"Views on Atonement for Sin."

[Phil12123]

Re: Who is the Trinity to Christians & Muslims?

you see the thing in Islam, is that Allah swt does not point at us you go to heaven, you go to hell, but the thing with the Qur'an and Sunnah is that it shows you the signs, the traps, the chararistics of one who will go to Hell, and one who will go to Heaven.
for example we don't and usually avoid calling a muslim a munafiq (hypocrit), who posseses hypocrit's characteristics, but we know that if you do certain things, you become a munafiq, but we don't point with fingers. so we know what makes you a hypocrit, but we don't put a stamp on the paper, to confirm for someone that he is a hypocrit. same is with wether we go to hell or heaven. We know what makes you win heaven, and what makes you go to Hell, but we don't confirm things, bc we are not the ones who do that. cuz Allah is the one who decides, who knows . We don't have enough knowledge to know people's hearts. So Allah on the Day of Judgment will judge people according to what they did, (even things smaller than the atom, as it says in the Qur'an) , according to what their hearts held, and if they deserve mercy, Allah will give them mercy, if not , He will not give them mercy. And Allah swt knows who he gives mercy.

the thing is that a person may be a very good muslim, do all good deeds, avoid haram stuff but we don't say "He will go to heaven", bc then I am like confirming God's decision. and I shouldn't. That's why we don't know. bc we can't confirm it, we are not the one who confirm things. But Allah swt tells us in Qur'an in many places, that who will deserve to go to heaven and who to hell.

please read all the verses, so you can understand what i'm trying to say.

[verses read, but omitted here to keep the size of this shorter]
ok , now I just posted some of them, cuz there are plenty, but you do you what I am trying to say, Allah swt tells us the signs, that make you recieve his mercy, or the traps, the ditches, which make you go to Hell. But that's why we don't confirm, bc we can say "Ok, he is a good muslim, he prays 5 times a day, he pays zakat, he fasts, performs pilgrimage, does this and that...so he deserves Jannah", now the problem with this is that, we don't have authority to say about someone that he will enter paradise.

an example:

when you apply for job, they say, you need to:

Have skills on such things
Have knowledge on such things
Be good in communication,
Be nice with people ....etc etc. as you usually see on job market.

now, you know what are the things which you need to have, to get the job, but can you garantee and say I will get that job?? no you can't, so your dutie is to fulfill those requirements, and then if you do , if they want, they will accept you to take the job.

I tried my best to explain. may Allah forgive me if I made a mistake somewhere.

Thank you for your explanation. Based on what you say, though, it sounds, again, like no Muslim can have any real assurance that he will go to heaven before Allah pronounces that verdict after the judgment. There are indeed verses that seem to give some assurance of mercy and forgiveness, but, again, it seems to boil down to a person's life---how he lived it, or more correctly, how Allah sees the life and judges it ("Allah on the Day of Judgment will judge people according to what they did, [even things smaller than the atom, as it says in the Qur'an], according to what their hearts held" etc.). The problem, of course, is sin and how we get it forgiven and whether we can KNOW it's forgiven, now before we get to the judgment.

We all sin and have need of forgiveness, as we said, daily if not hourly. For the Christian who is saved (received God's gift of eternal life and assured of going to heaven), he still needs forgiveness for those sins committed before he dies, not because his sins will send him to hell (since they are already paid for at the cross), but because his fellowship with God is broken by such sin. The promise a Christian has for such forgiveness is found in 1 John 1:9, which says, in context:

1 John 1:
6. If we say that we have fellowship with Him, and walk in darkness, we lie and do not practice the truth.
7. But if we walk in the light as He is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus Christ His Son cleanses us from all sin.
8. If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.
9. If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
10. If we say that we have not sinned, we make Him a liar, and His word is not in us.

I'm wondering if the Quran has something comparable, whereby there is a definite promise like that... if you do a..b..c.. then you have forgiveness (not hope to have, but really have, forgiveness NOW).

Peace

 

[Redeemed]

Re: Who is the Trinity to Christians & Muslims?

Thank you for your explanation. Based on what you say, though, it sounds, again, like no Muslim can have any real assurance that he will go to heaven before Allah pronounces that verdict after the judgment. There are indeed verses that seem to give some assurance of mercy and forgiveness, but, again, it seems to boil down to a person's life---how he lived it, or more correctly, how Allah sees the life and judges it ("Allah on the Day of Judgment will judge people according to what they did, [even things smaller than the atom, as it says in the Qur'an], according to what their hearts held" etc.). The problem, of course, is sin and how we get it forgiven and whether we can KNOW it's forgiven, now before we get to the judgment.

