Islam could become Europe’s dominant religion

[Uthman]

If that happens, will it prove Islam is the one and only true religion?

Not to you. But I can't say it won't serve as a means of confirmation to other Muslims.

There is already pushback. The immigration tap will (or has already) be turned off. Even those nations that pride themselves on welcoming the politically oppressed (Sweden, the Netherlands) are sick of it. The French are half-ready to elect Le Penn to return themselves to Gaulic glory. The Spaniards are tired of Muslims trying to say Islamic prayers at (now) Christian churches. the Germans are tired of the Turks. The Brits are tired of somebody trying to blow them up when they get on a public conveyance.

Conversion or reproductive fecundity are not going to be enough.

That may be true, but growth of Islam in Europe is showing no signs of decreasing as far as I am aware. It is increasing, if at the pace of a snail, but increasing nonetheless. I know that my local mosque is Jam-packed on a Friday

Couple with that, the decline of Christianity.... (by that I mean declining Church attendance)

Think of it as a graph. One line shows Islam growing and the other line shows Christianity declining. One day the lines are inevitably going to cross. That day may be a long way away. Maybe a very long way away, but it looks like it is going to happen.

Btw, no offence is intended towards Christian members. I have the utmost respect for Christianity as a religion and Christians as a people.

Regards

 

[wilberhum]

But I can't say it won't serve as a means of confirmation to other Muslims.

Using that logic they should be come Christians now.

 

[Uthman]

That's certainly one way of looking at it. Would you like me to explain the other or...?

 

[wilberhum]

That's certainly one way of looking at it. Would you like me to explain the other or...?

No, not really. :embarrass I wouldn't want this to be a serious conversation.

I was just being silly because I find the whole thing silly.

 

[Uthman]

I was looking for this emoticon earlier

 

[Cognescenti]

Not to you. But I can't say it won't serve as a means of confirmation to other Muslims.



That may be true, but growth of Islam in Europe is showing no signs of decreasing as far as I am aware. It is increasing, if at the pace of a snail, but increasing nonetheless. I know that my local mosque is Jam-packed on a Friday

Couple with that, the decline of Christianity.... (by that I mean declining Church attendance)

Think of it as a graph. One line shows Islam growing and the other line shows Christianity declining. One day the lines are inevitably going to cross. That day may be a long way away. Maybe a very long way away, but it looks like it is going to happen.

Btw, no offence is intended towards Christian members. I have the utmost respect for Christianity as a religion and Christians as a people.

Regards

To an extent, I agree, but what is really on the ascent in Western Europe is secularism. Even Christians who no longer attend a weekly church service may well get their hackles up if someone begins to impugn their religious tradition, or, even worse, suggest their lifestyle is morally inferior, or, much worse, propose laws or social norms to restrict their freedoms. Then, all of a sudden, there will be Christians all over the place. ;D

On my last trip to Europe, I was in Paris on a Sunday. I passed church after beautiful church, most empty except for a few old ladies until I came to one Catholic church which had worshipers spilling out into the vestibule and even the courtyard. There was a loudspeaker so those outside could participate. Lots of young people (mostly 20-30's)..a few babies. They were all having WAY more fun than I ever remember having at church. The Mass was in Polish

 

[Amadeus85]

To an extent, I agree, but what is really on the ascent in Western Europe is secularism. Even Christians who no longer attend a weekly church service may well get their hackles up if someone begins to impugn their religious tradition, or, even worse, suggest their lifestyle is morally inferior, or, much worse, propose laws or social norms to restrict their freedoms. Then, all of a sudden, there will be Christians all over the place. ;D

Yes it is very true,

On my last trip to Europe, I was in Paris on a Sunday. I passed church after beautiful church, most empty except for a few old ladies until I came to one Catholic church which had worshipers spilling out into the vestibule and even the courtyard. There was a loudspeaker so those outside could participate. Lots of young people (mostly 20-30's)..a few babies. They were all having WAY more fun than I ever remember having at church. The Mass was in Polish

