"Views on Atonement for Sin."

[Phil12123]

Re: Who is the Trinity to Christians & Muslims?

and concerning women, it's not that women are inferior, it's just that their memory is not the same as the men's memory, and we know this everyday life, usually women are smarter on manipulating, while men are not as good as women, but women forget more than man do. what's wrong with this? both genders have their own problems.

You must not be married. When you are, you will find that women have an astounding capacity to remember things---things you'd rather they forgot.

Ah, the naivete of youth! You will learn. Good luck.

Peace

 

[جوري]

Re: Who is the Trinity to Christians & Muslims?

You must not be married. When you are, you will find that women have an astounding capacity to remember things---things you'd rather they forgot.

Ah, the naivete of youth! You will learn. Good luck.

Peace

For that same reason a two woman witness is called see above verse I have quoted... Just in case there is one who "remembers" things a little "differently" than have actually occurred you know out of spite!

يَا أَيُّهَا الَّذِينَ آمَنُواْ إِذَا تَدَايَنتُم بِدَيْنٍ إِلَى أَجَلٍ مُّسَمًّى فَاكْتُبُوهُ وَلْيَكْتُب بَّيْنَكُمْ كَاتِبٌ بِالْعَدْلِ وَلاَ يَأْبَ كَاتِبٌ أَنْ يَكْتُبَ كَمَا عَلَّمَهُ اللّهُ فَلْيَكْتُبْ وَلْيُمْلِلِ الَّذِي عَلَيْهِ الْحَقُّ وَلْيَتَّقِ اللّهَ رَبَّهُ وَلاَ يَبْخَسْ مِنْهُ شَيْئًا فَإن كَانَ الَّذِي عَلَيْهِ الْحَقُّ سَفِيهًا أَوْ ضَعِيفًا أَوْ لاَ يَسْتَطِيعُ أَن يُمِلَّ هُوَ فَلْيُمْلِلْ وَلِيُّهُ بِالْعَدْلِ وَاسْتَشْهِدُواْ شَهِيدَيْنِ من رِّجَالِكُمْ فَإِن لَّمْ يَكُونَا رَجُلَيْنِ فَرَجُلٌ وَامْرَأَتَانِ مِمَّن تَرْضَوْنَ مِنَ الشُّهَدَاء أَن تَضِلَّ إْحْدَاهُمَا فَتُذَكِّرَ إِحْدَاهُمَا الأُخْرَى وَلاَ يَأْبَ الشُّهَدَاء إِذَا مَا دُعُواْ وَلاَ تَسْأَمُوْاْ أَن تَكْتُبُوْهُ صَغِيرًا أَو كَبِيرًا إِلَى أَجَلِهِ ذَلِكُمْ أَقْسَطُ عِندَ اللّهِ وَأَقْومُ لِلشَّهَادَةِ وَأَدْنَى أَلاَّ تَرْتَابُواْ إِلاَّ أَن تَكُونَ تِجَارَةً حَاضِرَةً تُدِيرُونَهَا بَيْنَكُمْ فَلَيْسَ عَلَيْكُمْ جُنَاحٌ أَلاَّ تَكْتُبُوهَا وَأَشْهِدُوْاْ إِذَا تَبَايَعْتُمْ وَلاَ يُضَآرَّ كَاتِبٌ وَلاَ شَهِيدٌ وَإِن تَفْعَلُواْ فَإِنَّهُ فُسُوقٌ بِكُمْ وَاتَّقُواْ اللّهَ وَيُعَلِّمُكُمُ اللّهُ وَاللّهُ بِكُلِّ شَيْءٍ عَلِيمٌ {282}​

