If

[snakelegs]

Because those who have accepted Jesus as their saviour know. Theyve been told. So it's knowlage.

oh :rollseyes

 

[barney]

You're good at this, wanna join the club.

Nahh, i'm cool thanks.

 

[Woodrow]

I don't need to know, I already do. For me to share what I believe I need to know where their heart is.

Do you understand the biblical meaning of Grace?

It wasn't that long back I was a very devout Christian, I still remember the meaning of grace. Actually using the Christian concept of Grace it has much the same connotation of my Islamic concept of Allah's (swt) Mercy.

We can't steal it, earn it or deserve it, but when we receive it, it opens the door for Allah(swt) to remove our sins and allow us to enter Heaven. we have faith that Allah(swt) will bestow his mercy upon us.
Some of the signs of being filled with knowledge of Allah's(swt) mercy is our want to do good deed for the joy of doing them and our desire to show Allah(swt) we are thankfull for his mercy.

4) The Use of the word Grace by Christ
How often would you see Christ saying "grace" in the King James Bible? - The answer is zero! Christ never says "grace" in the King James Bible!


5) Paul's Use of the word Grace
Paul uses the grace word 97 times, and in the Pre-Solomonic sense (favorable attitude of God).

Summary of Lesson:-

1. Grace is a "Favourable Attitude" bestowed by the greater (God) upon the lesser (ourselves).
2. This favourable attitude is a gift and cannot be earned by anything we do, except for one thing...
3. We do have to have faith!

Source: http://www.easyvigour.net.nz/religious/h_grace.htm



I see it as:

1. Allah's (SWT) Mercy is a "Favourable Attitude" bestowed by Allah(swt) upon the lesser (ourselves).
2. This favourable attitude is a gift and cannot be earned by anything we do, except for one thing...
3. We do have to have faith!

 

[north_malaysian]

As bro Woodrow said, it'd be arrogant to assume I know I'm going to heaven

I think it's a sin to assume that "I'm so TOTALLY go to heaven".

 

[Woodrow]

I think it's a sin to assume that "I'm so TOTALLY go to heaven".

Even a lot of the Early Christians believed it was the "Sin of Presumption" to assume to know you are going to Heaven. I know it was until the 1960s in the Catholic, Greek Othodox, Russian Orthodox, and Episcopalian Churches and may still be. ( I was attending those in the 1940s and 50s) I was Roman Catholic, One grand mother was Russian Orthodox, but she often went to a Greek orthodox Church, my best friend was Episcopalian, so I got dragged around a bit)

I believe it first began being said in the American Baptist Churches of the 1800s. I will try to find some verification of when it first became commonly used among Christians.

 

[Camomilla]

Masha Allah!
May Allah(SWT) reward u brother!:thumbs_up :thumbs_up

All I know is Allah(swt) will never ask me to do what he has not given me the ability to do.

I have full faith that He will judge my behavior on the basis of the abilities and understandings he has given me.

There is no such thing as chances for heaven or hell. That is similar to a lottery.


The decisions of Allah(swt) are fair and just and I see know reason why I should not put my trust in what He has said and whatever he does.

I do not need to know if I am going to heaven or hell, I do need to know how to do my best to try to understand what Allah(swt) expects of me and that is laid out in the Qur'an and the Ahadith.

I do not understand your apparant need to Know that you are going to heaven.

 

[Woodrow]

When did Christians start saying they "Know they are going to Heaven?" over half of the people who call themselves Christian do not believe that.

The Sin of Presumption

Catholicism maintains that believing you are assured of going to heaven when you die is to commit the sin of presumption:
"There are two kinds of presumption. Either man presumes upon his own capacities, (hoping to be able to save himself without help from on high), or he presumes upon God's almighty power or his mercy (hoping to obtain his forgiveness without conversion and glory without merit." Pg. 507, #2092

I know Catholics are not Christians and the fact the majority of those who call themselves Christian saying it is a sin does not mean it is a sin.

Now the Question comes as to when did Christians begin saying that. Since the Catholics didn't say that it must have begun after Martin Luther and the reformation.

What do Lutherans say?

I can't seem to find anything in Lutheran beliefs that say they know they are going to heaven.

