Are Muslims obligated to read the Bible?

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Hi MustafaMc:

I think that you have got the scriptures mixed up. The Bible that Mohammed would most likely be familiar with would be a copy of the Codex Sinaiticus. This Bible contains the Epistle of Barbabus.

You quoted from the Gospel of Barnabus, a document written after the Qu’ran that contains information that has been comprehensively refuted. You should therefore be quoting from the Epistle of Barbabus.

You mentioned:
In Islam we know this book that descended into the heart of Jesus as the Injeel in which every Muslim believes as a fundamental article of faith.
Please provide any evidence for this. If your only evidence comes from the discredited Gospel of Barnabus, then you have certainly been misled.

Regards,
Grenville
 
Hi MuhammadRizan:

After the Dead Sea Scrolls were published, the assumption that the Bible was corrupted by careless copying was refuted. While some persons inexplicably repeat that argument, others have claimed that the Bible contains information other than God’s words. This is obvious; however, it is not accurate to say that it is a corruption since the words of God are clearly identified.

Statements attributed to God are normally prefixed with “The Lord said” or something similar. A commonsense read of the Bible will reveal all of the words of God to you. They are not corrupted and are in the same state as at the time of Mohammed who directed Muslims to believe them.

Regards,
Grenville
 
Hi Ummzayd:

You asked:
If you want to convince me that the bible is a 'true record of the mission and teaching of Jesus' (peace be upon him) you have to show me that it is a document with integrity and accuracy. whereas I already know it is a document full of mistakes and errors, and interpolations. why should I put my trust in such a document?
You should trust in such a document because Mohammed considered the “errors”to be insignificant enough to say that Jews and Christians who followed it to be on the right path. Further, he said that Muslims had to believe the Scriptures sent before. These scriptures, that were in the Bibles available to Mohammed, have not changed.

Regarding your last post, I will respond to that later. However, you noted that the Gospel of Barnabus was contained in the Codex Sinaiticus. If you have based any of your arguments on that assumption, then you are in grave error. The Epistle of Barnabus is in the Codex Sinaiticus. The Gospel of Barnabus is a useless document written after the Qu’ran.

Regards,
Grenville
 
Gospel of Barnabas 10

Jesus having come to the age of thirty years, as he himself said unto me, went up to Mount Olives with his mother to gather olives. Then at midday as he was praying, when he came to these words: "Lord, with mercy...," he was surrounded by an exceeding bright light and by an infinite multitude of angels, who were saying: "Blessed be God." The angel Gabriel presented him as it were a shining mirror, a book, which descended into the heart of Jesus in which he had knowledge of what God had done and what hath said and God willeth insomuch that everything was laid bare and open to him; as he said unto me: "Believe Barnabas, that I know every prophet with every prophecy, insomuch that whatever I say the whole hath come forth from that book.

In Islam we know this book that descended into the heart of Jesus as the Injeel in which every Muslim believes as a fundamental article of faith. Unfortunately, this book of revelation was not recorded except for a few fragments that made their way into the NT gospels.



I think that you probably meant "In Islam we believe" rather than "know" in your post. (And I'm not saying that to correct you, but because I believe that you truly were just using the term casually, like when I say "I know that MustafaMc is a man of integrity. I don't have anyway of proving it, but I believe it to be true.) But that isn't what is important. Here is what prompted me to respond to your post...


I think this really helps answer my other thread's question about when the Bible was corrupted: http://www.islamicboard.com/comparative-religion/46164-when-bible-corrupted.html. If Muslims believe that such a book actually at one time existed (whether the Gospel of Barnabas is authentic or not doesn't change the reality of Muslims holding such a belief), then anything that purports to testify to the same matter as would have been in that book, but does not do so accurately would be a corruption of the message of that book.
 
I doubt that I can. But the reason isn't because it isn't accurate, the reason is in what follows in your own post:

You've already reached your conclusion. So, I won't try to confuse you with the facts.

Unfortunately you seem to be implying that I am unwilling to listen to 'facts' and that is why I do not believe in the bible. I have studied the bible from a very young age, from about 10 years old until my twenties, I studied it carefully and in depth. I did not take my decision to become a Muslim lightly, I investigated Islam with an even more critical attitude than I had ever investigated the bible.

I say 'even more critical attitude' because of course I was extremely wary of a faith which is portrayed so negatively. And also, I believe that if one is raised in a particular faith it will have a real emotional pull for one, even after growing up and becoming disillusioned. Also of course, if one has a really deep love for God then the faith one is raised in seems to be inextricably bound up with that love and so it is very scary to think of abandoning it entirely.