[Pickthal 2:282] O ye who believe! When ye contract a debt for a fixed term, record it in writing. Let a scribe record it in writing between you in (terms of) equity. No scribe should refuse to write as Allah hath taught him, so let him write, and let him who incurreth the debt dictate, and let him observe his duty to Allah his Lord, and diminish naught thereof. But if he who oweth the debt is of low understanding, or weak, or unable himself to dictate, then let the guardian of his interests dictate in (terms of) equity. And call to witness, from among your men, two witnesses. And if two men be not (at hand) then a man and two women, of such as ye approve as witnesses, so that if the one erreth (through forgetfulness) the other will remember. And the witnesses must not refuse when they are summoned. Be not averse to writing down (the contract) whether it be small or great, with (record of) the term thereof. That is more equitable in the sight of Allah and more sure for testimony, and the best way of avoiding doubt between you; save only in the case when it is actual merchandise which ye transfer among yourselves from hand to hand. In that case it is no sin for you if ye write it not. And have witnesses when ye sell one to another, and let no harm be done to scribe or witness. If ye do (harm to them) lo! it is a sin in you. Observe your duty to Allah. Allah is teaching you. And Allah is knower of all things.


again-- nothing in the way of inferiority... these are our divine laws, if you don't like them then stay as you are, no one has forced it on any of you!

peace!

 

[Muslim Woman]

Re: Who is the Trinity to Christians & Muslims?



Salaam/ peace ;

The date is important, as it clearly shows the story was an invention and not a true event.

In truth, only some Christians believe that priests should not have children, and no Christians believe that priests are above having children. The reason that those who do not have children have chosen not to is for other reasons than the story implies.

well , don't know much about date :-[

are u 2 sure that there was no Muslim scholar in Roman period ?

why Priests believe they must not get married & have kids ?

 

[Muslim Woman]

Re: Who is the Trinity to Christians & Muslims?



Salaam/ peace ;

You must not be married. When you are, you will find that women have an astounding capacity to remember things---

haha funny

IN Islam , in some major cases woman's testimony is equal to man. I mentioed it in another thread. This will be off topic here.

So, a quick short (!) ans. If a husband accusses that his wife's character is not good & he does not have any witness , then he will swear upon God.

No punishment will be given to wife if she also swear upon God that She is good. See , man's testimony is not considered as highter than her here.


In financial cases , i guess as it's men's responsiblities to earn & spend for family members & as women are free from this burden & normally don't deal with other people specially with men ...... they may not have the same experties in this area. May be , that's why 2 women are needed in few cases on some practical reasons .

But , in the case of earning rewards for the life hereafter , both men & women are equal ......u may say that women are in advantage position :statisfie .....doing household things , taking care of kids......& they are getting rewards & its not a must for them to go to war field.




Anyway , pl. ask these off topic questions in the related thread . So that we can answer in details.

another verse of the day


God—there is no god but He, the Ever-living, the Self-Subsisting (by whom all subsist).

He has sent down upon you the Book with the Truth

Aal `Imran 3:2-3

 

[Grace Seeker]

Re: Who is the Trinity to Christians & Muslims?

Salaam/ peace ;




well , don't know much about date :-[

are u 2 sure that there was no Muslim scholar in Roman period ?

why Priests believe they must not get married & have kids ?

Rome was fallen 300 years before Muhammad was born. How could their have been a Muslim scholar 300 years before Muhammad?

 

[Woodrow]

Re: Who is the Trinity to Christians & Muslims?

Rome was fallen 300 years before Muhammad was born. How could their have been a Muslim scholar 300 years before Muhammad?

Peace Gene,

I too was wondering about that and then I remembered that after the fall of the Roman Empire you have the rise of the "Holy Roman Empire" Which was the Emporers appointed by the Pope. I believe the story Muslim Woman related took place during that time.

Saxon dynasty
Otto I, 936–73
Otto II, 973–83
Otto III, 983–1002
Henry II, 1002–24

Salian or Franconian dynasty
Conrad II, 1024–39
Henry III, 1039–56
Henry IV, 1056–1105
Henry V, 1105–25
Lothair II, duke of Saxony, 1125–37

Hohenstaufen dynasty and rivals
Conrad III, 1138–52
Frederick I, 1152–90
Henry VI, 1190–97
Philip of Swabia, 1198–1208
antiking: Otto IV (Guelph), 1198–1208
Otto IV (king, 1208–12; emperor, 1209–15), 1208–15
Frederick II (king, 1212–20; emperor, 1220–50), 1212–50
Conrad IV, 1237–54
antiking: Henry Raspe, 1246–47
antiking: William, count of Holland, 1247–56