Lutheran Beliefs
o God saves us through his GRACE, given as an unmerited favor.
o We are redeemed not by our own good works but through our FAITH in the saving works of Jesus Christ.
o The BIBLE is the inspired Word of God and is the source of authority for faith and life.
o By our BAPTISM we are initiated into the priesthood of all believers. We are called to confess Christ as Lord and Savior. We are called to be ministers to one another.
o God’s GRACE and MERCY come to us by way of the Holy Spirit.
o We are called to SERVE, and by serving we show our gratitude to God.

Source: http://www.stpauls-lutheran.com/beliefs.shtml


I know the Baptists believe that they know they are going to Heaven., but let us see what else they believe:

Voluntarism: Although the group is named for their position on baptism, in fact it is their position on voluntarism and the independence of local churches which may be the most important characteristic of Baptist churches. Baptist tradition holds that authority in matters of religion and faith rests first with the individual baptized believer and second with the local congregation of believers — not a religious hierarchy, religious tradition, or even religious texts.

Source: http://atheism.about.com/od/baptistssouthernbaptists/a/baptisthistory_4.htm

interesting, what else?

VII. Baptism and the Lord's Supper

Christian baptism is the immersion of a believer in water in the name of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit. It is an act of obedience symbolizing the believer's faith in a crucified, buried, and risen Saviour, the believer's death to sin, the burial of the old life, and the resurrection to walk in newness of life in Christ Jesus. It is a testimony to his faith in the final resurrection of the dead. Being a church ordinance, it is prerequisite to the privileges of church membership and to the Lord's Supper.

Source: http://www.sbc.net/bfm/bfm2000.asp

Sounds like it would have been a chore for any body North of the Arctic Circle to become a Baptist. What else is interesting?

Pastor claims church voted to reject black membership, resigns

8/26/2006 8:34:40 AM
Daily Journal


BY CHARITY GORDON


Daily Journal


SALTILLO - A pastor who says his congregation voted not to accept black membership has resigned. The church says it never made such a decision.


The Rev. John Stevens says Fellowship Baptist Church in Saltillo voted not to approve blacks as members during a scheduled Sunday night business meeting Aug. 6. Because of the decision, Stevens stepped down from the Baptist Missionary Alliance congregation that has an average Sunday morning attendance of 30 people.

Source: http://www.djournal.com/pages/archive.asp?ID=226460

Racism beyond the grave - controversy over an 'all-white' cemetery
Christian Century, April 17, 1996

THE TOP social policy official of the Southern Baptist Convention has harshly criticized an all-white Southern Baptist church in Georgia whose leaders wanted to exhume the body of a baby from a church cemetery after learning that the child was biracial. Officials of Barnetts Creek Baptist Church in Thomasville, Georgia, reversed, their plan after pressure from congregants who were alerted to the situation by news media.

Source: http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m1058/is_n13_v113/ai_18226920

Implicit in all this showboaty amending and resolving was the message that brotherly love is morally relative, and a message like that advances a tacit tolerance for prejudice. Racism itself is as knotted up with the history of Southern Baptists as it is with the history of Dixie. Just prior to the Civil War, as Southern states were breaking from the Union to allow its citizens to continue to own slaves, Southern Baptists broke away from Baptists in the North to allow their missionaries to own slaves. After the war and on through the civil rights struggle, as Southerners fought for separation of the races, Southern Baptist ministers preached the glories of segregation from the pulpit. For good-hearted Southern Baptists, the struggle of the century has been this: how to reconcile the Bible's message of unconditional love with the native prejudices that, for the last 150 years, have become part and parcel of living in the South.

Source: http://www.salon.com/books/it/1999/05/14/baptist/index1.html


At least they KNOW they are going to heaven. Interesting attitudes people form when they KNOW the will of Allah(SWT and KNOW they are going to heaven.

Alhamdillah Allah(swt) has warned me not to believe I KNOW his will. Presumption can lead to some very grave sins. May Allah(swt) have mercy on those who KNOW they are going to heaven and grant them forgiveness for their arrogance.

 

[England]

The more appropiate question for me would;

"If you died today would you go to hell?"

No I doubt I will. I don't believe I've done anything bad enough to send me to hell..

 

[Maidah]

The more appropiate question for me would;

"If you died today would you go to hell?"

