understand "manual" for how to live as a Muslim. That by creating a Hadith or Sunnah these scholars elevate the messenger to a status that God did not want. The third and final arguement is that the Hadith and Sunnah are not as accurate as the majority believe. Those are my arguements.

 

[Hawa]

If I may just cover one part of your questions,


Indispensability of Hadith
Dr. Khalid Alvi

Sunnah or Hadith is the second source from which the teachings of Islam are drawn. Hadith literally means a saying conveyed to man, but in Muhaditheen's terminology Hadith means sayings of the Prophet, his action or practice of his silent approval of the action or practice. Hadith and Sunnah are used interchangeably, but sometimes these are used for different meanings.

To deal with the topic it is necessary to know the position of the Prophet in Islam, because the indispensibility of Hadith depends upon the position of the Prophet.

Analyzing the problem we can visualize three possibilities:

1. The duty of the Prophet was only to convey the message and nothing more was required from him.

2. He had not only to convey the message but also to act upon it and to explain it. But all that was for the specified period and after his death Qur'an is sufficient to guide humanity.

3. No doubt he had to convey the Divine Message but it was also his duty to act upon it and to explain it to the people. His actions and explanations are a source of guidance forever. His sayings, actions, practices and explanations are a source of light for every Muslim in every age.

The learned men of the Muslim Millat are of the unanimous view that only the third point is the correct assessment of the Prophet's position in Islam. The Qur'an contains dozens of reminders of the important position of the Prophet. For instance the Qur'an says:

"And verily in the messenger of Allah ye have a good example for him who looketh unto Allah and the last day and remembereth Allah much." [Al-Ahzab 31]

According to this verse, every Muslim is bound to have the good example of the Prophet as an ideal in life. In another verse he has been made a 'Hakam' for the Muslims by Allah Almighty. No one remains Muslim if he does not accept the Prophet's decisions and judgements:

"But no, by thy Lord, they can have no real faith until they make thee judge in all disputes between them and find in their souls no resistance against thy decisions but accept them with the fullest conviction."[An-Nisa: 65]

While explaining the qualities of Muslims the Qur'an says:

"The answer of the believers, when summoned to Allah and His apostle, in order that He may judge between them, is no other than this: They say: we hear and we obey." [An-Nur: 51]

In many places the Qur'an has given its verdict on this issue. The Qur'an says:

"Obey Allah and obey the Messenger." [An-Nisa 59]

and

"Whatever the Messenger giveth you take it and whatever he forbiddeth abstain from it." [Al-Hashr: 7]

Qur'an is very clear in expressing its view on the position of the Prophet. According to the Qur'an the Prophet has four capacities and he must be obeyed in every capacity. He is Mu`allim wa Murabbee he is Shaari` one who explains the Book, he is a law-giver and judge, and he is a ruler. In all these capacities he is an ideal example for the Muslims. I am quoting a few verses of the Holy Book just to give a hint of this topic.

"Allah did confer a great favour on the believers when He sent among them an apostle from among themselves rehearsing untothem the signs of Allah, sanctifying them in scripture andwisdom while, before that, they had been in manifest error." [Al-Imran: 164]

"And We have sent down unto thee the Message that thou mayest explain clearly to men what is sent for them."[An-Nahl: 44]

"For he commands them what is just and forbids them what is evil; he allows them as lawful what is good and pure and prohibits them from what is bad and impure. He releases them from their heavy burdens and from the yokes that are upon them." [Al-Araf: 157]

"O you who believe! Obey Allah and obey the apostle, and those charged with authority among you. If ye differ in anything amonst yourselves refer it to Allah and His Apostle, if you believe in Allah and the last day." [An-Nisa: 59]

"It is not fitting for a believer, man or woman when a matterhas been decided by Allah and His apostle to have any option about their decision. If any one disobeys Allah and His apostle, he is indeed on a clearly wrong path." [Al-Ahzab: 36]

In all these verses, the Qur'an has explained various aspects of the Prophets personality. One can judge the importance of the Prophet from these verses. I am reminded of another important verse of the Qur'an, which is actually a verdict against those who do not believe in Hadith as an authentic source of law:

"If any one contends with the Prophet even after guidance has been plainly conveyed to him, and follows a path other than that becoming to men of faith, We shall leave him in the path he has chosen and land him in Hell, what an evil refuge." [An-Nisa: 110]

The Qur'an while pressing the Muslims to obey the Prophet, goes a step further when it announces that the Prophethood of Muhammad (peace be upon him) is above all the limitations of time and space. He is the last Prophet and is a Messenger of Allah for the whole of humanity for all time to come.

Hadith is nothing but a reflection of the personality of the Prophet, who is to be obeyed at every cost.

Any student of the Qur'an will see that the Holy Book generally deals with the broad principles or essentials of religion, going into details in very rare cases. The details were generously supplied by the Prophet himself, either by showing in his practice how an injunction shall be carried out, or by giving an explanation in words. The Sunnah or Hadith of the Holy Prophet was not, as is generally supposed, a thing of which the need may have been felt only after his death, for it was very much needed in his lifetime. The two most important religious institutions of Islam are prayer and zakat; yet when the injunction relating to prayer and zakat were delivered, and they were repeatedly revealed in both Mecca and Madina, no details were supplied. Keep up prayers (aqimoo as-salaah the Qur'anic injunction and it was the Prophet himself who by his own actions gave details of the prayer and said: (Salloo kamaa ra'aytamoonee usaallee) "Pray as you see me praying."

Payment of zakah is again an injunction frequently repeated in the Qur'an yet it was the Prophet (peace be upon him) who gave the rules and regulations for its payment and collection. These are but two example; but since Islam covers the entire sphere of human activities, hundreds of points had to be explained by the Prophet (peace be upon him) by his example in action and in words.

The Ulama have discussed the question of Hadith in detail as a "wahyun khafee" and prophetic wisdom. I do not want to go into the details, but one thing must be stated clearly that there were cases when the Prophet, not having received a revelation, made a personal effort to formulate opinion through his own wisdom. Either it was corrected by revelation or it was approved. The importance of the Sunnah even as a second source of Islam was a settled issue for the Companions of the Prophet. I quote only one of the many examples: that of Mu`az ibn Jabal who said to the Prophet that he would decide according to the Sunnah if he did not find the solution of a problem in the Book. To quote Dr. Hamidullah:

"The importance of Hadith is increased for the Muslim by the fact that the Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him) not only taught, but took the opportunity of putting his teachings into practice in all the important affairs of life. He lived for twenty three years after his appointment as the Messenger of Allah. He endowed his community with a religion, which he scrupulously practiced himself. He founded a state, which he administered as the supreme head, maintaining internal peace and order, heading armies for external defense, judging and deciding the litigations of his subjects, punishing the criminals and legislating in all walks of life. He married and left a model of family life. Another important fact is that he did not declare himself to be above the ordinary law which he imposed on others. His practice was not mere private conduct, but a detailed interpretation and application of his teachings." (Introduction to Islam page 23)

The man, therefore, who embraced Islam stood in need of both the Qur'an and the Sunnah. Actually Hadith is so important that without it one cannot fully understand the Holy Book and Islam or be able to apply it to one's life and practice.

http://www.islaam.com/Article.aspx?id=232

 

[aamirsaab]

Let's lay down the foundations:

Quran - a complete religious text/book of guidance that we as muslims should follow

Sunnah - actions of the Prophet [saw]; since Muhammad [saw] was seen as perfect, we should follow his sunnah.

Hadith - key principles from the Quran. Works in conjunction with both Quran AND sunnah. When followed correctly, helps muslims get on to the path of Islam.

Wham, bam, strawberry jam!

 

[Hawa]

In addition creating a Hadith or Sunnah elevates the messenger to a status that God did not want. Those are my arguements.

It simply elevates him to a status of teacher as well as messenger, nothing more nothing less.

 

[Umar001]

Can anyone please tell me your thoughts on this: Why were the Sunnah and Hadith created in the first place? Why did scholars find it necessary to write up to 50 volumes of Hadith to help us understand a single book of God's work? It just doesn't make sense to me. Bear in mind I am a non-muslim however I have read through the Quran in Engligh so perhaps there are some Arabic words that cannot be described by the English language but anyway here goes:

Before the quotations, I wanted to point out that the Sunnah and hadith were not created as you put it. The Sunnah, meaning the way or path was just that, the path or way of Muhammad, peace be upon him, thus it was not created or thought up by some men.

God told the believers that His book, the Quran is a complete and fully detailed text (6:19,114, & 12:111)

Exactly, and one of the things the book contains is commands to refer back to the Messenger peace be upon him, so this full explanation the Qu'ran speaks of includes reffering to the way of the Prophet. Many verses speak of following Allah AND His Messenger, one being;

And whatsoever the Messenger (Muhammad SAW) gives you, take it, and whatsoever he forbids you, abstain (from it), and fear Allāh. Verily, Allāh is Severe in punishment.​

This is part of a verse talking about booty and so forth, and this last part is clear, what the Messenger gives us take it and what he forbids leave it, so to know what he gives us or forbids and rulings as such we need to know what he told us.

With clear signs and Books (We sent the Messengers). And We have also sent down unto you (O Muhammad SAW) the reminder and the advice (the Qur'ān), that you may explain clearly to men what is sent down to them, and that they may give thought.​

So part of explanation of the Qu'ran is given to us by Muhammad, peace be upon him, 'that you may explain clearly to men what is sent down to them'

God only needed the Quran to spread his message he did not need other books or messages otherwise they would have been given to Mohammed to dictate. He does not run out of words or information. See 18:109 and 31:27.