Please do not think that I have made up my mind about Christianity or the bible without considering the facts. believe me, that is simply not the case.

If the bible was not full of mistakes, contradictions, distortions, etc. etc., then I would never have relinquished it.

peace
 
Unfortunately you seem to be implying that I am unwilling to listen to 'facts' and that is why I do not believe in the bible. I have studied the bible from a very young age, from about 10 years old until my twenties, I studied it carefully and in depth. I did not take my decision to become a Muslim lightly, I investigated Islam with an even more critical attitude than I had ever investigated the bible.

I say 'even more critical attitude' because of course I was extremely wary of a faith which is portrayed so negatively. And also, I believe that if one is raised in a particular faith it will have a real emotional pull for one, even after growing up and becoming disillusioned. Also of course, if one has a really deep love for God then the faith one is raised in seems to be inextricably bound up with that love and so it is very scary to think of abandoning it entirely.

Please do not think that I have made up my mind about Christianity or the bible without considering the facts. believe me, that is simply not the case.


You're right. That was an unfair and unkind thing to say on my part.

I apologize.
 
Hi MuhammadRizan:

After the Dead Sea Scrolls were published, the assumption that the Bible was corrupted by careless copying was refuted. While some persons inexplicably repeat that argument, others have claimed that the Bible contains information other than God’s words. This is obvious; however, it is not accurate to say that it is a corruption since the words of God are clearly identified.

Statements attributed to God are normally prefixed with “The Lord said” or something similar. A commonsense read of the Bible will reveal all of the words of God to you. They are not corrupted and are in the same state as at the time of Mohammed who directed Muslims to believe them.

Regards,
Grenville

Peace Grenville,

I may be a bit out of touch with the Bible as I have not really read it much in the past 2 years. However, I can not think of one place in the NT where the phrase “The Lord said” or something similar, is used.

I will agree that it is used in a number of places in the OT and I have not found any place where they are used in the OT that the words contradict with the Qur'an.

Actually, I have very little difficulty with the OT and on a personal level I feel that the only place the Jews failed was in their refusal to see Isa(as) as a True Prophet.
 
Hi Ummzayd:

You asked:

You should trust in such a document because Mohammed considered the “errors”to be insignificant enough to say that Jews and Christians who followed it to be on the right path. Further, he said that Muslims had to believe the Scriptures sent before. These scriptures, that were in the Bibles available to Mohammed, have not changed.

You have not proved any of this - it has already been explained to you that we as Muslims are told to believe that God sent scriptures before the qur'an - we believe this is a fact, not that the scriptures are pristine and we should base our lives upon them. You will get nowhere by banging on with this point, it is simply wrong. It is inconceivable for anyone with even a little knowledge of Islam and the Prophet pbuh, and the early Muslims, to think that God would give a command in the qur'an, or recommend a course of action, and it would not have been instantly acted upon by the Prophet, and the early Muslims and from there become a tradition of later Muslims.

Regarding your last post, I will respond to that later. However, you noted that the Gospel of Barnabus was contained in the Codex Sinaiticus. If you have based any of your arguments on that assumption, then you are in grave error. The Epistle of Barnabus is in the Codex Sinaiticus. The Gospel of Barnabus is a useless document written after the Qu’ran.

Yes you are absolutely right - I mistakenly wrote 'Gospel' instead of 'Letter', all the discussion about the Gospel of Barnabas made me err. I do not depend upon the Gospel of Barnabas to prove anything whatsoever.

Regards,
Grenville

peace to you
 
In Islam we know this book that descended into the heart of Jesus as the Injeel in which every Muslim believes as a fundamental article of faith. Unfortunately, this book of revelation was not recorded except for a few fragments that made their way into the NT gospels.

I think that you probably meant "In Islam we believe" rather than "know" in your post. (And I'm not saying that to correct you, but because I believe that you truly were just using the term casually, like when I say "I know that MustafaMc is a man of integrity. I don't have anyway of proving it, but I believe it to be true.) But that isn't what is important. Here is what prompted me to respond to your post...
You are exactly right. When I said "we know this book" ... "as the Injeel" it was not to state a fact rather it was a figure of speech like "we know the tall lumberjack in the fables as Paul Bunyan".


I think this really helps answer my other thread's question about when the Bible was corrupted: http://www.islamicboard.com/comparative-religion/46164-when-bible-corrupted.html. If Muslims believe that such a book actually at one time existed (whether the Gospel of Barnabas is authentic or not doesn't change the reality of Muslims holding such a belief), then anything that purports to testify to the same matter as would have been in that book, but does not do so accurately would be a corruption of the message of that book.
I agree that the Bible that existed in the majority of the Christian world during the 7th century is for the most part the same as available today. I believe this book contains at least some fragments of the revelation given to Jesus (as), but there are obvious contradictions with the Quran that I can't accept as being divinely inspired.