We all sin and have need of forgiveness, as we said, daily if not hourly. For the Christian who is saved (received God's gift of eternal life and assured of going to heaven), he still needs forgiveness for those sins committed before he dies, not because his sins will send him to hell (since they are already paid for at the cross), but because his fellowship with God is broken by such sin. The promise a Christian has for such forgiveness is found in 1 John 1:9, which says, in context:

1 John 1:
6. If we say that we have fellowship with Him, and walk in darkness, we lie and do not practice the truth.
7. But if we walk in the light as He is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus Christ His Son cleanses us from all sin.
8. If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.
9. If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
10. If we say that we have not sinned, we make Him a liar, and His word is not in us.

I'm wondering if the Quran has something comparable, whereby there is a definite promise like that... if you do a..b..c.. then you have forgiveness (not hope to have, but really have, forgiveness NOW).

Peace

The God we serve lets us know now where we will be spending all eternity. I wouldn't serve a God that won't let me know where I am going for eternity bc that god would be unjust to me. It is written, "I write these things unto you that you may know that you have eternal life and that life is in His Son." If you have the son you have life if you don't you don't have it sorry. God said, "This is my Son in whom I am well please, hear ye Him."

 

[Redeemed]

Re: Who is the Trinity to Christians & Muslims?

Remember it is not us Christians who ascribe unto God. It is God himself that does it.

 

[Grace Seeker]

Re: Who is the Trinity to Christians & Muslims?

Peace Gene,
To me it is no longer a question of why a Christian would revert to Islam it is a question of "How can a person truly love and follow Jesus(as) and not revert to Islam?"

I actually do understand that this is exactly where you are in your life now. And unlike vpb might think, I have no intention of trying to prove anything here either. At least not in the sense of trying to convince you that you made a mistake in reverting from Christianity to Islam. I don't feel a need to prove my faith, I am satisfied with proclaiming it as my faith and if you or someone else is interested I will share more. If you are not, well, within the context of this forum I have agreed not to proselytze and I intend to honor the agreement.

It is very difficult for a Christian to understand how and why a Christian would revert to Islam. What would it take for a Christian to give up the joy of a Personal Relationship with Jesus(as) and the guaranteed assurance of salvation? Why would a Christian willingly throw all of this away and jump into something with no assurance about anything, have to learn a new language and give up what they believe to be all chances of redemption?

It would take some very strong feelings and a very deep reassurance that nothing is lost and all is gained to make that leap. I doubt if many "weak" Christians would take that leap. A Christian that is weak in his faith as a Christian would probably be weak in faith even after reverting to Islam. A revert does not see his reversion as giving up Christianity a revert sees it as doing what Jesus(as) really told us to do and that is to worship the One True God(as) and to serve only Him. Although I only spent about 25 years as a member of a Christian denomination, I did believe Christianity held the truth and my life was a search to find the message Jesus(as) wanted people to learn. At no time did I ever loose love of Jesus(as) or the feeling of his word. Although I did learn to doubt the truth of the Churches that professed Christianity.

Woodrow, you said something in this last paragraph that is exactly what I was talking about in my last post. You said:

my life was a search to find the message Jesus(as) wanted people to learn.

That is what I suspected. You were looking for a message, when Christianity is not about a message but a relationship.

This is one reason I think that Christains and Muslims simply completely miss each other's points on this forum. From the Christian perspective, you can have the Injil that Muslims believe that Jesus preached, you could have it recorded on CD with Jesus himself signing to authenticate its message, and you still would not have Christianity simply because you had Jesus' message.

But if you had the message all wrong, but did have a living personal relationship with God in and through Jesus Christ in whom you placed your faith, then you would have Christianity.

Is it blind faith? I don't think so, while we might say that the faith we place in the accuracy of the message comes close to blind faith, the faith we put in Jesus is based on our knowing him personally. That is not blind, that is definitely based on personal knowledge and acquaintance; it is relational faith.


As far as my views being Kufr, I find it interesting that no Muslim who knows me personally (from actually meeting me face-to-face) has ever said that. Surely I seem that way on here as we argue over detailed points of theology. But Muslims who have lived in my home (and I would guess know me best) have said that indeed they cannot call me as such. Perhaps they are simply hoping the best for me because of our personal relationship. Or perhaps they know something about me that those who find my views to be shirk have not yet looked deep enough to see.

I suppose only Allah knows.

 

[Woodrow]

Re: Who is the Trinity to Christians & Muslims?

What is it I am saying that is causing you to think that I am looking for justification for what i believe.

At the moment you are convinced that you believe that you are offering a great gift to those that do not have it. If we deny accepting what you see as a gift you will probably see yourself as weak and incapable of spreading what you believe to be the truth. It is by convincing others that you will be reinforced of the power of what you believe.

You are makiing me sound like I am waving in what I believe as a Christian. :enough!: Nothing is further from the truth.

Look at your posts. Do they not seem to be the words of a person who is waving his beliefs as a banner to those who believe different. In the past few days your posts have become much more emotional and seem to indicate frustration and possibly even some anger at your words not being headed.

I am thinking that you are saying that to encourage yourself.