Dang! and in the beginnig i was close to believe that the French came back to faith at last :giggling:

 

[KAding]

That may be true, but growth of Islam in Europe is showing no signs of decreasing as far as I am aware. It is increasing, if at the pace of a snail, but increasing nonetheless. I know that my local mosque is Jam-packed on a Friday

Well. There are no reliable figures on the growth of Islam in Europe. How many Muslims in Europe really follow Islam? How many kids do the later generations have that were themselves born here? Are they immune to the same social changes that brought down the fertility rate among indigenous Europeans? What about immigration? Are more Muslims coming into Europe now then, say, in the last few decades. Will Muslims go from a few percent to a majority in Europe this century? So many different questions, so few real answers. A lot of wishful/doomsday thinking on both sides though.

My thoughts on this, based on research in the Netherlands.
1. Muslims are not immune to modern decline of birth rates. Second generation Muslim women have the same birth rates as the Dutch themselves for example.
2. Immigration policies are becoming more strict. Policy is to prevent family reunions or importing brides. Clearly these are having an effect on the immigration rates. Countries that are strict, like Denmark and Holland, have seen quite drastic reductions in the influx of immigrants.
3. The number of actual converts to Islam seems very low, although there are no accurate figures on this.

All of this makes me believe the wishful/doomsday thinking is based on the false assumption that nothing will change.

Couple with that, the decline of Christianity.... (by that I mean declining Church attendance)

Think of it as a graph. One line shows Islam growing and the other line shows Christianity declining. One day the lines are inevitably going to cross. That day may be a long way away. Maybe a very long way away, but it looks like it is going to happen.

Which has nothing to do with Muslims becoming a majority. Church attendance is not declining because these Christians become Muslims, its declining because they are becoming atheists and agnostics or ditching organized religion in favor of a more personal approach to religion. To use your graph example, it would mean a rise of the non-religious group mostly.

Btw, no offence is intended towards Christian members. I have the utmost respect for Christianity as a religion and Christians as a people.

Regards

None taken .

 

[wilberhum]

What would happen if Islam becomes Europe’s dominant religion?

More Mosques being build? Less pork served? Increase in the sale of head scarves?

But would laws change? I don’t think so. I doubt that those “Non Church Going Christians” are willing to give up there freedom of speech or religion laws.

Will the atheist and agnostics not voice there opinions.

Will the “Moderate Muslims” want the kind of laws and restrictions that exist in the Middle East?

I don’t think the changes would be that dramatic.

 

[Amadeus85]

What would happen if Islam becomes Europe’s dominant religion?

More Mosques being build? Less pork served? Increase in the sale of head scarves?

But would laws change? I don’t think so. I doubt that those “Non Church Going Christians” are willing to give up there freedom of speech or religion laws.

Will the atheist and agnostics not voice there opinions.

Will the “Moderate Muslims” want the kind of laws and restrictions that exist in the Middle East?

I don’t think the changes would be that dramatic.

There are already few places in Europe, where muslims became majority in former christian lands, for example Kosovo or Bosnia. You can check informations how atheists and non muslims feel there. laying:

 

[Darkseid]

Greetings,



As far as I'm aware, Islam is growing a lot faster that the other faiths you mentioned. Islam is already flourishing in Europe.

It is not really growwing. It is just a lot of muslim procreation that establishing a high birth rate of more muslims. There is little if any conversion of muslims in any part of the world except in tribal areas of Africa and Indonesia and still it isn't really that big.

The whole Islam growwing idea is relatively weak, because if Islam was really such a powerful religion as you proclaim it be then the entire world would have turn entirely muslim about three centuries ago. Now why has it? Because the whole muslim growth issue is nothing more than an elaboration if not a fabrication.

I think you meant to say unlikely? That's neither here nor there anyway. Atheism is not a religion.

True it is not a religion, but that is irrelevant and dumbfoundedly obvious.

Well yeah, but 200 million muslims emigrating from India to Europe is an unlikely possibility.

I know that was why I was being sarcastic.

