The Law of God.

salam.



The verse about stoning adulterer is not in the quran...it only stated in Muhammad sunnah...is it a problem? nope! coz i stated earlier that source of God's Law in from Quran and Sunnah...The word of God and His inspired Prophet.

Conclusion.

The goat is not guilty.:p

I guess you dont understand me brother. First of all when it comes to the personality of profet Muhamad (saw) , with no doubts , he was uniq and and a person like him will never be born again.
But when we discus Rajm , stoning , we have to understand , from where it came and why ?!!
First off all you said your self , that stoning is not writen in Koran ( guaranteed by Allah , that is true word ) , and than you say that is stated in Muhammas's sunnah.
Now when we talk about the sunnah and the hadith , i dont know how much you are informed , but they where writen some 250 years after the death of the profet Muhammad.
And let just make small comparation beatween hadith and the Bible. Usualy we dont accept the Bible to be true because it was writen some 80-100 years after the death of Isa(saw) . And when we read the Bible we find many contradiciton in it only because it was writen after the death of the profet as i said 80-100 years later.
So, we hava all those mistakes in the Bible with was writen only 100 years after the death on the profet , now imagine how many mistakes there are in the hadith wich was writen 250 after the death of the profet !!!
I'm not saying that i dont belive the words of the profet Muhammad , all im saying is imposible to be verified that those hadiths are realy profet words.
How can i belive that those hadiths are profet words when in the Holy Koran is stated that woman is equal with man , and in a hadith transmited by Buhari prophet Muhammad (saw) says " That prayer is not good , if a dog , monkey and the woman walk infront of you " !!!
I can guarantee to you and to every muslim , this is not said by prophet Muhammad (saw) .
In Holy Koran woman = man and in the sunnah woman=dog and monkey !!!
Question is whom you belive , to the words of Allah ,or words of Buhari who is stating that someone hurd Muhammad (saw) that he said this ?!!!
And belive this is not only hadith that contradicts the holy Koran , there are to many . Rajm is one of those hadiths that contradics Koran !!!

Selamun Alejkum brother .
 
Not only that, although that is true, but Christ also taught by example. When the crowd prepared to stone Mary Magdalene, Christ stopped them from doing it by stating "let those without sin cast the first stone". .

So, Why diddnt he start the stoning party? He was without sin! So he got dibs on the first rock! :)
 
One more thing MuhammadRizan you brought here some hadiths that are transmited by Buhari
MuhammadRizan said:
Sayyiduna Abu Hurayra (Allah be pleased with him) narrates: “A man from amongst the people came to the Messenger of Allah (Allah bless him & give him peace) while he (the Messenger of Allah) was sitting in the Masjid, and addressed him, saying: “O Messenger of Allah! I have committed illegal sexual intercourse.” The Messenger of Allah (Allah bless him & give him peace) turned his face away from him. The man came to that side to which the Messenger of Allah (Allah bless him & give him peace) had turned his face, and said: “O Messenger of Allah! I have committed illegal intercourse.” The Messenger of Allah (Allah bless him & give him peace) turned his face to the other side, and the man came to that side. When he confessed four times, the Messenger of Allah (Allah bless him & give him peace) called him and said: “Are you insane?” He said: “No, O Messenger of Allah!” The Messenger of Allah (Allah bless him & give him peace) said: “Are you married?” He said: “Yes, O Messenger of Allah!” The Messenger of Allah (Allah bless him & give him peace) said (to the people): “Take him away and stone him to death.” (Sahih al-Bukhari, no: 6439)
........................................................................................................