Of course I am. This is an Islamic forum and my open goal is to promote Islam. I have 2 desires here one is to help remove the misconceptions people have about Islam and the other is to pray that readers will learn enough about Islam to make an educated choice as accepting or rejecting it.

Let me ask you a question. Who was the trinity to you when you were a Christian, and who is the trinity now that you are a Muslim and who was the trinity to you when you were a Buddist?

Who was the trinity to you when you were a Christian,

When I was a Christian I saw the trinity as a single God(swt) revealed in three persons, The Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit.

and who is the trinity now that you are a Muslim

Now I see the concept of the trinity as an erroneous attempt to attribute Human Characteristics to God(swt). I believe people have made the error of attributing Godlike characteristics to a wonderful Prophet(PBUH) and have by doing so attempted to create God(swt) in their own image. I do believe most if not all Christians do believe they are worshiping a single God(swt) but they fail to see that they have established a false image that they believe is God(swt)

who was the trinity to you when you were a Buddist?

That is a moot point, because as a Buddhist I saw God(swt) as being the fabric of the universe and not as an entity. Also I was not a very good Buddhist, I was more of an agnostic in search of the truth. I had tried various Christian beliefs and found them all to be preaching a false message and demeaning the true nature of Isa(as). Throughout my 40 years as a self proclaimed Buddhist I did attend and belonged to several different Christian denominations at various times. The one I felt the closest to and the most Christlike is the UMC and I do still have a warm feeling to them as I found them to be truly sincere in their beliefs and fully understanding of my not being receptive to their beliefs.

Christianity ceased to be Christian when people began worshiping Isa(as)

Who was the trinity to Muhammad specifically if you even can answer that question? Give me a verse from the Qur'an if you can.

The concept of the Trinity is not a teaching from God(swt) Why would it be in the Qur'an or even of any meaning to Muhammad(PBUH)?

5:111. "And behold! I inspired the disciples to have faith in Me and Mine Messenger: they said, 'We have faith, and do thou bear witness that we bow to Allah as Muslims'". S P C
5:112. Behold! the disciples, said: "O Jesus the son of Mary! can thy Lord send down to us a table set (with viands) from heaven?" Said Jesus: "Fear Allah, if ye have faith." S P C

5:113. They said: "We only wish to eat thereof and satisfy our hearts, and to know that thou hast indeed told us the truth; and that we ourselves may be witnesses to the miracle." S P
5:114. Said Jesus the son of Mary: "O Allah our Lord! Send us from heaven a table set (with viands), that there may be for us - for the first and the last of us - a solemn festival and a sign from thee; and provide for our sustenance, for thou art the best Sustainer (of our needs)." S P C

5:115. Allah said: "I will send it down unto you: But if any of you after that resisteth faith, I will punish him with a penalty such as I have not inflicted on any one among all the peoples." S P C
5:116. And behold! Allah will say: "O Jesus the son of Mary! Didst thou say unto men, worship me and my mother as gods in derogation of Allah'?" He will say: "Glory to Thee! never could I say what I had no right (to say). Had I said such a thing, thou wouldst indeed have known it. Thou knowest what is in my heart, Thou I know not what is in Thine. For Thou knowest in full all that is hidden." S P C

5:117. "Never said I to them aught except what Thou didst command me to say, to wit, 'worship Allah, my Lord and your Lord'; and I was a witness over them whilst I dwelt amongst them; when Thou didst take me up Thou wast the Watcher over them, and Thou art a witness to all things. S P C


Yusuf Ali's Quran Translation

 

[vpb]

Re: Who is the Trinity to Christians & Muslims?

OK, I understand what you are saying, but it is me you don't understand and I have no idea what you mean by don't go to prophecy cuz I know who will fail. Jesus never fails and it is written: "Let every man be a liar but God's word is true."

Astagfirullah. I never said what Jesus said was false, bc He was a pious person, He was the Apostle of Allah and an excellect example for the Bani Israel, for the nation he went for. And Jesus could not lie or speak not the truth. But what fails, is not Jesus, but what fails is Paul, John, Mark, Mathew,.......

What ever Muhammad says you must do.

Of course, cuz he is our only model we should follow.

59:7. "And whatsoever the Messenger (Muhammad, saaws, gives you, take it and whatsoever he forbids you, abstain from it."

​

3:31:. "Say (O Muhammad to mankind): ‘If you (really) love Allah, then follow me.’"

2:120. Never will the Jews or the Christians be satisfied with thee unless thou follow their form of religion. Say: "The Guidance of Allah,-that is the (only) Guidance." Wert thou to follow their desires after the knowledge which hath reached thee, then wouldst thou find neither Protector nor helper against Allah.

Surah An-Najm:
1. By the Star when it goes down,-
2. Your Companion is neither astray nor being misled.
3. Nor does he say (aught) of (his own) Desire.


ok, i just posted two verse , just for a quick demonstration ,
to show that The Prophet Muhammed does not speak of his own desire, so every command he gives, is basically what Allah swt ordered , directly or indirectly.

