The Law of God.

[snakelegs]

christians think that most of the laws in "the old testament" were cancelled out by new testament.

 

[Keltoi]

christians think that most of the laws in "the old testament" were cancelled out by new testament.

Not only that, although that is true, but Christ also taught by example. When the crowd prepared to stone Mary Magdalene, Christ stopped them from doing it by stating "let those without sin cast the first stone". The Message of Christ is one of forgiveness and mercy.

 

[MuhammadRizan]

SALAM.

christians think that most of the laws in "the old testament" were cancelled out by new testament.

They think?^o)

Not only that, although that is true, but Christ also taught by example. When the crowd prepared to stone Mary Magdalene, Christ stopped them from doing it by stating "let those without sin cast the first stone". The Message of Christ is one of forgiveness and mercy.

"Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. I tell you the truth, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished. Anyone who breaks one of the least of these commandments and teaches others to do the same will be called least in the kingdom of heaven, but whoever practices and teaches these commands will be called great in the kingdom of heaven. For I tell you that unless your righteousness surpasses that of the Pharisees and the teachers of the law, you will certainly not enter the kingdom of heaven. (Matthew 5:17-20)

can this verse interpreted otherwise?

So just as the tares are gathered up and burned with fire, so shall it be at the end of the age.The Son of Man will send forth His angels, and they will gather out of His kingdom all stumbling blocks, and those who commit lawlessness, and will throw them into the furnace of fire; in that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth. (Matthew 13:40-42)

Jesus (the God Himself) hates Lawlessness, can this direct quotes from God Himself interpreted otherwise?

Seems the The Laws Are Already There.oh:

 

[Keltoi]

SALAM.



They think?^o)





"Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. I tell you the truth, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished. Anyone who breaks one of the least of these commandments and teaches others to do the same will be called least in the kingdom of heaven, but whoever practices and teaches these commands will be called great in the kingdom of heaven. For I tell you that unless your righteousness surpasses that of the Pharisees and the teachers of the law, you will certainly not enter the kingdom of heaven. (Matthew 5:17-20)

can this verse interpreted otherwise?

So just as the tares are gathered up and burned with fire, so shall it be at the end of the age.The Son of Man will send forth His angels, and they will gather out of His kingdom all stumbling blocks, and those who commit lawlessness, and will throw them into the furnace of fire; in that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth. (Matthew 13:40-42)

Jesus (the God Himself) hates Lawlessness, can this direct quotes from God Himself interpreted otherwise?

Seems the The Laws Are Already There.oh:

Christ is referring to the Ten Commandments, which Christians still follow. However, many other laws in the OT were altered or abolished as Christ formed a New Covenant. Examples of these are...

The laws regulating both fasting and ceremonial cleanliness are not enforced in the Kingdom of God. The reason for this is the internalization of the Law, as is evident from the utterance of Matthew 15:10-20 (See also Mark 7:14-23):
And he called the people to him and said to them, Hear and understand: not what goes into the mouth defiles a man, but what comes out of the mouth, this defiles a man. … But Peter said to him, "Explain the parable to us." And he said, are you still without understanding? Do you not see that whatever goes into the mouth passes into the stomach, and so passes on? But what comes out of the mouth proceeds from the heart, this defiles a man. For out of the heart come evil thoughts, murder, adultery, fornication, theft, false witness, slander. These are what defile a man; but to eat with unwashed hands does not defile a man

Similarly, that portion of the Mosaic Code that regulates ritual and sacrifice, the ceremonial law, is no longer enforced. When Jesus quoted the Father, "I desire mercy and not sacrifice," he again internalized the law, since mercy comes from the heart. He also placed the temple rituals in storage by making the assertion that God does not desire sacrifice (Matthew 9:11, 12:7). Then he sealed this action by allowing the Romans to utterly destroy the temple in AD 70.

You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul, and with all your mind. This is the great and first commandment. And a second is like it. You shall love your neighbor as yourself. On these two commandments depend all the law and the prophets (Matthew 22:37-40).

In many cases Christ changed the law to internalization, the best example being the laws on divorce and adultery.

Everyone who looks at a woman lustfully has already committed adultery with her in his heart (Matthew 5:27).

Before faith came, we were confined by the law, kept under restraint until faith should be revealed, so that the law was our custodian until Christ came (Galatians 3:23).

 

[MuhammadRizan]

salam.

"Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them.

However, many other laws in the OT were altered or abolished as Christ formed a New Covenant.

isn't this contradiction?oh:

since Jesus is God Himself, Don't you think there is no need for Him to say"Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill" since He will abolished or altered it anyway..dont you think?^o)

For out of the heart come evil thoughts, murder, adultery, fornication, theft, false witness, slander. These are what defile a man

on this part i agree...

In many cases Christ changed the law to internalization, the best example being the laws on divorce and adultery.

what is the new laws then? briefly..