This point is invalid, you are presuming things, God only needed the Qu'ran otherwise he would have given another book to Muhammad, but this is implyin that you know God's plan, that He would have given another book. As for the Quotation then those serve no purpose within this point at all.

Other quotes from the Quran on Hadith:

"These are God's revelations (Quran) that we recite to you truthfully. In which HADITH other than God and His revelations do they believe?" 45:6

"Then in what statement after it(Quran) will they believe?"77:50

"Let them produce a Hadith like this ( I.e Quran) if they are truthful." 52:34

"Therefore, let Me deal with those who reject this Hadith(Quran); we will lead them on whence they never perceive." 68:44

I understand that it is important to obey the prophets words as they are gods words as dictated to him but there are numerous surah which state that it is the ONLY message of Muhammed.

4:105, 18:27 tells me that the only message of Muhammed is God's message as dictated to him.

Surely, We have sent down to you (O Muhammad SAW) the Book (this Qur'ān) in truth that you might judge between men by that which Allāh has shown you (i.e. has taught you through Divine Inspiration), so be not a pleader for the treacherous. (An-Nisa 4:105)​

And recite what has been revealed to you (O Muhammad SAW) of the Book (the Qur'ān) of your Lord (i.e. recite it, understand and follow its teachings and act on its orders and preach it to men). None can change His Words, and none will you find as a refuge other than Him. (Al-Kahf 18:27)​

Where does it say that? All the above quotations you gave are speaking of the Qu'ran as something we need to believe in but do not limit it to that, since those who follow the Sunnah believe it is a revelation in its own right. For example you quote 68:44 which is totally inaplicable to this topic since noone here rejects Qu'ran. 52:34 you quoted but this is speaking to people who claim the Qu'ran is nto the word of God:

Or do they say: "He (Muhammad SAW) has forged it (this Qur'ān)?" Nay! They believe not! (At-Tur 52:33)​

Again this is nothing to do with those who believe the Sunnah is inspired. I urge you to please identify the verses. Just because Allah uses the word Hadith does not mean it is talkin about the Hadith of Muhammad.

When the prophet Muhammed died, he left behind only ONE book, the Quran. The only book that the prophet Muhammed followed was the Quran.

This is incorrect, when muhammad died he had left the Qu'ran in various places of animal skin and so on and in people's hearts, and he had also left the rulings and explanations of things, he had left the way to pray for people, the way to fight, the way to fast, the way to marry and so forth, all these things he done as religious matters were part of him explaining the Qur'an and were all part of our religion.

In addition I read on Ibn Saeed Al-Khudry and it is reported that Muhammed said: "Do not write anything from me other than the Quran. Anything else shall be destroyed."

There are numerous others who say pretty much the same thing: Zayd Ibn Thabit, Ibn Al-Salah, Abu Hurayra, Ibn Hanbal are some of them.

I doubt Abu Hurayra had the opinion not to write statements an rulings of our Prophet, since Abu Hurayra I believe gave his permission, but even if they said not to write it down then it is not saying do no memorise it, and what you fail to realise is that Abu Hurayra narrated a tremendous amount of hadith himself, as for the issue of writing down, there is an article on load-islam which I am sure someone will post, and this is understood that noone should write Qur'an and Hadith on the same paper when the Quran was being revealed lest one of them will get confused and mix the two.

Is it not true that Muhammed without the Quran is just another human being like us and isn't obeying the messenger on the condition that he must have a message? (i.e the Quran). Producing Hadith and Sunnah in my opinion is the same as elevating Muhammed to the status of a messiah or God. It is like classifying the messenger is an independent power to be obeyed apart from God.

No, since Muhammad is the messenger he is representative of God's religion, do you think Muhammad prayed the way he wanted without him being guided by God? If you say Yes, that the way Muhammad prayed is his own doing then you are claiming he is a maker of part of the religion thus making him equal to God! And if you say no Muhammad did not make it up God told him, then it is only our job to follow what God told Muhammad to do.

Did Muhammad the messenger not pronounce and act outside the Quran? It is only too obvious that he did and must have done so. After all he was human, and if he were human why is it we must find a reason to follow HIM as opposed to his message? "Say, (O Muhammed) "I am no more than a human being like you...." 18:110

What is the verse speaking of?

Say (O Muhammad SAW): "I am only a man like you. It has been inspired to me that your Ilāh (God) is One Ilāh (God i.e. Allāh). So whoever hopes for the Meeting with his Lord, let him work righteousness and associate none as a partner in the worship of his Lord." (Al-Kahf 18:110)​

So it's not just like that, he, Muhammad, peace be upon him, recieved inspiration in both the Qur'an and his actions, thus it is for us to follow both, you seem to think that following his Sunnah is in opposition to following his message, but His Message encompasses the Sunnah!! His message from God was the Qur'an and Sunnah!

For example if a researcher finds that alchohol produces a deadly cancer yet because he is fond of a particular drink (wine lets say) he still consumes a little of it every night. Does that give people who are health conscious an excuse to have a little every night just because the researcher is having it? It is the same thing with the messenger and Islam.

It is not because the researcher isnt a representative, for example, what would be more suitable, is that if the researcher is working for a company a higher authority, and that company was trustworthy then it would be normal to assume that what ever this researcher done in his work, the company his higher authority was ok with it, unless they rebuked him.

Simiarly, Muhammad, peace be upon him, was working for a higher authority, thus anything Muhammad as a representative of God done which God didnt like God would have dealt with it, lest people would think this is part of the religion.

Someone please provide the verse where Allah says that if Muhammad had lied then Allah would sieze him.

From what I have been told `hadith' is used in the Quran to mean `news', `story', `message' or `thing'. Out of the 36 times it is used in various grammatical forms, none refers to what is known as the "Prophetic" hadith (i.e Hadith created by the Prophet or by other people on behalf of the Prophet) as another source of law beside the Quran. In fact, in 10 different statements the word refers to the Quran and categorically rejects any hadith besides the Quran.

Post all those type of verses and I have a feeling we find them challangeing people who do not believe in the Qu'ran.

Indeed in the Messenger of Allāh (Muhammad SAW) you have a good example to follow for him who hopes in (the Meeting with) Allāh and the Last Day and remembers Allāh much. (Al-Ahzab 33:21)​

Many other verse make it clear that we are to follow the messenger, but not only that but common sense makes it clear that we should follow the Messenger.

This is not to say that the creators of the hadith were conspirators or fabricators. However I'm sure everyone has heard of the game "chinese whispers" and even students of elementary psychology can testify that a simple message for example 10 words become changed and altered even after passing through just half a dozen messengers.

It is with that in mind that the whole science of Mustalah came into being. We dont just accept anything you know.

Bear in mind that that there are thousands upon thousands of Hadith more than just 10 words long but detailed and complex. They passed through hundreds of miles over hundreds of years in a land with few literate scribes and few materials to write on. It's easy to say "they were meticulous and careful in their examination of quotes from the messenger", but NO ONE can say for certain that changes were not made whether conscious or not.

I do not know what you would ascribe certainity to but if one follows logic and probability then one can be certain that the bad hadith have been rooted out and the religion is thus still with us today.

I don't know about few literate scribes though, I wonder where you got that from.

Finally there are numerous Hadith's which very much contradict the Quran. Here are some great examples:

The prophets miracles:
There are quite a few hadiths that quote many miracles performed by the Prophet. Yet according to the Quran the Prophet did not perform any miracles. The only miracle given to the Prophet was the Quran itself, as witness the verse:

"They said, `How come no miracles were sent to him from his Lord?' Say, `Miracles come only from God, and I am no more than a warner'. Is it not enough of a miracle that we sent down to you this scripture, which is being recited to them? Indeed, it is a mercy and a message for those who believe."

Are you sure? This is the Qu'ran quoting non believers, you know what they say about the Qu'ran nowdays? If we go by their logic then there's no point in believing anything. And this verse says 'is it not enough of a miracle that we sent down to you this scritpture' this is clear, the Qu'ran itself is enough of a miracle. I could cook all week, and on friday make your favouirate dinner, and you ask me to cook next week, and I say 'Isnt it enough for you that I made you your favouraite?' which wouldnt mean that I just done that and nothing else, but I singled that meal out because it was the best, just as the Qu'ran is the best of Miracles.

Punishment for Apostasy
The hadith prescribes the death penalty for apostasy. "If anyone leaves his religion, then kill him." (Bukhari and Abu Daud) The Quran, on the other hand, makes no provision for the killing of apostates. Verse 5:54 states:

"O you who believe, if any of you reverts from his religion, then God will bring people whom He loves as they love Him, and humble themselves towards the believers, while being stern towards the disbelievers; and strive in the cause of God; and never worry about any blamer who might blame them. Such is God's grace that He bestows upon whomever He wills. God is bounteous, omniscient."

This doesnt mention anything neither for or against the hadith.

Verse 2:256 affirms complete freedom of religious belief.

This doesnt mention the person who has embraced then left, rather this verse could be and can be seen as that noone can be forced into the religion, why? Because the truth stands clear from falsehood.

Anti-logic and rationality
While the Quran insists that we use our minds to think, some hadith falsely allege that humans can never think. "Jundub reported that the Messenger of God said, `Whoever interprets the Quran using his own intellect, even if the interpretation is correct, he is committing a grievous sin.' " (Tirmidhi and Abu Daud)

Please bring forth all the verses about using your mind, you will find most of them deal with Allah speaking to disbelievers about the universal signs of Allah, like surah 21:30:

Have not those who disbelieve known that the heavens and the earth were joined together as one united piece, then We parted them? And We have made from water every living thing. Will they not then believe? (Al-Anbiya 21:30)​

As is my understanding, when Prophet Muhammad died, he left with us only the Quran * and nothing but the Quran * as a guidance for Muslims.