Interregnum,
1254–73 Richard, earl of Cornwall, and Alfonso X of Castile, rivals

Hapsburg, Luxemburg, and other dynasties
Rudolf I (Hapsburg), 1273–91
Adolf of Nassau, 1292–98
Albert I (Hapsburg), 1298–1308
Henry VII (Luxemburg), 1308–13
Louis IV (Wittelsbach), 1314–46
Charles IV (Luxemburg), 1346–78
Wenceslaus (Luxemburg), 1378–1400
Rupert (Wittelsbach), 1400–1410
Sigismund (Luxemburg), 1410–37

Hapsburg dynasty
Albert II, 1438–39
Frederick III, 1440–93
Maximilian I, 1493–1519
Charles V, 1519–58
Ferdinand I, 1558–64
Maximilian II, 1564–76
Rudolf II, 1576–1612
Matthias, 1612–19
Ferdinand II, 1619–37
Ferdinand III, 1637–57
Leopold I, 1658–1705
Joseph I, 1705–11
Charles VI, 1711–40

Interregnum (1740–42)
and other dynasties Charles VII (Wittelsbach-Hapsburg), 1742–45
Francis I (Lorraine), 1745–65

Hapsburg-Lorraine dynasty
Joseph II, 1765–90
Leopold II, 1790–92
Francis II, 1792–1806

Source: http://www.answers.com/topic/holy-roman-emperor-2



I

 

[Grace Seeker]

Re: Who is the Trinity to Christians & Muslims?

Peace Gene,

I too was wondering about that and then I remembered that after the fall of the Roman Empire you have the rise of the "Holy Roman Empire" Which was the Emporers appointed by the Pope. I believe the story Muslim Woman related took place during that time.

Well, that would resolve one conundrum. (Though Charlemagne might take exception to the idea that anyone appointed him at all.)


As for the moral of the story, I still see someone who just doesn't understand Christian theology.

 

[Woodrow]

Re: Who is the Trinity to Christians & Muslims?

Well, that would resolve one conundrum. (Though Charlemagne might take exception to the idea that anyone appointed him at all.)


As for the moral of the story, I still see someone who just doesn't understand Christian theology.

More of the mystery unfolds.

Al-Baqillani died in 1013. The "Holy Roman Emporers wer all Catholics and their courts and advisors consisted of Catholic Priests and Bishops. The Christians al-baqalini would have debated with would have been Catholic Theologian. this was the major world view of Christianity at that time.

A little more about al-Baqilani.

al-BAQILLANI (i.e. the greengrocer), the qadi Abu Bakr Muhammad b. al-tayyib b.
Muhammad b. Dha'far b. al-qasim, in most of the sources Ibn al-Baqillani, but in popular usage
(and Ibn khallikan) simply al-Baqillani, Ash'ari theologian and Maliki jurisprudent, said to have
been a major factor in the systematising and popularising of Ash'arism.

The date of his birth is unknown. He died on t3 Dhu'l-qa'da 403/5 June 1013. Born in Basra,
he seems to have spent most of his adult like in Baghdad. Visits to Shiraz and the Byzantine court
are mentioned, and for a time he exercised the office of qadi outside the capital. He studied usul
al-din under disciples of al-Ash'ari and is said to have attracted many to his own lectures. Various
anecdotes are related to illustrate his skill in disputation. qadi, writer, disputant, lecturer--these
headings sum up his life as we know it from our rather inadequate sources.

Source: http://www.muslimphilosophy.com/ei2/baqillani.htm

And you are Right about Charlemagne, he did grab the crown and appointed himself.

 

[MustafaMc]

Re: Who is the Trinity to Christians & Muslims?

You just don't get it, do you? But then you are expressing the Muslim view, so I shouldn't expect you to get the Christian view. From all the posts, both Muslim and Christian, we can conclude that there is agreement on some very clear points:

1. We are all sinners, whether daily or hourly, in word, thought, or deed.

2. Heaven is a perfect place where no sin will ever enter.

3. Without forgiveness of sins, no sinner will ever enter Heaven.

4. No sinner can work enough, or do anything, or be "good" enough, to deserve Heaven.

5. Muslims are hoping in their repentance and Allah's mercy to overcome their sin problem and enter Heaven, which they can never be assured of until the Judgment Day.

