Does Evilness around the World disprove God?

[aamirsaab]

Skavu, I believe you have confused knowlede with influence - God knowing the outcome does not mean He is influencing it.

As for your psychologists response, here is my rebutal;

Psychologist Response
One objection is that omniscient observation does not result in any form of compulsion. Omniscience actually results in compulsion since it cannot be that God knows that a person does do a particular action and that a person does not do that particular action.

This particular train of thought assumes that God has the abilities of man. In reality His ability is far greater.

requires multiple possibilities and omniscience denies this.

No it doesn't. Definition of omniscience: the state of being omniscient; having infinite knowledge. By itself, infinite knowledge means that the outcome is known - it does not mean that the being with infinite knowledge is creating that outcome.

...God is omniscient, omnipotent, omnibenevolent and ultimately the creator of the universe. The psychologist is of limited power to say the least compared to God. The absolute properties of God ensure that all analogies constructed regarding the issue of Omniscience vs. Free-Will must include those properties. The other problem here is that God is necessarily the creator of the universe and by creating a universe by which God has infallible knowledge of, he instantiates all things into necessities.

This actually backs up what I said two paragraphs up with regards to God's abilitiess - you cannot use human thought process when referring to God's will. It's a different league, one that humans will never be a part of.

 

[Skavau]

Skavu, I believe you have confused knowlede with influence - God knowing the outcome does not mean He is influencing it.

I have never contended such to be the case.

This particular train of thought assumes that God has the abilities of man. In reality His ability is far greater.

No - it considers the position that God has the capacity of omniscience.

No it doesn't. Definition of omniscience: the state of being omniscient; having infinite knowledge. By itself, infinite knowledge means that the outcome is known - it does not mean that the being with infinite knowledge is creating that outcome.

I have not contended such to be the case regarding God forcing anyone.

This actually backs up what I said two paragraphs up with regards to God's abilitiess - you cannot use human thought process when referring to God's will. It's a different league, one that humans will never be a part of.

This is meaningless to me. It just seems like a get out clause.

 

[sevgi]

skavau...

knowing something infinetly has nothing to do with seeing it...God has known it all along..without seeing it...how can u say that it is a fact that he has seen it...we havent lived our lives before...

u dnt have to see something to know about it...

this eradicates anything u have to say on the omniscience of God...

ther is a time when some ppl must let go of their arguments coz their arguments are built on silly 'facts'...uve adapted the meaning of omniscience to fit ur personal agendas..i think it is time to let go.

 

[ranma1/2]

just a side question, is god all knowing in regaurds to itself.

 

[sevgi]

just a side question, is god all knowing in regaurds to itself.

u mean is god omniscient towards himself?

of course...

 

[ranma1/2]

so god can not act different from what it knows?

 

[aamirsaab]

I have never contended such to be the case.

Then please explain to me why your position on this equates to such. You have previously stated that God knowing the outcome denies free-will. I have stated many times that God KNOWING cannot INFLUENCE a Human's outcome therefore DOESN'T INFLUENCE the outcome. Yet each time I bring this up you say the complete opposite.

Therefore logical assumptions lead me to that position where knowledge equates to influence - that's the only reason why I think you would state such argument. Which of course you have now denied. If that is not the case, please clarify your stance.

No - it considers the position that God has the capacity of omniscience.

It also considers that God has limited capability. I previously stated that He does not.

 

[ranma1/2]

it doesnt matter if god can influence it or not.
Once it is predetermined free will is lost.

 

[aamirsaab]

it doesnt matter if god can influence it or not.
Once it is predetermined free will is lost.

By predertermined I'm assuming you are taking the meaning as in laymans terms: influencing the future. Which would make more sense for Skavu's initial argument.

However, if the future is predetermined in the complete sense then it would be meaningless for life to exist. However, life does exist and therefore DOES have a meaning. Hence, the future is not entirely predetermined - as certain actions can be delayed or enlongated. The final outcome, i.e. death, is predetermined in the sense that it will happen. To give an easier example; it is predetermined that it will rain on XYZ day. Whether or not you will get wet (or the extent of the ''wetness'') can easily be influenced by your own actions.

In which case a counter argument (that I am fully aware of is coming my way) would be; but God knows you are going to do that thus you're not influencing your future. The fact is, whether or not God knows that you are going to do something doesn't negate the fact that you will or will not do it - we term this free-will. At the end of the day it is not God turning off your bedroom light-switch, It is you (or your mummy) - you wouldn't know if it is predetermined unless you perform an action and in order to perform an action you must have free will.

 

[Muezzin]

Does Evilness around the World disprove God?

If a book has evil characters that hurt its good characters, does that mean the author is incompetent or doesn't exist?

 

[Md Mashud]

If a book has evil characters that hurt its good characters, does that mean the author is incompetent or doesn't exist?

We have a winner.

 

[Skavau]

If a book has evil characters that hurt its good characters, does that mean the author is incompetent or doesn't exist?

No.