That certainly sounds like god like powers to me.

if I am the project manager, and the president of company is telling me to go and give some orders to the workers, does it mean that I am the president?? NO. bc I don't make the orders, I don't issue that permission to give such orders, etc.

If he said he was god you would believe it, but you don't realize you would.

even hypothetically is impossible. bc otherwise Muhammed saws would contradict himself. the Qur'an was sent, in order to correct the beliefs of the people , ie. those who started worshiping idols, the christians who started worshipping Jesus....", so the Qur'an was sent to correct people's belief to worship one God, without partners and rivals. how is it possible that Muhammed could claim that?? it's impossible, logicaly impossible. I don't know how you come to these conlusions.

But, I would be glad to get into it with you on prohecies cuz this ain't getting us anywhere. Other Christians see it this way too, except I am the only nut to come out with it like this.

No , where are not getting into prophecies, bc it is already known that bible contains a full list of unfulfilled prophecies. and prophecy is not the MAIN tool to identify if the book is God's word or not. cuz then Nostradamus's book should be the word of God. Prophecies can just can be as a support that is included in the box of evidences for proving that a book is word of God, but it's not the main thing.

Who was the trinity to Muhammad specifically if you even can answer that question? Give me a verse from the Qur'an if you can.

do you really think Qur'an should now start explain on detail about every single religion??, Qur'an was not sent to talk about other religions, it was sent to warn people against joining partnership to Allah swt. That was the main objective of sending Muhammed saws as a Messenger and the book , The Qur'an.

8. Qur'an from its beggining to its end calls on tawheed

Ibn Qajim Al Xhauzije says : "Every ayat (verse) of the Qur'an contains tawheed on itself , or it give arguments for the tawheed, or calls to it. Qur'an either tells us about Allah, His names and attributes, which is tawheed Asmaa ua Sifaat, or it calls on unification (Oneness of Allah) of Allah on actions while not joining partnership, which is tawheed Uluhija and Rububija, or it contains orders or forbidding things, which are from the truth and fulfilling of tawheed."

for full article: http://www.islamicboard.com/islamic-beliefs/43570-importance-tawheed.html

I'm wondering if the Quran has something comparable, whereby there is a definite promise like that... if you do a..b..c.. then you have forgiveness (not hope to have, but really have, forgiveness NOW).

I don't know what you really mean with 'definite', bc I showed on the verses on the previous post, but let's take an example:

4. Tawheed is the main reason for the man to enter Jannah (Paradise)


It is transmitted from Ubaidah Ibn Samit (r.a) that the Messenger of Allah saws said: "Who testifies that there is no diety of worship except Allah, Who is without rival or partner, and that Muhammed is His Messenger, and that paradise and hellfire are true, Allah swt will put him in Jannah (Paradise)." [Bukhari]

Transmitted from Utban that the Messenger of Allah saws said: "Allah swt forbided the hellfire to have a person who said the word "La ilahe ilall-llah" with sincerity."
[Bukhari]

In this context, it is worthy to mention the word of Ibn Taymyah to comment and understand the above hadiths:

"These hadiths is for those people that said this word and died with this word, work with this word, say it with sincerty, convinced without having any doubts or dilemma and with loyalty"

Hasan al Basri has been asked that there are some people that say that whoever pronounces the word "La ilahe il-lall-llah" will enter Jannah? He answered: "He who pronounces the word "La ilahe il-lall-llah" , practices the conditions and become subject of the orders of this word will enter Jannah."

When Vahb Ibn Munabih answered the question: "Is the word "La ilahe il-lall-llah" the key of the Jannah"? He said every key has its pins,so if it comes with the key and its pins, the door will be opened, otherwise if it comes with key without its pins, it will not be opened".

for full article: http://www.islamicboard.com/islamic-beliefs/43570-importance-tawheed.html


so we are seeing an example, we know that if you do that you enter Paradise, but we can't confirm and point with fingers to individuals, as I said on the previous post.

The God we serve lets us know now where we will be spending all eternity. I wouldn't serve a God that won't let me know where I am going for eternity bc that god would be an unjust to me. It is written, "I write these things unto you that you may know that you have eternal life and that life is in His Son." If you have the son you have life if you don't you don't have it sorry. God said, "This is my Son in whom I am well please, hear ye Him."

Well, it seems injustice to you, but when you do the exam paper, you have to wait till you see the results, you can a little bit guess how good you did, but u can't confirm the grade that you will take.
but the difference between Muslims and non-muslims is, that muslims don't care about this world, cuz this world is just a bus station, we are on the road, so we are just here to get as much points as possible, and inshaallah te ala go to Jannah the other life.

 

[vpb]

Re: Who is the Trinity to Christians & Muslims?