6. Christians are relying on repentance and faith in Christ's atoning death for sins, and resurrection, as payment in full for all their sins, in order to receive forgiveness and eternal life as a free gift, here and now and forevermore.

7. The view you have expressed represents the Muslim view that Christ did not die on the cross, let alone for anyone's sins. This view is diametrically and irreconcilably opposed to the Christian Gospel that Christ died for our sins and rose again.

8. According to the Christian view, a person who denies the Deity of Christ will die in his sins (John 8:24,58), and be barred from Heaven.

9. According to the Muslim view, believing Christ is God is associating with Allah, the unforgiveable sin that will bar a person from Heaven.

I think that covers points of agreement. Have I left anything out?

Peace

That pretty accurately summarizes my point of view. Point #5 should be expanded slightly.

5. Muslims are hoping in their belief in One God, striving to follow Prophet Muhammad's sunnah (traditions), repentance and Allah's mercy to overcome their sin problem and enter Heaven, which they can never be assured of until the Judgment Day.

 

[Trumble]

Re: Who is the Trinity to Christians & Muslims?

Peace Gene,

I too was wondering about that and then I remembered that after the fall of the Roman Empire you have the rise of the "Holy Roman Empire" Which was the Emporers appointed by the Pope. I believe the story Muslim Woman related took place during that time.

I would have thought it far more likely the 'Roman emperor' concerned was Byzantine. The Empire in the east didn't fall for another millennium.

 

[Muslim Woman]

Re: Who is the Trinity to Christians & Muslims?



Salaam/ peace ;

Rome was fallen 300 years before
Muhammad was born. How could their have been a Muslim scholar 300 years before Muhammad?

yak .... i really have no idea about date....but after reading ur post , i remembered a verse where victory of Roman is mentioned .

It's Sura Rum ( Romans ) -- chapter 30

.....The Romans have been defeated.


3. In the nearer land (Syria, Iraq, Jordan, and Palestine), and they, after their defeat, will be victorious.


4. Within three to nine years. The decision of the matter, before and after (these events) is only with God, (before the defeat of Romans by the Persians, and after, i.e. the defeat of the Persians by the Romans).

And on that Day, the believers (i.e. Muslims) will rejoice (at the victory given by God to the Romans against the Persians),


5. With the help of God, He helps whom He wills, and He is the All-Mighty, the Most Merciful.


6. (It is) a Promise of God (i.e. God will give victory to the Romans against the Persians), and God fails not in His Promise, but most of men know not


http://www.quranm.multicom.ba/translations/Hilali Khan.htm

a related story :......commentary made by Allamah Ahmad Uthmani



On the basis of this prediction, Hadhrat Abu Bakr made a bet with some of the idolaters (betting was not prohibited at that time) that if the Romans did not get victory within nine years, he would give them a hundred camels, otherwise they would give him a certain number of camels.



In the beginning Hadhrat Abu Bakr appointed ‘bidh’a sineen’ (a few more years) as three years from his own opinion. Bur afterwards, at the bidding of the Prophet , the covenant was made on the term of nine years, which is the real application of the word ‘bidha’.


On the other side, the Caesar of the Roman Empire was determined to regain the lost power and vowed that if he defeated the Persians, he would go to ‘Baitul Maqdis’ by foot. Behold the power of Allah!


According to the Quranic prediction, right within nine years, after the passing of one year of Hijrah, on the day of Badr, when the Muslims were rejoicing in the clear victory over the idolaters, by the grace of Allah, became happier with the news that Allah had made the Romans (the people of the book) to prevail over the Persians fire-worshippers.

In this way the idolaters got a double blow of disgrace


http://www.inter-islam.org/Pastevents/FallRome.html

 

[Redeemed]

Re: Who is the Trinity to Christians & Muslims?

Sorry, I didn't mean to ofend you. I will have to pray about how to respond to you.

 

[Muslim Knight]

Re: Who is the Trinity to Christians & Muslims?

Rome was fallen 300 years before Muhammad was born. How could their have been a Muslim scholar 300 years before Muhammad?