Actually since the Sunnah is the acts and ways of Muhammad he left them the Qu'ran and Sunnah. Furthermore he warned them to stick to both.

Moreover, the Quran pronounced this fact as well when God stated several times that the function of the messenger was only to deliver the message. Verse 92 of Sura 5 is one of them.

And his sunnah was part of the message, this is what your failing to see. The Message was the religion of Islam, and the religion of Islam is found inthe Quran and the Sunnah.

Nevertheless is seems to me Muslim society between 200-250 years after the death of the Prophet, through their religious scholars built a new doctrine to the effect that the Prophet has left them the Quran and the hadith and that they must hold on to both.

Wrong, hadith were used by the people when Muhammad died, rulings and so forth given out as Muhammad gave them,what happend 250 years after was the major compilation of these hadith. Before hand there were compilations and hadith were used.


A very tiring and long reply I hope it is fruitful.

 

[Spartan]

Thank you so far for your contributions

 

[Spartan]

Other quotes from the Quran on Hadith:

"These are God's revelations (Quran) that we recite to you truthfully. In which HADITH other than God and His revelations do they believe?" 45:6

"Then in what statement after it(Quran) will they believe?"77:50

"Let them produce a Hadith like this ( I.e Quran) if they are truthful." 52:34

"Therefore, let Me deal with those who reject this Hadith(Quran); we will lead them on whence they never perceive." 68:44

I understand that it is important to obey the prophets words as they are gods words as dictated to him but there are numerous surah which state that it is the ONLY message of Muhammed.

4:105, 18:27 tells me that the only message of Muhammed is God's message as dictated to him.

Surely, We have sent down to you (O Muhammad SAW) the Book (this Qur'ān) in truth that you might judge between men by that which Allāh has shown you (i.e. has taught you through Divine Inspiration), so be not a pleader for the treacherous. (An-Nisa 4:105)​

And recite what has been revealed to you (O Muhammad SAW) of the Book (the Qur'ān) of your Lord (i.e. recite it, understand and follow its teachings and act on its orders and preach it to men). None can change His Words, and none will you find as a refuge other than Him. (Al-Kahf 18:27)​

Where does it say that? All the above quotations you gave are speaking of the Qu'ran as something we need to believe in but do not limit it to that, since those who follow the Sunnah believe it is a revelation in its own right. For example you quote 68:44 which is totally inaplicable to this topic since noone here rejects Qu'ran. 52:34 you quoted but this is speaking to people who claim the Qu'ran is nto the word of God:

Or do they say: "He (Muhammad SAW) has forged it (this Qur'ān)?" Nay! They believe not! (At-Tur 52:33)​

Again this is nothing to do with those who believe the Sunnah is inspired. I urge you to please identify the verses. Just because Allah uses the word Hadith does not mean it is talkin about the Hadith of Muhammad.




This is incorrect, when muhammad died he had left the Qu'ran in various places of animal skin and so on and in people's hearts, and he had also left the rulings and explanations of things, he had left the way to pray for people, the way to fight, the way to fast, the way to marry and so forth, all these things he done as religious matters were part of him explaining the Qur'an and were all part of our religion.



I doubt Abu Hurayra had the opinion not to write statements an rulings of our Prophet, since Abu Hurayra I believe gave his permission, but even if they said not to write it down then it is not saying do no memorise it, and what you fail to realise is that Abu Hurayra narrated a tremendous amount of hadith himself, as for the issue of writing down, there is an article on load-islam which I am sure someone will post, and this is understood that noone should write Qur'an and Hadith on the same paper when the Quran was being revealed lest one of them will get confused and mix the two.




No, since Muhammad is the messenger he is representative of God's religion, do you think Muhammad prayed the way he wanted without him being guided by God? If you say Yes, that the way Muhammad prayed is his own doing then you are claiming he is a maker of part of the religion thus making him equal to God! And if you say no Muhammad did not make it up God told him, then it is only our job to follow what God told Muhammad to do.







What is the verse speaking of?

Say (O Muhammad SAW): "I am only a man like you. It has been inspired to me that your Ilāh (God) is One Ilāh (God i.e. Allāh). So whoever hopes for the Meeting with his Lord, let him work righteousness and associate none as a partner in the worship of his Lord." (Al-Kahf 18:110)​

So it's not just like that, he, Muhammad, peace be upon him, recieved inspiration in both the Qur'an and his actions, thus it is for us to follow both, you seem to think that following his Sunnah is in opposition to following his message, but His Message encompasses the Sunnah!! His message from God was the Qur'an and Sunnah!



It is not because the researcher isnt a representative, for example, what would be more suitable, is that if the researcher is working for a company a higher authority, and that company was trustworthy then it would be normal to assume that what ever this researcher done in his work, the company his higher authority was ok with it, unless they rebuked him.

Simiarly, Muhammad, peace be upon him, was working for a higher authority, thus anything Muhammad as a representative of God done which God didnt like God would have dealt with it, lest people would think this is part of the religion.

Someone please provide the verse where Allah says that if Muhammad had lied then Allah would sieze him.




Post all those type of verses and I have a feeling we find them challangeing people who do not believe in the Qu'ran.

Indeed in the Messenger of Allāh (Muhammad SAW) you have a good example to follow for him who hopes in (the Meeting with) Allāh and the Last Day and remembers Allāh much. (Al-Ahzab 33:21)​

Many other verse make it clear that we are to follow the messenger, but not only that but common sense makes it clear that we should follow the Messenger.



It is with that in mind that the whole science of Mustalah came into being. We dont just accept anything you know.



I do not know what you would ascribe certainity to but if one follows logic and probability then one can be certain that the bad hadith have been rooted out and the religion is thus still with us today.

I don't know about few literate scribes though, I wonder where you got that from.



Are you sure? This is the Qu'ran quoting non believers, you know what they say about the Qu'ran nowdays? If we go by their logic then there's no point in believing anything. And this verse says 'is it not enough of a miracle that we sent down to you this scritpture' this is clear, the Qu'ran itself is enough of a miracle. I could cook all week, and on friday make your favouirate dinner, and you ask me to cook next week, and I say 'Isnt it enough for you that I made you your favouraite?' which wouldnt mean that I just done that and nothing else, but I singled that meal out because it was the best, just as the Qu'ran is the best of Miracles.



This doesnt mention anything neither for or against the hadith.



This doesnt mention the person who has embraced then left, rather this verse could be and can be seen as that noone can be forced into the religion, why? Because the truth stands clear from falsehood.



Please bring forth all the verses about using your mind, you will find most of them deal with Allah speaking to disbelievers about the universal signs of Allah, like surah 21:30:

Have not those who disbelieve known that the heavens and the earth were joined together as one united piece, then We parted them? And We have made from water every living thing. Will they not then believe? (Al-Anbiya 21:30)​

Actually since the Sunnah is the acts and ways of Muhammad he left them the Qu'ran and Sunnah. Furthermore he warned them to stick to both.




And his sunnah was part of the message, this is what your failing to see. The Message was the religion of Islam, and the religion of Islam is found inthe Quran and the Sunnah.



Wrong, hadith were used by the people when Muhammad died, rulings and so forth given out as Muhammad gave them,what happend 250 years after was the major compilation of these hadith. Before hand there were compilations and hadith were used.


A very tiring and long reply I hope it is fruitful.

Before the quotations, I wanted to point out that the Sunnah and hadith were not created as you put it. The Sunnah, meaning the way or path was just that, the path or way of Muhammad, peace be upon him, thus it was not created or thought up by some men.

Originally Posted by Spartan
God told the believers that His book, the Quran is a complete and fully detailed text (6:19,114, & 12:111)

Originally Posted by Al-Habeshi
Exactly, and one of the things the book contains is commands to refer back to the Messenger peace be upon him, so this full explanation the Qu'ran speaks of includes reffering to the way of the Prophet. Many verses speak of following Allah AND His Messenger, one being;

And whatsoever the Messenger (Muhammad SAW) gives you, take it, and whatsoever he forbids you, abstain (from it), and fear Allāh. Verily, Allāh is Severe in punishment.​

This is part of a verse talking about booty and so forth, and this last part is clear, what the Messenger gives us take it and what he forbids leave it, so to know what he gives us or forbids and rulings as such we need to know what he told us.

With clear signs and Books (We sent the Messengers). And We have also sent down unto you (O Muhammad SAW) the reminder and the advice (the Qur'ān), that you may explain clearly to men what is sent down to them, and that they may give thought.​

So part of explanation of the Qu'ran is given to us by Muhammad, peace be upon him, 'that you may explain clearly to men what is sent down to them'




This point is invalid, you are presuming things, God only needed the Qu'ran otherwise he would have given another book to Muhammad, but this is implyin that you know God's plan, that He would have given another book. As for the Quotation then those serve no purpose within this point at all.


"Before the quotations, I wanted to point out that the Sunnah and hadith were not created as you put it. The Sunnah, meaning the way or path was just that, the path or way of Muhammad, peace be upon him, thus it was not created or thought up by some men."

I understand that but what it all boiled down to was that it relied on the truth, honesty and sincerity of a large number of people over hundreds of years as opposed to a single man chosen by God.