All evidence points to the contrary.

What evidence?

I don't.

Good for you.

I don't understand what you mean by socially-fixed religions. Please explain what you mean by that.

Religions where people are bounded by the society. For instance, in Egypt you cannot leave the muslim faith or you are thrown into prison if not killed by someone else.

I don't believe that is all there will be.

My knowledge comes from Allah himself, take it up with the big man if you find what I say so unappealing.

People are already individuals.

Not in a socially fixed religion.

You seem to imply that people are not already believing what they want to believe. I don't think that is the case.

Regards

Then you have a lot to learn, child.

 

[MTAFFI]

It is not really growwing. It is just a lot of muslim procreation that establishing a high birth rate of more muslims. There is little if any conversion of muslims in any part of the world except in tribal areas of Africa and Indonesia and still it isn't really that big.

The whole Islam growwing idea is relatively weak, because if Islam was really such a powerful religion as you proclaim it be then the entire world would have turn entirely muslim about three centuries ago. Now why has it? Because the whole muslim growth issue is nothing more than an elaboration if not a fabrication.

I have to kind of agree and disagree with you in some aspects, for one I think that Islam is not really growing as much as it is spreading out a bit. I think that the religion has been somewhat isolated from much of the rest of the world, but now with the media attention accompanied by the people from the M.E. and other places migrating from their homes to new countries, I think it raises awareness and curiosity in some, which may be why it seems that it is growing faster than it really is, however with that said I dont think the procreation has much to do with the numbers. This may raise the numbers by a fraction but like I said I think most of the higher numbers come from immigration and not procreation.

As far as it not being a powerful religion and asking why it has spread, I will say that it is only as powerful as you want it to be, some people may get nothing from it and others may gain a world of knowledge, I think it really has to do with what you want from it. It is a good religion though and although it does recieve a lot of negative attention I do think that one day it will be the dominate religion of our world.

PEACE

 

[czgibson]

Greetings,

Here's something I just posted on another thread where a similar discussion is going on. I should have posted it here, really, as it's more germane to the topic here:

For the statistically-minded:

FAQ from Adherents.com describing why it is difficult to measure the fastest growing religion

P. S. Where I live, in the UK, I don't personally know anyone who has converted to Islam. I don't know anyone who knows anyone who has converted to Islam. Yvonne Ridley and who else?

Peace

 

[silkworm]

Jesus’ followers, however, have not followed him on this point (Jesus’ openness with women) His openness of women and the respect he showed them, was replaced after his death, on the part of the male church officials, by a peculiar mixture of repressed fear, mistrust and arrogance. A poetic testimony to distance women can be found in the second pseudo-, “To the Virgins”, which was presumably composed in the third century but until very late in the modern period went under the name of Pope Clement I (d. 97) and hence was extremely important in clerical education: “With God’s help this is what we do: We do not live with virgins and have nothing to do with them. We do not eat and drink with virgins and where a virgin sleeps there we do not sleep. Women do not wash out feet, nor do they anoint us. And we positively do not sleep where a consecrated virgin is, indeed we do not even stay over night there” (ch. I).

Where the Pseudo-Clement does stay over night, “there may not be any female, neither unmarried girl nor married woman, neither old woman nor one consecrated to God, neither Christian nor pagan maid-servant, but only men may be with men” (ch.2). This pseudo-papal saying is especially curious because its author evidently wanted to outdo Jesus in chastity. He alludes all too clearly to the scene with the sinful woman who washed the feet of Jesus with her tears, the kissed and anointed them. In his celibate purity the writer would never have allowed anything like this to be done to him. With his peculiar standard of chastity the writer affronts Jesus, who at and drank with women and took no offense at sleeping in a house where women were sleeping too. Clementine letter

These pseudo doctrines helped to promote “Homosexuality” among clerics that spread like wildfire and stands visible till this date.

 

[czgibson]

Greetings,

The post about 'Jesus' followers' above comes from "Eunuchs for the Kingdom of Heaven, The Catholic Church and Sexuality" by Ranke-Heinemann, apparently.

