"Views on Atonement for Sin."
- Thread starter Redeemed
- Start date
- Replies 631
- Views 57K
British Wholesales - Certified Wholesale Linen & Towels | Halal Food Gastronomy | vBulletin 4 php 8.0 patch
Re: Who is the Trinity to Christians & Muslims?
It is interesting to see the difference between the responses to my last post. On the one hand, Grace Seeker, a Christian, understands completely and adds edifying words to it, further explaining the Christian position. Of the Muslim responders, Woodrow and MustafaMc also show a degree of understanding and grace. Then there is vpb. He seems full of venom, ready to accuse and condemn, with words I have no understanding of (perhaps Muslim words, like "kufr"). Let me say to vpb, take a lesson from your Muslim brothers. Read their responses and compare theirs with yours. See any difference? Or do you just think you're "telling it like it is"?
Colossians 4:6 says, "Let your speech always be with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer each one."
Ephesians 4:29 says, "Let no corrupt communication proceed out of your mouth, but what is good for necessary edification, that it may impart grace to the hearers."
I hope I am obeying those, too. If not, you are invited to remind me of them. I am never above correction.
Peace
It is interesting to see the difference between the responses to my last post. On the one hand, Grace Seeker, a Christian, understands completely and adds edifying words to it, further explaining the Christian position. Of the Muslim responders, Woodrow and MustafaMc also show a degree of understanding and grace. Then there is vpb. He seems full of venom, ready to accuse and condemn, with words I have no understanding of (perhaps Muslim words, like "kufr"). Let me say to vpb, take a lesson from your Muslim brothers. Read their responses and compare theirs with yours. See any difference? Or do you just think you're "telling it like it is"?
Colossians 4:6 says, "Let your speech always be with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer each one."
Ephesians 4:29 says, "Let no corrupt communication proceed out of your mouth, but what is good for necessary edification, that it may impart grace to the hearers."
I hope I am obeying those, too. If not, you are invited to remind me of them. I am never above correction.
Peace
Woodrow
May Allah have mercy on him رحمة الله عليه
- Messages
- 17,217
- Reaction score
- 4,224
- Gender
- Male
- Religion
- Islam
Re: Who is the Trinity to Christians & Muslims?
Peace Phil,
Keep in mind we are all from different backgrounds. A persons responses will tend to be a reflection of what a person has seen. When a person responds to any of us in a manner we see as harsh, I like to assume it is because we do not understand each other.
The word Kufir would have to be heard in person and not read to understand what is meant by it. To an Arabic speaker it carries simply the connotation of being non-Muslim. Although some people in the Western world that speak limited Arabic have begun using it in a derogatory manner and as a label instead of a statement of fact. So you would have to hear the tone of a persons voice to determine if it is meant as a derogatory comment or as a simple fact.
Peace Phil,
Keep in mind we are all from different backgrounds. A persons responses will tend to be a reflection of what a person has seen. When a person responds to any of us in a manner we see as harsh, I like to assume it is because we do not understand each other.
The word Kufir would have to be heard in person and not read to understand what is meant by it. To an Arabic speaker it carries simply the connotation of being non-Muslim. Although some people in the Western world that speak limited Arabic have begun using it in a derogatory manner and as a label instead of a statement of fact. So you would have to hear the tone of a persons voice to determine if it is meant as a derogatory comment or as a simple fact.
vpb
IB Expert
- Messages
- 1,943
- Reaction score
- 189
- Gender
- Male
- Religion
- Islam
Re: Who is the Trinity to Christians & Muslims?
and kufr = disbelief.
Peace.
ye i know, you want to tell me that my posts are rude, but you have also to think before you accusse Allah swt that He has a lack of mercy. if you condem my Lord and your Lord then of course I accusse and condem you. How can there be grace with you , checkout again the post that you made what you wrote there? you have written the most horrible thing that exists in this universe. You should be rude to yourself, not me to you. Please don't make such posts, if you have a little bit respect for us.
and kufr = disbelief.
Peace.
Keltoi
IB Legend
- Messages
- 5,061
- Reaction score
- 463
Re: Who is the Trinity to Christians & Muslims?
As a Christian I understand exactly what you and Grace Seeker were trying to explain. Until a person actually finds that relationship with God through Jesus Christ it would be hard to understand. I didn't understand it for a long time. Realistically, words can't really explain what we feel as Christians, or what Muslims feel as Muslims.
On the issue of the responses to your post, some people just enjoy discussing the various elements of one's particular faith, and some people seem to enjoy trying to "prove" their religion is correct by trying "prove" another's religion is wrong. It is best to avoid those discussions, as the answer you give isn't what concerns them.
As a Christian I understand exactly what you and Grace Seeker were trying to explain. Until a person actually finds that relationship with God through Jesus Christ it would be hard to understand. I didn't understand it for a long time. Realistically, words can't really explain what we feel as Christians, or what Muslims feel as Muslims.
On the issue of the responses to your post, some people just enjoy discussing the various elements of one's particular faith, and some people seem to enjoy trying to "prove" their religion is correct by trying "prove" another's religion is wrong. It is best to avoid those discussions, as the answer you give isn't what concerns them.
vpb
IB Expert
- Messages
- 1,943
- Reaction score
- 189
- Gender
- Male
- Religion
- Islam
Re: Who is the Trinity to Christians & Muslims?
live reality dude, we all join here, to learn from each other, and at the same time try to prove eachother wrong, what's wrong with this? , don't tell me you don't do that, or you're not here for that, at least on of your reasons .
you just pretend to be one of the 21st modern people, who say "don't tell me I'm wrong" . what is wrong is wrong , what is right is right, and we try to tell each other that "look , this is right this is wrong" . what's wrong with this?
be realistic. there are millions of christian missionaries who go all over the world, who make people think christianity is true? I don't blame them, it's natural.
I guess you are identifying me as "the one who tried to prove you wrong, and prove myself right" ??? why do you pretend to be the one who belongs to the first group? so you haven't made any posts in this forum, which tries to prove Christianity is true and Islam is false?
live reality dude, we all join here, to learn from each other, and at the same time try to prove eachother wrong, what's wrong with this? , don't tell me you don't do that, or you're not here for that, at least on of your reasons .
you just pretend to be one of the 21st modern people, who say "don't tell me I'm wrong" . what is wrong is wrong , what is right is right, and we try to tell each other that "look , this is right this is wrong" . what's wrong with this?
be realistic. there are millions of christian missionaries who go all over the world, who make people think christianity is true? I don't blame them, it's natural.