Can you provide additional info on the authenticity of the Gospel of Barnabas? You seem very knowledgeable about this topic.
 
Salam,

After the Dead Sea Scrolls were published, the assumption that the Bible was corrupted by careless copying was refuted. While some persons inexplicably repeat that argument, others have claimed that the Bible contains information other than God’s words. This is obvious; however, it is not accurate to say that it is a corruption since the words of God are clearly identified
.

yea..i saw a Dead sea scrolls in documentary,at least some of it not really in good condition to analize it contains..but it's only confirm the OT right? what about the NT?where is the original?or at least in the original language?

Statements attributed to God are normally prefixed with “The Lord said” or something similar.A commonsense read of the Bible will reveal all of the words of God to you.

Commonsense said “The Lord said” is a third person narration, if it's start like this "say to them" or "said" then it's a first person, The God is speaking.

Furthermore in the NT many verse start with this "Verily verily i say unto you.." it's the word of Jesus himself, Muslim do not consider this is as Revelation..advice maybe,teaching maybe but not revelation..it's same with Muhammad..we do not consider everything he said is revelation from God.

They are not corrupted and are in the same state as at the time of Mohammed who directed Muslims to believe them.

it's better for u to proof that the Bible is the same at the time of Isa than at the time of Muhammad.

just one thing, when Quran or Hadith mention about believing in previous scripture, they never recommend or forbid to read, reason, learn or anything.

Just believe their existance in the past and pay all our attention to His last testament, the one that he guaranteed explicitly will be preserved until the end of the world.

i must admit i'm not finish readsing bible yet but i just wanna ask is there in the Bible that God give explicitly(not just interpertation)guaranteed the injell will be preserved until the end?.:?
 
Can you provide additional info on the authenticity of the Gospel of Barnabas? You seem very knowledgeable about this topic.


I'm really just a reporter of other people's knowledge. But I'll gladly provide you a few links to some sources that I think might help you. The first is a scholarly magazine (written in a very popular and easy style) the deals with many of the issues that we frequently address regarding Christian history. It is, not surprisingly, Christian History and Biography magazine. Here is the key line from this article: "Though three early church works claim his name-The Epistle of Barnabas, the Gospel of Barnabas, and the Acts of Barnabas-none are considered to be written by him."

If one does an internet search for the "Gospel of Barnabas", one of the first links you will find is this one from an Islamic perspective -- http://www.barnabas.net/ -- which assumes the book in question to be authentic and seeks to answer the question "How the Gospel of Barnabas survived":
The Gospel of Barnabas was accepted as a Canonical Gospel in the Churches of Alexandria till 325 C.E. Iranaeus (130-200) wrote in support of pure monotheism and opposed Paul for injecting into Christianity doctrines of the pagan Roman religion and Platonic philosophy. He had quoted extensively from the Gospel of Barnabas in support of his views. This shows that the Gospel of Barnabas was in circulation in the first and second centuries of Christianity.
The problem is that we have not just copies of all the accepted New Testament books from the era of Iranaeus, but also copies of Iranaeus' own writings. Though the author of this online website uses the argument advanced in a book written by Muhammad `Ata ur-Rahim, Jesus a Prophet of Islam, neither this website nor the book is able to cite where Iraneaus is supposed to have written this. Also, there were many lists that reported to state what the canon of scripture was, most in harmony with one another, a few that differed. Some even that suggested some books that were to be considered NOT canonical. And the Gospel of Barnabas is never mention by any of them. It is not listed as one to be accepted, it is not listed as one that is to be rejected. It is not listed as one that is disputed. It is simply not listed at all. It is as if no one had ever heard of the Gospel of Barnabas. This is particularly interesting because they had heard of the Letter of Barnabas which they rejected as not authentic. And even though it was rejected, this Letter of Barnabas still exists today. It was not destroyed, nor was an attempt made to destroy it. In fact it was preserved, and sometimes even quoted by early church fathers. But it was not to be considered canonical. Today one can compare the Letter of Barnabas and the Gospel of Barnabas and see that they are not the same, nor is it likely that the short Letter of Barnabas be confused with the much longer Gospel of Barnabas by those who would have read both.

