Who is the Trinity to Christians & Muslims?

[MustafaMc]

Just a thought. My first wife was a very devout Christian throughout her life. She had very little knowledge of Islam. I was definitely an agnostic trying to live as a Buddhist at the time of her final days. Yet, for some reason within minutes before she died she gained consciousness, smiled and said the Shahadah.Those were her last words. I was not with her when she died but that was related to me later by the doctor who was in attendance with her. At that time neither the Doctor nor myself were Muslim and we could not understand the significance of why she would say the Shahadah. The Doctor was a family friend who was a Roman Catholic Arab from Lebanon and fluent in Arabic.

Brother, thank you for sharing such a touching story. It reminded me of the following hadith:
Abu-Dawood 2203 Narrated Umar ibn al-Khattab

Muslim ibn Yasar al-Juhani said: When Umar ibn al-Khattab was asked about the verse "When your Lord took their offspring from the backs of the children of Adam" - al-Qa'nabi recited the verse--he said: I heard the Apostle of Allah (peace be upon him) say when he was questioned about it: Allah created Adam, then passed His right hand over his back, and brought forth from it his offspring, saying: I have these for Paradise and these will do the deeds of those who go to Paradise. He then passed His hand over his back and brought forth from it his offspring, saying: I have created these for Hell, and they will do the deeds of those who go to Hell. A man asked: What is the good of doing anything, Apostle of Allah? The Apostle of Allah (peace be upon him) said: When Allah creates a servant for Paradise, He employs him in doing the deeds of those who will go to Paradise, so that his final action before death is one of the deeds of those who go to Paradise, for which He will bring him into Paradise. But when He creates a servant for Hell, He employs him in doing the deeds of those who will go to Hell, so that his final action before death is one of the deeds of those who go to Hell, for which He will bring him into Hell.

How are we to know our own hearts to judge that we know we are saved, when we don't know the final act before we die? As you demonstrated the example of your 1st wife, so also the flip side must be true that one can have the outward appearance of being a devout Muslim yet his final words be of shirk.

Note: Christians, the fundamental Islamic belief of Al-Qadr is difficult to grasp. Allah has created us as He has willed to do so and who are we to question why. Since we don't know what our destiny is, we must live our lives with the fear of punishment and the hope of Paradise. This gets back to my prayer - to die not but as a Muslim.

 

[Redeemed]

I agree with this except that Judaism is monotheistic as well.
This is a prime example of what I would find offensive. How can you presume to know Brother Woodrow's heart? It serves no purpose to speculate on his personal situation beyond what he was so brave and generous to say. This same presumption has been applied to things I have shared as well.

It doesn't hurt to reiterate so we come to some common ground. I would disagree, I have kind feelings toward several Christians on this forum and among non-Muslims I personally know. These are the ones that respect me for who I am and vice versa. Never a post from you without an evangelical jab always presuming that you are right and that we are wrong! At least you are consistent.

I appreciate your comments and honesty. I like that about you. I notice that you mentioned or asked how can I presume to know brother Woodrow's heart? There is no way I can know that. Only God knows. If you would read what I wrote again, you would notice that I was careful to say that “I could be wrong,” :-\ and that “it could be possible that because he wasn't on good spiritual ground as an agnostic…” (Both Muslims and Christians will agree one is not on good spiritual ground as an agnostic in search of Buddhism). I also said, “No offense intended.” How do you know it wasn’t God who gave me a word of knowledge for brother Woodrow? God speaks to us Christians even today. Does God speak to individual Muslims today? MustafaMc, you get offended with me because of what I say to you, and now you are taking an offense for others. What is the deal here? I feel that it was God showing me that word to share with brother Woodrow, and I acknowledged that I could be wrong, because I am only human and not God, I know, however, God does speak to and through me. You might judge me like other Muslims and say that I am arrogant and presumptuous, but I tell you that isn’t it. I have a relationship with God which is my father in heaven. I thank you for the complement about my being consistent. I consider that has something positive coming from you. At least you know what to expect. If you are honest and transparent like Woodrow was with me about personal things in your life, I will only share if God shows me something. I have also made myself vulnerable on this forum and received feedback that was directing me to Islam. I did not get offended. I shared that message with brother Woodrow, but he may not have been the intended target by God to hear it or not the only one. I don’t know what God is doing in your life, but I know He has something stirring otherwise you and others wouldn’t be reacting. I for one want to see God working in our midst, and I see.oh:

 

[Grace Seeker]

Muslims hate the claim that Jesus was the Son of God while Christians hate the claim that Jesus was only a highly respected man who God created. I will have to disagree with you - we both love both Jesus and God. It's just that we are talking apples and oranges here with both claiming they love apples - so to speak.

I think you have provided a good analogy here. Which, in my opinion, is why we should quit trying to sell each other apples. Even if I know that what you have all you have is oranges and thus you could use a few apples, I'm still not going to be able to sell you apples as long as you believe that what you have is apples.

Perhaps you fail to see that the flip side of this coin has just as much chance of being true. It is as if you love this idealized psuedo-Jesus that has been created in Christian theology as being God incarnate, but fail to love the real Jesus who was a prophet and messenger of God who came to teach the Jewish community the spirit of the Law and to prophesy the coming of the Comforter.​

Well, yes and no.
No, I don't really see it as being true. I'm sure you could guess that between the two I see the Christ version of Jesus as being the true version.