Last edited:
Re: Who is the Trinity to Christians & Muslims?
Woodrow, Christians believe God is fully capable of forgiving each of us with just a thought. But God has revealed, first in the Old Testament, that to be just God must punish every sin. So He instituted the animal sacrifice system and, for example, a lamb without spot or blemish was sacrificed for the sins of the people. There were probably millions of animals sacrificed over the hundreds of years they did that. Why? Because:
Lev. 17:11 "For the life of the flesh is in the blood, and I have given it to you upon the altar to make atonement for your souls; for it is the blood that makes atonement for the soul."
Now the blood of those animals merely covered sins, as in the Passover, when God saw the blood, He would pass over the sinner and judgment would not fall on him. The sin was paid for by the animal's life, its blood. God's MERCY on the sinner was based on the shedding of blood of the animal in payment for the sinner's sins.
All of that was a type or picture of the Ultimate Sacrifice to come when Jesus, "the Lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world" (John 1:29) would lay down His life, shedding the "precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot" (1 Peter 1:19). But Christ's blood doesn't just cover sins, it washes they away (Rev. 1:5; 1 John 1:7).
That is now the basis of a person's redemption and of God's mercy and grace toward the sinner. That is God's way. For a sinner to say to God, "No, I reject what Christ did for me," is to reject GOD'S way of salvation, which then removes any chance for mercy and forgiveness. God "spared not His own Son but delivered Him up for us all" (Rom. 8:32). In effect, God sent His Son to save the world by His shed blood, showing HIM no mercy as He (Jesus) bore our sins (taking our punishment), so that God could be JUST in terms of punishing all sin, and show US mercy by giving us forgiveness as a free gift. And because it is free to us, we have no excuse. If we reject it, we simply sentence OURSELVES to an eternity paying for our own sins.
Peace
Woodrow, Christians believe God is fully capable of forgiving each of us with just a thought. But God has revealed, first in the Old Testament, that to be just God must punish every sin. So He instituted the animal sacrifice system and, for example, a lamb without spot or blemish was sacrificed for the sins of the people. There were probably millions of animals sacrificed over the hundreds of years they did that. Why? Because:
Lev. 17:11 "For the life of the flesh is in the blood, and I have given it to you upon the altar to make atonement for your souls; for it is the blood that makes atonement for the soul."
Now the blood of those animals merely covered sins, as in the Passover, when God saw the blood, He would pass over the sinner and judgment would not fall on him. The sin was paid for by the animal's life, its blood. God's MERCY on the sinner was based on the shedding of blood of the animal in payment for the sinner's sins.
All of that was a type or picture of the Ultimate Sacrifice to come when Jesus, "the Lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world" (John 1:29) would lay down His life, shedding the "precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot" (1 Peter 1:19). But Christ's blood doesn't just cover sins, it washes they away (Rev. 1:5; 1 John 1:7).
That is now the basis of a person's redemption and of God's mercy and grace toward the sinner. That is God's way. For a sinner to say to God, "No, I reject what Christ did for me," is to reject GOD'S way of salvation, which then removes any chance for mercy and forgiveness. God "spared not His own Son but delivered Him up for us all" (Rom. 8:32). In effect, God sent His Son to save the world by His shed blood, showing HIM no mercy as He (Jesus) bore our sins (taking our punishment), so that God could be JUST in terms of punishing all sin, and show US mercy by giving us forgiveness as a free gift. And because it is free to us, we have no excuse. If we reject it, we simply sentence OURSELVES to an eternity paying for our own sins.
Peace
Re: Who is the Trinity to Christians & Muslims?
If you would read my last post above, you can see that I do not accuse God of lacking mercy. I'm merely saying (as I have said over and over again), that God's mercy is based on what a person does with (accept or reject) Jesus and what Jesus did at Calvary. You can't receive God's mercy without receiving Christ as the One who paid for your sins. Period.
Sorry, but I cannot imagine what you are talking about. "..the most horrible thing that exists in this universe"?? What words are you talking about?
Peace
If you would read my last post above, you can see that I do not accuse God of lacking mercy. I'm merely saying (as I have said over and over again), that God's mercy is based on what a person does with (accept or reject) Jesus and what Jesus did at Calvary. You can't receive God's mercy without receiving Christ as the One who paid for your sins. Period.
Sorry, but I cannot imagine what you are talking about. "..the most horrible thing that exists in this universe"?? What words are you talking about?
Peace
vpb
IB Expert
- Messages
- 1,943
- Reaction score
- 189
- Gender
- Male
- Religion
- Islam
Re: Who is the Trinity to Christians & Muslims?
The Meaning of Ar-Rahman Ar-Rahim - the Most Gracious, the Most Merciful
Ar-Rahman and Ar-Rahim are two names derived from Ar-Rahmah (the mercy), but Rahman has more meanings that pertain to mercy than Ar-Rahim. There is a statement by Ibn Jarir that indicates that there is a consensus on this meaning. Further, Al-Qurtubi said, "The proof that these names are derived (from Ar-Rahmah), is what At-Tirmidhi recorded - and graded Sahih from `Abdur-Rahman bin `Awf that he heard the Messenger of Allah say,
«قَالَ اللهُ تَعَالى: أَنَا الرَّحْمنُ خَلَقْتُ الرَّحِمَ وَشَقَقْتُ لَهَا اسْمًا مِنِ اسْمِي، فَمَنْ وَصَلَهَا وَصَلْتُهُ وَمَنْ قَطَعَها قَطَعْتُهُ»
(Allah the Exalted said, 'I Am Ar-Rahman. I created the Raham (womb, i.e. family relations) and derived a name for it from My Name. Hence, whoever keeps it, I will keep ties to him, and whoever severs it, I will sever ties with him.') He then said, "This is a text that indicates the derivation.'' He then said, "The Arabs denied the name Ar-Rahman, because of their ignorance about Allah and His attributes.''