Remember it is not us Christians who ascribe unto God. It is God himself that does it.

from a muslim point of view, your statement is false. Bc Allah swt never told Jesus a.s to tell people to worship him (Jesus a.s), and Jesus a.s never said "Worship me", and Jesus never lied and went against the message of Allah.
but it is people like Paul and others who came up with this idea.
Allah knows best.

Is it blind faith? I don't think so, while we might say that the faith we place in the accuracy of the message comes close to blind faith, the faith we put in Jesus is based on our knowing him personally. That is not blind, that is definitely based on personal knowledge and acquaintance; it is relational faith.

well if the book is corrupted or not, if you know some history about JEsus a.s or not, and if all this doesn't matter, than what could be other than blind faith?? following something without any proof. not even a single one.

As far as my views being Kufr, I find it interesting that no Muslim who knows me personally (from actually meeting me face-to-face) has ever said that. Surely I seem that way on here as we argue over detailed points of theology. But Muslims who have lived in my home (and I would guess know me best) have said that indeed they cannot call me as such. Perhaps they are simply hoping the best for me because of our personal relationship. Or perhaps they know something about me that those who find my views to be shirk have not yet looked deep enough to see.

of course, I mean I can't come up and just say "hey you are doing kufr", or find someone on the road and tell him, but if we engage on a conversation, then I have to tell you that you are doing kufr, and it's my responsebility to tell you . and you may percieve it as a bad thing, but it's a good thing, cuz it is trying to remind you and keep away from going Hell. maybe you think it's a bad thing now, but later you will realize that it was a good thing. but anyways what's the point of it being a good reminder when you don't believe on the message. so don't get offended when somebody calls you a kafir or that you are commiting kufr. it's just words, to explain that you have disbelief according to a muslim. now what tone he/she uses to tell you that word, that's a different thing.

 

[vpb]

Re: Who is the Trinity to Christians & Muslims?

btw, forgot to explain the term Tawheed.

Tawheed = Oneness of Allah swt. ;D

 

[Phil12123]

Re: Who is the Trinity to Christians & Muslims?

You may find it hard to believe, but I believed that what you described was the truth until I was a senior in college. Others will question if I was sincere and had a "personal relationship" with Jesus. Well, I can't even answer that myself after 25 years, but it is difficult for me to imagine now that I once believed that way.

My concept of Allah is now such that it is unimaginable for Him to have a Son or to have became a human in order to suffer as Jesus is believed (by Christians) to have suffered on the cross in order to redeem man from his sins. It is unimaginable to me for God to be born of a woman and to die. To me the Glory of Allah is too much for humans to bear to look upon even if only one-millioneth (sp?) of Him was present in Jesus. Yet Christians believe that Jesus was 100% God and 100% human.

I do remember that as a Christian the emphasis in my worship was on Jesus and specifically him on the cross dying for my sins. As a Muslim I now disassociate from ever putting anyone or anything as equal with Allah. I see Jesus as a human, born of the Virgin Mary, a servant of Allah and His Messenger to the lost sheep of Israel. So, if it is as you say, "If we reject it, we simply sentence OURSELVES to an eternity paying for our own sins" then that is a choice that I have already made. Yes, it was a difficult thing for me to give up that security blanket of Jesus' blood, but an analogy for me now is realizing that Santa Claus doesn't really exist. Yes, it is an unimaginably scary/fearful thought to stand before Allah with nothing but my belief in One God and my puny attempts at worship such as prayer, fasting, and charity and my so-called good deeds. I am indeed at His Mercy.

Wow, you hit the nail on the head when you say, it is an unimaginably scary/fearful thought to stand before Allah with nothing but your belief in One God and your attempts at worship, etc. I am afraid for you, and I really mean that. I wish there was something I could do to help you see the error of your way in giving up that "security blanket" as you call it. Only the blood of Jesus can wash away your sins and you have cast it off. Wow. Scary can hardly describe it.

And for what? To embrace "Tawheed"? But is believing there is one God (which Christians believe too, believe it or not) going to save you from hell? Are you any better off than monotheistic Jews?

This verse comes to mind: James 2:19 - - "You believe that there is one God. You do well. Even the demons believe and tremble!" The demons don't just believe there is one God---they KNOW it. But that doesn't save them.

Peace

 

[vpb]

Re: Who is the Trinity to Christians & Muslims?

And for what? To embrace "Tawheed"?

if you would now about the sweetness of tawheed, even if you wouldn't have arms/legs, you would drag yourself on the ground, to reach it
I can imagine how MustafaMc feels. once you embrace tha concept of tawheed, you wouldn't give it up , for nothing. It's a very worthy thing. I know that everyones tries to put the 'sweetness' of their faiths in front, but there is no such things as tawheed. it's unique. you can't find something similar to it nowhere.. It's a thing, which nothing can reach its degree.

if you want , read this article:
http://www.islamicboard.com/islamic-beliefs/43570-importance-tawheed.html

 

[Malaikah]

Re: Who is the Trinity to Christians & Muslims?