Similarly, Sayyiduna Abd Allah ibn Abbas (Allah be pleased with him) narrates that When Ma’iz ibn Malik came to the Messenger of Allah (and confessed that he had committed adultery), the Messenger of Allah (Allah bless him & give him peace) said to him: “Probably you have only kissed (the woman), or touched, or looked at her?” He said: “No, O Messenger of Allah!” The Messenger of Allah (Allah bless him & give him peace), using no euphemism, said: “Did you have sexual intercourse with her?” The narrator said: At that moment, (i.e. after he confessed that he had sexual intercourse), the Messenger of Allah (Allah bless him & give him peace) ordered that he be stoned.” (Sahih al-Bukhari, no: 6438)

Lets analize this two hadiths and see how much sence thay have !!! So we have to ppl who come to prophet Muhammad (saw) and confes that they had sexual intercourse .
So , its not the case that there are 4 witnesses and acused person has no escape , we are talkin here for two ppl who volunterily admit that they had sexual intercourse .
You tell me is there any logic for someone to do this , knowing that if he admits this thing he is dead meat !!! Or what for example someone wants to make suicide ?!! All he have to do is to lie that he had sexual intercourse , and he will be stoned to death , even tho he did nothing.
And , for me those hadiths are not acceptable for the only reason that there is no logic at all for someone to confes something that is going to cost to him his life .
And exacly in this pont we muslims make mistakes , by taking this false hadiths and converting them to laws even thought they contradict the Holy Koran !!!
Remember Koranic verses my brother " God , will not change position of nation , until they chenge their self first " and " ...the nation that goes astray God's path , Allah will send them the bigest enemy ..."

See in what position are muslims states today !!!!

Selamu Alejkum brother
 
salaam/peace;

So, Why diddnt he start the stoning party? He was without sin! So he got dibs on the first rock! :)


haha funny :p ...

surely it was difficult for Jesus *(p) to kill someone alone.....not a very easy task ...right ?

may be this story is a fake one....i read that some versions of Bible don't have this story . Unfortunately some Chrsitians use this story to justify their sins like adultery , homosexaulity etc. They claim that there is no punishment as Jesus * (p ) forgave the sinner .

Even if the story is a true one , surely the blessed of God did not encourage anyone to justify it committing sins.

Did not read the other posts.....hope i m not off topic here
sofa-1.gif
 
:sl:

Say: "obey Allah and His messenger.: But if they turn back, Allah loveth not those who reject Faith.(Aal-e-Imran, Chapter #3, Verse #32).

First of all, i know Hadith are compiled long after Muhammad times,
so please guide me, how we can obey Muhammad and take example of true Muslim through him without Hadith?

i'm just curious since ur argument seems so logical..

how do you perform Solah without instruction of Muhammad in the hadith?

same also about fasting?

same also about Zakah?

same also about Hajj?

please dont tell me u pick and choose, it's too christian to do.


So , its not the case that there are 4 witnesses and acused person has no escape , we are talkin here for two ppl who volunterily admit that they had sexual intercourse .
You tell me is there any logic for someone to do this , knowing that if he admits this thing he is dead meat !!! Or what for example someone wants to make suicide ?!! All he have to do is to lie that he had sexual intercourse , and he will be stoned to death , even tho he did nothing.
And , for me those hadiths are not acceptable for the only reason that there is no logic at all for someone to confes something that is going to cost to him his life

tell me, is it impossible for Muslim to regret what the sin that they have done?or they fear punishment in hell more than in this world?

please tell me by logic, who will be extremely more faithful? person that see and know Muhammad in flesh(like in the Hadith) or person that never see him (like us!)...is it fair to compare the act(confessing their sin) of person live with Muhammad 1400 years ago to us 1400 years later that could'nt even remember Quran by heart?(at least like me:embarrass )


So, Why diddnt he start the stoning party? He was without sin! So he got dibs on the first rock!

welcome back barney:D...
 
:sl:


salam.



The verse about stoning adulterer is not in the quran...it only stated in Muhammad sunnah...is it a problem?


is it possible that the punishment took place before the revelation came ?

Is there any proof that after the Quranic verses on 80-100 lashes came for adultery , Prophet (p) ordered of stoning ???
 
The death spoken of in these passages is a spiritual death.
Christ often spoke of the living 'dead'
But he also gave us three messages about executing judgement.

#1) the executioner must be sinless - and who is therefore it is left up to God (which is very consistent with many older passages such as 'vengeance is mine sayeth the Lord')

#2) That we be forgiving - if we expect God to be forgiving of us in return.