Al-Qurtubi said, "It was said that both Ar-Rahman and Ar-Rahim have the same meaning, such as the words Nadman and Nadim, as Abu `Ubayd has stated. Abu `Ali Al-Farisi said, `Ar-Rahman, which is exclusively for Allah, is a name that encompasses every type of mercy that Allah has. Ar-Rahim is what effects the believers, for Allah said,
[وَكَانَ بِالْمُؤْمِنِينَ رَحِيماً]
(And He is ever Rahim (merciful) to the believers.)' (33:43) Also, Ibn `Abbas said - about Ar-Rahman and Ar-Rahim, `They are two soft names, one of them is softer than the other (meaning it carries more implications of mercy).'''
Ibn Jarir said; As-Surri bin Yahya At-Tamimi narrated to me that `Uthman bin Zufar related that Al-`Azrami said about Ar-Rahman and Ar-Rahim, "He is Ar-Rahman with all creation and Ar-Rahim with the believers.'' Hence. Allah's statements,
[ثُمَّ اسْتَوَى عَلَى الْعَرْشِ الرَّحْمَـنُ]
(Then He rose over (Istawa) the Throne (in a manner that suits His majesty), Ar-Rahman) (25:59),) and,
[الرَّحْمَـنُ عَلَى الْعَرْشِ اسْتَوَى ]
(Ar-Rahman (Allah) rose over (Istawa) the (Mighty) Throne (in a manner that suits His majesty).) (20:5)
Allah thus mentioned the Istawa - rising over the Throne - along with His Name Ar-Rahman, to indicate that His mercy encompasses all of His creation. Allah also said,
[وَكَانَ بِالْمُؤْمِنِينَ رَحِيماً]
(And He is ever Rahim (merciful) to the believers), thus encompassing the believers with His Name Ar-Rahim. They said, "This testifies to the fact that Ar-Rahman carries a broader scope of meanings pertaining to the mercy of Allah with His creation in both lives. Meanwhile, Ar-Rahim is exclusively for the believers.'' Yet, we should mention that there is a supplication that reads,
«رَحْمنَ الدُّنْيَا وَالْآخِرَةِ وَرَحِيمَهُمَا»
(The Rahman and the Rahim of this life and the Hereafter)
Allah's Name Ar-Rahman is exclusively His. For instance, Allah said,
[قُلِ ادْعُواْ اللَّهَ أَوِ ادْعُواْ الرَّحْمَـنَ أَيًّا مَّا تَدْعُواْ فَلَهُ الاٌّسْمَآءَ الْحُسْنَى]
(Say (O Muhammad ): "Invoke Allah or invoke Ar-Rahman (Allah), by whatever name you invoke Him (it is the same), for to Him belong the Best Names) (17:110),) and,
[وَاسْئلْ مَنْ أَرْسَلْنَا مِن قَبْلِكَ مِن رُّسُلِنَآ أَجَعَلْنَا مِن دُونِ الرَّحْمَـنِ ءَالِهَةً يُعْبَدُونَ ]
(And ask (O Muhammad ) those of Our Messengers whom We sent before you: "Did We ever appoint alihah (gods) to be worshipped besides Ar-Rahman (Most Gracious, Allah)'') (43:45).
Further, when Musaylimah the Liar called himself the Rahman of Yamamah, Allah made him known by the name `Liar' and exposed him. Hence, whenever Musaylimah is mentioned, he is described as `the Liar'. He became an example for lying among the residents of the cities and villages and the residents of the deserts, the bedouins.
Therefore, Allah first mentioned His Name - Allah - that is exclusively His and described this Name by Ar-Rahman, which no one else is allowed to use, just as Allah said,
[قُلِ ادْعُواْ اللَّهَ أَوِ ادْعُواْ الرَّحْمَـنَ أَيًّا مَّا تَدْعُواْ فَلَهُ الاٌّسْمَآءَ الْحُسْنَى]
(Say (O Muhammad ): "Invoke Allah or invoke Ar-Rahman (Allah), by whatever name you invoke Him (it is the same), for to Him belong the Best Names.'') (17:110)
Only Musaylimah and those who followed his misguided ways described Musaylimah by Ar-Rahman.
As for Allah's Name Ar-Rahim, Allah has described others by it. For instance, Allah said,
[لَقَدْ جَآءَكُمْ رَسُولٌ مِّنْ أَنفُسِكُمْ عَزِيزٌ عَلَيْهِ مَا عَنِتُّمْ حَرِيصٌ عَلَيْكُمْ بِالْمُؤْمِنِينَ رَءُوفٌ رَّحِيمٌ ]
(Verily, there has come unto you a Messenger (Muhammad ) from amongst yourselves (i.e. whom you know well). It grieves him that you should receive any injury or difficulty. He (Muhammad ) is anxious over you (to be rightly guided) for the believers (he is) kind (full of pity), and Rahim (merciful)) (9:128).
Allah has also described some of His creation using some of His other Names. For instance, Allah said,
[إِنَّا خَلَقْنَا الإِنسَـنَ مِن نُّطْفَةٍ أَمْشَاجٍ نَّبْتَلِيهِ فَجَعَلْنَـهُ سَمِيعاً بَصِيراً ]
(Verily, We have created man from Nutfah (drops) of mixed semen (sexual discharge of man and woman), in order to try him, so We made him hearer (Sami`) and seer (Basir) (76:2).
In conclusion, there are several of Allah's Names that are used as names for others besides Allah. Further, some of Allah's Names are exclusive for Allah alone, such as Allah, Ar-Rahman, Al-Khaliq (the Creator), Ar-Raziq (the Sustainer), and so forth.
Hence, Allah started the Tasmiyah (meaning, `In the Name of Allah, Most Gracious Most Merciful') with His Name, Allah, and described Himself as Ar-Rahman, (Most Gracious) which is softer and more general than Ar-Rahim. The most honorable Names are mentioned first, just as Allah did here.
A Hadith narrated by Umm Salamah stated that the recitation of the Messenger of Allah was slow and clear, letter by letter,
[بِسْمِ اللَّهِ الرَّحْمَـنِ الرَّحِيمِ - الْحَمْدُ للَّهِ رَبِّ الْعَـلَمِينَ - الرَّحْمَـنِ الرَّحِيمِ - مَـلِكِ يَوْمِ الدِّينِ ]
(In the Name of Allah, the Most Gracious, the Most Merciful. All the praises and thanks be to Allah, the Lord of all that exists. The Most Gracious, the Most Merciful. The Owner of the Day of Recompense) (1:1-4).
And this is how a group of scholars recite it. Others connected the recitation of the Tasmiyah to Al-Hamd.