Before faith came, we were confined by the law, kept under restraint until faith should be revealed, so that the law was our custodian until Christ came (Galatians 3:23).

so after Jesus came until now the faith of christians are perfect? and no longer need a 'custodian'?oh:

 

[Keltoi]

salam.





isn't this contradiction?oh:

since Jesus is God Himself, Don't you think there is no need for Him to say"Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill" since He will abolished or altered it anyway..dont you think?^o)



on this part i agree...



what is the new laws then? briefly..



so after Jesus came until now the faith of christians are perfect? and no longer need a 'custodian'?oh:

On the issue of Christ "fulfilling" the law but not abolishing them, that is because Christ's death on the cross fulfilled the Law of Moses. While the law of Moses is perpetual, as a legal code it was undone by the Savior's sacrifice. While the Ten Commandments aren't technically to be followed by Christians, the New Testament restates 9 of them, leaving the Sabbath observance off the list. The rest of the laws were either Jewish ceremonial laws or those laws dealing with food, clothing, etc, which do not apply to Christ's New Covenant.

 

[wilberhum]

look, if the experts said, in that zone you can't drive more than 40 , because it's dangerous, in this case you have to obey them, since they are the traffic experts and they are telling u the rules so you don't go more than 40 to put in danger poeple's livez. in this case muslims should not drive more than 40, even if they are alone. cuz Allah swt is allways watching.it's not just about fearing that you might get punished by paying xxx pounds. but the problem is that you have made like a convent with the traffic experts, that in order not to put in danger people's livez, you will not go more than 40, and if u break that convent , Allah will not be happy with u.

But I looking for where your virision of "God's Laws" says I can't do more than 40 in a school zone. I don't want an evil "Man made law". :-\
So where do I find it? The answer is simple. None exists.
What happenes is some one decides what they think god wants. Then they call it gods law. :statisfie

 

[Trumble]

What happenes is some one decides what they think god wants. Then they call it gods law. :statisfie

I don't think so. I think it's more a case of somebody coming up with the social system first, and then invoking God to give it authority and persuade people to go along with it.

 

[wilberhum]

I don't think so. I think it's more a case of somebody coming up with the social system first, and then invoking God to give it authority and persuade people to go along with it.

Or a combination of both. Either way, I see no input from god. :-\

 

[MuhammadRizan]

salam.

On the issue of Christ "fulfilling" the law but not abolishing them, that is because Christ's death on the cross fulfilled the Law of Moses.

My bad!..because actually i think this verse is sooo straight forward...

so it does interpreted otherwise...So Fulfill actually represent Christ death on the cross, what makes Christian into that conclution?

 

[MuhammadRizan]

salam.

But I looking for where your virision of "God's Laws" says I can't do more than 40 in a school zone. I don't want an evil "Man made law".
So where do I find it? The answer is simple. None exists.
What happenes is some one decides what they think god wants. Then they call it gods law.

your question a little bit funny, well yeah! we had to admit there is no Laws from God about speed limit in school area, it's a manmade Law(i never says human Laws are evil) for safety reason, if you're cought then you'll receive that 'love letter' from police officer.

But if you exeeding speed limit and hit somebody, there is God laws.
let say you hit a children and Broke his spine.

According Islam, the children's family can choose 1 from this demands.

1-merely forgive you.
2-asking Blood money.
3-Broke your spine.

But of course, only Government can enforced this law.

i hope u got a clearer view.

:thankyou:

 

[wilberhum]

salam.



your question a little bit funny, well yeah! we had to admit there is no Laws from God about speed limit in school area, it's a manmade Law(i never says human Laws are evil) for safety reason, if you're cought then you'll receive that 'love letter' from police officer.

But if you exeeding speed limit and hit somebody, there is God laws.
let say you hit a children and Broke his spine.

According Islam, the children's family can choose 1 from this demands.

1-merely forgive you.
2-asking Blood money.
3-Broke your spine.

But of course, only Government can enforced this law.

i hope u got a clearer view.

:thankyou:

The view is quite clear. All laws are man made. :?

 

[Eric H]

Greetings and peace be with you wilberhum;

The view is quite clear. All laws are man made. :?

There have always been people who do not believe in God, so they have nothing to fear from God about breaking his laws; because to them God does not exist.

They may fear man’s laws and judgements more because they know about the justice and punishments that man passes on Criminals.

However a person who has a real faith in God might think they could outwit the police but they will know for sure that they will not fool God. As MuhammadRizan quoted

i agree, Syariah Laws too does not effect me or majority of Muslim, since we're no adulterer, thieves,etc etc we are devout muslim (insya' Allah)...those who are punish we're convicted by a very strict standard..

In theory if we love God and have a fear of God we will not sin, but we are all human and we each face human temptation to break the law.

People should want to be good citizens willingly and freely, God has given us the freedom to love our neighbours as we love ourselves; but we abuse this commandment.

In the spirit of searching for God’s perfect law.

Eric

 

[wilberhum]

Eric,

In the spirit of searching for God’s perfect law.

Can you tell me one of those "Perfect laws"? One that secular laws don't cover.
Should we burn people at the stake if they say Jesus is not god or behead them if they say Allah is not god? Of curse we should stone homosexuals, right?