"Originally Posted by Spartan
God told the believers that His book, the Quran is a complete and fully detailed text (6:19,114, & 12:111)

Exactly, and one of the things the book contains is commands to refer back to the Messenger peace be upon him, so this full explanation the Qu'ran speaks of includes reffering to the way of the Prophet. Many verses speak of following Allah AND His Messenger, one being;

And whatsoever the Messenger (Muhammad SAW) gives you, take it, and whatsoever he forbids you, abstain (from it), and fear Allāh. Verily, Allāh is Severe in punishment.
This is part of a verse talking about booty and so forth, and this last part is clear, what the Messenger gives us take it and what he forbids leave it, so to know what he gives us or forbids and rulings as such we need to know what he told us.

With clear signs and Books (We sent the Messengers). And We have also sent down unto you (O Muhammad SAW) the reminder and the advice (the Qur'ān), that you may explain clearly to men what is sent down to them, and that they may give thought.
So part of explanation of the Qu'ran is given to us by Muhammad, peace be upon him, 'that you may explain clearly to men what is sent down to them'"


If this is true then why is it stated in the Quran several times, "The sole function of the messenger is to deliver the message." It should be noted that the Quran uses the word `messenger' and not `Muhammad'. The obedience therefore should be to the messenger, i.e to the message that he brought from God. In other words God and messenger in this context constitute one concept which should not be separated.

The second idea that obedience to the messenger requires upholding the hadith is also rejected in the Quran. As I wrote earlier Did the messenger not pronounce an act outside the Quran? He did, as the leader of his Muslim comminuty and as an ordinary human.

In this case, the Quran, regarding leadership and obedience in verse 4:59 applies: "that the people are duty-bound to obey their rightful leader or leaders in so far as he or they do not trespass the bounds of God." It can therefore be reasonable to say that the messenger, the leader and the man, would not have said or done anything contrary to the divine message he brought, after he knew the message. Therefore, the truly genuine hadith can only be the ones that do not contradict the Quran. Certain decisions he made as leader of his Muslim community that scholars have recorded must show this. The Medina Charter is a good example of this. Although the principles of religious freedom, inter-communal equality and unity, local autonomy and government underlying the charter conform to the teachings of the Quran, the forms they took were conditioned by the circumstances at that particular time in history. In the same way, his decisions on other matters concerning methods that the Quran, for obvious reasons, does not stipulate were determined by certain points and circumstances in history and do not bind the Muslims after him. History shows that this was the exact attitude of the four caliphs, To put simply the messenger acted outside of the Quran where necessary UNLESS they broke the very laws he was given, however he did not break the laws of the Quran and the circumstances prevailing at the time and indeed any other point in history did not require the Muslims to follow both the Quran and the messengers every action as though they were one but rather every action of the Quran and "THOSE IN AUTHORITY AMONG YOU" as stated in 4:59. In other words the lawmakers at the time of the messenger.



Originally Posted by Spartan
When the prophet Muhammed died, he left behind only ONE book, the Quran. The only book that the prophet Muhammed followed was the Quran.

Originally Posted by Al-Habeshi
This is incorrect, when muhammad died he had left the Qu'ran in various places of animal skin and so on and in people's hearts, and he had also left the rulings and explanations of things, he had left the way to pray for people, the way to fight, the way to fast, the way to marry and so forth, all these things he done as religious matters were part of him explaining the Qur'an and were all part of our religion "

No, since Muhammad is the messenger he is representative of God's religion, do you think Muhammad prayed the way he wanted without him being guided by God? If you say Yes, that the way Muhammad prayed is his own doing then you are claiming he is a maker of part of the religion thus making him equal to God! And if you say no Muhammad did not make it up God told him, then it is only our job to follow what God told Muhammad to do."

He is representative of what God asks of us and yes he prayed the way God told him to pray, which is evident in the Quran. The Quran does actually mention how to pray for example, I do not believe you need the Hadith to explain it:

normal ablution (5:6)
the abnormal ablution (4:43)
the proper dress (7:31)
standing and facing the qiblah (2:144)
the times (11:114, 17:78, 24:58, 2:238, 30:17-18 and 20:130)
the bowing and prostrating (2:43,125,3:42, 22:77, 48:29)
using moderate voice when saying prayers (17:110)
not calling anyone else besides God in prayer (72:18)
modified mode of prayer at unusual times (4:101,103)
It is quite obvious that many important details regarding the mode of prayer are given in the Quran.

Obseve one of these Surah

normal ablution (5:6): "O you who have believed, when you rise to perform prayer, wash your faces and your forearms to your elbows and wipe your feet to the ankles. and if you are in a state of Janabah, then purify yourselves. But if you are ill or on a journey or one of you comes from the place of relieving himself or you have contacted women, and do not find water, then seek clean earth and wipe over your hands and faces with it. Allah does not intend to make it difficult for you but he intends to purify you and complete his favour upon you that you may be grateful" Is that too difficult to understand? I understand that and I am no where near as learned as most Muslims. Again I ask why is the Hadith necessary when all this is self explanatory? The Quran explains itself, if we go by this example at least, it does not need interference from other sources on performing ablution.

If you pause for a moment you will also realise that "we" don't learn how to pray from the hadith. "We" learn to do so from parents and teachers who inherit the practice through the generations from the first source.

It should also be remembered that the Quran repeatedly teaches the people to be concerned with doing good sincerely and not to be concerned with form. It is obvious why this should be so. An obsession with form would defeat the purpose of an action. A good example of this being the Saudi Prince Sultan Salman who accompanied the American space mission, Discovery, in 1985 and who exposed the inability of the traditional Saudi ulama to answer the question of how he should pray in the space shuttle was a good modern illustration of how one may become obsessed with form.


Orginally posted by Al-Habeshi
So it's not just like that, he, Muhammad, peace be upon him, recieved inspiration in both the Qur'an and his actions, thus it is for us to follow both, you seem to think that following his Sunnah is in opposition to following his message, but His Message encompasses the Sunnah!! His message from God was the Qur'an and Sunnah!"

Where does it say in the Quran to follow his Sunnah? The MESSENGERS Sunnah?

Originally Posted by Al-Habeshi
"Actually since the Sunnah is the acts and ways of Muhammad he left them the Qu'ran and Sunnah. Furthermore he warned them to stick to both."

I already responded to this statement earlier. The Quran as mentioned previously warned against an obsession on mundane form. There is no best practice for example on correct form when sleeping. Sleeping a certain way because Muhammed slept that way isn't going to make God happy (at least thats what I believe). Legitimate and righteous acts not mundane trivial matters as explained in the Quran are only necessary. If it were necessary to follow every indiscriminate detail of the Prophets life then essentially you may as well throw out the Surah were God basically explains "I have given you eyes ears and a mouth in order to pursue truth and not accept that which is simply presented you. So that you may work things out for yourselves and make decisions for yourself" (This is in my words as I'm still trying to find that particular Surah though I will post it once I have found it) If it were simply a matter of following everything the prophet did that would make following harder not easier.

Originally Posted by Al-Habeshi
and his sunnah was part of the message, this is what your failing to see. The Message was the religion of Islam, and the religion of Islam is found inthe Quran and the Sunnah.

I have responded to this previously as well. Please provide some kind of evidence for this. Is there a specific Surah as that is a very big sweeping statement to make on the whole of Islam. My thoughts are that the message of Islam is given through the Quran given to mankind by the messenger,nothing more nothing less.. If it is an inseperable part of Muslim teaching then why the contradiction between Sunnah and Quran, Sunnah and Sunnah (verses) and Sunnah and Hadith?

Interestingly the word `sunna' is used in the Quran to refer to the "divine system" or "law" and to the example of the fate suffered by ancient communities. None refers to the behavior of the Prophet. If there are specific Surah that refute this please direct me.

 

[Spartan]

Let's lay down the foundations:

Quran - a complete religious text/book of guidance that we as muslims should follow

Sunnah - actions of the Prophet [saw]; since Muhammad [saw] was seen as perfect, we should follow his sunnah.

Hadith - key principles from the Quran. Works in conjunction with both Quran AND sunnah. When followed correctly, helps muslims get on to the path of Islam.

Wham, bam, strawberry jam!

Hold on a minute. Since when has it ever been confirmed the messenger was perfect? Although I never recall him making grievous sins as that wouldn't make sense for God to choose him, I do recall a number of stories one in particular in which the messenger makes an error and God corrects him on it (cant remember where exactly but I will find it). He cannot be perfect AND human at the same time otherwise your contradicting yourself especially when you consider the fact that Islam rejects the notion of Jesus Christ being the living embodiment of God on earth, as sinless and divine yet still mortal? That smacks of double standards.

 

[aamirsaab]

Hold on a minute. Since when has it ever been confirmed the messenger was perfect? Although I never recall him making grievous sins as that wouldn't make sense for God to choose him, I do recall a number of stories one in particular in which the messenger makes an error and God corrects him on it (cant remember where exactly but I will find it). He cannot be perfect AND human at the same time otherwise your contradicting yourself especially when you consider the fact that Islam rejects the notion of Jesus Christ being the living embodiment of God on earth, as sinless and divine yet still mortal? That smacks of double standards.

We regard him as a perfect example of what a muslim should be. He is the role model so to speak. We also dearly respect Christ, but we do not believe in the Divinity of Christ as Christians do.

 

[Spartan]

We regard him as a perfect example of what a muslim should be. He is the role model so to speak. We also dearly respect Christ, but we do not believe in the Divinity of Christ as Christians do.

Ah I see. My apologies then, I thought you were claiming the messenger to be a literally perfect entity i.e godlike. I misunderstood. :statisfie

 

[- Qatada -]

Hi Spartan.


Let's look at the Qur'an:

By the Star when it goes down,-

Your companion (Muhammad, peace be upon him) has neither gone astray nor has erred.