[الْحَمْدُ للَّهِ رَبِّ الْعَـلَمِينَ ]
(2. Al-Hamd be to Allah, the Lord of all that exists.)
The Meaning of Ar-Rahman Ar-Rahim - the Most Gracious, the Most Merciful
Ar-Rahman and Ar-Rahim are two names derived from Ar-Rahmah (the mercy), but Rahman has more meanings that pertain to mercy than Ar-Rahim. There is a statement by Ibn Jarir that indicates that there is a consensus on this meaning. Further, Al-Qurtubi said, "The proof that these names are derived (from Ar-Rahmah), is what At-Tirmidhi recorded - and graded Sahih from `Abdur-Rahman bin `Awf that he heard the Messenger of Allah say,
«قَالَ اللهُ تَعَالى: أَنَا الرَّحْمنُ خَلَقْتُ الرَّحِمَ وَشَقَقْتُ لَهَا اسْمًا مِنِ اسْمِي، فَمَنْ وَصَلَهَا وَصَلْتُهُ وَمَنْ قَطَعَها قَطَعْتُهُ»
(Allah the Exalted said, 'I Am Ar-Rahman. I created the Raham (womb, i.e. family relations) and derived a name for it from My Name. Hence, whoever keeps it, I will keep ties to him, and whoever severs it, I will sever ties with him.') He then said, "This is a text that indicates the derivation.'' He then said, "The Arabs denied the name Ar-Rahman, because of their ignorance about Allah and His attributes.''
Al-Qurtubi said, "It was said that both Ar-Rahman and Ar-Rahim have the same meaning, such as the words Nadman and Nadim, as Abu `Ubayd has stated. Abu `Ali Al-Farisi said, `Ar-Rahman, which is exclusively for Allah, is a name that encompasses every type of mercy that Allah has. Ar-Rahim is what effects the believers, for Allah said,
[وَكَانَ بِالْمُؤْمِنِينَ رَحِيماً]
(And He is ever Rahim (merciful) to the believers.)' (33:43) Also, Ibn `Abbas said - about Ar-Rahman and Ar-Rahim, `They are two soft names, one of them is softer than the other (meaning it carries more implications of mercy).'''
Ibn Jarir said; As-Surri bin Yahya At-Tamimi narrated to me that `Uthman bin Zufar related that Al-`Azrami said about Ar-Rahman and Ar-Rahim, "He is Ar-Rahman with all creation and Ar-Rahim with the believers.'' Hence. Allah's statements,
[ثُمَّ اسْتَوَى عَلَى الْعَرْشِ الرَّحْمَـنُ]
(Then He rose over (Istawa) the Throne (in a manner that suits His majesty), Ar-Rahman) (25:59),) and,
[الرَّحْمَـنُ عَلَى الْعَرْشِ اسْتَوَى ]
(Ar-Rahman (Allah) rose over (Istawa) the (Mighty) Throne (in a manner that suits His majesty).) (20:5)
Allah thus mentioned the Istawa - rising over the Throne - along with His Name Ar-Rahman, to indicate that His mercy encompasses all of His creation. Allah also said,
[وَكَانَ بِالْمُؤْمِنِينَ رَحِيماً]
(And He is ever Rahim (merciful) to the believers), thus encompassing the believers with His Name Ar-Rahim. They said, "This testifies to the fact that Ar-Rahman carries a broader scope of meanings pertaining to the mercy of Allah with His creation in both lives. Meanwhile, Ar-Rahim is exclusively for the believers.'' Yet, we should mention that there is a supplication that reads,
«رَحْمنَ الدُّنْيَا وَالْآخِرَةِ وَرَحِيمَهُمَا»
(The Rahman and the Rahim of this life and the Hereafter)
Allah's Name Ar-Rahman is exclusively His. For instance, Allah said,
[قُلِ ادْعُواْ اللَّهَ أَوِ ادْعُواْ الرَّحْمَـنَ أَيًّا مَّا تَدْعُواْ فَلَهُ الاٌّسْمَآءَ الْحُسْنَى]
(Say (O Muhammad ): "Invoke Allah or invoke Ar-Rahman (Allah), by whatever name you invoke Him (it is the same), for to Him belong the Best Names) (17:110),) and,
[وَاسْئلْ مَنْ أَرْسَلْنَا مِن قَبْلِكَ مِن رُّسُلِنَآ أَجَعَلْنَا مِن دُونِ الرَّحْمَـنِ ءَالِهَةً يُعْبَدُونَ ]
(And ask (O Muhammad ) those of Our Messengers whom We sent before you: "Did We ever appoint alihah (gods) to be worshipped besides Ar-Rahman (Most Gracious, Allah)'') (43:45).
Further, when Musaylimah the Liar called himself the Rahman of Yamamah, Allah made him known by the name `Liar' and exposed him. Hence, whenever Musaylimah is mentioned, he is described as `the Liar'. He became an example for lying among the residents of the cities and villages and the residents of the deserts, the bedouins.
Therefore, Allah first mentioned His Name - Allah - that is exclusively His and described this Name by Ar-Rahman, which no one else is allowed to use, just as Allah said,
[قُلِ ادْعُواْ اللَّهَ أَوِ ادْعُواْ الرَّحْمَـنَ أَيًّا مَّا تَدْعُواْ فَلَهُ الاٌّسْمَآءَ الْحُسْنَى]
(Say (O Muhammad ): "Invoke Allah or invoke Ar-Rahman (Allah), by whatever name you invoke Him (it is the same), for to Him belong the Best Names.'') (17:110)
Only Musaylimah and those who followed his misguided ways described Musaylimah by Ar-Rahman.
As for Allah's Name Ar-Rahim, Allah has described others by it. For instance, Allah said,
[لَقَدْ جَآءَكُمْ رَسُولٌ مِّنْ أَنفُسِكُمْ عَزِيزٌ عَلَيْهِ مَا عَنِتُّمْ حَرِيصٌ عَلَيْكُمْ بِالْمُؤْمِنِينَ رَءُوفٌ رَّحِيمٌ ]
(Verily, there has come unto you a Messenger (Muhammad ) from amongst yourselves (i.e. whom you know well). It grieves him that you should receive any injury or difficulty. He (Muhammad ) is anxious over you (to be rightly guided) for the believers (he is) kind (full of pity), and Rahim (merciful)) (9:128).