 

[Keltoi]

Eric,

Can you tell me one of those "Perfect laws"? One that secular laws don't cover.
Should we burn people at the stake if they say Jesus is not god or behead them if they say Allah is not god? Of curse we should stone homosexuals, right?

One has to make a distinction between social laws, like many of the Jewish laws in the OT, to the higher moral laws, meaning the Ten Commandments. Don't kill, don't steal, etc. If those laws are followed without deviation you have a "perfect" moral society, so to speak. The problem comes into play when those laws are broken. What is the punishment? Who decides what that punishment is? That creates the problem of theocracy. As a Christian, I go by Christ's example. Christ interrupted a stoning and saved the victim. That leads me to believe that the death penalty is not the first route to be desired. However, there are obvious verses in the Bible that do indeed call for the death penalty. I don't trust men to decide these things, which is why I think a "perfect" theocracy is an oxymoron.

 

[glo]

Eric,

Can you tell me one of those "Perfect laws"? One that secular laws don't cover.
Should we burn people at the stake if they say Jesus is not god or behead them if they say Allah is not god? Of curse we should stone homosexuals, right?

Wilber,

Do you think that, if secular law was not overruling religious laws in most countries, such things would still take place - even in Western countries in the 21st century? :?

You see, for me that seems a very improbable scenario ... but then I was born in a secular time under secular laws, and they are very much part of my upbringing.

To me, Jesus' teachings on loving your neighbour, forgiving your adversaries, forgiving and helping 'sinners' and those cast out by society is so clear and powerful, that I cannot imagine anything else.

If nothing else, Jesus challenged the old laws, criticised those who followed them in every detail ... saying that following the laws without having love and compassion was meaningless ...

I am reminded of this story, as an example of Jesus putting human need before God's law:

One Sabbath Jesus was going through the grainfields, and as his disciples walked along, they began to pick some heads of grain. The Pharisees said to him, "Look, why are they doing what is unlawful on the Sabbath?" He answered, "Have you never read what David did when he and his companions were hungry and in need? In the days of Abiathar the high priest, he entered the house of God and ate the consecrated bread, which is lawful only for priests to eat. And he also gave some to his companions."

Then he said to them, "The Sabbath was made for man, not man for the Sabbath. So the Son of Man is Lord even of the Sabbath."
(Mark 2: 23-28)

Peace

 

[wilberhum]

I think a "perfect" theocracy is an oxymoron.

I like that. I'm sure I will have the opportunity to use it. :thumbs_up

 

[wilberhum]

Glo,

Do you think that, if secular law was not overruling religious laws in most countries, such things would still take place - even in Western countries in the 21st century?

Absolutely, positively, and without any doubt. (How’s that for an Agnostic)
I guess you, and many others do not understand my position. Actually it is quite simple.
Breaking “Man’s Laws” should be punished by man.
Breaking “God’s Laws” should be punished by god.
God does not need us humans to help him enforce his laws.
I think god can take care of himself.
Besides I think it is obvious that there is no common definition of all of god’s laws.
That is a major problem. :?

 

[Eric H]

Greetings and peace be with you wilberhum;

Besides I think it is obvious that there is no common definition of all of god’s laws.

The definition of all God’s laws is simple, they must hang on the two greatest commandments.

The greatest commandments could be compared to a hook to hang your coat on. If the hook comes of the wall the coat falls on the floor.

Any law written must demonstrate that it puts our love for God first and our love for our neighbour second. These commandments cannot be separated because we can only show our love for God in a practical way by loving our neighbour as we love ourselves.

If we love God we must obey his commandments, so for example obeying the drink- driving laws and driving within the speed limits are good laws. If we disobey them we show a lack of love for our neighbours because we increase the chances of recklessly killing someone.

In the spirit of searching for God's perfect law.

Eric

 

[wilberhum]

Greetings and peace be with you wilberhum;



The definition of all God’s laws is simple, they must hang on the two greatest commandments.

The greatest commandments could be compared to a hook to hang your coat on. If the hook comes of the wall the coat falls on the floor.

Any law written must demonstrate that it puts our love for God first and our love for our neighbour second. These commandments cannot be separated because we can only show our love for God in a practical way by loving our neighbour as we love ourselves.

If we love God we must obey his commandments, so for example obeying the drink- driving laws and driving within the speed limits are good laws. If we disobey them we show a lack of love for our neighbours because we increase the chances of recklessly killing someone.

In the spirit of searching for God's perfect law.

Eric

That is "Your" definition of god's laws. It is not universal. Why do you think that is so?
There are those that say man's laws are bad. That is why I picked on "speed limits".
There is no place where god talks about seed limits. So it is a man made law.

Now you can try to interoperate some statement, supposedly by god, and come up with a law. But that is not god’s law; it is your interpretation of what you think is god’s law. And again there is nothing universal about it.

I’m still waiting for an answer to my earlier question.

Can you tell me one of those "Perfect laws"? One that secular laws don't cover.