The verse mentioned about the Byzantines under Emperor Heraclius. Byzantines inherited so much from Roman Empire. Rum & rumawiyy (Rome & Romans) were how the Arabs back then describe the Byzantines.

 

[vpb]

Re: Who is the Trinity to Christians & Muslims?

The verse mentioned about the Byzantines under Emperor Heraclius. Byzantines inherited so much from Roman Empire. Rum & rumawiyy (Rome & Romans) were how the Arabs back then describe the Byzantines.

just to mention a hadith of the conversation between Heraclius and people of mecca during the beggining of Islam. In case you missed it last page.

Volume 1, Book 1, Number 6: Narrated 'Abdullah bin 'Abbas:
Abu Sufyan bin Harb informed me that Heraclius had sent a messenger to him while he had been accompanying a caravan from Quraish. They were merchants doing business in Sham (Syria, Palestine, Lebanon and Jordan), at the time when Allah's Apostle had truce with Abu Sufyan and Quraish infidels. So Abu Sufyan and his companions went to Heraclius at Ilya (Jerusalem). Heraclius called them in the court and he had all the senior Roman dignitaries around him. He called for his translator who, translating Heraclius's question said to them, "Who amongst you is closely related to that man who claims to be a Prophet?" Abu Sufyan replied, "I am the nearest relative to him (amongst the group)."
Heraclius said, "Bring him (Abu Sufyan) close to me and make his companions stand behind him." Abu Sufyan added, Heraclius told his translator to tell my companions that he wanted to put some questions to me regarding that man (The Prophet) and that if I told a lie they (my companions) should contradict me." Abu Sufyan added, "By Allah! Had I not been afraid of my companions labeling me a liar, I would not have spoken the truth about the Prophet. The first question he asked me about him was:
'What is his family status amongst you?'
I replied, 'He belongs to a good (noble) family amongst us.'
Heraclius further asked, 'Has anybody amongst you ever claimed the same (i.e. to be a Prophet) before him?'
I replied, 'No.'
He said, 'Was anybody amongst his ancestors a king?'
I replied, 'No.'
Heraclius asked, 'Do the nobles or the poor follow him?'
I replied, 'It is the poor who follow him.'
He said, 'Are his followers increasing decreasing (day by day)?'
I replied, 'They are increasing.'
He then asked, 'Does anybody amongst those who embrace his religion become displeased and renounce the religion afterwards?'
I replied, 'No.'
Heraclius said, 'Have you ever accused him of telling lies before his claim (to be a Prophet)?'
I replied, 'No. '
Heraclius said, 'Does he break his promises?'
I replied, 'No. We are at truce with him but we do not know what he will do in it.' I could not find opportunity to say anything against him except that.
Heraclius asked, 'Have you ever had a war with him?'
I replied, 'Yes.'
Then he said, 'What was the outcome of the battles?'
I replied, 'Sometimes he was victorious and sometimes we.'
Heraclius said, 'What does he order you to do?'
I said, 'He tells us to worship Allah and Allah alone and not to worship anything along with Him, and to renounce all that our ancestors had said. He orders us to pray, to speak the truth, to be chaste and to keep good relations with our Kith and kin.'
Heraclius asked the translator to convey to me the following, I asked you about his family and your reply was that he belonged to a very noble family. In fact all the Apostles come from noble families amongst their respective peoples. I questioned you whether anybody else amongst you claimed such a thing, your reply was in the negative. If the answer had been in the affirmative, I would have thought that this man was following the previous man's statement. Then I asked you whether anyone of his ancestors was a king. Your reply was in the negative, and if it had been in the affirmative, I would have thought that this man wanted to take back his ancestral kingdom.
I further asked whether he was ever accused of telling lies before he said what he said, and your reply was in the negative. So I wondered how a person who does not tell a lie about others could ever tell a lie about Allah. I, then asked you whether the rich people followed him or the poor. You replied that it was the poor who followed him. And in fact all the Apostle have been followed by this very class of people. Then I asked you whether his followers were increasing or decreasing. You replied that they were increasing, and in fact this is the way of true faith, till it is complete in all respects. I further asked you whether there was anybody, who, after embracing his religion, became displeased and discarded his religion. Your reply was in the negative, and