Allah has also described some of His creation using some of His other Names. For instance, Allah said,
[إِنَّا خَلَقْنَا الإِنسَـنَ مِن نُّطْفَةٍ أَمْشَاجٍ نَّبْتَلِيهِ فَجَعَلْنَـهُ سَمِيعاً بَصِيراً ]
(Verily, We have created man from Nutfah (drops) of mixed semen (sexual discharge of man and woman), in order to try him, so We made him hearer (Sami`) and seer (Basir) (76:2).
In conclusion, there are several of Allah's Names that are used as names for others besides Allah. Further, some of Allah's Names are exclusive for Allah alone, such as Allah, Ar-Rahman, Al-Khaliq (the Creator), Ar-Raziq (the Sustainer), and so forth.
Hence, Allah started the Tasmiyah (meaning, `In the Name of Allah, Most Gracious Most Merciful') with His Name, Allah, and described Himself as Ar-Rahman, (Most Gracious) which is softer and more general than Ar-Rahim. The most honorable Names are mentioned first, just as Allah did here.
A Hadith narrated by Umm Salamah stated that the recitation of the Messenger of Allah was slow and clear, letter by letter,
[بِسْمِ اللَّهِ الرَّحْمَـنِ الرَّحِيمِ - الْحَمْدُ للَّهِ رَبِّ الْعَـلَمِينَ - الرَّحْمَـنِ الرَّحِيمِ - مَـلِكِ يَوْمِ الدِّينِ ]
(In the Name of Allah, the Most Gracious, the Most Merciful. All the praises and thanks be to Allah, the Lord of all that exists. The Most Gracious, the Most Merciful. The Owner of the Day of Recompense) (1:1-4).
And this is how a group of scholars recite it. Others connected the recitation of the Tasmiyah to Al-Hamd.
[الْحَمْدُ للَّهِ رَبِّ الْعَـلَمِينَ ]
(2. Al-Hamd be to Allah, the Lord of all that exists.)
Keltoi
IB Legend
- Messages
- 5,061
- Reaction score
- 463
Re: Who is the Trinity to Christians & Muslims?
I've never submitted a post in the context of "proving" Islam to be wrong. Of course I believe that, but I don't have any interest in trying to "prove" it to you. Of course this is a Muslim forum, so I know that most of these threads will be directed towards casting doubt on the Christian faith, it isn't exactly shocking. However, I've never intentionally said anything to be insulting or call into doubt a Muslim's faith, or any other for that matter. I have more respect than that, plus I'm secure enough with my own faith that the thought of arguing with somebody about their beliefs seems a little pointless to me. I'm interesting in learning about Islam, not proving them wrong.
I've never submitted a post in the context of "proving" Islam to be wrong. Of course I believe that, but I don't have any interest in trying to "prove" it to you. Of course this is a Muslim forum, so I know that most of these threads will be directed towards casting doubt on the Christian faith, it isn't exactly shocking. However, I've never intentionally said anything to be insulting or call into doubt a Muslim's faith, or any other for that matter. I have more respect than that, plus I'm secure enough with my own faith that the thought of arguing with somebody about their beliefs seems a little pointless to me. I'm interesting in learning about Islam, not proving them wrong.
Re: Who is the Trinity to Christians & Muslims?
What? THAT is "the most horrible thing that exists in this universe"??? But it is the TRUTH, isn't it?? YOU don't know if that (obtaining Allah's mercy and forgiveness) is how it will turn out in YOUR case, do you? You have to wait till after your "trial" to see if you get mercy and forgiveness (and therefore heaven) or not (and therefore hell). Right?
Peace
What? THAT is "the most horrible thing that exists in this universe"??? But it is the TRUTH, isn't it?? YOU don't know if that (obtaining Allah's mercy and forgiveness) is how it will turn out in YOUR case, do you? You have to wait till after your "trial" to see if you get mercy and forgiveness (and therefore heaven) or not (and therefore hell). Right?
Peace
vpb
IB Expert
- Messages
- 1,943
- Reaction score
- 189
- Gender
- Male
- Religion
- Islam
Re: Who is the Trinity to Christians & Muslims?
I understand what you are saying, but people need to be a more realistic, I mean I have no problem if you try to prove Islam wrong, unless you start using improper sources. so it's a fear game. I try to prove mine, you try yours. now bc you dont', that's a different thing.
peace.
I understand what you are saying, but people need to be a more realistic, I mean I have no problem if you try to prove Islam wrong, unless you start using improper sources. so it's a fear game. I try to prove mine, you try yours. now bc you dont', that's a different thing.
peace.
vpb
IB Expert
- Messages
- 1,943
- Reaction score
- 189
- Gender
- Male
- Religion
- Islam
Re: Who is the Trinity to Christians & Muslims?
for example we don't and usually avoid calling a muslim a munafiq (hypocrit), who posseses hypocrit's characteristics, but we know that if you do certain things, you become a munafiq, but we don't point with fingers. so we know what makes you a hypocrit, but we don't put a stamp on the paper, to confirm for someone that he is a hypocrit. same is with wether we go to hell or heaven. We know what makes you win heaven, and what makes you go to Hell, but we don't confirm things, bc we are not the ones who do that. cuz Allah is the one who decides, who knows . We don't have enough knowledge to know people's hearts. So Allah on the Day of Judgment will judge people according to what they did, (even things smaller than the atom, as it says in the Qur'an) , according to what their hearts held, and if they deserve mercy, Allah will give them mercy, if not , He will not give them mercy. And Allah swt knows who he gives mercy.
the thing is that a person may be a very good muslim, do all good deeds, avoid haram stuff but we don't say "He will go to heaven", bc then I am like confirming God's decision. and I shouldn't. That's why we don't know. bc we can't confirm it, we are not the one who confirm things. But Allah swt tells us in Qur'an in many places, that who will deserve to go to heaven and who to hell.
please read all the verses, so you can understand what i'm trying to say.
2:38. We said: "Get ye down all from here; and if, as is sure, there comes to you Guidance from me, whosoever follows My guidance, on them shall be no fear, nor shall they grieve.
2:156. Who say, when afflicted with calamity: "To Allah We belong, and to Him is our return":-
2:157. They are those on whom (Descend) blessings from Allah, and Mercy, and they are the ones that receive guidance.