Nor does he speak of (his own) desire.

It is only an Inspiration that is inspired.


[Qur'an Al-Najm (the Star) 53: 1-3]


​

Anything which can be authentically linked to Muhammad (peace be upon him) in matters of religion is therefore a form of inspiration, i.e. revelation. And that is Qur'an proving that for you.


We know that the ahadith weren't written 200years after Muhammad (peace be upon him), rather they were written by his companions also.

One of the Ansaar (The Helpers) asked the Prophet if there was another way to preserve ahadeeth as he sometimes forgets them. The Prophet replied:

Seek help from your right hand, and pointed out to a writing. (Tirmidhi)
​

Raafi ibn Khadij (May Allaah be pleased with him) said:

I said to the Prophet that we hear from you many things, should we write them down?” He replied: You may write. There is no harm. (Tadreeb ar Raawi)
​

Anas (may Allaah be pleased with him) narrates that the Prophet said:

Preserve knowledge by writing. (At-Tabari Jaami ul Bayaan)
​

Abu Raafi (may Allaah be pleased with him) sought permission from the Prophet to write ahadeeth and the Prophet granted him that permission (Tirmidhi)
​

Salma (student of Ibn Abbaas) says:

I saw some small wooden boards with Abdullaah Ibn Abbaas. He was writing on them some reports of the acts of the Prophet which he acquired from Abu Raafi’. (Tabaqaat Ibn Sa’d)
​

Abdullaah ibn Amr ibn al-Aas (May Allaah be pleased with him) reports that the Prophet said to him:

Preserve Knowledge
​

Abdullaah then asked,

how should it be preserved?
​

The Prophet replied,

by writing it.
(Mustadrik Haakim; Jaami ul Bayaan)
​

In another report, he says,

I came to the Prophet and told him, I want to narrate your ahadeeth. So, I want to take assistance of my handwriting besides my heart. Do you deem it fit for me?’
​

The Prophet replied,

If it is my hadeeth you may seek help from your hand besides your heart. (Daarimi)
​

He also says:

I used to write whatever I heard from the Prophet and wanted to learn it by heart. Some people of the Quraysh dissuaded me and said,
Do you write everything you hear from the Prophet, while he is a human being and sometimes he may be in anger as any other human beings may be? (Abu Dawood)
​

After Abdullaah ibn Amr conveyed their opinion to the Prophet, the Prophet replied by pointing to his lips and said: I swear by the One in whose hands is the soul of Muhammad: nothing comes out from these two (lips) except truth(haqq). So, do write. (Abu Dawood; Tabaqaat ibn Sa’d; Mustadrik ul Haakim)


[MORE PROOFS]



​

Thirdly, we know there are many things which WERE NOT mentioned in the Qur'an, yet Allaah is pleased with Muhammad (peace be upon him's) decision. Which is proof that there are other forms of revelation instead of just Qur'an for His Messenger.


I'll give you an example:

Here is proof of the Prophet's (peace be upon him) independent capacity of religious directives:

48:18 Indeed, Allah was pleased with the believers when they gave their Bai'a (pledge) to you (O Muhammad SAW) under the tree, He knew what was in their hearts, and He sent down As-Sakinah (calmness and tranquillity) upon them, and He rewarded them with a near victory,

Here the pledge that the Muslims gave the Prophet (peace be upon him) at hudaybiyyah is being praised in the Qur'an, yet not directive exists in the Qur'an to take such a pledge on this occasion. When the Prophet (peace be upon him) recieved news that 'Uthman rd may have been killed by the Quraysh he decided to take this pledge from the muslims, and yet he made this decision and the surah about Hudaybiyyah (Fath) was revealed after.


​

There is no other proof from Qur'an which states that he should have took the pledge, which shows that Muhammad (peace be upon him) had the authority to make the decisions, and if he erred, Allaah would correct him. Whether it was through Qur'an, or simply through Angel Jibreel [Gabriel.]


Hassaan ibn Atiyyah said,

Jibreel used to descend upon the Messenger of Allaah with the Sunnah just as he used to descend with the Qur’aan.
Reported in Ash-Sharh wal-Ibaanah of Ibn Battah, p. and Majmoo’ul-Fataawaa of Shaikhul-Islaam Ibn Taymiyyah, 3/366.


​

This is proof that Muhammad (peace be upon him) is an authority in the religion even when he doesn't quote Qur'an. Since he is the Messenger, so he conveys the message totally whether it's through Qur'an or Sunnah.

Sahih Al Bukhari Volume 1, Book 1, Number 2:

Narrated 'Aisha:

(the mother of the faithful believers) Al-Harith bin Hisham asked Allah's Apostle "O Allah's Apostle! How is the Divine Inspiration revealed to you?" Allah's Apostle replied, "Sometimes it is (revealed) like the ringing of a bell, this form of Inspiration is the hardest of all and then this state passes ' off after I have grasped what is inspired. Sometimes the Angel comes in the form of a man and talks to me and I grasp whatever he says."

'Aisha added: Verily I saw the Prophet being inspired Divinely on a very cold day and noticed the Sweat dropping from his forehead (as the Inspiration was over).


​

Since He is the Messenger, if he was to make any errors - Allaah would correct him. If Allaah was pleased with his decision, then he wouldn't correct him and therefore that would be a form of law for us in religious matters. He would recieve the revelation from Qur'an or through Angel Jibreel (Gabriel) - so whatever the revelation, it is a source of law. Therefore we accept it.

It is not fitting for a Believer, man or woman, when a matter has been decided by Allah and His Messenger to have any option about their decision: if any one disobeys Allah and His Messenger, he is indeed on a clearly wrong Path. [Qur'an Surah Ahzaab 33: 36]


​

Allaah is showing in that verse that when Allaah AND His Messenger decide on a matter, it is our duty to follow them. Allaah could have said that we follow Allaah only, since everyone who believes knows that the Qur'an is the word of Allaah, so there wouldn't really need to be a mention of the Messenger. However, we know that what the Messenger explains in religious matters is also a form of law.


If that isn't still enough, this is more proof from Qur'an:

Allaah (Exalted is He) mentions the Hikmaah in several ayaat:

Allaah has surely blessed the believers with His favor when He raised in their midst a Messenger from among themselves, who recites to them His verses and makes them pure and teaches them the Book and the Wisdom, while they were, earlier in open error. (Soorah Al-Baqaraa:164)
​

He (Allaah) is the One who raised up, among the unlettered, a Messenger from among themselves who recites the verses of Allaah, and makes them pure, and teaches them the Book and the Wisdom. (Soorah al-Joomooa:2)

​

Here Hikmaah is followed straight after the mentioning of Kitaab (Book). According to the Quraniyyah, it should read as:

He (Allaah) is the One who raised up, among the unlettered, a Messenger from among themselves who recites the verses of Allaah, and makes them pure, and teaches them the Book (Qur'aan) and the Wisdom (Qur'aan) (Soorah al-Joomooa:2)

​

This is grammatically incorrect since according to the Qur'aanic principle of mooghayaraa (differentiation), coupled words do not mean the same thing and indeed the Glorious Qur’aan is far above such mistakes.

Allaah (Exalted is He) says: Do they not then consider the Qur'aan carefully? Had it been from other than Allaah, they would surely have found therein much contradiction. (Soorah An Nisaa: 82)


You can check this link for more authentic info and proofs:
http://www.load-islam.com/artical_det.php?artical_id=434&section=indepth&subsection=Hadeeth



And Allaah Almighty knows best.



​

Peace.

 

[Spartan]

Originally Posted by Fi_Sabilillah
"One of the Ansaar (The Helpers) asked the Prophet if there was another way to preserve ahadeeth as he sometimes forgets them. The Prophet replied:
Seek help from your right hand, and pointed out to a writing. (Tirmidhi)

Raafi ibn Khadij (May Allaah be pleased with him) said:
I said to the Prophet that we hear from you many things, should we write them down?” He replied: You may write. There is no harm. (Tadreeb ar Raawi)

Anas (may Allaah be pleased with him) narrates that the Prophet said:
Preserve knowledge by writing. (At-Tabari Jaami ul Bayaan)

Abu Raafi (may Allaah be pleased with him) sought permission from the Prophet to write ahadeeth and the Prophet granted him that permission (Tirmidhi)

Salma (student of Ibn Abbaas) says:
I saw some small wooden boards with Abdullaah Ibn Abbaas. He was writing on them some reports of the acts of the Prophet which he acquired from Abu Raafi’. (Tabaqaat Ibn Sa’d)

Abdullaah ibn Amr ibn al-Aas (May Allaah be pleased with him) reports that the Prophet said to him:
Preserve Knowledge

Abdullaah then asked,
how should it be preserved?

The Prophet replied,
by writing it.
(Mustadrik Haakim; Jaami ul Bayaan)

In another report, he says,
I came to the Prophet and told him, I want to narrate your ahadeeth. So, I want to take assistance of my handwriting besides my heart. Do you deem it fit for me?’

The Prophet replied,
If it is my hadeeth you may seek help from your hand besides your heart. (Daarimi)"


Yet there are numerous quotes which refute this.

The farewell Pilgrimage of the Prophet Muhammed is a corner stone in the Muslim history. The Final Sermon given by the Prophet during this pilgrimage was witnessed by thousands of Muslims. There are however THREE versions of this sermon in the Hadiths books. This by itself reflects the degree of fallibility of the Hadiths books as this is the most witnessed speech of the prophet Muhammed.