#3) That we will be forgiven - if we repent of the sin and trust in the redeeming grace BECAUSE He took the death penalties for us. He was the paschal lamb - and took the sentence and punishment prescribed in the law for everyone who repents and believes in Him. It was the complete fulfillment - the echo of when Father Ibrahim went to sacrifice his son as God had commanded - but then at the last moment supplied the ram to be sacrificed in his place. That sacrifice was for Ibrahim, Christ's sacrifice was for all people of all time who trust in Him.

However - he does not nullify the law or sin - because He calls on the repentent sinners to 'go and sin no more'


:sl:
Some Muslim country enforced Syariah Law, international comunity condemned islam as barbaric, midieval, intolerant religion.
christian missionary also say the same thing.

It's obvious why muslim praticed this law because it's in Quran and Hadith, God's law above manmade law. Muslim cant just pick something their like and ignore anything else, only hypocrites does that.

so my question is..

why christians don't enforce this?


And the uncircumcised man child whose flesh of his foreskin is not circumcised, that soul shall be cut off from his people; he hath broken my covenant. (Genesis 17:14)

And he that smiteth his father, or his mother, shall be surely put to death.(Exodus 21:15)

And he that curseth his father, or his mother, shall surely be put to death. (Exodus 21:17)

For every one that curseth his father or his mother shall be surely put to death: he hath cursed his father or his mother; his blood [shall be] upon him. (Leviticus 20:9)
Ye shall keep the sabbath therefore; for it [is] holy unto you: every one that defileth it shall surely be put to death: for whosoever doeth [any] work therein, that soul shall be cut off from among his people. (Exodus 21:14)

Six days shall work be done, but on the seventh day there shall be to you an holy day, a sabbath of rest to the LORD: whosoever doeth work therein shall be put to death (Exodus 25:2)
Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness [of any thing] that [is] in heaven above, or that [is] in the earth beneath, or that [is] in the water under the earth: (Exodus 20:4)

And the man that committeth adultery with [another] man's wife, [even he] that committeth adultery with his neighbour's wife, the adulterer and the adulteress shall surely be put to death. (Leviticus 20:9-11)

And he that blasphemeth the name of the LORD, he shall surely be put to death, [and] all the congregation shall certainly stone him: as well the stranger, as he that is born in the land, when he blasphemeth the name [of the LORD], shall be put to death.(Leviticus 24:16)

If a man have a stubborn and rebellious son, which will not obey the voice of his father, or the voice of his mother, and [that], when they have chastened him, will not hearken unto them: Then shall his father and his mother lay hold on him, and bring him out unto the elders of his city, and unto the gate of his place; And they shall say unto the elders of his city, This our son [is] stubborn and rebellious, he will not obey our voice; [he is] a glutton, and a drunkard. And all the men of his city shall stone him with stones, that he die: so shalt thou put evil away from among you; and all Israel shall hear, and fear. (Deuteronomy 21:18-21)

i personally believe Christian don't just pick whatever suit their need, or to please other people, because they believe Bible is word of god.
so is there another reason?
 
:sl:

The Adulteress is Confined in her House; A Command Later Abrogated


At the begining of Islam, the ruling was that if a woman commits adultery as stipulated by sufficient proof, she was confined to her home, without leave, until she died. Allah said,


[وَاللَـتِى يَأْتِينَ الْفَـحِشَةَ]


يعني الزنا


[مِن نِّسَآئِكُمْ فَاسْتَشْهِدُواْ عَلَيْهِنَّ أَرْبَعةً مِّنْكُمْ فَإِن شَهِدُواْ فَأَمْسِكُوهُنَّ فِى الْبُيُوتِ حَتَّى يَتَوَفَّاهُنَّ الْمَوْتُ أَوْ يَجْعَلَ اللَّهُ لَهُنَّ سَبِيلاً]