2:159. Those who conceal the clear (Signs) We have sent down, and the Guidance, after We have made it clear for the people in the Book,-on them shall be Allah.s curse, and the curse of those entitled to curse,-
2:160. Except those who repent and make amends and openly declare (the Truth): To them I turn; for I am Oft-returning, Most Merciful.
2:218. Those who believed and those who suffered exile and fought (and strove and struggled) in the path of Allah,- they have the hope of the Mercy of Allah. And Allah is Oft-forgiving, Most Merciful.
3:31. Say: "If ye do love Allah, Follow me: Allah will love you and forgive you your sins: For Allah is Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful."
4:172. Christ disdaineth nor to serve and worship Allah, nor do the angels, those nearest (to Allah): those who disdain His worship and are arrogant,-He will gather them all together unto Himself to (answer).
4:173. But to those who believe and do deeds of righteousness, He will give their (due) rewards,- and more, out of His bounty: But those who are disdainful and arrogant, He will punish with a grievous penalty; Nor will they find, besides Allah, any to protect or help them.
4:174. O mankind! verily there hath come to you a convincing proof from your Lord: For We have sent unto you a light (that is) manifest.
4:175. Then those who believe in Allah, and hold fast to Him,- soon will He admit them to mercy and grace from Himself, and guide them to Himself by a straight way
ok , now I just posted some of them, cuz there are plenty, but you do you what I am trying to say, Allah swt tells us the signs, that make you recieve his mercy, or the traps, the ditches, which make you go to Hell. But that's why we don't confirm, bc we can say "Ok, he is a good muslim, he prays 5 times a day, he pays zakat, he fasts, performs pilgrimage, does this and that...so he deserves Jannah", now the problem with this is that, we don't have authority to say about someone that he will enter paradise.
an example:
when you apply for job, they say, you need to:
Have skills on such things
Have knowledge on such things
Be good in communication,
Be nice with people ....etc etc. as you usually see on job market.
now, you know what are the things which you need to have, to get the job, but can you garantee and say I will get that job?? no you can't, so your dutie is to fulfill those requirements, and then if you do , if they want, they will accept you to take the job.
I tried my best to explain. may Allah forgive me if I made a mistake somewhere.
you see the thing in Islam, is that Allah swt does not point at us you go to heaven, you go to hell, but the thing with the Qur'an and Sunnah is that it shows you the signs, the traps, the chararistics of one who will go to Hell, and one who will go to Heaven.
for example we don't and usually avoid calling a muslim a munafiq (hypocrit), who posseses hypocrit's characteristics, but we know that if you do certain things, you become a munafiq, but we don't point with fingers. so we know what makes you a hypocrit, but we don't put a stamp on the paper, to confirm for someone that he is a hypocrit. same is with wether we go to hell or heaven. We know what makes you win heaven, and what makes you go to Hell, but we don't confirm things, bc we are not the ones who do that. cuz Allah is the one who decides, who knows . We don't have enough knowledge to know people's hearts. So Allah on the Day of Judgment will judge people according to what they did, (even things smaller than the atom, as it says in the Qur'an) , according to what their hearts held, and if they deserve mercy, Allah will give them mercy, if not , He will not give them mercy. And Allah swt knows who he gives mercy.
the thing is that a person may be a very good muslim, do all good deeds, avoid haram stuff but we don't say "He will go to heaven", bc then I am like confirming God's decision. and I shouldn't. That's why we don't know. bc we can't confirm it, we are not the one who confirm things. But Allah swt tells us in Qur'an in many places, that who will deserve to go to heaven and who to hell.
please read all the verses, so you can understand what i'm trying to say.
2:38. We said: "Get ye down all from here; and if, as is sure, there comes to you Guidance from me, whosoever follows My guidance, on them shall be no fear, nor shall they grieve.
2:156. Who say, when afflicted with calamity: "To Allah We belong, and to Him is our return":-
2:157. They are those on whom (Descend) blessings from Allah, and Mercy, and they are the ones that receive guidance.
2:159. Those who conceal the clear (Signs) We have sent down, and the Guidance, after We have made it clear for the people in the Book,-on them shall be Allah.s curse, and the curse of those entitled to curse,-
2:160. Except those who repent and make amends and openly declare (the Truth): To them I turn; for I am Oft-returning, Most Merciful.
2:218. Those who believed and those who suffered exile and fought (and strove and struggled) in the path of Allah,- they have the hope of the Mercy of Allah. And Allah is Oft-forgiving, Most Merciful.
3:31. Say: "If ye do love Allah, Follow me: Allah will love you and forgive you your sins: For Allah is Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful."
4:172. Christ disdaineth nor to serve and worship Allah, nor do the angels, those nearest (to Allah): those who disdain His worship and are arrogant,-He will gather them all together unto Himself to (answer).
4:173. But to those who believe and do deeds of righteousness, He will give their (due) rewards,- and more, out of His bounty: But those who are disdainful and arrogant, He will punish with a grievous penalty; Nor will they find, besides Allah, any to protect or help them.
4:174. O mankind! verily there hath come to you a convincing proof from your Lord: For We have sent unto you a light (that is) manifest.
4:175. Then those who believe in Allah, and hold fast to Him,- soon will He admit them to mercy and grace from Himself, and guide them to Himself by a straight way
ok , now I just posted some of them, cuz there are plenty, but you do you what I am trying to say, Allah swt tells us the signs, that make you recieve his mercy, or the traps, the ditches, which make you go to Hell. But that's why we don't confirm, bc we can say "Ok, he is a good muslim, he prays 5 times a day, he pays zakat, he fasts, performs pilgrimage, does this and that...so he deserves Jannah", now the problem with this is that, we don't have authority to say about someone that he will enter paradise.
an example:
when you apply for job, they say, you need to:
Have skills on such things
Have knowledge on such things
Be good in communication,
Be nice with people ....etc etc. as you usually see on job market.
now, you know what are the things which you need to have, to get the job, but can you garantee and say I will get that job?? no you can't, so your dutie is to fulfill those requirements, and then if you do , if they want, they will accept you to take the job.
I tried my best to explain. may Allah forgive me if I made a mistake somewhere.
Redeemed
Account Disabled
- Messages
- 753
- Reaction score
- 12
- Gender
- Male
- Religion
- Christianity
Re: Who is the Trinity to Christians & Muslims?