1- First version, " I left for you what if you hold up to, you will never be misguided, the book of God and my Family. Muslim 44/4, Nu2408; Ibn Hanbal
4/366; darimi 23/1, nu 3319.

This is the version written by the Shiites.
2-Second version, "I left for you what if you hold up to, you will never be misguided, the book of God and my Sunnah" . Muwatta, 46/3

This is the version written by the Sunni's.
3- Third version, "I left for you what if you hold up to, you will never be misguided, the BOOK OF GOD." Muslim 15/19, nu 1218; Ibn Majah 25/84, Abu dawud 11/56.

And ONLY the book of God. This is the only version that agrees with the repeated assertion in the Quran that Muhammed's message is ONLY the QURAN.




1 From Ibn Hanbal;
Zayd Ibn Thabit (The Prophet's closest revelation writer) visited the Khalifa Mu'aawiyah (more than 30 years after the Prophet's death), and told him a story about the Prophet. Mu'aawiyah liked the story and ordered someone to write it down. But Zayd said. " the messenger of God ordered us NEVER to write anything of his hadith.

2. "Taq-yeed Al-Ilm", Abu Hurayra said, the messenger of God was informed that some people are writing his hadiths. He took to the pulpit of the mosque and said, "What are these books that I heard you wrote? I am just a human being. Anyone who has any of these writings should bring it here. Abu Hurayra said we collected all these and burned them in fire.

3. "Ulum Al-Hadith" by Ibn Al-Salah, reports a hadith by Abu Hurayra in which Abu Hurayra said the messenger of God came out to us while we were writing his hadiths and said; "What are you writing?" We said, "Hadiths that we hear from you, messenger of God." He said, "A book other than the book of God ?!" We said, "Should we talk about you?" He said, Talk about me, that would be fine, but those who will lie will go to Hell. Abu Hurayra said, we collected what we wrote of Hadiths and burned them in fire.

4. "Taq-yeed Al-Ilm", Abu Hurayra said, the messenger of God was informed that some people are writing his hadiths. He took to the pulpit of the mosque and said, "What are these books that I heard you wrote? I am just a human being. Anyone who has any of these writings should bring it here. Abu Hurayra said we collected all these and burned them in fire.

5. "Taq-yeed Al-Ilm", Abu Saeed Al-Khudry said, " I asked the messenger of God a permission to write his hadiths, but he refused to give me a permission."

6. Ibn Hanbal in his Musnad book, narrates a hadith in which Abdullah Ibn Omar said, "the messenger of God one day came out to us as if he was going to depart us soon and said, "When I depart you (die), hold to the book of God, prohibit what it prohibits and accept as halal what it makes halal."

7. Ali Ibn Abu Talib, the fourth Khalifa in one of his speeches said, "I urge all those who have writing taken from the messenger of God to go home and erase it. The people before you were annihilated because they followed the Hadiths of their scholars and left the book of their Lord." (Sunan Al-Daramy)

8. Ibn Saeed Al-Khudry reported that the messenger of God had said,
"Do not write anything from me EXCEPT QURAN. Anyone who wrote anything other than the Quran shall erase it."

Originally posted by Fi_Sabilillah
"Anything which can be authentically linked to Muhammad (peace be upon him) in matters of religion is therefore a form of inspiration, i.e. revelation. And that is Qur'an proving that for you."

How can anyone claim the Hadith are authentic and valid in the first place if they are largely inconsistant?
Observe the following:

How many times must ablution be performed

http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/fundamentals/hadithsunnah/bukhari/
Bukhari Volume 1, Book 4, Number 159:
Narrated Ibn 'Abbas:
The Prophet performed ablution by washing the body parts only once.
__________________
Bukhari Volume 1, Book 4, Number 160:
Narrated 'Abdullah bin Zaid:
The Prophet performed ablution by washing the body parts twice.
___________________
Bukhari Volume 1, Book 4, Number 196:
Narrated 'Abdullah bin Zaid:
Once Allah's disciple came to us and we brought out water for him in a brass pot. He performed ablution thus: He washed his face thrice, and his forearms to the elbows twice, then passed his wet hands lightly over the head from front to rear and brought them to front again and washed his feet (up to the ankles).
___________________


On the word "Sahaba".

In general the Muslim scholars disagreed on the definition of : who should be counted as one of the Sahaba
(1) The definition of Imam Al-Bukhary : Bukhary defined the Sahaby (single of Sahaba) as the one who was in the company of the prophet Muhammed or just SEEN him. Ibn Hanbal who also has a book of his own collecting more Hadiths than Bukhary accepted this definition and clarified it by saying ; "The Sahaby is anyone who accompanied the Prophet for a year, a month, a day or even an hour or even just seen him."
(2) The definition by Abdullah Ibn Omar Ibn Al-Khattab " anyone who has seen the Prophet Muhammed even for one hour as long as he reached the puberty, and is a known Muslim who understood his religion and accepted it."
According to this definition all the children (who had not reached puberty) who witnessed the Prophet cannot be counted as Sahaba.
(3)The definition of Al-Tabaey Saeed Ibn Al-Museeb; "Only those who accompanied the Prophet Muhammed for a year or two and fought with him in a battle or two should be considered Sahaba" This is a definition accepted and encouraged by Imam Al-Ghazali
This is but 2 inconsistancies between scholars there are of course more. It is impossible for these scholars to claim they have meticulously and thoroughly researched the accuracy of their Hadith if they contradict one another.



Originally posted by Fi_Sabilillah
The above verses clearly describe the process of revelation to Muhammad. They refer to a specially inspired state, not to the ordinary state of Muhammad's human existence. Apart from the fact that the verses themselves make this clear, this is the interpretation given by all authorities. Thus, the later extremely subjective meaning given to these verses to conform to the Traditionists' theory, as exemplified by Fazlul Karim, must be rejected.

Let's look at the Qur'an:

By the Star when it goes down,-

Your companion (Muhammad, peace be upon him) has neither gone astray nor has erred.

Nor does he speak of (his own) desire.

It is only an Inspiration that is inspired.


[Qur'an Al-Najm (the Star) 53: 1-3]

The above verse is supposed to describe the process of revelation to Muhammad. They refer to a specially inspired state, not to the ordinary state of Muhammad's human existence. Apart from the fact that the verses themselves make this clear, this is the interpretation given by all authorities. Thus, the later extremely subjective meaning given to this verse to conform to the mainstream theory, as exemplified by Fazlul Karim, should be rejected.

Originally posted by Fi_Sabilillah
Since He is the Messenger, if he was to make any errors - Allaah would correct him. If Allaah was pleased with his decision, then he wouldn't correct him and therefore that would be a form of law for us in religious matters. He would recieve the revelation from Qur'an or through Angel Jibreel (Gabriel) - so whatever the revelation, it is a source of law. Therefore we accept it.


It is not fitting for a Believer, man or woman, when a matter has been decided by Allah and His Messenger to have any option about their decision: if any one disobeys Allah and His Messenger, he is indeed on a clearly wrong Path. [Qur'an Surah Ahzaab 33: 36]


Allaah is showing in that verse that when Allaah AND His Messenger decide on a matter, it is our duty to follow them. Allaah could have said that we follow Allaah only, since everyone who believes knows that the Qur'an is the word of Allaah, so there wouldn't really need to be a mention of the Messenger. However, we know that what the Messenger explains in religious matters is also a form of law.


If that isn't still enough, this is more proof from Qur'an:

Allaah (Exalted is He) mentions the Hikmaah in several ayaat:
Allaah has surely blessed the believers with His favor when He raised in their midst a Messenger from among themselves, who recites to them His verses and makes them pure and teaches them the Book and the Wisdom, while they were, earlier in open error. (Soorah Al-Baqaraa:164)
He (Allaah) is the One who raised up, among the unlettered, a Messenger from among themselves who recites the verses of Allaah, and makes them pure, and teaches them the Book and the Wisdom. (Soorah al-Joomooa:2)

Here Hikmaah is followed straight after the mentioning of Kitaab (Book). According to the Quraniyyah, it should read as:

He (Allaah) is the One who raised up, among the unlettered, a Messenger from among themselves who recites the verses of Allaah, and makes them pure, and teaches them the Book (Qur'aan) and the Wisdom (Qur'aan) (Soorah al-Joomooa:2)

This is grammatically incorrect since according to the Qur'aanic principle of mooghayaraa (differentiation), coupled words do not mean the same thing and indeed the Glorious Qur’aan is far above such mistakes.

Allaah (Exalted is He) says: Do they not then consider the Qur'aan carefully? Had it been from other than Allaah, they would surely have found therein much contradiction. (Soorah An Nisaa: 82)


You can check this link for more authentic info and proofs:
http://www.load-islam.com/artical_de...ection=Hadeeth



And Allaah Almighty knows best.


"Wisdom" as you have highlighted should not be distinct from the Quran however. I.e the wisdom of the Messenger. Chapter 17, Bani-Isra'eel, verse 39 proves this: "This is part of the wisdom revealed to you by your Lord. You shall not set up with God another God, lest you be thrown into Hell, blamed and defeated." What else besides the Qur'an did God reveal to His Messenger? Nothing more. Note also that this verse warns Muhammad against idolatory, further proof that he was a human being capable of the worst of offences. it is obvious that it refers to the teachings of the Quran, or to general wisdom that all prophet-messengers or moral teachers were endowed with, where the word `wisdom' refers to some thirteen ethical teachings enumerated in verses 22 to 38. These teachings are the worship of God alone. Moreover, God Himself refers to the Qur'an as "Hakeem" (endowed with wisdom). Upon looking at

chapter 10, Yunus, verse 1, "A. L. R. These are the proofs of this Book of wisdom";

chapter 31, Luqman, verse 1 and 2, "(1)A. L. M. (2)These are the proofs of this Book endowed with wisdom"

chapter 36, Ya Seen, verse 1 and 2, "(1) Y. S. (2) And the Qur'an endowed with wisdom."