in fact this is (the sign of) true faith, when its delight enters the hearts and mixes with them completely. I asked you whether he had ever betrayed. You replied in the negative and likewise the Apostles never betray. Then I asked you what he ordered you to do. You replied that he ordered you to worship Allah and Allah alone and not to worship any thing along with Him and forbade you to worship idols and ordered you to pray, to speak the truth and to be chaste. If what you have said is true, he will very soon occupy this place underneath my feet and I knew it (from the scriptures) that he was going to appear but I did not know that he would be from you, and if I could reach him definitely, I would go immediately to meet him and if I were with him, I would certainly wash his feet.' Heraclius then asked for the letter addressed by Allah's Apostle
which was delivered by Dihya to the Governor of Busra, who forwarded it to Heraclius to read. The contents of the letter were as follows: "In the name of Allah the Beneficent, the Merciful (This letter is) from Muhammad the slave of Allah and His Apostle to Heraclius the ruler of Byzantine. Peace be upon him, who follows the right path. Furthermore I invite you to Islam, and if you become a Muslim you will be safe, and Allah will double your reward, and if you reject this invitation of Islam you will be committing a sin by misguiding your Arisiyin (peasants). (And I recite to you Allah's Statement
'O people of the scripture! Come to a word common to you and us that we worship none but Allah and that we associate nothing in worship with Him, and that none of us shall take others as Lords beside Allah. Then, if they turn away, say: Bear witness that we are Muslims (those who have surrendered to Allah).' (3:64).
Abu Sufyan then added, "When Heraclius had finished his speech and had read the letter, there was a great hue and cry in the Royal Court. So we were turned out of the court. I told my companions that the question of Ibn-Abi-Kabsha) (the Prophet Muhammad) has become so prominent that even the King of Bani Al-Asfar (Byzantine) is afraid of him. Then I started to become sure that he (the Prophet) would be the conqueror in the near future till I embraced Islam (i.e. Allah guided me to it)."
The sub narrator adds, "Ibn An-Natur was the Governor of llya' (Jerusalem) and Heraclius was the head of the Christians of Sham. Ibn An-Natur narrates that once while Heraclius was visiting ilya' (Jerusalem), he got up in the morning with a sad mood. Some of his priests asked him why he was in that mood? Heraclius was a foreteller and an astrologer. He replied, 'At night when I looked at the stars, I saw that the leader of those who practice circumcision had appeared (become the conqueror). Who are they who practice circumcision?' The people replied, 'Except the Jews nobody practices circumcision, so you should not be afraid of them (Jews).
'Just Issue orders to kill every Jew present in the country.'
While they were discussing it, a messenger sent by the king of Ghassan to convey the news of Allah's Apostle to Heraclius was brought in. Having heard the news, he (Heraclius) ordered the people to go and see whether the messenger of Ghassan was circumcised. The people, after seeing him, told Heraclius that he was circumcised. Heraclius then asked him about the Arabs. The messenger replied, 'Arabs also practice circumcision.'
(After hearing that) Heraclius remarked that sovereignty of the 'Arabs had appeared. Heraclius then wrote a letter to his friend in Rome who was as good as Heraclius in knowledge. Heraclius then left for Homs. (a town in Syrian and stayed there till he received the reply of his letter from his friend who agreed with him in his opinion about the emergence of the Prophet and the fact that he was a Prophet. On that Heraclius invited all the heads of the Byzantines to assemble in his palace at Homs. When they assembled, he ordered that all the doors of his palace be closed. Then he came out and said, 'O Byzantines! If success is your desire and if you seek right guidance and want your empire to remain then give a pledge of allegiance to this Prophet (i.e. embrace Islam).'
(On hearing the views of Heraclius) the people ran towards the gates of the palace like onagers but found the doors closed. Heraclius realized their hatred towards Islam and when he lost the hope of their embracing Islam, he ordered that they should be brought back in audience.
(When they returned) he said, 'What already said was just to test the strength of your conviction and I have seen it.' The people prostrated before him and became pleased with him, and this was the end of Heraclius's story (in connection with his faith).