The judgment day is for our rewards' not our sin! Those who don't have Christ are judged by there works. All who a judged by there works for their eternal destiny are in deep fiery mire, bc all have sinned and come short of God's glory. By the way, it doesn't make sense that you have to confess Muhammad along with God to be a Muslim or to have a chance at salvation, just because there are other apostles and prophets. Abraham did not make anyone confess him and God nor did Moses to this because there were other prophets nor did Elijah have his name mentioned or Daniel and so on. In other words, there was not a need for us Christians to confess an apostle or prophet because there were others. We believe that there were many true prophets. Why should one prophet be elevated above another just bc he was the last messenger that spoke until Jesus comes back unless, that prophet is what holds ones worldview together independently of all Biblical Scripture and not the Lord God. You do associate a prophet with Allah in order to be a believer. This we don't do. We believe in The King of kings and Lord of Lords who does not associate Himself with any prophet when it comes to a confession of faith. What do you mean everyone can see it except for me? Who besides Muslims can see it your way? I could say the same that all but you can believe that God is one substance, but three persons, yet there is only one God. This is a great Mystery to us, but the Shahada is not a mystery; it is elevating and trusting one prophet with your eternal destiny, because you must confess him to be saved. No matter how you twist and turn it, you all exalt this prophet above all others simply bc you believe that he brought the last message, and yet there was no prophecy or authoritative word leading up to his ministry like there was centuries before Jesus’ ministry started. We are talking prophecy that tells what His purpose was to be and all that would befall him and it was fulfilled including signs in the heavens and earth. With all due respect I am not trying to be rude just firm in love by calling it the way I see it.
The judgment day is for our rewards' not our sin! Those who don't have Christ are judged by there works. All who a judged by there works for their eternal destiny are in deep fiery mire, bc all have sinned and come short of God's glory. By the way, it doesn't make sense that you have to confess Muhammad along with God to be a Muslim or to have a chance at salvation, just because there are other apostles and prophets. Abraham did not make anyone confess him and God nor did Moses to this because there were other prophets nor did Elijah have his name mentioned or Daniel and so on. In other words, there was not a need for us Christians to confess an apostle or prophet because there were others. We believe that there were many true prophets. Why should one prophet be elevated above another just bc he was the last messenger that spoke until Jesus comes back unless, that prophet is what holds ones worldview together independently of all Biblical Scripture and not the Lord God. You do associate a prophet with Allah in order to be a believer. This we don't do. We believe in The King of kings and Lord of Lords who does not associate Himself with any prophet when it comes to a confession of faith. What do you mean everyone can see it except for me? Who besides Muslims can see it your way? I could say the same that all but you can believe that God is one substance, but three persons, yet there is only one God. This is a great Mystery to us, but the Shahada is not a mystery; it is elevating and trusting one prophet with your eternal destiny, because you must confess him to be saved. No matter how you twist and turn it, you all exalt this prophet above all others simply bc you believe that he brought the last message, and yet there was no prophecy or authoritative word leading up to his ministry like there was centuries before Jesus’ ministry started. We are talking prophecy that tells what His purpose was to be and all that would befall him and it was fulfilled including signs in the heavens and earth. With all due respect I am not trying to be rude just firm in love by calling it the way I see it.
vpb
IB Expert
- Messages
- 1,943
- Reaction score
- 189
- Gender
- Male
- Religion
- Islam
Re: Who is the Trinity to Christians & Muslims?
. So to prove that you Believe Allah is One, and that you are following Muhammed, you have to testify, also that Muhammed is Allah's Messenger.
I tried to be a simple as possible.
and if you still don't understand it, than i'm not gonna try anymore, because I haven't come across any non-muslim who raised this issue, so the problem must be at you, you are either not understanding it, or trying to reject it on purpose so you justify your ascribing partnership of God.
and
don't go to prophecies cuz we know straight away, who fails on prophecies.
peace
ok to make it very simple, you have to declare on testimony that Muhammed is Allah's messenger, because he is the only one you should follow, the only model, no one else. so if you say just La ilahe ilallah (There is no diety of worship but Allah), then there is a possibility that you believe in Allah, but you follow someone else rather than Muhammed a.s, which goes against islam, because Allah says:
"And whatsoever the Messenger (Muhammad, saaws, gives you, take it and whatsoever he forbids you, abstain from it." (v. 59:7)
"Say (O Muhammad to mankind): ‘If you (really) love Allah, then follow me.’" (v. 3:31)
Here are just some of the verse which orders us to follow and obey Muhammed.
. So to prove that you Believe Allah is One, and that you are following Muhammed, you have to testify, also that Muhammed is Allah's Messenger.
I tried to be a simple as possible.
and if you still don't understand it, than i'm not gonna try anymore, because I haven't come across any non-muslim who raised this issue, so the problem must be at you, you are either not understanding it, or trying to reject it on purpose so you justify your ascribing partnership of God.
and
don't go to prophecies cuz we know straight away, who fails on prophecies.
peace
Redeemed
Account Disabled
- Messages
- 753
- Reaction score
- 12
- Gender
- Male
- Religion
- Christianity
Re: Who is the Trinity to Christians & Muslims?
OK, I understand what you are saying, but it is me you don't understand and I have no idea what you mean by don't go to prophecy cuz I know who will fail. Jesus never fails and it is written: "Let every man be a liar but God's word is true." What ever Muhammad says you must do. That certainly sounds like god like powers to me. If he said he was god you would believe it, but you don't realize you would. I consider that ascribing on to God not cuz I don't want to see what you call truth. But, I would be glad to get into it with you on prohecies cuz this ain't getting us anywhere. Other Christians see it this way too, except I am the only nut to come out with it like this.ok to make it very simple, you have to declare on testimony that Muhammed is Allah's messenger, because he is the only one you should follow, the only model, no one else. so if you say just La ilahe ilallah (There is no diety of worship but Allah), then there is a possibility that you believe in Allah, but you follow someone else rather than Muhammed a.s, which goes against islam, because Allah says:
"And whatsoever the Messenger (Muhammad, saaws, gives you, take it and whatsoever he forbids you, abstain from it." (v. 59:7)
"Say (O Muhammad to mankind): ‘If you (really) love Allah, then follow me.’" (v. 3:31)Here are just some of the verse which orders us to follow and obey Muhammed.
. So to prove that you Believe Allah is One, and that you are following Muhammed, you have to testify, also that Muhammed is Allah's Messenger.
