This is ridiculous indeed and you deffinitely know better than that. But as it is said: A drowning man will grasp anything to try to come out of the water. As for the Names and Attributes of God, this in no way implies polytheism and by the way a lot of these Names and Attributes are in the bible also. Surely you do not mean that bible also. I thought you was trying to show that bible does not endorse polytheism, by these words do you imply that it does? You know much better than that. These words of yours must have come either in a moment of anger or due to haste as I know that you know much better than that. Indeed in my view you are the one with more knowledge in christianity from all the christians in this forum.
How much Christians know about Bible? What about Muslims?
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This is ridiculous indeed and you deffinitely know better than that. But as it is said: A drowning man will grasp anything to try to come out of the water. As for the Names and Attributes of God, this in no way implies polytheism and by the way a lot of these Names and Attributes are in the bible also. Surely you do not mean that bible also. I thought you was trying to show that bible does not endorse polytheism, by these words do you imply that it does? You know much better than that. These words of yours must have come either in a moment of anger or due to haste as I know that you know much better than that. Indeed in my view you are the one with more knowledge in christianity from all the christians in this forum.
For a start, Grace seeker knows much better than that. Secondly, what we say is: The Christians believe to be monotheists while they are polytheists in our view. So as a Christian, you can believe what you want while as a muslim I view you as polytheists. Just like you view me as a dissbeliever in what you believe. So it is not an insult or anything like that and indeed you do not have to justify to me what you believe but to God when you will stand before Him. I will explain my position in front of God too.
Note that three persons is not correct in Christianity as an expression but you may say three entities instead. Also this is not the same as the case of Names in Islam as they do not imply entities but imply only different Names of one diety. When you say "and", immediately you are out of this context. Not to mention evidence from the bible to this effect. Like I said before: If you choose to say: Listen, according to the bible we believe in, we are monotheists, although you view us as polytheists. Then I say, fine. You will answer for your beliefs when you stand before God, just like I will answer for myself. As for verses about three Gods, even if we brought them you still will say that is figuratively and so on. So of what benefit would that be?! You will never accept your polytheism just like I will not accept your monotheism as you believe now. Even the Jews who believe in the Torah word for word will not believe you. So what is the point to quote verses?! In our view you are a polytheist. We only speak of how we see you. Just like you speak of how you view us.
It is true that we can not say that Paul was the first to imply such as the Romans implied that before him too (at least). So we do not say that Paul started the trinity doctrine. As for the bible, again we say it has truth in it and it contains falsehood also. Not what Jesus said, but the lying pen of the scribes. This is what we believe and to this we testify. It is not what you believe but I guess that is why I am a muslim and you are a christian.
I completely agree. We do not use maths to prove our beliefs.
Like I said before. We say that Christians say they are monotheists while we view them as polytheists.
When we say that you worship three Gods we say it based upon the Quranic verses so we are speaking of our belief not your belief. Just like you try to tell us that what we believe is wrong we do the same. Well, even the fact that you are telling us not to tell you, is proof against what you say.
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Keltoi
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Then why ask questions? If all you are concerned about is stating your beliefs, why bother posing questions in the first place? If you don't care about the answer, what is the point?
First let me remind you that the thread we are posting in is: How much Christians know about Bible? What about Muslims?
It is not: Questions about Christianity, answered by Christians.
Second: We (at least me as you are pointing to my words) did not ask the Christians whether they are monotheists or polytheists.
Final: You are doing the same.
Muslim Woman
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I seek refuge in Allah (The One God) from the Satan (devil) the cursed, the rejected
thanks bro for sharing the link.....very interesting :statisfie
Saint Augustine was a Roman Catholic Bishop who wrote during the third century A.D., explaining the mystery of the Trinity.
It is said that he was troubled by the inexplicability of the concept.