 

[Keltoi]

Re: Who is the Trinity to Christians & Muslims?

Byzantium was half of what was once the Roman Empire.

 

[Muslim Woman]

Re: Who is the Trinity to Christians & Muslims?



Salaam/ peace ;

.... I will have to pray about how to respond to you.

don't know u r talking to whom....it's quite an unusual ans......have to pray about how to respond to you

but ofcourse prayer is good for our this life & the life hereafter ...so go ahead

 

[vpb]

Re: Who is the Trinity to Christians & Muslims?

Why?

Are you joking?

There is no "need" to do anything of the sort. Suggesting there is is as absurd as saying "OK, so Mohammed got the Qur'an from God via the Angel Gabriel. Show me the eye witness reports of those who were there at the time(s) and SAW the Angel Gabriel".

there is no need? are you ingorant or you lost your bicycle? well I dont want to believe blindly without knowing at least who transmitted those words. and there is enough proof that Muhammed had contact with Gibreel a.s, check the previous posts, where I pasted some hadith and the example with the sahaba. And even before the revelation, Muhammed saws was known as "al-amin", the trustworthy, check the hadith on blue of the conversation between Abu Sufyan and Heraclius, what did Abu Sufyan said. I dont want to get now on this topic , cuz there should be already threads about this thing.

There is no need as it is sufficient to assume that Bible is "inspired" by God to assume in turn that it says what He wishes it to say. I'm sure you would agree that that is comfortably within His power? Your point only makes any sense at all if you assume otherwise, which obviously Christians do not. In both cases, the issue is one of faith , not "sources and chains of narration", or indeed eye witnesses. A faith I don't share in the case of either Bible or Qur'an, of course, but then faith is like that - you have it or you don't.

no , i'm sorry I can't accept just blindly somebody's work just like that, if the bible would be something direct from God, of course narration chain would not be needed, but since they depend on these people's work who lived after Death of Jesus and that pretend to have known what Jesus said, then I need to know how did that knowledge came to them, same is for hadiths at us, as I showed a sample above, if there is break on the chain, we don't accept the hadith, even if there is no break on the chain, but the person who transmitts did something like "eating while standing on foot, not sitting" , their hadith is questioned.
so you need a chain of what Paul or john or luke.... said was true and that that knowledge cam from the companions of Jesus. But i'm not suprised for you trying to defend them by saying narration is not needed, which is needed unless follow blindly, bc you are both type of people who commit kufr . so i'm not suprised at all.

and I still ask for a chain narration of any single statement made by Jesus, that any of the goespel writer wrote. Keltoi or alpiana1, or whoever wills may help each other and bring me a chain narration if they can. Otherwise I have no reason to believe statements made by paul, john , ...... to be accurate.

peace

 

[Phil12123]

Re: Who is the Trinity to Christians & Muslims?

There is no "need" to do anything of the sort. Suggesting there is is as absurd as saying "OK, so Mohammed got the Qur'an from God via the Angel Gabriel. Show me the eye witness reports of those who were there at the time(s) and SAW the Angel Gabriel".

There is no need as it is sufficient to assume that Bible is "inspired" by God to assume in turn that it says what He wishes it to say. I'm sure you would agree that that is comfortably within His power? Your point only makes any sense at all if you assume otherwise, which obviously Christians do not. In both cases, the issue is one of faith , not "sources and chains of narration", or indeed eye witnesses. A faith I don't share in the case of either Bible or Qur'an, of course, but then faith is like that - you have it or you don't.

I agree with the above re. any "need" to show some sort of chain of narration. Would you, vpb, believe it then? No. So, why should I bother meeting your request? If Jesus said to Matthew (aka Levi) at that tax collector's table, "Come follow me," and Matthew then writes that in his gospel account, what "chain" is necessary? None. So, do you believe He said that?

Actually, from the chain you offered (that huge chart), I would say whatever was said from the prophet would never be the same as what came out at the other end of the chart, having passed through that many people in the chain. I would trust the Bible before I would trust that.

Peace

 

[vpb]

Re: Who is the Trinity to Christians & Muslims?