But perhaps the most telling for those who say that the Gospel of Barnabas was used as canonical by the early church is that nearly every line (not just every book, but nearly every line) of the accepted New Testament is quoted by the pre-Nicene, early Church fathers, yet not one line from the Gospel of Barnabas, a book the size of the Gospel of John (and if truly accepted as canonical, one would assume as significant) is even referenced by any of this group, including Iranaeus. In fact, though those who today believe the Gospel of Barnabas is authentic say, Iranaeus “quoted extensively from the Gospel of Barnabas in support of his views.” It is Irenaeus’ own Adversus Haereses (Against Heresies), dated 175-185 CE, that is considered by modern scholarship to provided the first explicit witness to a four-fold gospel canon of Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John – no mention of Barnabas. In fact, regarding the New Testament canon, one finds in Adversus Haereses quotations from all the books of the New Testament with the exception of: Philemon, II Peter, III John, and Jude. Plus Iranaeus specifically mentions two other so called gospels and declares his opinion of them. Regarding the Gospel of Truth, associated with Valentinus, Iranaeus writes:
But the followers of Valentinus, putting away all fear, bring forward their own compositions and boast that they have more Gospels than really exist. Indeed their audacity has gone so far that they entitle their recent composition the Gospel of Truth, though it agrees in nothing with the Gospels of the apostles, and so no Gospel of theirs is free from blasphemy. For if what they produce is the Gospel of Truth, and is different from those which the apostles handed down to us, those who care to can learn how it can be show from the Scriptures themselves that [then] what is handed down from the apostles is not the Gospel of Truth.
And regarding the Gospel of Judas, Iranaeus writes:
Others again declare that Cain derived his being from the Power above, and acknowledge that Esau, Korah, the Sodomites, and all such persons, are related to themselves. On this account, they add, they have been assailed by the Creator, yet no one of them has suffered injury. For Sophia was in the habit of carrying off that which belonged to her from them to herself. They declare that Judas the traitor was thoroughly acquainted with these things, and that he alone, knowing the truth as no others did, accomplished the mystery of the betrayal; by him all things, both earthly and heavenly, were thus thrown into confusion. They produce a fictitious history of this kind, which they style the Gospel of Judas.
Note, again, no place in this writing does Iranaeus mention a Gospel of Barnabas. What reason would there be for not finding it, if as previously asserted, “He had quoted extensively from the Gospel of Barnabas in support of his views.”? Could it be that the church preserved only those of Iranaeus’ writings that they later agreed with and destroyed everything else? Though I cannot imagine what a massive undertaking that would be to go through and excise such comments from not just Iranaeus but others who would have also been quoting anything as significant as the Gospel of Barnabas (assuming it was truly accepted as canonical by the church till Nicea), I suppose that such a conspiracy is possible. Except that we also have preserved Iranaeus claiming that The Shepherd of Hermes is scripture, though it is rejected by the others and is never considered to be included in the canon after Nicea. Yet, both Iranaeus’ comment and the book itself are left intact and not destroyed nor altered.
If it once did exist why does it not appear in any documents of the early church, why is it not even mentioned? The above addresses some of it. But there are those that suggest that it did and they cite that about 170 years after Nicea, Pope Gelasianum had a lsit compiled, known as the Gelasian Decree, a list of books that were to be and not to be accepted, to be considered as apocryphal, and still more that were to be considered rejected as “anthema forever”. On the list of apochryphal books is “the Gospel in the name of Barnabas”.
However, I highly doubt that it actually refers to the same book that we know as the Gospel of Barnabas today. There are two reasons I believe this. First, strangely, the Epistle of Barnabas is completely missing from the list. The Epistle of Barnabas was a well known and well preserved work that had a reputation similar to the Shepherd of Hermes which is also listed among the apocryphal books by Pope Gelasianum. (Hence, my guess is that for some unknown reason, the Gelasian Decree mistakenly referred to the Letter of Barnabas as the Gospel – perhaps because there was no other work by a similar name.) But I also find it extremely highly unlikely that Gelasianum would list a work that at this time in church history (after the formulation of the Nicene Creed) which denies the crucifixion of Jesus as does the Gospel of Barnabas, meaning it is known, and yet not list it among the books to be considered as anathema when such a listing was being compiled. As hard as it is for me to conceive that the Pope might accidentally call the Letter of Barnabas the Gospel of Barnabas, it stretches credulity beyond my ability to imagine that Gelasianum would grant the status of being merely apocryphal rather than condemning as heretical something with the content of the Gospel of Barnabas we have today. That is why I think this, the only 5th century reference to a Gospel of Barnabas, is actually intended to be a reference to the Letter of Barnabas and not the supposed gospel.
There are extant copies of the Letter of Barnabas that are actually included in the Codex Sinaticus (an ancient copy of the Bible) that dates to about 350 AD. It is the second oldest complete bible in existence and includes the Old Testament in Greek (including those books sometimes known as the Deuterocanon), the complete New Testament, and the Shepherd of Hermes along with the Letter of Barnabas. (Another reason to think that Pope Gelasianum was referring to the Letter of Barnabas in his list of books.) Other copies of the Letter of Barnabas also exist form the 4th and 5th centuries, but none of the Gospel of Barnabas have been produced dating earlier than the 16th century. This is all the more remarkable because when looking at the Gelasian Decree even those apochryphal works such as the supposed Gospel of Mathais, which is known as the lost Gospel, at least have fragments that date back to the first few centuries of the church still exist, but not even a fragment from the supposed Gospel of Barnabas.

