Exodus 31:15

[barney]

"For six days, work is to be done, but the seventh day is a Sabbath of rest, holy to the LORD. Whoever does any work on the Sabbath day must be put to death."

Hi, If I was to convert to christianity, should I pop over PC World on Sunday with a machinegun and carry out the lords word.

Or is the word "work" or "Sabbath" out of context here?

 

[glo]

Hi barney

I believe some orthodox Jewish groups are still very strict about the Sabbath laws. Although even in those strict religious circles do I not imagine anybody gets killed for breaking the law. :rollseyes
(It would be interesting if any Jewish posters could chip in here - because I don't know the full extend to which the Sabbath laws are upheld in modern-day Judaism)

As for Christian thinking, I believe the idea is more to set a day aside, which is not distracted by work and every-day hassles. That may be interpreted differently by different people ...
It doesn't mean that you cannot pop to the shops to buy bread and milk ...
It doesn't mean that you have te refuse your shift on the hospital ward ...

But, like I said, some people feel stronger about it than others.
A friend of mine went for a job interview, and asked whether he could not work on a Sunday on religious grounds. (Not so much because he didn't want to work on that day, but he didn't want to miss church)

Eric Liddell was an Olympic athlete during the 20's, and he famously refused to participate in his favoured race, because it was held on a Sunday.

During the summer of 1924, the Olympics were hosted by the city of Paris. Liddell was a committed Christian and refused to race on Sunday, with the consequence that he was forced to withdraw from the Men's 100 metres, his best event. The schedule had been published several months earlier, and his decision was made well before the Games began. Liddell spent the intervening months training for the 400 metres, an event in which he had previously excelled. Even so, his success in the 400 m was largely unexpected. He not only won the race but broke the existing world record with a time of 47.6 seconds. A few days earlier Liddell had competed in the 200 meter finals, for which he received the bronze medal, beating Harold Abrahams, who finished in sixth place. (This was the only race in which these two runners ever met.)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eric_Liddell

Jesus said this, when challenged about healing on the Sabbath:

Going on from that place, he went into their synagogue, and a man with a shriveled hand was there. Looking for a reason to accuse Jesus, they asked him, "Is it lawful to heal on the Sabbath?"

He said to them, "If any of you has a sheep and it falls into a pit on the Sabbath, will you not take hold of it and lift it out? How much more valuable is a man than a sheep! Therefore it is lawful to do good on the Sabbath."

Then he said to the man, "Stretch out your hand." So he stretched it out and it was completely restored, just as sound as the other. But the Pharisees went out and plotted how they might kill Jesus.
(Matthew 12: 9-13)

And this, when he was challenged on letting his disciples pick grain on the Sabbath:

One Sabbath Jesus was going through the grainfields, and as his disciples walked along, they began to pick some heads of grain. The Pharisees said to him, "Look, why are they doing what is unlawful on the Sabbath?"
He answered, "Have you never read what David did when he and his companions were hungry and in need? In the days of Abiathar the high priest, he entered the house of God and ate the consecrated bread, which is lawful only for priests to eat. And he also gave some to his companions."

Then he said to them, "The Sabbath was made for man, not man for the Sabbath. So the Son of Man is Lord even of the Sabbath."
(Mark 2: 23-28)

So, personally, I see the Sunday as a day of rest - a day to spend with fellow believers at church, and a day to spend with my family, a day to chill out and relax ... but that doesn't mean I don't end up ironing the school uniforms in the evening (Although I delegate that job to somebody else, given half a chance - but not on Biblical grounds! )

glo

 

[north_malaysian]

... and Friday is a working day in Malaysia..

 

[Muslim Knight]

... and Friday is a working day in Malaysia..

Not in the states of Terengganu, Perlis and Kelantan they have holidays on Fridays and Saturdays while Sundays are working days.

 

[north_malaysian]

Not in the states of Terengganu, Perlis and Kelantan they have holidays on Fridays and Saturdays while Sundays are working days.

in Kedah too.... but as I am working in private sector, the office is only closed on Sundays.