The author sets out to tell a story. God is proclaimed to be omnibenevolent and creates a universe full of suffering.

No relation to the example whatsoever.

Then please explain to me why your position on this equates to such. You have previously stated that God knowing the outcome denies free-will.

Because free-will depends on the ability to do otherwise. If God exists and is omniscient then there is no ability to do otherwise than what God has seen. You cannot make any choices other than what you have been seen to have 'made'.

Free-Will is defined by the ability to choose to do otherwise.

I have stated many times that God KNOWING cannot INFLUENCE a Human's outcome therefore DOESN'T INFLUENCE the outcome.

But when does choice exist then at all? God initiated all states of affairs regarding the universe assuming God exists. He would of began the causal chain.

Other part of the Psychologist Response:

Some may assert that predictions made by psychologists predict human behaviour, but these are flawed on the basis of the analogy being inaccurate to God. God is omniscient, omnipotent, omnibenevolent and ultimately the creator of the universe. The psychologist is of limited power to say the least compared to God. The absolute properties of God ensure that all analogies constructed regarding the issue of Omniscience vs. Free-Will must include those properties. The other problem here is that God is necessarily the creator of the universe and by creating a universe by which God has infallible knowledge of, he instantiates all things into necessities.

It also considers that God has limited capability. I previously stated that He does not.

No. It takes into account the results of omniscience - which is infallible knowledge.

 

[IbnAbdulHakim]

No.

The author sets out to tell a story. God is proclaimed to be omnibenevolent and creates a universe full of suffering.

No relation to the example whatsoever.

God has created what he deemed to be best in his knowledge, he has created people who turn evil and hurt the good, there is a strong relation here to what muezzin spoke about.

Just because God has allowed suffering does not in anyway negate his existence or justice.

No one will ever understand Gods true justice until they establish belief in the day of judgement. Its as simple as that.

 

[aamirsaab]

Because free-will depends on the ability to do otherwise. If God exists and is omniscient then there is no ability to do otherwise than what God has seen. You cannot make any choices other than what you have been seen to have 'made'.

Free-Will is defined by the ability to choose to do otherwise.

You do not know which choice God has forseen until you take it - so until then you have a choice.

But when does choice exist then at all? God initiated all states of affairs regarding the universe assuming God exists. He would of began the causal chain.

My understanding of this is that God knows the outcome for every move we make but since we aren't all-knowing, we have the [perceived] ability to choose - since it is a choice to human beings not to God. If you want, you could call it an illusion of choice - this may make it easier to understand.

 

[syilla]

Depends on the definition of evilness...

As in Islam, even you're happy and have alot of money but if you are boastful, arrogant and won't share the money with the poor....that is also an evilness.

And if you're happy and beautiful but arrogant and showing off...that is also an evilness.

And if you poor but contented humble and helping out others are not evil according to Islam...

And if mishap happened but you're still grateful and do the best of what you have...that is not evilness according to Islam.

 

[Skavau]

God has created what he deemed to be best in his knowledge, he has created people who turn evil and hurt the good, there is a strong relation here to what muezzin spoke about.

So why has God done such? Why is it necessary to create people who would turn evil and hurt the good?

And how is that supporting free-will if they would always turn evil and hurt the good?

Just because God has allowed suffering does not in anyway negate his existence or justice.

It does if God is asserted to omniscient and omnibenevolent.

You do not know which choice God has forseen until you take it - so until then you have a choice.

That would only be an illusion of free-will.

My understanding of this is that God knows the outcome for every move we make but since we aren't all-knowing, we have the [perceived] ability to choose - since it is a choice to human beings not to God. If you want, you could call it an illusion of choice - this may make it easier to understand.

An Illusion of choice is not choice.

 

[asadxyz]

So why has God done such? Why is it necessary to create people who would turn evil and hurt the good?

.

Only an atheist can produce such "PEARL OF WISDOM".To get the answer for such queries you should answer the following question first.
Why do you have only two eyes ?? Why not four eyes, two on your front and two on your back ??
If you can answer this questions many Questions about God will be solved.

 

[Trumble]

Perhaps you would care to tell us the answer, and then explain how it even vaguely relates to the original question?

 

[asadxyz]

Perhaps you would care to tell us the answer, and then explain how it even vaguely relates to the original question?

Another one of the tactics of the Atheist.
I have asked you the question and it is your repsonsibility to reply to it.

 

[Trumble]

Asking you to stop waffling and get to your point is hardly a 'tactic', atheistic or otherwise.

I have some ideas as to why we might have two eyes rather than four but as they do not involve God and do involve biology and evolution (on which I am not an expert) for sake of argument lets just assume I don't know the answer?

So with that out of the way perhaps could you tell us? And then relate it to why, for example, there are mass murdering psychopaths in the world, why so many children still starve to death because weather or war destroys the crops, and why people have to suffer excrutiating agony for an extended period of time while dying from some forms of cancer? And how you believe these things to be compatable with the existence of an omniscient, omni-benevolent God?