He wrote a book to explain what was the Trinity but the book is more confusing than elucidating.
mg: For he fails to explain very pertinent questions such as how a son can be equal to his father
I saw another interesting article written by our revert bro in that site----
The Gospel of John
http://comparativereligion.islamicresearchfoundation.net/index.php?id=29,117,0,0,1,0
"In the beginning was the word and the word was with God; and the word was God. The same was in the beginning with God; things were made by him, and without him was not anything made that was made."
[John 1:1]
It is alleged that these words were written by a "John", who was a disciple of Prophet Jesus (peace be upon him).
Who was this John?
This article is extracted from the booklet "UBHaqa - The Instrument of Light" by a Former Catholic DAWOOD G. NGWANE who made his transition from Catholicism to Islam in 1995.
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Redeemed
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To you, your religion is right, and to me, it is my relationship not religion.
Redeemed
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You said that the verse I quoted about the Muslim state is not in reference to what I spoke about then what is it speaking of if not respecting non-Muslims. It sounds like you are trying to add insult to injury, but I am not offended, because I know there are Christians that know more than I about the Bible and history maybe even some non-Christians as well. You, however, wouldn't be one of them.
Keltoi
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First let me remind you that the thread we are posting in is: How much Christians know about Bible? What about Muslims?
It is not: Questions about Christianity, answered by Christians.
Second: We (at least me as you are pointing to my words) did not ask the Christians whether they are monotheists or polytheists.
Final: You are doing the same.
I wasn't referring to this thread alone, and to be honest the question was more rhetorical than anything. What turns me off most about this sub-forum, even though I'm addicted to it, is that many seem to feel the need to "prove" another faith wrong. Mainly from Muslims, to be honest about it. I mean, I could go around the forum calling Muslims "disbelievers" and followers of a false prophet, but that isn't in my nature. Plus, it wouldn't accomplish anything but annoying the heck out of people. Of course we are going to disagree, but I have no interest in bad mouthing the Muslim faith, because I am quite secure in my faith.
Just had to rant for a bit. None of this personal to you at all.
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I did start a thread on the Trinity about a week ago, but I guess it didn't get approved.
Gods speed
Grace Seeker
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First let me remind you that the thread we are posting in is: How much Christians know about Bible? What about Muslims?
It is not: Questions about Christianity, answered by Christians.
Second: We (at least me as you are pointing to my words) did not ask the Christians whether they are monotheists or polytheists.
Final: You are doing the same.
So, since this thread is "How much do Christians/Muslims know about the Bible?", let's discuss these issues based on the Bible. And based on the Bible that we have access to, not the one you think was once written, but cannot produce for anyone to actually see what it teaches, but you may use any extant version of the Bible including variant texts if you so desire.
I will accept that you see Christians as polythiests. It sounds like you are willing to accept that Christians see themselves as monotheists. Now, how does the Bible see Christians? I think we are going to end up with different conclusions still, but let us resolve to base those conclusions on what we find in the present (even if corrupted) Bible, not the Qur'an or Hadith and not later writings by early Church fathers like the folks at Nicea.
Grace Seeker
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Keltoi, I'm going to put this out there in the public, not to speak against you, but as a reminder to us all and to do a bit of reflection. I do agree that there are those on these forums that seem to have a need to "prove" things to others. But I don't know that this attitude is dominated by one faith more than others. Yes, you and I run into more with Muslims than with Christians, but I think there are several reasons for this.
1) There simply are more Muslims than Christians or any other faith on this forum. No surpirse there. But if even a small percentage of Muslims have this personality, we are going to encounter if more frequently than the same attitude being expressed by Christians just by the sheer force of aggregate numbers.
2) Given that we are Christians, you and I are going to be more sensitive to Muslim comments and more oblivious to similar worded Christians comments.
3) I'm also on a Catholic Forum, and I find that Catholics there try to "prove" things to Protestants. In fact, I get the feeling there that Catholics hate Protestants, even though in real life I have wonderful relationships with a wide variety of Catholics, including all the Catholic priests and nuns in any community in which I have ever lived. So, it may be a function of the internet that produces these types of conversations.