Wow, you hit the nail on the head when you say, it is an unimaginably scary/fearful thought to stand before Allah with nothing but your belief in One God and your attempts at worship, etc.

It is not scary, because Allah has promised us forgiveness as long as we are sincere, and He made it so that our actions can save us, by His Mercy. Even thought our actions are never enough to save us from Hell and admit us into Paradise, He will let them be anyway.

Now what is scary is standing in front of Allah with unforgiven sins and few good deeds.

By the way, Allah has promised that 70,000 times 70,000 Muslims will be admitted into Paradise without being put to trial at all. May He make us of them, ameen.

I am afraid for you, and I really mean that. I wish there was something I could do to help you see the error of your way in giving up that "security blanket" as you call it. Only the blood of Jesus can wash away your sins and you have cast it off. Wow. Scary can hardly describe it.

We are afraid for you also, we might be facing Allah with nothing but your good deeds, but you will be facing Him having worshipped other than Him.......

 

[vpb]

Re: Who is the Trinity to Christians & Muslims?

We are afraid for you also, we might be facing Allah with nothing but your good deeds, but you will be facing Him having worshipped other than Him.......

4:47
O you who have been given the Scripture (Jews and Christians)! Believe in what We have revealed (to Muhammad SAW) confirming what is (already) with you, before We efface faces (by making them like the back of necks; without nose, mouth, eyes, etc.) and turn them hindwards, or curse them as We cursed the Sabbath­breakers. And the Commandment of Allah is always executed.

4:48
Verily, Allah forgives not that partners should be set up with him in worship, but He forgives except that (anything else) to whom He pleases, and whoever sets up partners with Allah in worship, he has indeed invented a tremendous sin.

 

[Woodrow]

Re: Who is the Trinity to Christians & Muslims?

Phil of course I will see things different than you do. But here is my perspective of Paul's letter to the Galatians.

Galatians 1 (King James Version)
King James Version (KJV)

Public Domain
[A Public Domain Bible] [KJV at Zondervan] [Zondervan]

Galatians 1

1Paul, an apostle, (not of men, neither by man, but by Jesus Christ, and God the Father, who raised him from the dead

2And all the brethren which are with me, unto the churches of Galatia:

3Grace be to you and peace from God the Father, and from our Lord Jesus Christ,

4Who gave himself for our sins, that he might deliver us from this present evil world, according to the will of God and our Father:

5To whom be glory for ever and ever. Amen.

6I marvel that ye are so soon removed from him that called you into the grace of Christ unto another gospel:

7Which is not another; but there be some that trouble you, and would pervert the gospel of Christ.

8But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed.

9As we said before, so say I now again, if any man preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have received, let him be accursed.

10For do I now persuade men, or God? or do I seek to please men? for if I yet pleased men, I should not be the servant of Christ.

11But I certify you, brethren, that the gospel which was preached of me is not after man.

12For I neither received it of man, neither was I taught it, but by the revelation of Jesus Christ.

13For ye have heard of my conversation in time past in the Jews' religion, how that beyond measure I persecuted the church of God, and wasted it:

14And profited in the Jews' religion above many my equals in mine own nation, being more exceedingly zealous of the traditions of my fathers.

15But when it pleased God, who separated me from my mother's womb, and called me by his grace,

16To reveal his Son in me, that I might preach him among the heathen; immediately I conferred not with flesh and blood:

17Neither went I up to Jerusalem to them which were apostles before me; but I went into Arabia, and returned again unto Damascus.

18Then after three years I went up to Jerusalem to see Peter, and abode with him fifteen days.

19But other of the apostles saw I none, save James the Lord's brother.

20Now the things which I write unto you, behold, before God, I lie not.

21Afterwards I came into the regions of Syria and Cilicia;

22And was unknown by face unto the churches of Judaea which were in Christ:

23But they had heard only, That he which persecuted us in times past now preacheth the faith which once he destroyed.

24And they glorified God in me.

What I see is that this was occurring at the time of Paul. This is not a prophecy of things that were to occur but are events that took place in the churches of Galatian.

To me this verifies that the gospel was already being altered. the people of Galatia were not using the same words Paul was preaching.

Now I also see something else strange it does not appear that Paul was using the Gospels of John, Mark, Matthew and Luke in his preaching.

11But I certify you, brethren, that the gospel which was preached of me is not after man.

12For I neither received it of man, neither was I taught it, but by the revelation of Jesus Christ.

To me this is evidence that Paul was preaching something different than what was preached by Jesus(as). I am certain he believes he was revealed this directly from Jesus(as) But......??????? What if it was not Jesus(as) Paul heard?

 

[Redeemed]

Re: Who is the Trinity to Christians & Muslims?