No I doubt I will. I don't believe I've done anything bad enough to send me to hell..

That would leave behind the option of you goin to paradise cuz you've done good,

Which i highly doubt:X

 

[England]

That would leave behind the option of you goin to paradise cuz you've done good,

Which i highly doubt:X

I don't believe in the "paradise" that you believe in I believe in "another world" similar to this that we live in yet a better world than that we live in, a peaceful, happy world where we live as spirits ie, heaven. In order to make that a better world the bad seeds need to come out I'm not one of them and nobody knows me as a person to judge me... :X To me religion is NOT a factor. Our hearts are.

 

[barney]

England. Is it just a gut feeling that causes your beleif in this...or something else?

 

[snakelegs]

woodrow wrote:

I know Catholics are not Christians

where did you get this idea? catholics are most certainly christians even if some protestants don't think so.

 

[Woodrow]

woodrow wrote:

where did you get this idea? catholics are most certainly christians even if some protestants don't think so.

I was being a little bit more than a touch obnoxious with that.

In my early years when I was Catholic very many of my non-Catholic acquaintances really did not consider Catholics, Christian. I know that most of our Christian members here are not Catholic. I really don't know how many of them do not consider Catholics as being non-Christian but I know a few think that.

 

[F@tim@]

bit of a funny poll!

 

[F@tim@]

A non Muslim can do all the good in the world and he/she will get their reward in this world but in the hereafter they will get no reward. Why? Because at the end of the day he/she did not believe in Allah and the Prophet(and the 7 major beliefs).
A Muslim can do all the bad in the world, he/she will get his/her punishment but at the end of the day will go to paradise because he/she believed in Allah and the Prophet(and the 7 major beliefs).

Allah Knows Best!

 

[*noor]

A Muslim can do all the bad in the world, he/she will get his/her punishment but at the end of the day will go to paradise because he/she believed in Allah and the Prophet(and the 7 major beliefs).

Allah Knows Best!

actually, belief comes with action, they work together, you can't just have one of them to be a Muslim, and aren't there 6 major beliefs?

 

[Maidah]

A non Muslim can do all the good in the world and he/she will get their reward in this world but in the hereafter they will get no reward. Why? Because at the end of the day he/she did not believe in Allah and the Prophet(and the 7 major beliefs).
A Muslim can do all the bad in the world, he/she will get his/her punishment but at the end of the day will go to paradise because he/she believed in Allah and the Prophet(and the 7 major beliefs).

Allah Knows Best!

Sis i think you are simplifying this too much. A muslim cannot be doing bad and then serve his punishment and go to paradise, unless he repents for his/her mistakes with the intention of never repeating it again. And beside beleiving in Allah there is other obligations on us such as saalat, zakat etc that we must also fulfill. For a muslim knowing about islam and the truth, if he/she still does something wrong it is twice the punishment because they were aware of it.

So we must all be carefull in our actions and not keep doing bad on the basis that we will suffer our share of the punishment and then go to paradise.

 

[Balthasar21]

Sorry I don't know, were you planning a trip?


Actually what you don't get (sickness, pain, sorrow, regret, shame, etc...) is what grabs me. Also if you read Revelation it sounds like an incredible neighborhood.

Not changeing the subject here but how well do you know Revelation ?

 

[snakelegs]

I was being a little bit more than a touch obnoxious with that.

In my early years when I was Catholic very many of my non-Catholic acquaintances really did not consider Catholics, Christian. I know that most of our Christian members here are not Catholic. I really don't know how many of them do not consider Catholics as being non-Christian but I know a few think that.

some protestants are very anti-catholic. but to an outsider, there can be no question that catholics are christians. christians calling each other non-christians is "insider" business. for us outsiders, it is much simpler.

 

[Gangster No.1]

Allah is the most generous, most kind, most forgiving, most mercifull, The giver, The taker.

I testify there is no god but ,allah & muhammad is the final beloved messeger, (p.b.u.h).

If i was 2 die 2 day, allah knows best inshlah i shalhh enter paradise with the will of allah, inshlah. And inshlah EVRY MUSLIM will also enter paradise with the will of THE MOST HIGH, THE OST GRACIOUS. ALLAH (s.w.t)

ameen.