(And those of your women who commit illegal sexual intercourse, take the evidence of four witnesses from among you against them; and if they testify, confine them (i.e. women) to houses until death comes to them or Allah ordains for them some (other) way.) `Some other way' mentioned here is the abrogation of this ruling that came later. Ibn `Abbas said, "The early ruling was confinement, until Allah sent down Surat An-Nur (chapter 24) which abrogated that ruling with the ruling of flogging (for fornication) or stoning to death (for adultery).'' Similar was reported from `Ikrimah, Sa`id bin Jubayr, Al-Hasan, `Ata' Al-Khurasani, Abu Salih, Qatadah, Zayd bin Aslam and Ad-Dahhak, and this is a matter that is agreed upon. Imam Ahmad recorded that `Ubadah bin As-Samit said, "When the revelation descended upon the Messenger of Allah , it would affect him and his face would show signs of strain. One day, Allah sent down a revelation to him, and when the Messenger was relieved of its strain, he said,


«خُذُوا عَنِّي، قَدْ جَعَلَ اللهُ لَهُنَّ سَبِيلًا، الثَّيِّبُ بِالثَّيِّبِ، وَالْبِكْرُ بِالْبِكْرِ، الثَّــيِّبُ جَلْدُ مِائَةٍ، وَرَجْمٌ بِالْحِجَارَةِ، وَالْبِكْرُ جَلْدُ مِائَةٍ ثُمَّ نَفْيُ سَنَة»


(Take from me: Allah has made some other way for them. The married with the married, the unmarried with the unmarried. The married gets a hundred lashes and stoning to death, while the unmarried gets a hundred lashes then banishment for a year.)'' Muslim and the collectors of the Sunan recorded that `Ubadah bin As-Samit said that the Prophet said,


«خُذُوا عَنِّي خُذُوا عَنِّي، قَدْ جَعَلَ اللهُ لَهُنَّ سَبِيلًا، الْبِكْرُ بِالْبِكْرِ جَلْدُ مِائَةٍ وَتَغْرِيبُ عَامٍ، وَالثَّيِّبُ بِالثَّيِّبِ جَلْدُ مِائَةٍ وَالرَّجْم»


(Take from me, take from me. Allah has made some other way for them: the (unmarried) gets a hundred lashes and banishment for one year, while the (married) gets a hundred lashes and stoning to death.) At-Tirmidhi said, "Hasan Sahih''. Allah said,


[وَاللَّذَانَ يَأْتِيَـنِهَا مِنكُمْ فَـَاذُوهُمَا]


(And the two persons among you who commit illegal sexual intercourse, punish them both.) Ibn `Abbas and Sa`id bin Jubayr said that this punishment includes cursing, shaming them and beating them with sandals. This was the ruling until Allah abrogated it with flogging or stoning, as we stated. Mujahid said, "It was revealed about the case of two men who do it.'' As if he was referring to the actions of the people of Lut, and Allah knows best. The collectors of Sunan recorded that Ibn `Abbas said that the Messenger of Allah said,


«مَنْ رَأَيْتُمُوهُ يَعْمَلُ عَمَلَ قَوْمِ لُوطٍ، فَاقْتُلُوا الْفَاعِلَ وَالْمَفْعُولَ بِه»


(Whoever you catch committing the act of the people of Lut (homosexuality), then kill both parties to the act.) Allah said,


[فَإِن تَابَا وَأَصْلَحَا]


(And if they repent and do righteous good deeds), by refraining from that evil act, and thereafter their actions become righteous,


[فَأَعْرِضُواْ عَنْهُمَآ]


(leave them alone), do not verbally abuse them after that, since he who truly repents is just like he who has no sin,


[إِنَّ اللَّهَ كَانَ تَوَّاباً رَّحِيماً]


(Surely, Allah is Ever the One Who accepts repentance, Most Merciful.) The following is recorded in the Two Sahihs:


«إِذَا زَنَتْ أَمَةُ أَحَدِكُمْ، فَلْيَجْلِدْهَا الْحَدَّ، وَلَا يُثَرِّبْ عَلَيْهَا»


(When the slave-girl of one of you commits illegal sexual intercouse, let him flog her and not chastise her afterwards. ) because the lashes she receives erase the sin that she has committed.