What is its relevance to the topic of this thread?

Peace

 

[Darkseid]

I have to kind of agree and disagree with you in some aspects, for one I think that Islam is not really growing as much as it is spreading out a bit. I think that the religion has been somewhat isolated from much of the rest of the world, but now with the media attention accompanied by the people from the M.E. and other places migrating from their homes to new countries, I think it raises awareness and curiosity in some, which may be why it seems that it is growing faster than it really is, however with that said I dont think the procreation has much to do with the numbers. This may raise the numbers by a fraction but like I said I think most of the higher numbers come from immigration and not procreation.

As far as it not being a powerful religion and asking why it has spread, I will say that it is only as powerful as you want it to be, some people may get nothing from it and others may gain a world of knowledge, I think it really has to do with what you want from it. It is a good religion though and although it does recieve a lot of negative attention I do think that one day it will be the dominate religion of our world.

PEACE

Muslim men are allowed to have as many as four wives and from those wives they can have as many as fourty if not more children. Plus most people tend to get married rather young and there can also be a lot of rape related events in areas where ethnic and religious diversity takes present like in Kurdistan.

Jesus’ followers, however, have not followed him on this point (Jesus’ openness with women) His openness of women and the respect he showed them, was replaced after his death, on the part of the male church officials, by a peculiar mixture of repressed fear, mistrust and arrogance. A poetic testimony to distance women can be found in the second pseudo-, “To the Virgins”, which was presumably composed in the third century but until very late in the modern period went under the name of Pope Clement I (d. 97) and hence was extremely important in clerical education: “With God’s help this is what we do: We do not live with virgins and have nothing to do with them. We do not eat and drink with virgins and where a virgin sleeps there we do not sleep. Women do not wash out feet, nor do they anoint us. And we positively do not sleep where a consecrated virgin is, indeed we do not even stay over night there” (ch. I).

Where the Pseudo-Clement does stay over night, “there may not be any female, neither unmarried girl nor married woman, neither old woman nor one consecrated to God, neither Christian nor pagan maid-servant, but only men may be with men” (ch.2). This pseudo-papal saying is especially curious because its author evidently wanted to outdo Jesus in chastity. He alludes all too clearly to the scene with the sinful woman who washed the feet of Jesus with her tears, the kissed and anointed them. In his celibate purity the writer would never have allowed anything like this to be done to him. With his peculiar standard of chastity the writer affronts Jesus, who at and drank with women and took no offense at sleeping in a house where women were sleeping too. Clementine letter

These pseudo doctrines helped to promote “Homosexuality” among clerics that spread like wildfire and stands visible till this date.

That was well (several centuries) after the death of christ and around the same time women begin to lose their rights in the Islamic world. Therefore christians are as faulty in following their faith as muslims. End of story or should gather more information from Allah in response to any more of your allegations?

Greetings,

The post about 'Jesus' followers' above comes from "Eunuchs for the Kingdom of Heaven, The Catholic Church and Sexuality" by Ranke-Heinemann, apparently.

What is its relevance to the topic of this thread?

Peace

Nothing, he just felt like attacking christians. So said Allah to me.

 

[metalted]

As a Christian man of hebrew origin. I am concerned as well...
I believe that if this message of peace from muslims is not adopted soon enough christian, and European society should begin to radicalize thier own..

I am very concerned as I carry a name of jewish origin of the vast amounts of 'anti zionist' material throughout the internet, throughout europe, and throughout the muslim world. As the far left is adopting this propaganda as trueth that it is fair game whether or not it will be the jews or the muslims in the middle east and europe that will suffer horrendously as a result of this.

It is also an extremely worrying sign that muslims seem to be at the very least mildly sympathetic to Al Qaida and 'resistance' against the West. I admire the attempts by peace loving muslims particularlly the poster of the thread on coexistance. And I myself prefer Muslims would take this to be the true meaning of islam and we can togethor end our hate and stop the insanity... But I am not sure if this is where the dice will fall....