Why God would send down the scripture devoid of wisdom - and yet He, in His wisdom, describes it as 'hakeem' - and then proceed to send down the wisdom separately, is hard to comprehend.

In chapter 43, Az-Zukhruf, verse 4, God states "And It is preserved at Us in the original, exalted and endowed with wisdom." Any further argument to the effect that the wisdom is separate from the Qur'an would defy logic.

 

[- Qatada -]

Spartan, i never knew you were such a great scholar.


Do you interpret the Qur'an according to your own will? Yet you've just read a few verses from the Qur'an here and there? And these, only in the english language?

http://www.islamicboard.com/742582-post20.html


Don't you know that there are ahadith which are narrated by the companions, one companion might say the Prophet (peace be upon him) performed ablution by washing himself once, other times thrice. How can there be a contradiction if they are taking place in different situations?


And it's quite ironic since you removed some of the hadith, the hadith is as follows:


The Messenger of Allaah (peace be upon him) said:

"I left upon you two things of which you will never go astray after them: The Book of Allaah and my Sunnah. They will never be separated until they return to me at the Haud (the Pond)."

[Saheeh Al Jaami']



I think you either forgot that part, or you purposelly removed it. It's also ironic how you ignore my posts which mention how the Hikmah [wisdom] mentioned in the Qur'an is the Sunnah, and if it isn't - then you're implying that there are contradictions in the Qur'an.


And if other narrations add on, maybe one companion heard and memorised more from that speech than the other did?



I think i'll let you read this thread on the topic since brother Ansar has made it clear why the Sunnah is required, and that you're not the only person to start an issue like this:

http://www.islamicboard.com/islamic...-do-some-people-completely-reject-hadith.html



Regards.

 

[Spartan]

Spartan, i never knew you were such a great scholar.


Do you interpret the Qur'an according to your own will? Yet you've just read a few verses from the Qur'an here and there? And these, only in the english language?

http://www.islamicboard.com/742582-post20.html


Don't you know that there are ahadith which are narrated by the companions, one companion might say the Prophet (peace be upon him) performed ablution by washing himself once, other times thrice. How can there be a contradiction if they are taking place in different situations?


And it's quite ironic since you removed some of the hadith, the hadith is as follows:


The Messenger of Allaah (peace be upon him) said:

"I left upon you two things of which you will never go astray after them: The Book of Allaah and my Sunnah. They will never be separated until they return to me at the Haud (the Pond)."

[Saheeh Al Jaami']



I think you either forgot that part, or you purposelly removed it. It's also ironic how you ignore my posts which mention how the Hikmah [wisdom] mentioned in the Qur'an is the Sunnah, and if it isn't - then you're implying that there are contradictions in the Qur'an.


And if other narrations add on, maybe one companion heard and memorised more from that speech than the other did?



I think i'll let you read this thread on the topic since brother Ansar has made it clear why the Sunnah is required, and that you're not the only person to start an issue like this:

http://www.islamicboard.com/islamic...-do-some-people-completely-reject-hadith.html



Regards.

Maybe thats because I read texts OTHER than the Quran and Hadith, there are other books which give detailed traditionalist AND alternative explanations you know. Or do you prefer to stick with reading what gives you assurance and comfort? I understand many of the mainstream ideas behind Islam, from Imams speaking to me about the Quran itself to actual texts both western and eastern, however there are those that seem to provide a valid alternative explanation of Islam and the Quran and I am exploring this, some points I agree with and some I don't. Do you have a problem with me challenging you on this?

Tell me how their situation is different then? Thats a cop-out. If the Quran called for a certain number of times to perform ablution why should that be changed for a particular circumstance and if it DOES change how does that make it any easier for a person to understand just how many times ablution should be performed in the first place? That is like saying you can perform Salat 5 times a day at one particular time of the year but only 2 at another. Iv'e never heard of such an act ever taking place in regular Muslim life. Tell me what specific event these Hadith took place in that could have possibly made them ALL valid not contradictory?

Fi_Sabilillah
I think you either forgot that part, or you purposelly removed it. It's also ironic how you ignore my posts which mention how the Hikmah [wisdom] mentioned in the Qur'an is the Sunnah, and if it isn't - then you're implying that there are contradictions in the Qur'an.

Actually there are claims that "Hikmah" is not in fact referred to as the Sunnah and I already mentioned why this was the case earlier.

The famous classical jurist, Imam Shafi`i, basically the creator of the theory of classical jurisprudence, interpreted the Arabic word hikmah as meaning `sunna' or `hadith.' In his major work, al-Risala, he stated:
"So, God mentions His scripture, that is the Quran, and wisdom, and I have heard from those who are knowledgeable in the Quran — those whom I agree with — say that wisdom is the traditions of the Prophet. This is the same as the Word [of God Himself]; but God knows better! Because the Quran is mentioned, followed by Wisdom; then God mentions His blessing to mankind by teaching the Quran and wisdom. So, it is not possible that wisdom means other things than the traditions of the Prophet "

Imam Shafi did not produce any support from the Quran for such an interpretation. He merely reported the view of "experts" whom he concurred with. Who these "experts" were and what their reasons for advancing such a view Shafi`i did not say.


B]Fi_Sabilillah
Anything which can be authentically linked to Muhammad (peace be upon him) in matters of religion is therefore a form of inspiration, i.e. revelation. And that is Qur'an proving that for you.

Show me were this is evident in the Quran? Let me guess..."Our Lord, and raise among them a messenger who would recite for them Your revelations and teach them the scripture and wisdom and sanctify them. (5)
Your friend is neither astray, nor a liar. He does not speak on his own. This is a divine inspiration. (6)" Am I right? As I said before Imam Shafi`interpreted the Arabic word hikmah in these above verses and in similar verses as meaning `sunna' or `hadith.' But only by people HE deemed to be experts, not from any verse in the Quran and for reasons unknown.


Would you like to quote me a Surah which confirms that the term Hikmah is the literal term for the messengers Sunnah and Hadith?? I don't imply the Quran to be a contradiction. I imply the writers of Hadith and Sunnah MAY be false in their convictions of what the prophet really said and did. My quarrel has never been with the Quran only the people who use Quranic verse to back up the claim that it is ok to write Hadith on the Prophets life and I have backed that conviction up. I have backed up the my claim that there are numerous verses which say the opposite to what you have said and yet you cannot challenge them. Perhaps it is you who needs a greater variety of reading material?

 

[- Qatada -]

Okay spartan, lets use your logic


As to the thief, Male or female, cut off his or her hands: a punishment by way of example, from Allah, for their crime: and Allah is Exalted in power. [Qur'an 5: 38]


If someone steals a grain of rice, should there hand be chopped off? Evidence from Qur'an please.


Also, please can you give me the answers to the questions on EXACTLY how to pray Salaah (how many raka'ahs to pray, what to recite in prayer etc), how much i have to pay in Zakaah of my wealth. What is required to be performed within the pilgrimage of Hajj.

All from Qur'an please.



Thanks in advance.

 

[Umar001]

I understand that but what it all boiled down to was that it relied on the truth, honesty and sincerity of a large number of people over hundreds of years as opposed to a single man chosen by God.

Just wondering, how do you think the Qu'ran is with us?

If this is true then why is it stated in the Quran several times, "The sole function of the messenger is to deliver the message." It should be noted that the Quran uses the word `messenger' and not `Muhammad'. The obedience therefore should be to the messenger, i.e to the message that he brought from God. In other words God and messenger in this context constitute one concept which should not be separated.

You are acting as if the two views are contradictory, explaning the message is part of the messenger's job which is what I quoted to you, how does this then contradict with him being only a messenger.

I think this comes from your misunderstanding of the text, what you are implying is that since the Qur'an says Muhammad is only a messenger then how can I hold him to be something other, 1. I dont part of his job as a messenger is to tell us all the message, it is illogical God would send a book and not explain it to us.

Number 2. is that the verses which you read about Muhammad being only a messenger are speaking in what context? Please read them, for example, it says that Muhammad is only a messenger who will die like all humans, i.e. he is not God, or for example here:

So remind them (O Muhammad (Peace be upon him)), you are only a one who reminds. (Al-Ghashiyah 88:21)

You are not a dictator over them. (Al-Ghashiyah 88:22)​

So this is again showing that when Muhammad is told remind them, show them the message, then Muhammad is told YOU ARE NOT A DICTATOR, so we see what it means here, when the Qur'an says Muhammad is only a messenger it is clear, it is not for Muhammd to force people but rather for him to deliver the message, this does not contradict the view that he explains it, as in reality his explanation is from God.

The second idea that obedience to the messenger requires upholding the hadith is also rejected in the Quran. As I wrote earlier Did the messenger not pronounce an act outside the Quran? He did, as the leader of his Muslim comminuty and as an ordinary human.