At the moment you are convinced that you believe that you are offering a great gift to those that do not have it. If we deny accepting what you see as a gift you will probably see yourself as weak and incapable of spreading what you believe to be the truth. It is by convincing others that you will be reinforced of the power of what you believe.




Look at your posts. Do they not seem to be the words of a person who is waving his beliefs as a banner to those who believe different. In the past few days your posts have become much more emotional and seem to indicate frustration and possibly even some anger at your words not being headed.



Of course I am. This is an Islamic forum and my open goal is to promote Islam. I have 2 desires here one is to help remove the misconceptions people have about Islam and the other is to pray that readers will learn enough about Islam to make an educated choice as accepting or rejecting it.




Who was the trinity to you when you were a Christian,

When I was a Christian I saw the trinity as a single God(swt) revealed in three persons, The Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit.

and who is the trinity now that you are a Muslim

Now I see the concept of the trinity as an erroneous attempt to attribute Human Characteristics to God(swt). I believe people have made the error of attributing Godlike characteristics to a wonderful Prophet(PBUH) and have by doing so attempted to create God(swt) in their own image. I do believe most if not all Christians do believe they are worshiping a single God(swt) but they fail to see that they have established a false image that they believe is God(swt)

who was the trinity to you when you were a Buddist?

That is a moot point, because as a Buddhist I saw God(swt) as being the fabric of the universe and not as an entity. Also I was not a very good Buddhist, I was more of an agnostic in search of the truth. I had tried various Christian beliefs and found them all to be preaching a false message and demeaning the true nature of Isa(as). Throughout my 40 years as a self proclaimed Buddhist I did attend and belonged to several different Christian denominations at various times. The one I felt the closest to and the most Christlike is the UMC and I do still have a warm feeling to them as I found them to be truly sincere in their beliefs and fully understanding of my not being receptive to their beliefs.

Christianity ceased to be Christian when people began worshiping Isa(as)



The concept of the Trinity is not a teaching from God(swt) Why would it be in the Qur'an or even of any meaning to Muhammad(PBUH)?

I don't want you to have that impressioon of me because its false.
Where is it in the Qur'an that can back up why Muslims believe that Mary was part of the trinity?

 

[vpb]

Re: Who is the Trinity to Christians & Muslims?

His view of Christianity may have been only of the Catholics who, to him, were no better than those who worshipped many gods.

you don't get the point. It's not his views. bc he didn't speak of his views or desires. He spoke what was revelaed to him . So he didn't speak about christianity or anything from his own conclusions.

I find it interesting that the myth did not totally discount crucifixion, or that Jesus was going to be crucified, or that someone was in fact crucified. Those historical facts remained intact. The historical fact that it was Jesus was simply denied, though there is NO historical evidence to support that.

do u have historical facts that Jesus was crucified that you are saying there is no historical fact that he was not crucified?

No historian of that era comes forth to say Judas or anyone else was crucified instead of Jesus. It is merely Muhammad's word that the angel Gabriel told him that, and nothing more.

in the problem with Jesus's crucifiction, history is too young to remember. and Qur'an does not deny crucifiction as an event, but it denies that Jesus a.s was on the cross. So it appeared to them that it was Jesus a.s , but in fact He wasnt. Do you have any evidence that Jesus a.s himself was on the cross??

 

[Phil12123]

Re: Who is the Trinity to Christians & Muslims?

Phil of course I will see things different than you do. But here is my perspective of Paul's letter to the Galatians.

What I see is that this was occurring at the time of Paul. This is not a prophecy of things that were to occur but are events that took place in the churches of Galatian.

To me this verifies that the gospel was already being altered. the people of Galatia were not using the same words Paul was preaching.

Now I also see something else strange it does not appear that Paul was using the Gospels of John, Mark, Matthew and Luke in his preaching.

To me this is evidence that Paul was preaching something different than what was preached by Jesus(as). I am certain he believes he was revealed this directly from Jesus(as) But......??????? What if it was not Jesus(as) Paul heard?

In his letter to the Galatians, Paul was addressing them in particular and the situtation that existed there. There were Judaizers who were possibly Jewish converts to Christianity but they were telling Gentile converts that they had to be circumcised and obey the law of Moses in addition to believing in Jesus and His death for their sins. Paul never preached circumcism or Law-keeping as part of the Gospel of the grace of God, and therefore condemned the false teachers who sought to bring new believers back into bondage.

The Gospel that Paul preached is defined and spelled out in his first letter to the Corinthians:

1 Corinthians 15:
1. Moreover, brethren, I declare to you the gospel which I preached to you, which also you received and in which you stand,
2. by which also you are saved, if you hold fast that word which I preached to you unless you believed in vain.
3. For I delivered to you first of all that which I also received: that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures,
4. and that He was buried, and that He rose again the third day according to the Scriptures,
5. and that He was seen by Cephas, then by the twelve.
6. After that He was seen by over five hundred brethren at once, of whom the greater part remain to the present, but some have fallen asleep.
7. After that He was seen by James, then by all the apostles.
8. Then last of all He was seen by me also, as by one born out of due time.
9. For I am the least of the apostles, who am not worthy to be called an apostle, because I persecuted the church of God.