But still, in the Koran, there is no Sabbath on Fridays..... only obligatory congregational prayers.

 

[barney]

Mmm.

It's just that, if you accept the bible as Gods word, God is surely right, and he's not saying things for no reason, he's commanding his followers here to kill anyone who works on Sunday.

So any christian who dosnt head out this sunday and massacer the shop assisstants down at Blockbuster Video Rental stores, is going against Gods Holy Word.

Really my point here is, why do we pick and choose elements of the Bible to follow? Why in the light of modern times do we no longer slaughter people on the sabbath for working?
If we beleive God has given us his message, why do we ignore parts of it? Invariably The brutal, inhuman parts.
Do we think Gods wrong? Have we trancended God?

 

[glo]

Mmm.

It's just that, if you accept the bible as Gods word, God is surely right, and he's not saying things for no reason, he's commanding his followers here to kill anyone who works on Sunday.

So any christian who dosnt head out this sunday and massacer the shop assisstants down at Blockbuster Video Rental stores, is going against Gods Holy Word.

Really my point here is, why do we pick and choose elements of the Bible to follow? Why in the light of modern times do we no longer slaughter people on the sabbath for working?
If we beleive God has given us his message, why do we ignore parts of it? Invariably The brutal, inhuman parts.
Do we think Gods wrong? Have we trancended God?

No, we recognise that the severity and harshness of certain OT laws applied to the harshness of tribal living. People had to obey the rules, or the whole tribe was put at risk.
The laws were written down according to the need of the time.

That does not mean we have to apply them in the same way to modern life.
(As I said, it would be interesting to hear the Jewish perspective on this.)

As mentioned before, to me personally, Jesus' teachings and examples of living (see previous post) demonstrate very clearly that we are not to obey laws blindly, without testing them and being sure that they are of benefit to each given situation ...

We all do it all the time.
I firmly believe that it is wrong to steal or lie - the 10 commandments say so. (Those Golden Rules, in fact, apply to most societies past and present)
But I would not hestitate to resort to stealing or lying, if I thought it would save somebody's life.
Similarly, Jesus put the comfort of his disciples before the Sabbath law, by letting them pick grain.
He put the well-being of the leper before the Sabbath law, by healing him.

Some people think the Bible is a directory - and things are either black or white, right or wrong. I don't think that's true!!

Following Biblical teachings is a tremendously challenging thing to do.
It requires me to think, read, consider and pray on a daily basis, in almost every circumstance! It challenges my thinking, my beliefs, my ethics only all the time!

I am prepared to 'pick and choose' as you call it, and justify my actions before God one day ... He will know that I tried to do my best!
And if he wanted me to assassinate everybody working on the Lord's Day, I will explain why I thought that was a bad idea ... :X

(Perhaps I am the only one who thinks so. It would be good to hear the opinion of others ...)

I gotta do some work now ...

Peace

 

[Keltoi]

Glo's line of reasoning is pretty much the same as mine on this topic. As Glo mentioned, a Jewish member should shed light on the application to modern Judaism.

 

[tomtomsmom]

Isn't Exodus in the Old Testament?

 

[Keltoi]

Isn't Exodus in the Old Testament?

Yes it is.

 

[Umar001]

"For six days, work is to be done, but the seventh day is a Sabbath of rest, holy to the LORD. Whoever does any work on the Sabbath day must be put to death."

Hi, If I was to convert to christianity, should I pop over PC World on Sunday with a machinegun and carry out the lords word.

Or is the word "work" or "Sabbath" out of context here?

Well not all Christians believe that the Old Testament Law is to be followed. Some have nailed it to the Cross.

What I personally find interesting is the ideas here, that, if it seems good to me then I will do it, or that I will pray to see if I should do it, if it is written as a commandment then it should be done, fair enough if there is achoice to do it, but if its a command with no choice and someone prays and gets an answer opposite to what they believe the Word of God is, then surely that answer isn't from God. :-[

I think the Jews do not do this since there is no temple. Laws would be applicable if they had one up and running. At least that's what I understood from the person at askmoses. Apparently Christians might get killed for preaching too.