I have been going through islamic forums for some time... many times I am told "if you want peace fight against the zionists." where? how? Zionists are simply a people like any other... if one were to expect me not to demonize muslims perhaps we should start by not demonizing anyone...But it seems an endemic to Islamic culture, beliefs in vast conspiracies designed to keep them down to proud are they to admit thier own faults... which makes us different, and makes the west weaker...we do admit our faults and to an excessive degree, to where we lack pride in our heritage and culture, to we doubt our own righteousness in our cause. while muslims will fight any where for any cause so long as muslims are somehow involved... china india europe indonesia afganistan it does not matter..

while we are deeply shamed by our own atrocities and go into guilt fests... Many muslims find it the work of zionists, jews.. to the point that muslims who have never met nor seen a jew in his life would execute a man like daniel pearl simply because he was jewish..and obviously had some kind of link to some evil far reaching zionist conspiracy to control the world..suicide bombings 9-11, all the work the jew.

Muslims must find excuses to why America supports Israel, because we are brainwashed by AIPAC or some thing... but fail to realise we simply do not empathise with people who teach kids to become shaheed...we do not empathise with people who use tv stations to tell thier people to kill themselves and take as many jewish apes and pigs along with them, and we do not empathise with people who murder thier own for power, and act out on the demands of clerics calling for mass murder. Americans were the ones to liberate the Jews from nazi concentration camps christians are also feel religious obligation to support israel as well.. as muslims do palestine... we are diametrically opposed to each other..

that is not to say we oppose a 'free palestine' it just means we are opposed to maniacal palestine. we are opposed to the kind of men and women that would glorify violence and genocide. and had there be a choice there would either be a peaceful prosperious non violent palestine with happy palestinians or no palestinians at all..but we must start by ending the culture of violence in palestine...and by the removing of settlements in westbank... and I hope these recent efforts work...but if not..

we must be ready for the army of islam. Americans seem to be the only ones that are proud enough as a people to fight for thier cause.

I realise with these efforts to understand islam, the power of religion, the power of nationalism. a nation without pride is much weaker. this is the down fall of aethiesm unless it is attached to nationalism, and the down fall of liberal ideology. ultimately I see to paths the world could take, as of now I see us begining to head down the path of peace but all that could change in a heartbeat. And I dont see America as losing as there is not enough pride and religious fervor that can stop a cruise missle fired from 1000 miles away....

 

[beespreeteam]

A maniacal palestine? Obviously it's going to be like that if you invade their land, kick them out of their homes and occupy their cities lol.

I agree with some of your points, but I suggest you read this for ideas on why many places are 'radicalised'

http://beespree.com/HistoryHive/A_History_of_Folly_-_Why_Islamic_Countries_hate_America/

I'm not saying I agree with them, or that it's the right thing, but sometimes you can understand...

 

[metalted]

A maniacal palestine? Obviously it's going to be like that if you invade their land, kick them out of their homes and occupy their cities lol.

I agree with some of your points, but I suggest you read this for ideas on why many places are 'radicalised'

http://beespree.com/HistoryHive/A_History_of_Folly_-_Why_Islamic_Countries_hate_America/

I'm not saying I agree with them, or that it's the right thing, but sometimes you can understand...

interesting...although I do not agree about us giving sadam biological weapons (a sample of our biogical materials were bought from our facilities in the name 'research' and chemical precursors were supplied by a large number of different countries, germany france, many others as well.. precursers to chemical weapons can be harmless)

For awhile, reading some of these posts I was begining to almost think that muslims prefered a facist-like state to riegn in on immoral people, as well as against radical islamists. And I have thought that we have no choice but to prop up facist states that are pro america because the alternative.. a virulently anti american government is extremely unfavorable to our interests... In other words, having a democracy in the middle east is of little use to us if they all decided to vote to go to war with us...

such is the strangness of our world, 'fighting for democracy.' means we may not be able to allow for democracy in some lands.
But I may be wrong, I was definently surprised to find very devout muslims who believe in peace and cooperation, particularly from a certain egyptian here... I had a misconception that the more devotion to the faith meant that they would be more against the west other faiths.. I had previously thought more secular muslims were the more peacefull they were.. So I can be wrong..