Now, it must be said that supporters of the authenticity of the Gospel Barnabas make two claims that if either proved true would completely change the picture. The first claim is “A Greek version of the Gospel of Barnabas is also found in a solitary fragment. The rest is burnt.” Muhammad `Ata ur-Rahim provides the following information in his book, Jesus a Prophet of Islam:
There is a solitary fragment of a Greek version of the Gospel of Barnabas to be found in a museum in Athens, which is all that remains of a copy which was burnt:
(page 43)
Here is how the sentence on that fragment translates into English, “Barnabas the Apostle said that in evil contests the victor is more wretched because he departs with more of the sin.” No sentence even close to this can be found in the 16th century version of the book we possess. So, this fragment has to have some other source than the book we today know as the Gospel of Barnabas.

The second claim is reported as follows:
A Turkish journal, 'Ilime ve Sanat Dergisi', [my translation – “The Science and Art Magazine”] had published a write-up regarding the discovery of a ca. 19 centuries old Aramaic manuscript of this Gospel. It was written by Dr. Hamzah Piktash and was published in its issue of March-April, 1986. According to it a voluminous book was found by some people in a cave near the Turkish town of Hakari in 1984. They tore a leaf from it to get some information about it. They contacted Dr. Piktash to identify the manuscript. It had been written in the Aramaic language in Syriac script. It was written on Papyrus. Its dating revealed that it was written circa 19 centuries back. On perusal it came to be the Gospel of Barnabas written in Aramaic, the language of Jesus Christ. The discoverers left the photocopy of its only one leaf with Dr. Piktash. They disappeared; and were later arrested by the police while trying to smuggle it out. The manuscript was given in the custody of the Govt. Dr. Piktash states that the text with him was concordant with the English and Arabic translation of the Gospel of Barnabas to a great extent.

But nobody has actually seen this manuscript. The only source we have for this story is that it was a story related by a Mr. Bashir Mahmud Akhtar in a thesis for a masters degree as told by an internet article that is copied from one site to another, but I haven’t even been able to verify the existence of this Dr. Piktash. I hope to be able to contact some of my Turkish friends and family to at least verify the existence of said magazine. To date the only Turkish comment about the Gospel of Barnabas that I am able to obtain that is any different than those sites available on Google has this to say first about the Gospel of Barnabas and then about Barnabas himself:
A Gospel written by Barnabas who wrote exactly what he saw and heard from ‘Isa, was found and published in English in Pakistan in 1973.
It is written in Qamus al a’lam: “Barnabas was one of the earliest apostles. He was a son of Mark’s uncle. He was a Cypriot. He believed in ‘Isa soon after Paul came forward, with whom he travelled [sic] to Anatolia and Greece. He was martyred in Cyprus in the year 63. He wrote a Gospel and some other booklets. He is memorialized on the eleventh of June by Christians.”
As a result, I tend to seriously doubt the credibility of the claim related by Bashir Mahmud Akhtar as the silence regarding such a discovery is deafening, but perhaps my Turkish contacts will be able to aid me with more information later. If so, I will update you.
 
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GraceSeeker, thank you for the reply with your well researched point of view on the Gospel of Barnabas. I couldn't find any fault with what you wrote.
 
Hi MuhammadRizan:

You asked:
must admit i'm not finish readsing bible yet but i just wanna ask is there in the Bible that God give explicitly(not just interpertation)guaranteed the injell will be preserved until the end?.
We have this from Isaiah 59:21 - "As for me, this is my covenant with them," says the LORD. "My Spirit, who is on you, and my words that I have put in your mouth will not depart from your mouth, or from the mouths of your children, or from the mouths of their descendants from this time on and forever," says the LORD.

However, you asked about the Gospel. Matt 24:35 - Heaven and earth will pass away, but my words will never pass away.