 

[tomtomsmom]

Yes it is.

My mother is christian but they (her church) only follows the New testament. She was appalled when I told her some of the things I had read in the OT. But the 10 commandments are in the OT and they follow those. I asked her to explain and she couldn't. Can anyone here?

 

[Keltoi]

My mother is christian but they (her church) only follows the New testament. She was appalled when I told her some of the things I had read in the OT. But the 10 commandments are in the OT and they follow those. I asked her to explain and she couldn't. Can anyone here?

Christ restates all of the Ten Commandments except for the Sabbath. Your mother is in the majority as far as Christian thought on the topic. The New Testament and the words and examples of Christ are what Christians are obligated to heed. Most of the OT laws are directed at Jews and laws that applied to their particular society. Ceremonial, sacrificial, etc.

 

[MuhammadRizan]

shalom, (i'm not a jew,same meaning right?)

I believe some orthodox Jewish groups are still very strict about the Sabbath laws. Although even in those strict religious circles do I not imagine anybody gets killed for breaking the law.

What?

That does not mean we have to apply them in the same way to modern life.

what?

As mentioned before, to me personally, Jesus' teachings and examples of living (see previous post) demonstrate very clearly that we are not to obey laws blindly, without testing them and being sure that they are of benefit to each given situation ...

what?

I am prepared to 'pick and choose' as you call it, and justify my actions before God one day ... He will know that I tried to do my best!
And if he wanted me to assassinate everybody working on the Lord's Day, I will explain why I thought that was a bad idea ...

this is tooooo much for me, no wonder my thread remain unanswered(the laws of god).

isn't God supposed to be knowing everything good or bad especially what the best for all of us?

you're planning to tell God His Laws is quite not a good idea?

Keltoi
Glo's line of reasoning is pretty much the same as mine on this topic. As Glo mentioned, a Jewish member should shed light on the application to modern Judaism.

and you agreed too?

:enough!: :enough!:

Btw...Barney! don't use Machinegun coz they will feel instant dead,
use stone instead with everybody watching because it's more Barbaric, medieval, senseless, terror, Oppresive, wicked, antichrist, 666 kind of thing.:thumbs_up :skeleton:

 

[glo]

shalom, (i'm not a jew,same meaning right?)


What?



what?



what?



this is tooooo much for me, no wonder my thread remain unanswered(the laws of god).

isn't God supposed to be knowing everything good or bad especially what the best for all of us?

you're planning to tell God His Laws is quite not a good idea?



and you agreed too?

:enough!: :enough!:

Btw...Barney! don't use Machinegun coz they will feel instant dead,
use stone instead with everybody watching because it's more Barbaric, medieval, senseless, terror, Oppresive, wicked, antichrist, 666 kind of thing.:thumbs_up :skeleton:

You seem to have difficulties in relating to my post, MuhammadRizan!

Please just accept my post as my personal view and an explanation of my beliefs - there is not need for you to agree or even understand ...

Peace, brother.

 

[vpb]

2:113. The Jews say: "The Christians have naught (to stand) upon; and the Christians say: "The Jews have naught (To stand) upon." Yet they (Profess to) study the (same) Book. Like unto their word is what those say who know not; but Allah will judge between them in their quarrel on the Day of Judgment.

Allah then mentions the claims of the Jews and Christians that their respective religion is the true Religion, saying: (And Jews) the Jews of Medina (say Christians follow nothing) as religion from God and there is no true religion except Judaism, (and Christians) the Christians of Najran (say Jews follow nothing) as religion from God and there is no true religion except Christianity; (though both are readers of the Scripture) both parties read the Book and do not believe in it and further claim things that are not mentioned therein. (Even thus spoke those who know not) knew the Oneness of Allah through their own forefathers; and it is said this means: they knew the Book of Allah from others. (Allah will judge between them) between the Jews and Christians (on the Day of Resurrection concerning that wherein they differ).
Tafsir Ibn Abbas.