In this case, the Quran, regarding leadership and obedience in verse 4:59 applies: "that the people are duty-bound to obey their rightful leader or leaders in so far as he or they do not trespass the bounds of God." It can therefore be reasonable to say that the messenger, the leader and the man, would not have said or done anything contrary to the divine message he brought, after he knew the message. Therefore, the truly genuine hadith can only be the ones that do not contradict the Quran. Certain decisions he made as leader of his Muslim community that scholars have recorded must show this. The Medina Charter is a good example of this. Although the principles of religious freedom, inter-communal equality and unity, local autonomy and government underlying the charter conform to the teachings of the Quran, the forms they took were conditioned by the circumstances at that particular time in history. In the same way, his decisions on other matters concerning methods that the Quran, for obvious reasons, does not stipulate were determined by certain points and circumstances in history and do not bind the Muslims after him. History shows that this was the exact attitude of the four caliphs, To put simply the messenger acted outside of the Quran where necessary UNLESS they broke the very laws he was given, however he did not break the laws of the Quran and the circumstances prevailing at the time and indeed any other point in history did not require the Muslims to follow both the Quran and the messengers every action as though they were one but rather every action of the Quran and "THOSE IN AUTHORITY AMONG YOU" as stated in 4:59. In other words the lawmakers at the time of the messenger.

You have quoted the verses which is actually a proof against the view you are potraying. Before I show how I would like to clear something;

The Prophet did not do acts just of his own accord when it came to the religion, this is what you keep missing, he didnt just sign treatys when he wanted and so forth, rather he posed as a representative of God, God was guiding him. What you fail to understand though is "the forms they took were conditioned by the circumstances at that particular time in history." That although the form were undertaken under historical times and so forth the foundantions are still there, what the Prophet said we should not do is still here, and what he said we should do is still here, now the point as to whether it was a cultural thing or a matter which could change is something the Shari'a has spoken of, this is what you do not see, the foundamentals of the shari'ah have spoken on this, so in cultural things and things not part of the religion there is flexability, but in things which are of the religion, matters reccomended by him or matters prohibited by him then we follow him.

You also say: "Therefore, the truly genuine hadith can only be the ones that do not contradict the Quran."

Which is one of the catagories for a hadith to be true, a hadith cannot contradict Qur'an this is one of the tests, i.e. not contradicting something stronger than it. But that is a detailed matter to speak of.

Coming onto the verse,

Quoting from The Authority And Importance of The Sunnah;

"O you who believe, obey Allah and obey the Messenger and those in authority among you. And if you are in dispute over any matter, refer it to Allah and His Messenger if you are actually believers in Allah and the Last Day. That is better for you and more seemly in the end" (al-Nisaa 59). Many important points may be deduced from this one verse of then Quran. First, it must be noted that Allah explicitly uses the command "to obey" (Ar., ateeu) not only for Himself but also for the Messenger (peace be upon him), that is, "obey Allah and obey the Messenger." (The same verb or command does not directly precede "those in authority among you."1) This establishes the Messenger of Allah (peace be upon him) as an independent object of obedience while the obedience to anyone else is conditional upon consistency with the Quran or sunnah.


1. Of course, this is not proper according to English syntax which requires that the items in the position following obey be the objects of obey. But in Arabic, such a construction can be done to emphasize the obedience of those stated directly after the command.​

Pretty clear, obey Allah and OBEY His Messeger and those of you who are in authority.

He is representative of what God asks of us and yes he prayed the way God told him to pray, which is evident in the Quran. The Quran does actually mention how to pray for example, I do not believe you need the Hadith to explain it:

normal ablution (5:6)
the abnormal ablution (4:43)
the proper dress (7:31)
standing and facing the qiblah (2:144)
the times (11:114, 17:78, 24:58, 2:238, 30:17-18 and 20:130)
the bowing and prostrating (2:43,125,3:42, 22:77, 48:29)
using moderate voice when saying prayers (17:110)
not calling anyone else besides God in prayer (72:18)
modified mode of prayer at unusual times (4:101,103)
It is quite obvious that many important details regarding the mode of prayer are given in the Quran.

So do you think Allah told or guided Muhammad how to pray or that Muhammad just read the Quran and prayed?

If you say he just read the Qu'ran and prayed, then why do Muslims have recitation outloud in 3 prayers and quiet in 2? Also, did Muhammad read any Qur'an if so where is that said, it claims invoke but not recite Qur'an. I'd like to build a mental picture, so a person gets up, washes, takes an adornment, well sisters are told not to show their 'adornments' is that the same thing? Anyhow, so they wear something, do they have parts to cover? Anyhow, they then face the Kaba they bow and postrate, how many times? And what constitue bowing? Is it postration like some catholics:

Again I ask why is the Hadith necessary when all this is self explanatory? The Quran explains itself, if we go by this example at least, it does not need interference from other sources on performing ablution.

Abolution maybe one of the cases where clarification is not needed but there are others, the simple prayer is not fully described, but if you can answer the above there's more.

If you pause for a moment you will also realise that "we" don't learn how to pray from the hadith. "We" learn to do so from parents and teachers who inherit the practice through the generations from the first source.

You see, well, where did the first get it from? The Prophet? And then people pass it on right, that's what you've just said, well this is what a hadith is!! All we do is that just like chinese wisphers someone might lie, so we check who said what, so if you have no problem learning from your parents and so on then why from hadith? I rather learn from a systematically checked method then from chinese whispers, your method is more like chinese whispers than hadith.

It should also be remembered that the Quran repeatedly teaches the people to be concerned with doing good sincerely and not to be concerned with form. It is obvious why this should be so. An obsession with form would defeat the purpose of an action. A good example of this being the Saudi Prince Sultan Salman who accompanied the American space mission, Discovery, in 1985 and who exposed the inability of the traditional Saudi ulama to answer the question of how he should pray in the space shuttle was a good modern illustration of how one may become obsessed with form.

I do not think that your statement is right, you just quoted a long passage describing just how to wash yourself, and thats not conerned with form? Furthermore if your are obejective you will clearly see why, the Qu'ran deals with it, but you saw how many words were used, and how many different ways one can take a word, thus this is exactly why, so that instead of me and you sitting here saying 'which was do we postrate' we have it, the Prophet explained to us how to postrate!! This was his role as messenger, delivering and explaning.

Where does it say in the Quran to follow his Sunnah? The MESSENGERS Sunnah?

And let those who oppose the Messenger's (Muhammad SAW) commandment (i.e. his Sunnah legal ways, orders, acts of worship, statements, etc.) (among the sects) beware, lest some Fitnah (disbelief, trials, afflictions, earthquakes, killing, overpowered by a tyrant, etc.) befall them or a painful torment be inflicted on them. (An-Nur 24:63)​

And whoever contradicts and opposes the Messenger (Muhammad SAW) after the right path has been shown clearly to him, and follows other than the believers' way. We shall keep him in the path he has chosen, and burn him in Hell - what an evil destination. (An-Nisa 4:115)​

I already responded to this statement earlier. The Quran as mentioned previously warned against an obsession on mundane form. There is no best practice for example on correct form when sleeping. Sleeping a certain way because Muhammed slept that way isn't going to make God happy (at least thats what I believe). Legitimate and righteous acts not mundane trivial matters as explained in the Quran are only necessary. If it were necessary to follow every indiscriminate detail of the Prophets life then essentially you may as well throw out the Surah were God basically explains "I have given you eyes ears and a mouth in order to pursue truth and not accept that which is simply presented you. So that you may work things out for yourselves and make decisions for yourself" (This is in my words as I'm still trying to find that particular Surah though I will post it once I have found it) If it were simply a matter of following everything the prophet did that would make following harder not easier.

If I was going to take that verse, i.e. using our eyes ears and mouths in order to pursue truth, work things out for myself, then when the Qur'an says we have int he prophet the best of guidance, then of course I will try to be the best like him. If I go to a gym and I see a big guy and I want to look like him, I am not going to just lift the weights he does, I buy any suppliments he takes and follow his diet, I buy the type of equiptment he has and ask him for tips and when he gives me then I take them. Similarly, if I have the best of guidance, I will take how he was with his wife his children his companions his family, how he lived his life and how he died, how he spoke and how he ate.

But you have to realise, this is within the religion, there are things which we do not have to do maybe because they are cultural or because of the time he lived in, but when it is part of the religion then we follow him if he prayed a certain way then we pray like him because he is the best of guidance.

I have responded to this previously as well. Please provide some kind of evidence for this. Is there a specific Surah as that is a very big sweeping statement to make on the whole of Islam. My thoughts are that the message of Islam is given through the Quran given to mankind by the messenger,nothing more nothing less..

Well do you not accept that Muhammad is the explainer of the Qur'an? And do you not accept that Allah says obey Allah and obey the Messenger as quoted previously?

If it is an inseperable part of Muslim teaching then why the contradiction between Sunnah and Quran, Sunnah and Sunnah (verses) and Sunnah and Hadith?

I don't know what contradictions you are reffering to.

Interestingly the word `sunna' is used in the Quran to refer to the "divine system" or "law" and to the example of the fate suffered by ancient communities. None refers to the behavior of the Prophet. If there are specific Surah that refute this please direct me.

Refute what? The the word Sunnah is not used in context with following the Prophet? There's nothing to refute, because the Qur'an does not use the word sunnah in denoting that the prophet is to be followed doesnt mean he is not, rather, what we do have is many a statements where the Prophet is to be obeyed and followed and that he is the best of guidance and he is told to explain the Qur'an.

The Qur'an testifies to obeyin the Messenger and intelect/logic testifies to it.

Regards,

Eesa.

 

[tears4husain]

bro spartan first and for most what is the back ground behind the ayats that you qoute?See every ayat was revealed at a certain time and place. You have meccan verses and madinan verses. Also the qur'an says to obey Muhammad(s.a.w.) is to obey Allah. The qur'an tells us to pray, but Muhammad(s.a.w.) teaches us how to pray. He is not here today to teach us , but his sunnah is!

 

[vpb]

oh no, here we go again .

I think I know what website spartan has been on. lollllll