Best regards,
Grenville
 
Peace Grenville,

I may be a bit out of touch with the Bible as I have not really read it much in the past 2 years. However, I can not think of one place in the NT where the phrase “The Lord said” or something similar, is used.

I will agree that it is used in a number of places in the OT and I have not found any place where they are used in the OT that the words contradict with the Qur'an.

Actually, I have very little difficulty with the OT and on a personal level I feel that the only place the Jews failed was in their refusal to see Isa(as) as a True Prophet.

Hi Woodrow:

It is good to converse with you again. My understanding of the Qu'ran is that it directs the reader to believe God's word in the OT Torah, Prophets, and the Gospels. I understand the debate about the singular Gospel, and the quality of copying, but I believe that Mohammed has access to a copy of the Codex Sinaiticus and would be fully aware that there were 4 Gospels.

Muslims are to believe God's previous revelations as well as those contained in the Qu'ran. I would interpret such revelations as the following:
1. where it is recorded that "God said" or something similar;
2. where a Prophet reveals a vision that he states came from God;
3. the words of the Messiah - for He claimed to speak only as God directed Him.

I understand Muslims' hesitancy at reading such words, for they appear to believe that they will find some words that contradict the Qu'ran, and then they will be in a quandary.

There are some contentious verses, like the one on Jesus' crucifixion; however, we should not be afraid to discuss them. Please see my discussion with Qatada where this verse can be interpreted so that it is in harmony with the Gospels and recorded history.

Regards,
Grenville
 
Hi Ummzayd:

I will respond to each of your concerns.

You are wrong. It does not say 'believe the scriptures and follow them'. … It says 'believe in.....the scriptures … quite apart from the finer points of linguistics, logic alone tells us… '

Please review the verse again.
4:136 - O ye who believe! Believe in Allah and His Messenger, and the scripture which He hath sent to His Messenger and the scripture which He sent to those before (him). Any who denieth Allah, His angels, His Books, His Messengers, and the Day of Judgment, hath gone far, far astray.

Please note that there is a difference between “Believe in: Allah, His Messenger, and the Scripture” and “Believe in Allah and His Messenger, and the Scripture”.

The former allows the logical interpretation of: Believe in Allah, and in His Messenger, and in the Scriptures. The latter does not, and it is the latter which is stated in the Qu’ran. Therefore despite your unwillingness to believe, you are directed to do so.

if elsewhere in the qur'an God tells us that Jesus pbuh was a prophet and nothing else, and was not crucified, we DO NOT take those scriptures as completely accurate. or are you saying that God urges us in the qur'an to read the Christian scriptures, and then shows His ignorance of them by contradicting them?

There is no contradiction. The contentious verse about Jesus’ crucifixion can be interpreted either way. Please see my discussion with Qatada on this subject.

(Bring here the Tawrah and recite it, if you are truthful.) So they brought the Tawrah and read from it until the reader reached the verse about stoning.

Our Prophet was able to prove a point to the Jews of the time by showing them what was in their own scriptures. That is all. It is by no means a complete affirmation of their entire scriptures.
This is your opinion, which you are free to hold. However, it is not supported.

7:91 - No just estimate of Allah do they make when they say: "Nothing doth Allah send down to man (by way of revelation)" Say: "Who then sent down the Book which Moses brought?- a light and guidance to man: But ye make it into (separate) sheets for show, while ye conceal much (of its contents): therein were ye taught that which ye knew not- neither ye nor your fathers." Say: "Allah (sent it down)": Then leave them to plunge in vain discourse and trifling.

yes, thanks for pointing this out to me. despite the assertion that the Jews had translated their scriptures into Greek by the time of this revelation, God tells us here that they have 'CONCEALED MUCH' of its contents. so the first 5 books of the OT are not even to be relied upon as the complete Torah.
You are assuming that “concealed much” means “unreliable”. This assumption is unsupported. The verse does not speak to or infer that the scriptures were unreliable or corrupted in any way. It speaks to the corrupt behaviour of the religious leaders.

5:82 Strongest among men in enmity to the believers wilt thou find the Jews and Pagans; and nearest among them in love to the believers wilt thou find those who say, "We are Christians": because amongst these are men devoted to learning and men who have renounced the world, and they are not arrogant.

This is by no means an acceptance of the validity of the Christian scriptures, it is acceptance by God of the sincerity and humility of certain Christians between the times of Jesus pbuh and Muhammad pbuh. the emphasis in this verse is on the people NOT the scriptures.
It is implied. What do you understand their “devoted to learning” is all about? What religious book do you think that a Christian would learn from.

5:66 - If only they had stood fast by the Law, the Gospel, and all the revelation that was sent to them from their Lord, they would have enjoyed happiness from every side. There is from among them a party on the right course: but many of them follow a course that is evil.