I tried to be a simple as possible.
and if you still don't understand it, than i'm not gonna try anymore, because I haven't come across any non-muslim who raised this issue, so the problem must be at you, you are either not understanding it, or trying to reject it on purpose so you justify your ascribing partnership of God.
and
don't go to prophecies cuz we know straight away, who fails on prophecies.
peace
Woodrow
May Allah have mercy on him رحمة الله عليه
- Messages
- 17,217
- Reaction score
- 4,224
- Gender
- Male
- Religion
- Islam
Re: Who is the Trinity to Christians & Muslims?
I am trying to find what I can agree with you here. The most obvious is:"cuz this ain't getting us anywhere". I realize this is very frustrating to you. I can see and understand that many of our beliefs do go against your beliefs. In all fairness i assure you, your beliefs sound just as incomprehensible and unreasonable to us.
It all comes down to which is the truth. The Bible or the Qur'an. If you believe the Bible is true, it is impossible for you to believe the Qur'an. We believe the Qur'an is the truth and it is impossible for us to believe the Bible.
At the moment it seems that your arguments are beginning to be based on emotionalism.
To us that are watching, you seem to be trying to convince us. But, we are getting the impression that you are seeking to convince yourself that your beliefs are valid and that to prove your beliefs you now have a strong need to convince at least one Muslim that the Bible is true.
You see us as a challenge and you have a need to prove to yourself that the words of the Bible are sufficient to cause at least one of us to abandon Islam.
I doubt very much that you fully understand that we know in our hearts, through our faith and from the words of Allah(swt) that what you are mistakingly trying to lead us into is the road to eternal Hellfire. I know that you believe you are on the path to Paradise, but we know that is the path to eternal death and loss of heaven. We are all praying that Allah(swt) will be merciful and you will find the truth before it is too late.
I am trying to find what I can agree with you here. The most obvious is:"cuz this ain't getting us anywhere". I realize this is very frustrating to you. I can see and understand that many of our beliefs do go against your beliefs. In all fairness i assure you, your beliefs sound just as incomprehensible and unreasonable to us.
It all comes down to which is the truth. The Bible or the Qur'an. If you believe the Bible is true, it is impossible for you to believe the Qur'an. We believe the Qur'an is the truth and it is impossible for us to believe the Bible.
At the moment it seems that your arguments are beginning to be based on emotionalism.
To us that are watching, you seem to be trying to convince us. But, we are getting the impression that you are seeking to convince yourself that your beliefs are valid and that to prove your beliefs you now have a strong need to convince at least one Muslim that the Bible is true.
You see us as a challenge and you have a need to prove to yourself that the words of the Bible are sufficient to cause at least one of us to abandon Islam.
I doubt very much that you fully understand that we know in our hearts, through our faith and from the words of Allah(swt) that what you are mistakingly trying to lead us into is the road to eternal Hellfire. I know that you believe you are on the path to Paradise, but we know that is the path to eternal death and loss of heaven. We are all praying that Allah(swt) will be merciful and you will find the truth before it is too late.
Redeemed
Account Disabled
- Messages
- 753
- Reaction score
- 12
- Gender
- Male
- Religion
- Christianity
Re: Who is the Trinity to Christians & Muslims?
What is it I am saying that is causing you to think that I am looking for justification for what i believe. You are makiing me sound like I am waving in what I believe as a Christian. :enough!: Nothing is further from the truth. I am thinking that you are saying that to encourage yourself. Let me ask you a question. Who was the trinity to you when you were a Christian, and who is the trinity now that you are a Muslim and who was the trinity to you when you were a Buddist? Who was the trinity to Muhammad specifically if you even can answer that question? Give me a verse from the Qur'an if you can.
Last edited:
Re: Who is the Trinity to Christians & Muslims?
My concept of Allah is now such that it is unimaginable for Him to have a Son or to have became a human in order to suffer as Jesus is believed (by Christians) to have suffered on the cross in order to redeem man from his sins. It is unimaginable to me for God to be born of a woman and to die. To me the Glory of Allah is too much for humans to bear to look upon even if only one-millioneth (sp?) of Him was present in Jesus. Yet Christians believe that Jesus was 100% God and 100% human.
I do remember that as a Christian the emphasis in my worship was on Jesus and specifically him on the cross dying for my sins. As a Muslim I now disassociate from ever putting anyone or anything as equal with Allah. I see Jesus as a human, born of the Virgin Mary, a servant of Allah and His Messenger to the lost sheep of Israel. So, if it is as you say, "If we reject it, we simply sentence OURSELVES to an eternity paying for our own sins" then that is a choice that I have already made. Yes, it was a difficult thing for me to give up that security blanket of Jesus' blood, but an analogy for me now is realizing that Santa Claus doesn't really exist. Yes, it is an unimaginably scary/fearful thought to stand before Allah with nothing but my belief in One God and my puny attempts at worship such as prayer, fasting, and charity and my so-called good deeds. I am indeed at His Mercy.
You may find it hard to believe, but I believed that what you described was the truth until I was a senior in college. Others will question if I was sincere and had a "personal relationship" with Jesus. Well, I can't even answer that myself after 25 years, but it is difficult for me to imagine now that I once believed that way.
My concept of Allah is now such that it is unimaginable for Him to have a Son or to have became a human in order to suffer as Jesus is believed (by Christians) to have suffered on the cross in order to redeem man from his sins. It is unimaginable to me for God to be born of a woman and to die. To me the Glory of Allah is too much for humans to bear to look upon even if only one-millioneth (sp?) of Him was present in Jesus. Yet Christians believe that Jesus was 100% God and 100% human.
I do remember that as a Christian the emphasis in my worship was on Jesus and specifically him on the cross dying for my sins. As a Muslim I now disassociate from ever putting anyone or anything as equal with Allah. I see Jesus as a human, born of the Virgin Mary, a servant of Allah and His Messenger to the lost sheep of Israel. So, if it is as you say, "If we reject it, we simply sentence OURSELVES to an eternity paying for our own sins" then that is a choice that I have already made. Yes, it was a difficult thing for me to give up that security blanket of Jesus' blood, but an analogy for me now is realizing that Santa Claus doesn't really exist. Yes, it is an unimaginably scary/fearful thought to stand before Allah with nothing but my belief in One God and my puny attempts at worship such as prayer, fasting, and charity and my so-called good deeds. I am indeed at His Mercy.