I agree with the above re. any "need" to show some sort of chain of narration. Would you, vpb, believe it then? No. So, why should I bother meeting your request?

why do u bother giving me a chain? I want to see one, but I guess you say No bc you can't . but if you can than prove yourself and bring one here .

If Jesus said to Matthew (aka Levi) at that tax collector's table, "Come follow me," and Matthew then writes that in his gospel account, what "chain" is necessary? None. So, do you believe He said that?

how much do we now about Matthew? you barely know he was a tax collector and his father was called james and the 'aka Levi' comes from gospel of Luke. If I were going to believe this person how much do we know about him???

also when I say chain of narration , the people who are in the chain , all of them need to have biographies, otherwise we don't know much about them, wether one of them was pious or corrupted and also corrupted the message or what??

but other writers did not live during the lifetime of jesus, so this is even worse.

we don't even know their last names and you want to come and tell me they are good people and trustworthy , and that they knowledge came from a valid chain and they didn't change any of the words.

So if Bible is not direct word of God, and someone writes it later, we have to know how the knowledge passed. but still you fail you bring me a chain and you excuse yourself by saying that Matthew was a tax collector and he was known as Levi. You don't even know when he died, and where exactly he died. So bring me a chain. Are you lazy of doing so? or you can't ?? bc you have not even the core information about the writers, we don't need even to go further than that.

Actually, from the chain you offered (that huge chart), I would say whatever was said from the prophet would never be the same as what came out at the other end of the chart, having passed through that many people in the chain. I would trust the Bible before I would trust that.

yes it would. cuz these people first are blessed generation, and their capacity of memorization is beoynd the point of our today's people's memory. and also as I stated on the previous post, how pious they had to be. Actually we don't even have to go that further, my best friend he is in Madrasa, when his teacher says a hadith, just once , he memorizes it, or usually when I read hadiths from the book of Shaykh Albanee, in first try he memorizes the hadith. Alhamdulilah. so the process that a hadith goes through to be classified as valid is very very strict.
from 300,000 hadiths that Bukhari collected, 200,000 he memorized , and from 300,000 hadiths he choose aproximately 7,275 hadiths with repetition and about 2,230 without repetition of which their is no doubt aobut their authenticity.

and secondly, Bible is your primary source, whereas hadith is our secondary source, and hadith is not the direct word of God, whereas Qur'an is. So do u claim that Bible is the word of God.

just for the sake of argument, at least bring me the chain of knowledge that passed through these inspired people, i'm not asking bout wether they were pious, or their biographies.

Bring the proof if you are truthful , and don't go around the corner on giving excuses.

 

[Trumble]

Re: Who is the Trinity to Christians & Muslims?

Are you joking?

No.

are you ingorant or you lost your bicycle?

I would hope I am no more of the first than most here, and my bicycle is where I left it.

well I dont want to believe blindly without knowing at least who transmitted those words. and there is enough proof that Muhammed had contact with Gibreel a.s

You believe blindly enough yourself; there is nothing remotely resembling "proof" that there even was/is a Gibreel let alone that Mohammed had contact with him. You merely have faith in both.

But i'm not suprised for you trying to defend them by saying narration is not needed, which is needed unless follow blindly, bc you are both type of people who commit kufr . so i'm not suprised at all.

Nobody needs "defending". I merely pointed out that if you accept the assumption that the Bible was 'inspired' by God, as Christians do, then such a defence is not necessary. If you do not accept that assumption, then the whole point is irrelevant as the words transmitted would have just as little to do with God whether 'chains' existed or not.

and I still ask for a chain narration of any single statement made by Jesus, that any of the goespel writer wrote. Keltoi or alpiana1, or whoever wills may help each other and bring me a chain narration if they can. Otherwise I have no reason to believe statements made by paul, john , ...... to be accurate.

I'm puzzled as to why you keep asking for something you know full well doesn't exist. And, if it did, would you believe any differently? Even if you could trace a direct line between, say, somebody standing next to Jesus when he gave the Sermon on the Mount and a gospel author what is to to say that the transmission was accurate? If, of course, God was guiding the whole process along, as Christians believe, that wouldn't have happened, so again from their perspective there is no problem.