Here, the 'gospel' is the injeel, I thought it was understood that in the context of the qur'an the injeel is the message that Jesus brought, confirming 'the Law' and calling people to the worship of One God.
If the “message” is contained in one of the Books that came before, then we are in agreement.

5:69 - Those who believe (in the Qur'an), those who follow the Jewish (scriptures), and the Sabians and the Christians,- any who believe in Allah and the Last Day, and work righteousness,- on them shall be no fear, nor shall they grieve.

Read it again, carefully. It says 'those who follow the Jewish (scriptures)....and the Christians'. It doesn't say, those who follow the Jewish scriptures and who follow the Christian scriptures. The qur'an is extremely precise here.
This is where we need to study further. It says “the Jewish” (singular), then it says “the Sabians and the Christians”. Should this not be “the Sabians’ and the Christians’”. I will investigate.

You are starting off on the wrong premise again. certainly some Christians of that time were not Trinitarians. God has avoided mentioning 'the Christian scriptures' because that would indeed confuse you Christians of today. Thanks for mentioning the Codex Sinaiticus. Do you believe the Gospel of Barnabas and the Shepherd of Hermas are the 'inspired Word of God'? the compilers of the Codex Sinaiticus surely did.
The compilers of the Codex Sinaiticus apparently believed that the Epistle of Barnabus was inspired, not the Gospel of Barnabus. The Gospel of Barnabus is a useless document written after the Qu’ran. It you are relying on this document for anything but mirth and so on, then you are in grave error.

Have a great weekend everyone.
Grenville
 
Hi Ummzayd:

I will respond to each of your concerns.



Please review the verse again.
4:136 - O ye who believe! Believe in Allah and His Messenger, and the scripture which He hath sent to His Messenger and the scripture which He sent to those before (him). Any who denieth Allah, His angels, His Books, His Messengers, and the Day of Judgment, hath gone far, far astray.


I stand by what I said.

Did you read my reply about the Gospel of Barnabas? from what you repeated about that here I am hazarding a guess that you are not reading the replies you are getting.

If God grants me patience I will try to post a more detailed response.

peace to you
 
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Hi Ummzayd:

I will respond to each of your concerns.



Please review the verse again.
4:136 - O ye who believe! Believe in Allah and His Messenger, and the scripture which He hath sent to His Messenger and the scripture which He sent to those before (him). Any who denieth Allah, His angels, His Books, His Messengers, and the Day of Judgment, hath gone far, far astray.

Please note that there is a difference between “Believe in: Allah, His Messenger, and the Scripture” and “Believe in Allah and His Messenger, and the Scripture”.

The former allows the logical interpretation of: Believe in Allah, and in His Messenger, and in the Scriptures. The latter does not, and it is the latter which is stated in the Qu’ran. Therefore despite your unwillingness to believe, you are directed to do so.

I am astounded at how you came to this conclusion. Are you an expert in classical Arabic? Please share with us, using the Arabic, how your statement about this ayah is true.


There is no contradiction. The contentious verse about Jesus’ crucifixion can be interpreted either way. Please see my discussion with Qatada on this subject.

Yes brother Qatada gave you some good answers which perhaps you didn't read

This is your opinion, which you are free to hold. However, it is not supported.

It is your opinion that it is not supported! Can you please give some concrete REASON as to why you think my interpretation is not supported by the text?

You are assuming that “concealed much” means “unreliable”. This assumption is unsupported. The verse does not speak to or infer that the scriptures were unreliable or corrupted in any way. It speaks to the corrupt behaviour of the religious leaders.

I am assuming no such thing. The point here is that the Jews had supposedly, by the time this verse was revealed, translated their scriptures into a gentile language and so their scriptures were freely available. However the qur'an tells us that actually, they had 'concealed much' of that scripture. So how reliable is that translation? If they had held back 'much' of it?


It is implied. What do you understand their “devoted to learning” is all about? What religious book do you think that a Christian would learn from.

It is your INTERPRETATION that it is implied. It does not seem at all implicit to me. Furthermore, allow me to quote the verse again, and then the verse after:

'...nearest among them in love to the Believers wilt thou find those who say 'we are Christians', because amongst these are men devoted to learning and men who have renounced the world, and they are not arrogant.
AND WHEN THEY LISTEN TO THE REVELATION RECEIVED BY THE MESSENGER, THOU WILT SEE THEIR EYES OVERFLOWING WITH TEARS, FOR THE RECOGNISE THE TRUTH: THEY PRAY: 'OUR LORD! WE BELIEVE: WRITE US DOWN AMONG THE WITNESSES' (5:82-83)


This is where we need to study further. It says “the Jewish” (singular), then it says “the Sabians and the Christians”. Should this not be “the Sabians’ and the Christians’”. I will investigate.