[إِنَّمَا التَّوْبَةُ عَلَى اللَّهِ لِلَّذِينَ يَعْمَلُونَ السُّوءَ بِجَهَـلَةٍ ثُمَّ يَتُوبُونَ مِن قَرِيبٍ فَأُوْلَـئِكَ يَتُوبُ اللَّهُ عَلَيْهِمْ وَكَانَ اللَّهُ عَلِيماً حَكِيماً - وَلَيْسَتِ التَّوْبَةُ لِلَّذِينَ يَعْمَلُونَ السَّيِّئَـتِ حَتَّى إِذَا حَضَرَ أَحَدَهُمُ الْمَوْتُ قَالَ إِنِّى تُبْتُ الاٌّنَ وَلاَ الَّذِينَ يَمُوتُونَ وَهُمْ كُفَّارٌ أُوْلَـئِكَ أَعْتَدْنَا لَهُمْ عَذَاباً أَلِيماً ]


(17. Allah accepts only the repentance of those who do evil in ignorance and foolishness and repent soon [afterwards]; it is they to whom Allah will forgive and Allah is Ever All-Knower, All-Wise.) (18. And of no effect is the repentance of those who continue to do evil deeds until death faces one of them and he says: "Now I repent;'' nor of those who die while they are disbelievers. For them, We have prepared a painful torment.)

i take this from tafseer ibn kathir.

there are some point here.

1)Allah already mention there will be something new in the future.

2)Punishment is to erase their sin(adultery), so when the adulterer died during prosecution, they will not punish again in the hereafter, which is the reason why people confessed personally during Muhammad(pbuh) times.

3)this verse predated the event of stoning.

about the hadith authenticity and classification. i urge the reader please start ur research here.
http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/fundamentals/hadithsunnah/scienceofhadith/atit.html
 
Salam.

The death spoken of in these passages is a spiritual death.
Christ often spoke of the living 'dead'

1)what is the criteria used to define some "death" word mention in bible,i means how to know Jesus or God mean spiritual or physical?

2)i take an example.

And he that smiteth his father, or his mother, shall be surely put to death.(Exodus 21:15)

3)how to put people in the spiritual death?if in this passage it's interpreted spiritual death.
 
Salam.



1)what is the criteria used to define some "death" word mention in bible,i means how to know Jesus or God mean spiritual or physical?

2)i take an example.



3)how to put people in the spiritual death?if in this passage it's interpreted spiritual death.


Salam MuhammadRizan,

Well I believe that, as the word of God, the Bible never 'abrogates' itsself, only clarifies - what is true for one time and people is true for all.

So when Jesus Christ talked of the spiritually dead, He was talking of people living in a state of apostacy - separation from the Kingdom of Heaven. This seperation and 'death' was (and still is) due to some people's love of darkness. There are many symptoms of spiritual death including all sorts of sins - as described in the passages we are discussing (adultery, parental disrespect...)

But Jesus Christ also said that He came into the world not to condemn, but to save. He never retracted the statements about the death penalty for certain sins (because people living in sin are already spiritually dead), but He indicated that He came with an offer of salvation and eternal life - even for them if they would repent and believe in Him.

So there is no way of placing someone in spiritual death as a punishment - for people are judged by God alone and by their own word and deed. When God said: Vengeance is mine - it was a testimony to the fact that He would be the one to carry out punishments.

Cheers!
Dan
 
(Samuel L Jackson) in Pulp Fiction:

"The path of the righteous man is beset on all sides by the inequities of the selfish and the tyranny of evil men. Blessed is he, who in the name of charity and good will, shepherds the weak through the valley of darkness, for he is truly his brother's keeper and the finder of lost children. And I will strike down upon thee with great vengeance and furious anger those who would attempt to poison and destroy my brothers. And you will know my name is the Lord when I lay my vengeance upon thee."

Then he blew the guys head off with a Colt Python. God it seems always needs someone to carry out his punishments, because he has a bit of trouble doing it himself.
 

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