4) Compared to some of the heat I get from my brothers and sisters in Christ on some predominately Christian forums, the "attacks" here are mild. It seems that the closer two people are to thinking similarly, the more important it is to get the "other" into final and complete agreement. Thus we argue over minutia with great passion, and allow glaring differences to pass with cursory politeness.
OK. End of anti-rant. And meant no more personally than the original rant was.
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Woodrow
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Arguments about religion do tend to become heated. The very nature of what we are debating is of such high importance to each of us, that we view any difference of opinion as a personal attack against that which we hold and cherish.
As Muslims and Christians we probably have it the most difficult as our beliefs are so similar. It is a simple fact of common knowledge that if either of us can prove to the other that our belief is correct, it is a statement that the other is false.
The biggest problem is we have no common basis of reference for out beliefs. Within Christianity there is a certain degree of validity in stating which denomination is correct as all of the denominations are based upon the same scripture, so it is simply a giving of verification as to what the scriptures say.
While with a debate between coming down to the validity of Islam or Christianity it becomes a question of which "Book" is the true scripture. Since we all place our belief to a very large degree in faith, it is nearly impossible to satisfactorily prove to the other that our individual acceptance of what is the "Word of God(swt) is the true word. In essence when I say that the Qur'an is the truth it is a normal connotation for a Christian to hear that as saying the Bible is false and vice versa. The connotation soon falls into the realm of being heard as a statement of "You are a liar." No body wants to be called a liar so the arguments fall into personal clashes rather than an exchange of facts.
It is very difficult for any of us to keep things on the path of trying to offer proof as to why we are correct, without it sounding like a statement of "You are wrong." We all tend to fall into the final argument of saying, "Prove it" Yet we have no common reference of proof.
Face to face debates are much less heated as often the person we debate with is a close friend or acquaintance. Over the internet we tend to loose sight of the other persons sincerity and any knowledge of the person's "goodness" we become very mechanical and try to place it into the realm of debating with a machine and forgetting, that on the other side of the monitor there is a live person who is probably a very decent, good person.
As Muslims and Christians we probably have it the most difficult as our beliefs are so similar. It is a simple fact of common knowledge that if either of us can prove to the other that our belief is correct, it is a statement that the other is false.
The biggest problem is we have no common basis of reference for out beliefs. Within Christianity there is a certain degree of validity in stating which denomination is correct as all of the denominations are based upon the same scripture, so it is simply a giving of verification as to what the scriptures say.
While with a debate between coming down to the validity of Islam or Christianity it becomes a question of which "Book" is the true scripture. Since we all place our belief to a very large degree in faith, it is nearly impossible to satisfactorily prove to the other that our individual acceptance of what is the "Word of God(swt) is the true word. In essence when I say that the Qur'an is the truth it is a normal connotation for a Christian to hear that as saying the Bible is false and vice versa. The connotation soon falls into the realm of being heard as a statement of "You are a liar." No body wants to be called a liar so the arguments fall into personal clashes rather than an exchange of facts.
It is very difficult for any of us to keep things on the path of trying to offer proof as to why we are correct, without it sounding like a statement of "You are wrong." We all tend to fall into the final argument of saying, "Prove it" Yet we have no common reference of proof.
Face to face debates are much less heated as often the person we debate with is a close friend or acquaintance. Over the internet we tend to loose sight of the other persons sincerity and any knowledge of the person's "goodness" we become very mechanical and try to place it into the realm of debating with a machine and forgetting, that on the other side of the monitor there is a live person who is probably a very decent, good person.
Redeemed
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That is true. By the way, I had started a thread a while back on what is the trinity to the the Muslim and and Christian. Do you know what happened to it?
You are right. I over generalized from my limited conversations with only a few Catholics and by from being raised a Baptist and becoming a member of the Church of Christ. I do have a limited perspective and, of course, I don't know what is in other people's heart.
That was a nice video to explain the Christian set of beliefs. In contrast though we believe that Allah is Lord of the universe and Master of the Day of Judgement.
Whatever you might call it.:thumbs_up