Look again it says 'the Jewish SCRIPTURE'. it is not referring to 'those who follow the scripture of the sabians and the scripture of the christians'. That was my whole point here. The quran here refers to the Jewish scripture rather than 'the Jews', but it says 'the Christians' and 'the Sabians' (ie those people). the qur'an is extremely precise.

The compilers of the Codex Sinaiticus apparently believed that the Epistle of Barnabus was inspired, not the Gospel of Barnabus. The Gospel of Barnabus is a useless document written after the Qu’ran. It you are relying on this document for anything but mirth and so on, then you are in grave error.

I have already stated that this was a simple error on my part and I MEANT to say 'letter' not 'gospel'. I do not rely on the Gospel of Barnabas at all.
Have a great weekend everyone.
Grenville

I need to make some further points insha'Allah when I get the time.

peace
 
:sl:

the qur'an says (translation of meaning): 'O believers! Believe (amanu) in Allah and His Messenger, and the scripture which He hath sent to His Messenger and the scripture which He sent to those before'. (2:136)

the qur'an also says (translation of meaning): 'This is a blessed book which we have sent down (ie the qur'an) so FOLLOW IT'. (6:155)

So to go back to the first verse quoted, we believe in (or take on faith, as the arabic word implies) God, His Messenger, the book sent down with our Prophet pbuh, and the other books sent previously by God.

But the quran - we FOLLOW it as we have been commanded by God. anyone who is interested may study these two ayahs above, and compare the respective arabic words for 'believe' and 'follow'.

for more of what God has told us about the qur'an - see also 17:105, 32: 2-3, 17:9-10, 2:185, 59:21, 56:75-80, 4:82

The Qur'an has much to say about the Children of Israel/Jews and also the Christians, and with just a brief look-through I found this ayah:

'but because of their (ie the children of Israel) breach of the covenant, we distanced them (from Us) and made their hearts grow hard. They distort the meaning of (revealed) words and have forgotton some of what they were told to remember, you will always find treachery in all but a few of them.change the words from their right places and forget a good part of the Message that was sent them, .....from those, too, who call themselves Christians, we did take a covenant, but they forgot a good part of the Message that we sent them, so we estranged them, with enmity and hatred between the one and the other....'

Regarding those who believe in the trinity God tells us:

'They do blaspheme who say: Allah is one of three in a Trinity: for there is no god except One God. If they desist not from their word (of blasphemy), verily a grevious penalty will befall the blasphemers among them.'

I believe in the qur'an in its entirety and taking one ayah and presuming to lecture us on that basis about one of the themes of the qur'an is pointless.

And Allah ta'ala knows best.

peace
 
You should trust in such a document because Mohammed considered the “errors”to be insignificant enough to say that Jews and Christians who followed it to be on the right path. Further, he said that Muslims had to believe the Scriptures sent before. These scriptures, that were in the Bibles available to Mohammed, have not changed.
Oh, really? If you have read the Quran, you would know that it says repeatedly that they disbelieve who say Jesus is Son of Allah? Allah would not instruct Muslims to read and believe in the Quran and then turn around and say to also believe in the NT which is directly contrary to the Quran.

Again, Muslims are NOT obligated to read the Bible?
 
Oh, really? If you have read the Quran, you would know that it says repeatedly that they disbelieve who say Jesus is Son of Allah? Allah would not instruct Muslims to read and believe in the Quran and then turn around and say to also believe in the NT which is directly contrary to the Quran.

Again, Muslims are NOT obligated to read the Bible?



MustafaMc, what you are saying is that Allah would not instruct Muslims to believe A and then to believe Not-A.

And of course, if one believes that the Quran is true that is a very reasonable argument. So, extending that, it would follow that if someone is seeing the Quran as teaching both A and Not-A that it must be the individual who is perceiving the Quran incorrectly.

Though off topic for this thread, it follows from what you have written --> Might I suggest that the same argument could be made with regard to the Bible. Many Muslims try to convince us Christians that the Bible is, among other things, corrupted because see in it certain contradictions. In other words they see it teaching both A and Not-A. But of course, if one believes that the Bible is true, if someone sees the Bible as teaching both A and Not-A that the individual is preceiving the Bible incorrectly.

As with so many other things where Muslims and Christians disagree, it begins and end with what one is willing or not willing to consider as the ultimate source of truth.
 

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