Yes, I see that very much that nearly everything one may have said with regard to Christian views of Islam could just as well be said of Islamic views of Christianity. I just get tired of writing everything twice, once in one form and then again its inverse. Certainly I could have also written about you trying to sell me apples above. But I know that you are bright enough to actaully do this for yourself and are aware that I have also implied the inverse. Perhaps with others I would need to restate the obvious, but I don't need to be that redundant with you.

 

[MustafaMc]

I appreciate your comments and honesty. I like that about you. I notice that you mentioned or asked how can I presume to know brother Woodrow's heart? There is no way I can know that. Only God knows. If you would read what I wrote again, you would notice that I was careful to say that “I could be wrong,” :-\ and that “it could be possible that because he wasn't on good spiritual ground as an agnostic…” (Both Muslims and Christians will agree one is not on good spiritual ground as an agnostic in search of Buddhism). I also said, “No offense intended.” How do you know it wasn’t God who gave me a word of knowledge for brother Woodrow? God speaks to us Christians even today. Does God speak to individual Muslims today? MustafaMc, you get offended with me because of what I say to you, and now you are taking an offense for others. What is the deal here?

Others will atest that I have spoken in their defense before.

I feel that it was God showing me that word to share with brother Woodrow, and I acknowledged that I could be wrong, because I am only human and not God, I know, however, God does speak to and through me.

If God spoke to you about Brother Woodrow's situation, why didn't He speak truthfully to you? (Please, excuse my facetiousness.)

You might judge me like other Muslims and say that I am arrogant and presumptuous, but I tell you that isn’t it. I have a relationship with God which is my father in heaven. I thank you for the complement about my being consistent. I consider that has something positive coming from you. At least you know what to expect. If you are honest and transparent like Woodrow was with me about personal things in your life, I will only share if God shows me something. I have also made myself vulnerable on this forum and received feedback that was directing me to Islam. I did not get offended. I shared that message with brother Woodrow, but he may not have been the intended target by God to hear it or not the only one. I don’t know what God is doing in your life, but I know He has something stirring otherwise you and others wouldn’t be reacting. I for one want to see God working in our midst, and I see.oh:

I don't see you as arrogant, rather convinced of your convictions. I hope that I have not come across as arrogant because being prideful is a hateful thing before Allah. Like I acknowledged about you, I hope that I have been consistent in my approach and in what I have been trying to say.

 

[MustafaMc]

But I know that you are bright enough to actaully do this for yourself and are aware that I have also implied the inverse. Perhaps with others I would need to restate the obvious, but I don't need to be that redundant with you.

Ha! Fooled ya. I am not as bright as you think because I didn't catch that you implied the inverse in your pseudo-post to which I countered in green font.laying:

 

[Redeemed]

Others will atest that I have spoken in their defense before. If God spoke to you about Brother Woodrow's situation, why didn't He speak truthfully to you? (Please, excuse my facetiousness.)

I don't see you as arrogant, rather convinced of your convictions. I hope that I have not come across as arrogant because being prideful is a hateful thing before Allah. Like I acknowledged about you, I hope that I have been consistent in my approach and in what I have been trying to say.

Good evening MustafaMc:
Again I appreciate the complement about your not seeing me as arrogant. You are right about my being convinced of my convictions, but I would never presume to imply that you act out of pride. You have been an oak bro. In other words, yes consistent, and that is OK for both of us to be that way. God will knock one of us off our horse of convictions when it is not in line with His will. That is why I am not worried and full of confidence in the faithfulness of Allah. We can fully trust God to lead us in the way we should walk. :happy:

 

[Grace Seeker]

Ha! Fooled ya. I am not as bright as you think because I didn't catch that you implied the inverse in your pseudo-post to which I countered in green font.laying:

Well, at least I thought I had implied it in this statement:

I think what is loved is the Jesus we are each (be one Christian or Muslim) familiar with, and what is really hated is the Jesus that we don't know and don't believe ever existed.

That was meant to be long-hand for "Of course Muslims would say ditto to all of that in reverse."

 

[Redeemed]

Although it was primarily directed to one of your posts, I would not say it was directed to you personally as I believe it is possible others have similar views as yours. Yes, our difference over the nature of Jesus(as) keep us from coming to full acceptance of each others religious beliefs.





With that said I am absolutely certain you did not know me before I reverted. I was not very close to my family. I was not even a very nice person. I was quite self centered very dominating and believed I was the true master of my own destiny. Did it not seem odd that I was not present when my first wife died? From my other posts you may have seen I was quite estranged from my children and it had been many years since I had contact with them. true I was not much of an influence on my family, except maybe my son, who seems to place wealth as the only truth in life. But, at the same time my family, except for my second wife had very little influence on me. Like I said I was not a nice person.



I don't have any disagreement there and I also love you and do pray that your future in eternity will be full of joy.

Oddly although i do tend to paraphrase you it is not meant to belittle your statements. Much of what you say describes Islam if you Substitute Allah(swt) for Jesus(as) and Muslim for Christian.

It is surely refreshing to not have you take up an offense. I really do appreciate that. You really seem to know me better than any other Muslim on this forum. As far as your becoming a Muslim and your heart before God, that is a mystery to me. Oh God above (The one true God) please shows us what to say and do for how can we truly fellowship in love and light with this irreconcilable religious chasm in our midst. We are lost without you. Please have mercy on us in Jesus name! Show us the way to share your truth, and deliver us from spiritual deception and evil. We want just you. I ascribe no one to you God. You are the Lord and my creator no one else.

 

[MustafaMc]

Well, at least I thought I had implied it in this statement:

That was meant to be long-hand for "Of course Muslims would say ditto to all of that in reverse."

Sorry, I didn't catch that 1st time around. I can be dense at times.