 

[rav]

Shalom (Peace),

First of all, “work” is classified in the Biblical sense by the types of work used to build the Bais Hamikdah (Holy Temple), therefore things like kindling a fire are considered “work” in this sense yet, walking around five miles to the Shul on a Saturday morning is not work, and you are as a Jew obligated to work instead of kindling a fire (i.e. starting a car).

Now let us get to the fundamentals. I will outline a few things which are essential to know about the Sabbath.

1. Only Jews (children born from Jewish mothers) are required to observe the Sabbath and its laws. Non-Jews are not only, not required to observe the Sabbath, but are actually not permitted to do so, since it is a Jewish privilege.

2. Something that is overlooked when reading the Tanakh (i.e. Hebrew Bible) is when the death penalty is actually permitted to being with. The death penalty whenever required by the Hebrew Bible has a certain set of standards that must be followed before an execution is carried out. These standards are set by the Talmud, a holy book in Judaism which is just as authoritative in matters of Jewish law as the Tanakh. When reading the Hebrew Bible without using the Talmud to interpret and reveal things about the text, you are not only reading it in a way it is not meant to be understood, but you actually may do the exact opposite. The main protection and guardian of Jewish tradition is indeed the Talmud. This is because the “Oral Tradition” which it is called has never been known to foreign peoples and was written down (because of persecution and fear of it being lost) after the basic beliefs of all religions that would not be considered “modern” were already codified, so therefore no religion can claim the Talmud as their own and therefore no religion interprets the Hebrew Bible correctly, nor has any claim of being divinely inspired according to Jewish thought because they reject the Talmud (i.e. Oral Tradition). This requires a more in-depth look, which I will gladly take reveal to you:

A. The death penalty in Jewish law – The death penalty in Jewish law required that (a) two witnesses view the crime while it happened, (b) the witnesses warned the criminal he would be executed while he was committing the crime, (c) the criminal acknowledged he heard the warning and continued doing the act, (d) The Sanhedrin (Jewish court) is in active duty (which today it is not) and finally; (e) that one of the wise men of the Sanhedrin voted that the person is innocent, because a unanimous vote of a mans guilt means he had no protector and therefore no death penalty is given.

B. As you can see, the death penalty was rarely if ever used and Orthodox Judaism believes that a huge number of circumstances must occur for the death penalty to be ordered. Other punishments like possibly jail or exile were probably used a lot more. The bottom line is that today the death penalty cannot be given to anyone breaking Jewish law and the death penalty in Jewish thought is almost never used. Unlike many who assume Judaism according to the Hebrew Bible is a violent culture which kills many, it is completely opposite the case. Only those who read the Hebrew Bible without the Talmud, make this error.

 

[glo]

Thanks, rav. That's really interesting!

BTW, I love your signature!
Isn't that a lovely way to feel about G-d! Good old David ...

Peace

 

[Umar001]

(e) that one of the wise men of the Sanhedrin voted that the person is innocent, because a unanimous vote of a mans guilt means he had no protector and therefore no death penalty is given.

So if someone is clearly guilty then there needs to still be someone who votes for his innocence?

 

[rav]

So if someone is clearly guilty then there needs to still be someone who votes for his innocence?

You are not voting for his innocence, you are voting on if he should be put to death. This should explain it best: If all 23 judges gave a guilty verdict the accused could not be put to death, since there “cannot be a Jew in whom nobody sees the good.” That does not mean he can walk free. It means he is not executed for his crime.

Conditions for convicting and executing a person were so restrictive that a Beth Din that put to death more than one person in 7 years, and some say in 70 years, was referred to as a “destructive court” (-Talmud, Makkot 7a). Bottom line, is that Judaism is not a death penalty society. It does not mean people are not punished for crimes, it means people were not put to death very often.

Isn't that a lovely way to feel about G-d! Good old David ...

Look deeper into it, do you see a significant metaphor within it?