 

[Darkseid]

As a Christian man of hebrew origin. I am concerned as well...
I believe that if this message of peace from muslims is not adopted soon enough christian, and European society should begin to radicalize thier own..

I am very concerned as I carry a name of jewish origin of the vast amounts of 'anti zionist' material throughout the internet, throughout europe, and throughout the muslim world. As the far left is adopting this propaganda as trueth that it is fair game whether or not it will be the jews or the muslims in the middle east and europe that will suffer horrendously as a result of this.

It is also an extremely worrying sign that muslims seem to be at the very least mildly sympathetic to Al Qaida and 'resistance' against the West. I admire the attempts by peace loving muslims particularlly the poster of the thread on coexistance. And I myself prefer Muslims would take this to be the true meaning of islam and we can togethor end our hate and stop the insanity... But I am not sure if this is where the dice will fall....

I have been going through islamic forums for some time... many times I am told "if you want peace fight against the zionists." where? how? Zionists are simply a people like any other... if one were to expect me not to demonize muslims perhaps we should start by not demonizing anyone...But it seems an endemic to Islamic culture, beliefs in vast conspiracies designed to keep them down to proud are they to admit thier own faults... which makes us different, and makes the west weaker...we do admit our faults and to an excessive degree, to where we lack pride in our heritage and culture, to we doubt our own righteousness in our cause. while muslims will fight any where for any cause so long as muslims are somehow involved... china india europe indonesia afganistan it does not matter..

while we are deeply shamed by our own atrocities and go into guilt fests... Many muslims find it the work of zionists, jews.. to the point that muslims who have never met nor seen a jew in his life would execute a man like daniel pearl simply because he was jewish..and obviously had some kind of link to some evil far reaching zionist conspiracy to control the world..suicide bombings 9-11, all the work the jew.

Muslims must find excuses to why America supports Israel, because we are brainwashed by AIPAC or some thing... but fail to realise we simply do not empathise with people who teach kids to become shaheed...we do not empathise with people who use tv stations to tell thier people to kill themselves and take as many jewish apes and pigs along with them, and we do not empathise with people who murder thier own for power, and act out on the demands of clerics calling for mass murder. Americans were the ones to liberate the Jews from nazi concentration camps christians are also feel religious obligation to support israel as well.. as muslims do palestine... we are diametrically opposed to each other..

that is not to say we oppose a 'free palestine' it just means we are opposed to maniacal palestine. we are opposed to the kind of men and women that would glorify violence and genocide. and had there be a choice there would either be a peaceful prosperious non violent palestine with happy palestinians or no palestinians at all..but we must start by ending the culture of violence in palestine...and by the removing of settlements in westbank... and I hope these recent efforts work...but if not..

we must be ready for the army of islam. Americans seem to be the only ones that are proud enough as a people to fight for thier cause.

I realise with these efforts to understand islam, the power of religion, the power of nationalism. a nation without pride is much weaker. this is the down fall of aethiesm unless it is attached to nationalism, and the down fall of liberal ideology. ultimately I see to paths the world could take, as of now I see us begining to head down the path of peace but all that could change in a heartbeat. And I dont see America as losing as there is not enough pride and religious fervor that can stop a cruise missle fired from 1000 miles away....

Israel is no longer the enemy of Islam. Islam has become its own enemy and soon when U.S. forces pull out of Iraq. A full fledged war between the Sunni forces of Saudi Arabia, UAE, Yemen, Oman, Jordan, Palestine, and Egypt will wage against the Shiite forces of Iran and Azerbaijan. There will be many christrian countries sides between the two forces of their picked winner and their will also be the Jewish country of Israel siding with the Sunnies against the possible annihilation presented by Iran's bigotry.

This is all prophecized.