The Gospel that Paul received from Jesus Christ is simply that "Christ died for our sins...and that He was buried, and that He rose again the third day." His statement that he did not receive it from men is simply to let them know that this wasn't just his opinion or somone else's opinion but the Truth of God that he got from Jesus Himself. There is nothing inconsistent between this statement of the Gospel and that which the original 11 apostles (later 12) were told to go into all the world and preach (Matt. 28; Mark 16; etc.).

Luke 24:
44. Then He said to them, "These are the words which I spoke to you while I was still with you, that all things must be fulfilled which were written in the Law of Moses and the Prophets and the Psalms concerning Me.''
45. And He opened their understanding, that they might comprehend the Scriptures.
46. Then He said to them, "Thus it is written, and thus it was necessary for the Christ to suffer and to rise from the dead the third day,
47. "and that repentance and remission of sins should be preached in His name to all nations, beginning at Jerusalem.
48. "And you are witnesses of these things.
49. "Behold, I send the Promise of My Father upon you; but tarry in the city of Jerusalem until you are endued with power from on high.''
50. And He led them out as far as Bethany, and He lifted up His hands and blessed them.
51. Now it came to pass, while He blessed them, that He was parted from them and carried up into heaven.
52. And they worshiped Him, and returned to Jerusalem with great joy,
53. and were continually in the temple praising and blessing God. Amen.

Here, after His crucifixion and resurrection, Jesus fully explains why it was necessary for Him to suffer and die and rise from the dead, all in fulfillment of what was written of Him in the Law of Moses, the Prophets, and the Psalms. His own disciples did not understand until then, though He had told them in advance that He would be crucified and rise from the dead:

Matthew 16:
21. From that time Jesus began to show to His disciples that He must go to Jerusalem, and suffer many things from the elders and chief priests and scribes, and be killed, and be raised again the third day.
22. Then Peter took Him aside and began to rebuke Him, saying, "Far be it from You, Lord; this shall not happen to You!''
23. But He turned and said to Peter, "Get behind Me, Satan! You are an offense to Me, for you are not mindful of the things of God, but the things of men.''

Notice v. 21, how He told them what would happen to Him, but notice also vv.22-23 and what appears to be a harsh rebuke of Peter by Jesus. The spirit that moved Peter to say, No, this will never happen to you, is exactly the same spirit that told Muhammad that No, it never happened to Jesus. Notice the identity of the spirit in v. 23.

 

[NoName55]

Re: Who is the Trinity to Christians & Muslims?

what was I supposed to post from the hadith

and what would be the point if it is not ne4ccessarily true

Then, perhaps stop posting lies in the first place? or ought to be made to stop?

 

[Redeemed]

Re: Who is the Trinity to Christians & Muslims?

Then, perhaps stop posting lies in the first place? or ought to be made to stop?

First of all, that post wasn't directed at you and what lies? Very one on this forum knows I spoke the truth

 

[Woodrow]

Re: Who is the Trinity to Christians & Muslims?

Very, very interesting, You can see the difference from the moon. I can see the difference too the Son is bigger than the moon:laugh: By the way, what was I supposed to post from the hadith,:exhausted :? and what would be the point if it is not neccessarily true:? :rollseyes

The hadith requires who it was from (ie: Bukhari, Dawud etc) plus the the Book, Paragraph and line. Like this for example.

Shahi Bukhari.
Book 3. Knowledge.


Volumn 001, Book 003, Hadith Number 056.


None of us have ever heard of a Hadith that contains that and can not find it.


The point if it is not necessarily true, would mean there is no verification for the statement.

 

[vpb]

Re: Who is the Trinity to Christians & Muslims?

2:23. And if ye are in doubt as to what We have revealed from time to time to Our servant, then produce a Sura like thereunto; and call your witnesses or helpers (If there are any) besides Allah, if your (doubts) are true.

3:7. He it is Who has sent down to thee the Book: In it are verses basic or fundamental (of established meaning); they are the foundation of the Book: others are allegorical. But those in whose hearts is perversity follow the part thereof that is allegorical, seeking discord, and searching for its hidden meanings, but no one knows its hidden meanings except Allah. And those who are firmly grounded in knowledge say: "We believe in the Book; the whole of it is from our Lord:" and none will grasp the Message except men of understanding.

7:1. Praise be Allah, Who created the heavens and the earth, and made the darkness and the light. Yet those who reject Faith hold (others) as equal, with their Guardian-Lord.
7:2. He it is created you from clay, and then decreed a stated term (for you). And there is in His presence another determined term; yet ye doubt within yourselves!